Hmmm
I can only guess from where I sit.
With BP as the fuel the .458 bullets should expand and seal, but you never know and you are getting leading from something?????
Chill Wills
just make sure the case will rechamber ok before you go ahead - your boolits will likely fall in .
I have 25 yr old RCBS dies - the resize die brings internal neck size down to .452, expander button gets it back to .4575 (I dont use it until I have to to get the rounds to chamber)
Are you using a decent overpowder wad?
Last edited by indian joe; 04-29-2021 at 11:23 PM.
IJ, did your modification of that Lee mold make it a solid base?
I measured my Lyman M expander mandrel. The main portion before the mouth flare is 0.456. The mouth flaring portion is 0.460 and I did have it adjusted to use the entire length of the flaring bit.
So, yes there's a bit of neck tension there.
I'm using a cereal box was I cut with BACOs .462 hammer punch. It makes a nice tight fit in the case. You think I ought to try an hdpe wad cut from a milk jug? Not sure why the wad type would promote or prevent it
Looking in the barrel with my borescope, I can't imagine anything I'm seeing in there would cause the leading I'm getting.
I think I've got enough lube. In the last few sessions, I've had a good grease star on the muzzle and a bit of lube splatter on the target at 50 yds.
I'll try a tougher and thicker wad. I'll also try cutting my 4227 charge in half, or eliminating it and seeing how the straight black does. I may revisit the MBC bullets (.459 and less leading) with a thicker tougher wad too.
Thanks for the ideas!
Chill Wills
I'm hoping I can get some more loaded this week for the range. Been busy working on the house and playing with lead. I got two 5gal buckets of wheel weights for a total of $20. It's probably yielded about 50lbs lead ingots. I've been learning how to clean/flux and pour those and have been now been looking for molds. I really like IJs idea of grinding the HB cone off the Lee mold and giving it a wider meplat and the potential for casting 330gr bullets just by switching out the base plug!
But there is absolutely none of these molds to be found on the web, unless you want to pay 3 times the MSRP on eBay. It's nuts.
I also like the Lyman 457193 design but it's a bit more pricey and from what I've read it seems the iron molds require more maintenance than the aluminum type. Is that right?
Aluminium - Brass - Iron - all make good boolits - all got their own plus and minus - learn by doing - biggest problem with LEE molds in the bigger sizes is they get overheated easy - that mold I use has a detached base plug that I manipulate manually, just slows me down enough the mold stays nice temperature.
yeah iron needs looking after, so you dont let em go rusty between sessions, then a little clean out before the next use - no big deal though and they less sensitive to damage than the others -
I like aluminium because I am cheap and have got used to using them but have thought seriously about getting brass molds (or even iron) cut to copy those boolits I showed . (proly wont happen but its a good plan)
Yea I was really drawn to the Lee because I like their affordability despite how high of quality ammo you can load with their equipment, and the fact that the mold has the sprue plate on top... That would help prevent buggered up bases due to cutting the sprue to early or late.
I cut some milk jug hdpe wads and they're between 0.020 and 0.025.
You think I should do 2 of them to make 0.045 instead of just 1?
give it a go - I reckon a single wad be better tho ----- I used a 10 litre drinking water container that came from the supermarket - a bit of messing round to cut it but they come out about 45thou - a mate made me a wad punch for my big press - I made a new plunger for it till I could get .462 wads - but a hammer and punch on a decent hardwood block works fine and not much slower.
You'll get this figured - I put a fair bit of work into getting my 45/75 shooting good but then I bought the Chiappa and nailed it with the first ten shots - main difference was been there done this already .........
You are getting good advice here.
You only need one good mold. At least to start. One good one is worth three bad ones that you fight with to get usable bullets. Pay once-cry once.
On wads. Plenty of ammo was made and shot with no wad. Just bullet on the top of powder. Works fine. I like and load wads because I can easily. Only in the match rifle loads can I detect the difference in what I use. LDPE wads are my go to match wad. I can't imagine me seeing the difference in any of them shooting my 1886 offhand and fun shooting. But yes, in a match singleshot rifle loaded for Creedmoor or BPCR silhouette LDPE wads are my choice.
In your case, for now, a free Cheerios box will make a few thousand very good wads. I use them and they work for that kind of shooting.
Thoughts on alloy, ... straight Clip on WW works - okay.
Straight clip WW mixed with Pb somewhere around 50/50 and one to two percent tin added will be even better when using black power as fuel. Also, it performs well on game too. It is a good mix.
Just some ideas...
