New Member and new 1886 45-90 help

[veeman]

That's minute of deer in any woods! Great shooting! As for the cases, I would shlosh them around in warm soapy water, dry them off, then tumble clean for an hour. I then size and de-prime, then I wet tumble with stainless steel pins for that new look. But that's me, I like shiny brass

[HighUintas]

That's minute of deer in any woods! Great shooting! As for the cases, I would shlosh them around in warm soapy water, dry them off, then tumble clean for an hour. I then size and de-prime, then I wet tumble with stainless steel pins for that new look. But that's me, I like shiny brass

Thanks! I took some hot soapy water with me to the range, deprimed and tossed them in The jug as I was shooting. Then when I got home I rinsed them, and refilled with a little more soap and some vinegar, and let that sit for about 30 minutes, then rinsed them out. I think they look pretty good as is, and I don't have a tumblr. I'm never done anything more to my smokeless cases than just give the next a light brushing. But with the black powder, I was a little worried about any leftover stuff inside the case then corroding it. So, I haven't been able to find any information on whether or not tumbling or sonicating and making sure every bit of the stuff inside the case is gone.

Also, there was hardly any lead when I got home. All I could see was maybe a tiny bit in the corner of the grooves in some spots. Before my last two shots at the range, I put a couple patches down the bore to see if there was any lead and a few slivers came out. Then the next two shot pretty well again.

[Castaway]

While at the bench, I deprime the case and put it in water with a couple drops of Dawn. The brass will come out relatively clean and on occasion I’ve loaded it then, but I'm loading for a single shot and don’t use dies. I use vinegar in my sonic cleaner but if too strong or too long it can leach copper from the brass. Most times it goes in a sonic cleaner and comes out clean. While I use Ballistol, I don’t panic if I forget it. Water and a tight flannel patch works just as well. No soap needed. Even after you clean the barrel, you’re still going to get some grey color on your patch. Important part is to get your barrel dry. Alcohol on a patch will help dry the barrel if you’re concerned. A couple dry patches and oil is all that’s needed. Sometimes I use jojoba oil from Trader Joe’s and have even put bullet lube on the patch and used that in lieu of oil. So many ways and everyone is convinced theirs is the best. Some want you to believe you must add 2 bat wings and the eye of a newt, but there are only three things that you must do. Clean, dry, lube. You’ll figure it out and develop your own ritual

[Chill Wills]

Now that I have to clean the BP from my bore and cases, two questions:

For the cases, is a tumbler or sonic cleaner really necessary? Will a soak in soapy water with vinegar and then a brushing do the trick?

For the bore, how about soapy water on patches then dry patch then a coat of oil? I haven't been able to find any ballistol locally, so I can't do the 1:10 ballistol water mix I've seen recommended.

Here's a picture of my shooting for today. 15 rounds. One of the flyers is a fowler, one of the other terrible flyers is just a bad pulled shot, and some of the others that widen out the group were later in the session, and I think there was a little bit of leading starting. I'm not sure if this is due to the hardness of the bullet, or the way some of my rounds were loaded. The cartridges later in the session definitely shaved bits of the lead off when seating the bullet, so I'm wondering if the shade lead inside the case got deposited in the bore. Don't know, but we'll see how much leading is in the barrel when I clean it out.
And yes these shots were at 50 yards. Might be a whole lot better if I wasn't using a regular buckhornAttachment 281097

Nice! BP is the best and I did not guess you were going to get around to it so soon. Well done!

[HighUintas]

Making some progress. I loaded up the same load a bit ago and just got around to shooting it today. Made sure to do a better job of seating to prevent shaving lead off to see if the bit of leading last time was due to that or not. I still got a bit of leading this time, but not much and mainly near the throat. Maybe the bullet is a tad hard even for a duplex load but I wouldn't think so.

This is my first 7 shots at 50yd including a fouler. I wiped after and saw a few lead slivers.


Then it opened up on the last few. Partially leading and probably also my aiming with irons skilss


I'll have to get some high quality 457193 bullets loaded that chill Wills graciously sent me. I'm eager to see how they do. Making some progress!

Now.... I'm already collecting and sorting wheel weights! Can't find any molds available anywhere though. Not that I have the money for one right now. Hopefully by the time I do they're available again.

[Tar Heel]

I like shooting mine with Holy Black and the 330gr Gould Express bullet from Lyman. You may be surprised at the thumping you will get on the back end of that rifle.

[Chill Wills]

Making some progress. I loaded up the same load a bit ago and just got around to shooting it today. Made sure to do a better job of seating to prevent shaving lead off to see if the bit of leading last time was due to that or not. I still got a bit of leading this time, but not much and mainly near the throat. Maybe the bullet is a tad hard even for a duplex load but I wouldn't think so.

This is my first 7 shots at 50yd including a fouler. I wiped after and saw a few lead slivers.

That first group is really good. What was the fuel? BP again? If not controling the fouling with BP the accuracy can drop off after a number of shots. There are many easy ways to do this. With a 1886, a simple blow tube can keep you shooting unlimited shots. A blow tube is as easy as a trip to the hardware store - clear plastic tube on a rill of the correct size. Buy a foot - maybe a dollar. A few breaths onto the barrel from the breach end keeps you going.

[HighUintas]

That first group is really good. What was the fuel? BP again? If not controling the fouling with BP the accuracy can drop off after a number of shots. There are many easy ways to do this. With a 1886, a simple blow tube can keep you shooting unlimited shots. A blow tube is as easy as a trip to the hardware store - clear plastic tube on a rill of the correct size. Buy a foot - maybe a dollar. A few breaths onto the barrel from the breach end keeps you going.

Yup, it's BP but a duplex of 7gr 4227 and 65gr OE 2f.

I am loading that to prevent having to wipe or use a blow tube! When looking down the barrel after 7 shots, I didn't see any junk, so that's good right?

I was going to ask you if the bullets you sent would be hard enough for that load.

[Chill Wills]

Yes, they should work well with your load, they have BP lube and all. I hope they do.

[OverMax]

Need to be more detailed.

[ogre]

Haha I see there's some strong opinions on black powder in both directions! Well here's my experience from today!

I loaded up 20 rounds, shot at 100 yd, hit the 8x11 paper twice haha.

What a joyful and painful experience that was! I'll be buying myself a shoulder pad very soon.

Anyway, I ended up finding that I had a crap load of lead, or what I think is a lot of lead, in my barrel. I am thinking that's likely why the accuracy was so terrible. I was hoping y'all could shed some light on the leadding issue. First of all, how much lead is too much lead?

41.3-42.5gr 5744, 4 rounds each, 0.3gr apart
Jamison brass, virgin, 2.396", sized with 45-70FL die, no expander, expanded neck with the Lyman neck expander, die, seated to crimp groove, medium crimp with Lee FCD
MBC buffalo #1 405gr, .459", they say it's 18bhn... It's the 92/6/2 alloy
Fed 210 primer

I didn't have a chrono on it.

No picture of groups, cause they weren't groups!! Haha

Nearly all of the lead is near the muzzle and it seems like there's a lot.

Is the bullet too hard/soft for that powder and charge? Anything obvious I have done wrong or should change/try?

I understand why you would want a shoulder pad for the crescent buttplate of your fine rifle is designed to be shot off of the upper arm and not off of the shoulder.

I stay away from vinegar when it comes to cleaning brass cases as the vinegar attacks the zinc in the alloy and may weaken the cases over time.

The original 45-90 load for the 1886 was a black powder express load using a 300 gr. bullet. Perhaps this load would work for you. Nice rifle by the way.

[HighUintas]

Need to be more detailed.

More Detailed on?

[HighUintas]

I understand why you would want a shoulder pad for the crescent buttplate of your fine rifle is designed to be shot off of the upper arm and not off of the shoulder.

I stay away from vinegar when it comes to cleaning brass cases as the vinegar attacks the zinc in the alloy and may weaken the cases over time.

The original 45-90 load for the 1886 was a black powder express load using a 300 gr. bullet. Perhaps this load would work for you. Nice rifle by the way.

Yes I realize their supposed to be out on the upper arm... I still call it shoulder. I'm kind of a scrawny guy, so 20 rounds off the bench will make my arm hurt.

I'll avoid using the vinegar next time!

[HighUintas]

I loaded some of nice Lyman 457193 last night and I was having trouble preventing shaving or rolling lead up off the bullet when seating.

I use the Lyman M die for flaring the mouth, give it a slight chamfer, start the bullet straight by hand first, then seat.

Any ideas on preventing this?

Also, will those rounds that shaved lead be more likely to lead the barrel? I've got those set aside so I can monitor the barrel after sending them downrange.

[Chill Wills]

Have you tried screwing the M die a little farther down into the press to flair the brass more? That should get you starting bullets into the cases easier and no shaving. I make my so called M dies or expander die inserts one or two thousandths smaller than the bullet diameter. I am not sure what the M die you have measures. It is probably good.

Soft BPCR bullets work well with little grip on the bullet (0.001" or so) and then the bullet does not get squeezed down or out of shape either. Bullet alloy in the 9 to 12 BHN range is common for BPCR bullets and standard expanders, which are much smaller, can put the big crush on them.

[HighUintas]

Have you tried screwing the M die a little farther down into the press to flair the brass more? That should get you starting bullets into the cases easier and no shaving. I make my so called M dies or expander die inserts one or two thousandths smaller than the bullet diameter. I am not sure what the M die you have measures. It is probably good.

Soft BPCR bullets work well with little grip on the bullet (0.001" or so) and then the bullet does not get squeezed down or out of shape either. Bullet alloy in the 9 to 12 BHN range is common for BPCR bullets and standard expanders, which are much smaller, can put the big crush on them.

The M die I have is the one that came with my 3die set for 45-70. I'll have to pull it out and measure it and also try screwing it down a bit more. I thought it was flared plenty because I could get the bullet started by hand to the bottom of the first line groove, but maybe it wasn't.

[indian joe]

The M die I have is the one that came with my 3die set for 45-70. I'll have to pull it out and measure it and also try screwing it down a bit more. I thought it was flared plenty because I could get the bullet started by hand to the bottom of the first line groove, but maybe it wasn't.

This is proly no help but for mine if the brass will chamber I dont even neck size it - just a little flare and reload it
My 45/75 (1876 Uberti) is pretty neat in the neck area + brass formed from 348 W is thicker in the neck so I made a little outside swage die to just tidy things up after loading (might be a bit of a ridge from crimping a tad too hard or a slight bulge near the shoulder - 1 thousandth inch can make the difference between chambering slick or a no go)

I have a .464 size die to settle the lube properly in the grooves OR I use my size die that gives sized boolits at .4605

45/70 Chiappa gets the same treatment (no resizing) except it dont need the swage die
Boolits are pretty soft (between 2B and 3B pencil)
I started out using Winchester hand tools to reload in the 1960's, none of those I saw were capable of resizing brass - the old timers didnt do it - and worked fine for blackpowder. I want my reloads to go in the chamber easy and I check that - but the less messing with the brass to get there the better I reckon. Un necessary sizing operations are just that - un necessary I reckon

edit = correction to size die numbers

[HighUintas]

This is proly no help but for mine if the brass will chamber I dont even neck size it - just a little flare and reload it
My 45/75 (1876 Uberti) is pretty neat in the neck area + brass formed from 348 W is thicker in the neck so I made a little outside swage die to just tidy things up after loading (might be a bit of a ridge from crimping a tad too hard or a slight bulge near the shoulder - 1 thousandth inch can make the difference between chambering slick or a no go)
I resize to .462 mainly to settle the lube properly in the grooves
45/70 Chiappa gets the same treatment (no resizing) except it dont need the swage die
Boolits are pretty soft (between 2B and 3B pencil)
I started out using Winchester hand tools to reload in the 1960's, none of those I saw were capable of resizing brass - the old timers didnt do it - and worked fine for blackpowder. I want my reloads to go in the chamber easy and I check that - but the less messing with the brass to get there the better I reckon. Un necessary sizing operations are just that - un necessary I reckon

I like what you're saying. I'll take some of my unsized brass today, flare it, and see how a bullet fits in there

[HighUintas]

I tried out the Lyman 457193 bullets today and still got leading, more than the previous outing with the MBC bullets.

The lead was pretty well dispersed through the barrel. Accuracy wasn't great. The first few shots were about 4" group, then it opened to 6-8".

I measured the bullets prior to loading and they were about 0.458.

So hmm.

[indian joe]

I tried out the Lyman 457193 bullets today and still got leading, more than the previous outing with the MBC bullets.

The lead was pretty well dispersed through the barrel. Accuracy wasn't great. The first few shots were about 4" group, then it opened to 6-8".

I measured the bullets prior to loading and they were about 0.458.

So hmm.

I reckon your boolits are too skinny and you are getting gas cutting causing the leading
my sized boolits are .4605 and I can shoot unsized (.462?) quite ok - load is blackpowder and a 45 thou HDPE (High Density Poly Ethylene) overpowder wad - those (wads) are .462 diameter so they are a neat squeeze fit so they seal .

I shoot straight blackpowder in my '76 45/75 and a Duplex (7grain 4227 + blackpowder) in my '86 45/70
dont have leading problem with either rifle unless I start messing with boolits that dont have enough lube to start with



these are what I shoot in the lever rifles, both come from the LEE 459-405-HB mold, they drop at .462-.463 diameter. I modded it by shaving the nose down Flat and that enlarged the meplat some then I clipped the HB tit off the base plug so I can use a wad under it - came back neat at 405 grain - the shorter one I just turned a brass base plug so It lost the bottom driver band and one lube groove. that one is 335 grain. I like the profile, good lube grooves - they shoot good out to 300yards, ideal Blackpowder boolits for a 45 repeater.