severe leading on first cast boolits

[guy_with_boolits]

Don't give up on that SWC "just yet"

Believe it or not, try increasing the OAL a tad to get the nose to strike
the chamber top/tip over/straighten out a skosh quicker.

As long as the cartridge rim stays at/below the barrel hood when dropped in, you should be Good2Go.

thats the thing...at 1.18" the case bottom is flush with the barrel hood..and at that length I think I probably still have these problems

however technically, I loaded them to 1.164"...so maybe the extra .016" will fix it..I'll try it since I have about 100 boolits now read to load

but I went and bought a MP-452-200 mold so hopefully that will solve all my issues no matter what when it gets here in about a week

[243winxb]

Set col using case head to shoulder measurement. The case rim diameter cant be larger the the opening on the bolt face.

Is the WC bullets nose getting deformed on chambering, when nose hits feed ramp? If yes, alloy is to soft. Add linotype.

If the round makes it into the chamber, but action is open a tiny bit. Shorten col and/or apply more taper crimp.

[guy_with_boolits]

Set col using case head to shoulder measurement. The case rim diameter cant be larger the the opening on the bolt face.

Is the WC bullets nose getting deformed on chambering, when nose hits feed ramp? If yes, alloy is to soft. Add linotype.

good info thanks

yes the nose radius is just gone..bunch of flat spots

I'll check the rim diameter. Maybe the rounds are so short they are getting bounced around and missing their chance to mate with the extractor properly

I am forced into a very narrow window of COAL. 1.18" is the max that keeps the case end flush with the barrel hood. any longer and it protrouds and stops rotating freely

[243winxb]

The 45 acp head spaces on the case mouth. The case head should be at the same place in barrel , using an empty sized brass or a loaded round. This is with the barrel out of tne gun.

[mehavey]

We know that.
But the empty case sits slightly below the hood at it stands now.

The OP might yet want to take advantage of the extra space to see if the added AOL allows the bullet to tip over/allign sooner
... and rim still be no higher than the barrel hood.

That said -- it the nose if deforming/flat-spotting upon hitting the chamber top, that effectively makes for a shorter bullet for "tip-over"
So 243Win's "harder is better" is a good Rx

[guy_with_boolits]

We know that.
But the empty case sits slightly below the hood at it stands now.

The OP might yet want to take advantage of the extra space to see if the added AOL allows the bullet to tip over/allign sooner
... and rim still be no higher than the barrel hood.

That said -- it the nose if deforming/flat-spotting upon hitting the chamber top, that effectively makes for a shorter bullet for "tip-over"
So 243Win's "harder is better" is a good Rx

And just to be clear I did this experiment....trying to eek out every last bit of COAL. I haven't yet fired the maximized COAL (its only .016" longer than the ones that jammed) to see how it goes

[mehavey]

a thousandth here, a thousandth there.... pretty soon it adds up to real distance.



More seriously, it may be that the pure lead isn't able to handle banging up against the chamber top on entrance,
and it's deforming/flattening to the point that the geometry/friction surface changes on trying to straighten itself out)

[guy_with_boolits]

a thousandth here, a thousandth there.... pretty soon it adds up to real distance.

I think I'm facing a quadruple whammy of jam-inducing factors:

-lead too soft
-range brass might not fit extractor nicely
-forced to use very short COAL because of gun chamber
-SWC profile

[pmer]

I've been thinking of getting a truncated cone nose profile for the 1911. How do they compare to RN and SWC for feeding?

[guy_with_boolits]

MP-452-200 mold will be here in a few days so I am making the executive decision to abandon SWC since it serves no purpose for me and switch basically all my 45ACP ammo to this new hollow point for all purposes

I'll probably end up selling the SWC mold.

I did also buy, as a backup, an old RN 2 cavity mold just in case

[45-70 Chevroner]

- Use full-strength Lee ALOX -- a dab on thumb/forefinger ("greasy fingers")
- "Grease-up" the bullets as you pick the up one at a time/place vertical/base down on a plate. Thin film. Bullet groove fill plays no part.
- (Renew the ALOX on your fingers every 4-5 bullets to keep things greasy)

Bake (yes bake) at 225 for 40-45 minutes/allow final cool/dry overnight. Thin-film/ALOX'd bullets will not be tacky at all at that point

Shoot them.




postscript: Depending on the results when using the pure/thin-film/baked/cooled/dried ALOX method above, consider upping the charge/fast powder
( I know it sounds paradoxical, but trust me. Lead bullets like enough pressure to bump up a bit at the very start)

I have never heard of baking boolits after lubing them. I think that is a serious mistake. 225 degrees is hot enough to melt the lube off. I use a mixture of 30/70 mineral spirits and Lee liquid lube and swirl them around in a cool whip container pour them out on a plastic sheet let dry over night, then load and shoot. My plastic sheet is 1/16" thick and about one square foot in size. I don't worry about them laying on their side but I do spread them out so they are not laying on top of each other.

[mehavey]

I have never heard of baking boolits after lubing them. I think that is a serious mistake.
225 degrees is hot enough to melt the lube off.

Don't argue w/ about 8 years of doing this with greasy-fingered Lee Liquid ALOX w/o any evidence of "melt-off"
If anything, it 'uniforms' the residual coatings perfectly.