Keep having fun.
Chill Wills
Agreed! Thank you guys for all the helpful information. I really appreciate it. I'm having a load of fun learning. A guy basically has to throw out 75% of what he knows about loading smokeless bottleneck jacketed rounds!
Is your opinion that the Lee molds are a bit too much of a gamble to be able to shoot bullets as they're cast without sizing? That is my plan... Don't want to mess with or buy a sizer. I also want to make sure I get what I want, so I've got to figure that out.
I loaded some up last night. I used the 457193 bullets and measured again. I apparently measured a couple off bullets or something last time, because I got 0.460 on them this time around. I used a single 0.025 milk jug hdpe wad in them to see what happens there, and also reduced the charge to 4gr 4227 and made up that difference with BP at 68gr.
Chill
I agree with all of this - from whats been told so far I would expect those loads to work for me !
with a few caveats
(The leading has me puzzled)
1) lube - OP sez evidence of plenty - star at the muzzle - target splatter - so thats out
2) boolit size - I know they sposed to slug up but I never had any luck with skinny boolits, always shot em fat, (unsized a lot of the time) , softish alloy = 50/50 WW + Pb works
3) I wonder is he winding the handle toooo fast ? Rip 5 shots through it, wait 30 seconds, grab the barrel !!!!!!!! got it!
If ya get em hot the crud goes hard and they will lead up - usually at the front end ??
That there is something I thought about and forgot to ask! I always do try to keep my barrel cool or no more than a touch warm. How warm does the barrel have to be for it to increase the likelihood of leading?
The barrel on this gun is real heavy, so I can shoot five shots a couple minutes apart each when it's about 70° outside without the barrel getting more than warm feeling.
The first few times I shot this gun I did a great job of keeping the barrel pretty close to ambient temperature between shots. Last week when I went out, I was a little rushed for time so I let it get a little warmer than I like, but it was still only warm.
The other thought I had today was on neck tension and bullet size and alloy. I was reading that there's potential for resizing the bullet with too much neck tension and a soft alloy. I had less leading with the hard bullets that I first used with black powder. Since my neck expanding mandrel measured 0.456, since there's going to be some spring back after expanding, I might be jamming that soft-ish alloy 0.460 bullet into a 0.455 case neck. Do you think that amount of neck tension can resize that bullet to the point where it would give me a poor seal in the bore?
the ones I loaded last night were in the last of my Virgin brass, so next time I will load them into unsized cases that have only had the mouth flared. We'll see if that makes much of a difference in anything. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I'll load up five of them into my once fired brass without sizing to shoot this week. If if I can shoot five and pass a patch through the barrel without seeing lead slivers on it, I'll go home and pull those other bullets that I loaded.
Last edited by HighUintas; 05-04-2021 at 07:47 PM.
I doubt You are shooting fast enough nor enough shots to heat the barrel to the point of leading. In summer under direct sun the barrel sure will heat to that point with a string of 15 or more. I could be wrong.
In general, if the barrel is cool enough you can hold the rifle by the barrel, you are Okay.
I don't think neck tension is the major issue here but in general, a larger expander / flare plug would help. .457" would be atleast good. .458 or if all your bullet were 0.460"+ a 0.459" expander would be fine. The two diamater type are best. They are the kind Buffalo Arms makes and sells. Basically a (example) 0.458" cylinder on the lower part of the expander with a 0.463" cylinder on the upper part of the expander with a small taper connecting the two. So no flare.
You can just replace the Lyman part with the new expander.
Below is a picture of the ones I make. The two diameters are too small to even see in the picture.
Chill Wills
With BP, under size bullets bump up well. The best example of that is the bore diameter paper patch bullets that bump up and shoot match accurate groups. However, "never" and "always" can get me in trouble. I would not want to go out on a limb and say the smaller bullets are not the cause of the leading.
Chill Wills
Agree again
if you can hold it (the barrel) comfortably its fine
I like your expander, same as I made for mine ....but I do shoot unsized if they will chamber ok - still need to use the little taper part to turn the crimp out a touch so boolits will seat without shaving .
I was looking at those expanders today thinking about buying one. But, i kind of thought I should see what diameter bullet is going to work best in my gun before.
Yup, if the neck tension wouldn't be the likely culprit and the wad wouldn't make that big a difference at BP pressure, I'm scratching my head a bit too.
I guess I'll keep checking boxes til I figure it out!
I didn't get to load any more cartridge for tomorrow, but my unsized cases will chamber just fine so I'll give that a shot next time.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |