Over size cast projectiles

[BIG BEAR]

Gave a buddy a box full of old .22-250 brass. buddy came back with 200 cast projectiles. lead gas checked. mike out at .311 to .312. could these be fired in my .30-06.? my cast loads at present are 180 gr. with 47 gr. h4350. good for 2-2 1/2 " at 100yds. would like to make use of these if possible. the gas checks mike out at.309-.310" and that is my concern. thanks for any input GLENN

[BowHunter252]

So you are saying he filled the 22-250 cases with lead and you want to shoot those out of your 06?

[lunicy]

IMHO Thats a bit large for a .30-06 Most .30-06 would shoot well with something in the range of .309. The .311 would be better for an AK or SKS.

You wouldn't know for sure unless you slug your barrel.

You could size the .311's down to .309 then load 'em. (I've done it)

[sheepdog]

Your buddy probably used projectiles for 7.62x54r. Problem is they really aren't .308 but .311.

Its more commonly done then people think cause many go "30-06 is 762 so I'll pull projectiles from this cheap 54r for homemade black tips" or more innocently they try to use the same casting mold for 54r as 06. Will it go kaboom? Maybe. Will it eat your 06 up? For sure.

[w30wcf]

BIG BEAR,

I shoot .311-.312" diameter bullets in my .30-30's (.309" groove) all the time with very good success.

I would suggest that you load a sized, empty, case and see if it will chamber ok. If it does, if it were me, I would load some up and shoot them.....providing the alloy is strong enough for the velocity you're using.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[runfiverun]

in the older 0-6's like the 03's if you didn't size them to 311 or so they wouldn't shoot worth a pi**.
most all of my 308 boolits are sized to 310 [30-30 308 30-06]
if they are a bit .001 over sized your pressures might go up a whole 300 psi.

[mpmarty]

I've got a Saiga AK in 7.62 Nato and a new Savage 11F? in .308 and they both shoot better with .311 / .312 cast than with smaller bullets. I load these with Large Pistol primers and various charges of BLC2, 2400 and Varget in all cases the larger the bullet the smaller the group. I use large pistol primers to make pressure easier to detect as the softer cup flattens at lower pressure than the harder rifle primers, I believe the ignition is "softer" and the pressure curve gentler, I have no problem igniting the BLC2 with these either.

[BIG BEAR]

Thanks for the advice. will try a few and see how it goes. to BOWHUNTER, keep the lid on your DOE SENT bottle. Its having an adverse effect on your common sence( you were kidding,Right???)

[Crass Whackwords]

My 30-06's have preferred 0.314" bullets.

The SAAMI chamber is sloppy in the neck area, allowing bullets as large as 0.316" to chamber before you run out of neck clearance.

[GrizzLeeBear]

My 30-06's have preferred 0.314" bullets.

The SAAMI chamber is sloppy in the neck area, allowing bullets as large as 0.316" to chamber before you run out of neck clearance.

Goes to show you, not all 30-06's are the same. My Rem. 700 has a .308 bore and will not chamber a boolit larger than .309 - .310.

Big Bear, you should slug your bore to determine exactly what your bore dia. is. Its easy to do, do a search for "slugging", etc. There have been a number of good threads on how to do it.
Also, take an unsized case that has been fired in your rifle. Try to slip one of the boolits into the neck by hand. If you can slide it in with little or no resistance, the neck of the chamber has enough clearance to "let go" of that size boolit when fired. Then load a dummy round (no powder or primer) and see if it will chamber. In my '06, if I try to chamber a round bigger than .310 the throat will heavily engrave or push the boolit deeper into the case. I size to .309 and all is well.

[Char-Gar]

Hoo--boy!! How many times are we going to have to reinvent the wheel on this board? Now hear this! As long as the bullet is .001 larger than barrel groove diameter, barrel groove diamter is not the key consideration in choosing the sizing diamter of the bullet.

The barrel throat is the dimension that deserves careful attention. A cast bullet should be as close to an exact fit to the throat as possible. This way, the bullet will enter the barrel straight, if everything else in order, which it seldom is. A dead straight chamber, and a bolt face square with the chamber, and ammo that fits the chamber and a bullet enters the barrel straight are all key elements in rifle accuracy.

What happens if the chamber neck is too small to allow rounds with the proper throat size bullet to chamber? You neck turn the case neck to reduce it's thickness and thusly allow the proper bullet to be used.

This advise to "slug your barrel and size bullets a certain size larger" is a very superfical at best understanding cast bullet fit to barrel.

How do you determine throat diameter? A chamber cast or a throat slug.

Please note we addressed nothing of the fit between the bullet nose and the lands.

I am sorry if I come accross rather harsh, but this board is starting to read like every other internet board and not the fount of advanced information it once was.

[Crass Whackwords]

Goes to show you, not all 30-06's are the same. My Rem. 700 has a .308 bore and will not chamber a boolit larger than .309 - .310..

Your Rem 700 has a SAAMI chamber and will indeed chamber a 0.314" bullet, or even larger, but the 0.314" portion probably will not fit in the throat. Throats are tapered and generally 0.311" or smaller at the big end.

[Crass Whackwords]

Goes to show you, not all 30-06's are the same. My Rem. 700 has a .308 bore and will not chamber a boolit larger than .309 - .310..

Your Rem 700 has a SAAMI chamber and will indeed chamber a 0.314" bullet, or even larger, but the 0.314" portion probably will not fit in the throat. Throats are tapered and generally 0.311" or smaller at the big end.

I have shot 1000's of 0.314" bullets in two different Rem 700 barrels.

[303Guy]

I thought it was a done deal that everyone shoots 311 cast bullets out a 308! Oh well, live and learn.

I am using a tapered bullet that is actually bigger than the throat by just a tad. It fits the throat quite closely, with the nose section entering the rifling. I have not tested this bullet to any great degree but initial results are at least encouraging.

Three shots does not mean much but there were four others that were pretty close to the same POI.

[303Guy]

I've got a Saiga AK in 7.62 Nato and a new Savage 11F? in .308 and they both shoot better with .311 / .312 cast than with smaller bullets. I load these with Large Pistol primers and various charges of BLC2, 2400 and Varget in all cases the larger the bullet the smaller the group. I use large pistol primers to make pressure easier to detect as the softer cup flattens at lower pressure than the harder rifle primers, I believe the ignition is "softer" and the pressure curve gentler, I have no problem igniting the BLC2 with these either.

Might I ask what your loads are? I am trying 220gr and 245gr bullets in my 303 Brit and at the moment have used only Varget/AR2208. (The results are above).

[BIG BEAR]

Hoo--boy!! How many times are we going to have to reinvent the wheel on this board? Now hear this! As long as the bullet is .001 larger than barrel groove diameter, barrel groove diamter is not the key consideration in choosing the sizing diamter of the bullet.

The barrel throat is the dimension that deserves careful attention. A cast bullet should be as close to an exact fit to the throat as possible. This way, the bullet will enter the barrel straight, if everything else in order, which it seldom is. A dead straight chamber, and a bolt face square with the chamber, and ammo that fits the chamber and a bullet enters the barrel straight are all key elements in rifle accuracy.

What happens if the chamber neck is too small to allow rounds with the proper throat size bullet to chamber? You neck turn the case neck to reduce it's thickness and thusly allow the proper bullet to be used.

This advise to "slug your barrel and size bullets a certain size larger" is a very superfical at best understanding cast bullet fit to barrel.

How do you determine throat diameter? A chamber cast or a throat slug.

Please note we addressed nothing of the fit between the bullet nose and the lands.

I am sorry if I come accross rather harsh, but this board is starting to read like every other internet board and not the fount of advanced information it once was.

Well,I have a daughter that lives in south TEXAS, so i will cut you some slack. My question arose from a box of 200 gas checked .311-.312 cast projectiles that presented itself to me. not being on cast boolets that long, i have not come across this question before. MABE, just mabe,. me and the other dummies that gave me some advice from their experiences with oversize c.bs should look for a site that caters to folks with such foolish questions???Ah, GOD BLESS TEXAS and you too. Cheers BIG BEAR

[Crass Whackwords]

BIG BEAR, I apologize if we seem to have hijacked your thread. The short answer to your question is that no harm will come from shooting oversize cast bullets as long as they chamber easily.

You unintentionally raised the question of "what is the optimal diameter for a cast bullet?" It is a very good question. Ultimately, the only sure way to know is to experiment with different diameters and let the gun tell you what it likes, or if it even cares.

The barrel throat is the dimension that deserves careful attention. A cast bullet should be as close to an exact fit to the throat as possible. .

That is conventional wisdom. It many cases it is a good rule.

The SAAMI 30-06 throat is tapered. What then ?

Some cartridges (348, 45/70, 32-20) have no throat. What then ?

Many handgun cartridges, when chambered for rifles or Contenders, have an oversize funnel in place of a throat. What then ?

Some thoats are simply HUGE, i.e., some dangerous game calibers, deliberately made sloppy so the cartridge will chamber reliably when an elephant is charging. What then ?

What about the way the bullet fits in the chamber neck area ? What if the bullet is wobbling around in the neck area (if the case neck expands while the bullet is still inside the neck)? What if gas is blowing by the bullet in the neck area ? The SAAMI 30-06 has a HUGE chamber neck, allowing those 0.314" bullets to chamber easily and needing a 0.317" bullet to create a benchrest-quality fit. That may be why my 06's showed a preference for the oversize bullets.

[303Guy]

You unintentionally raised the question of "what is the optimal diameter for a cast bullet?" It is a very good question.

BIG BEAR, a thread is like a conversation - in fact, it is a conversation and it evolves! Like the above quote. But now this one;

The SAAMI 30-06 throat is tapered.

A while back on another forum, the discussion was around inherent accuracy and it was being said that the 308 was more 'inherently' accurate than the 30-06. Now I have just found out why - it's the SAAMI spec! (Which I suspected and postulated but got shot down for).

But to answer your original question, by all means shoot those 'oversize' bullets if they wil chamber. Apparently, someone did some tests with oversize bullets and found that they did not cause much pressure changes. On the other hand there is a current thread somewhere about an 'overloaded' high pressure cartridge, probably too long, crimped heavily, difficult chambering, probable neck protruding into the throat, which blew up, injuring a few people! (Can that happen with a cast bullet? I wouldn't expect so - lower pressure loads, softer bullet?)

I started out life with a Lee bullet mould for my 303 Brit. It was a bore riding design but the nose section was smaller than my rifle bore and they shot crap. But those same 311 bullets shot OK in a friends 308.

[Char-Gar]

Big Bear

1. I repeat, that the advise was superficial and I assumed you were interested a little more depth. Sorry, If I misread your intention and you only wanted superficial advise.

2. This board has grown by leaps and bounds and many of the new folks don't come with a depth knowledge that comes from experience. They only know what they read elswhere and assume it to be true. This bord has never been a place where myth, legend and old wives tales about cast bullets were allowed to survive. There is enough of that in the pulp gun rags and other boards.

3. I have often been accused of giving a $5.00 answer to a 50 cent question. I plead guilty as charged.

4. I will also plead guilty to missing the way this board once was. It was much smaller and had a bunch of folks who were truly hard core cast bullet folks. I am glad to see so many folks interested in cast bullets, but the expertise level has been greatly watered down. Most of the old hands have droped out. At time, I get very frustrated, and my reply came out of that frustration. However, I won't go away, because of the years and volumns of information other have deposited here. Few of the newer folks, understand or respect the history of this board.

5. I am truly sorry, if I hurt your feelings, but I do have a habit of direct speech. That does not always serve me well. In spite of my acerbic comments, I was only trying to be of help and ratched up the information level a notch or two. I will try and mind my manners and remember that my Grandfather taught me... "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vineger."

2. Where in South Texas does your daughter live and do you have a photo?