As to effectiveness:
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...41&postcount=5 for rifle use w/ Lyman #2 and Hvy 45-70
See https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...27&postcount=8 for rifle use w/ Lyman #2 and Med-Hvy 30-40 Krag
See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post4472544 use w/ Lyman #2 and ModeratelyFast AR-15/223

[DougGuy]

I can make it jam on the bench just running the cycle...

pictured is the type of jam I was getting while trying to shoot..either from a slide release or an actual full cyclce

I mean the SWC doesnt have as nice of a curve to angle it up as an RN does. The super soft lead probably isnt helping either.

The pic shows how the cases get their dents..they get smashed onto the inner edge of the chamber bevel when the soft squarish SWC front end gets stuck on the chamber roof because the SWC has more of a squarish profile that doesnt smoothly rotate it, and even if it might the soft lead flattens out making things worse as far as transmitting forces which would turn the boolit

You guys are KILLING yourselves with these NO THROAT barrels! SAAMI specs call for some freebore. J.M. Bowning designed the 1911 with freebore in the throat. Modern manufacturers couldn;t be bothered to ream freebore into the barrel as long as it plunks factory hardball, SEND IT OUT! SELL IT! NEXT!!!

We who use cast boolits in the 1911 across the board prefer a .452" boolit diameter. 95% of 45 ACP 1911 barrels made in the last 20 years will NOT plunk a handload with a .452" boolit loaded to the specified COA in tested, published load data! This is a true fact!

The 45 ACP will experience 3 point jams IF your COA is too short! It MAKES it jam! If you have a barrel like mehavey's, simply send it and have it throated so you can load any COA you want to, and not have to shove the boolit down ito the case so far the web of the brass downsizes the base of the boolit!

Example:

A barrel properly throated will feed anything you can cycle through the magazine, and they shoot lights out!

Attachment 276136

Here is a Kahr barrel, these pistols are notorious for not plunking even some factory self defense ammo, this one (and your 1911 barrel) will plunk all of the dummies shown, and cycles them like a Singer sewing machine. Problem solved!

Attachment 276137 Attachment 276138

[mehavey]

If you have a barrel like mehavey's, simply send it and have it throated

Luckily... it feeds everything from 200gr H&G68 SWC through 230RN just fine... but I'll check-6 w/ SandyG as to opinion/options.

[DougGuy]

Luckily... it feeds everything from 200gr H&G68 SWC through 230RN just fine... but I'll check-6 w/ SandyG as to opinion/options.

Yes but you are seated well down in the case. You couldn't use published data without compensating for the shorter COA. I have a LOT of satisfied users on this forum who have had barrels throated and to date not one complaint or report of accuracy falling off.

[mehavey]

Must be my mojo....

[guy_with_boolits]

Must be my mojo....

so, datapoint: no way in heck could I get that pictured SWC with 1.26OAL to plunk. It would be almost 0.1" above the barrel shroud too. Am I doing it wrong?

EDIT: you know.....LOOKING at that SWC round, the 1/16" or so that protrudes above the case would seem to be about the same amount as my barrel throat

I would think it WOULD plunk at 1.26....something seems off here

an empty case ends up slightly below the barrel shroud...

so why wouldnt this work? maybe my SWC's are just too big and not fitting into the throat

[guy_with_boolits]

You guys are KILLING yourselves with these NO THROAT barrels! SAAMI specs call for some freebore. J.M. Bowning designed the 1911 with freebore in the throat. Modern manufacturers couldn;t be bothered to ream freebore into the barrel as long as it plunks factory hardball, SEND IT OUT! SELL IT! NEXT!!!

We who use cast boolits in the 1911 across the board prefer a .452" boolit diameter. 95% of 45 ACP 1911 barrels made in the last 20 years will NOT plunk a handload with a .452" boolit loaded to the specified COA in tested, published load data! This is a true fact!

The 45 ACP will experience 3 point jams IF your COA is too short! It MAKES it jam! If you have a barrel like mehavey's, simply send it and have it throated so you can load any COA you want to, and not have to shove the boolit down ito the case so far the web of the brass downsizes the base of the boolit!

Example:



A barrel properly throated will feed anything you can cycle through the magazine, and they shoot lights out!


Here is a Kahr barrel, these pistols are notorious for not plunking even some factory self defense ammo, this one (and your 1911 barrel) will plunk all of the dummies shown, and cycles them like a Singer sewing machine. Problem solved!

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

[P Flados]

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

The sad thing is these "throatless wonders" are just bad manufacturing with no justification at all.

For a gun maker, putting a proper throat on the chamber of an autoloading pistol is easy in the big scheme of things.

Good throats do allow proper cartridge COAL and proper COAL can make all the difference with feeding.

[DougGuy]

I would like to see this for myself. So you are saying a typical factory RN will not plunk?

Also are you saying that the short COAL causes jams (I could see that happening somehow), and therefore throating the barrel lets you use a longer COAL, solving the problem?

The Kahr I have wouldn't reliably shoot the Hornady Critical Defense round. I had a couple of them that went click, primer dented but no ignition, it was actually seating the round further into the chamber and shoving the JHP bullet into the rifling. I have throated a couple dozen of this same model, for the same reason. Most factory ammo would plunk, some of the truncated cone JHP designs would not.

The tiny bit of freebore you have in your barrel, is likely only .451" in diameter, maybe even not that big, where you need .452" or a little bigger to reliably plunk a SWC at a decent COA so that it feeds flawlessly.

One of our users here Char Gar sent me a barrel that he had been deep seating the 423452 which is the 255gr 45 Colt LSWC boolit, when he got it back he could run it all day at the range with that boolit with nary a hiccup. He says he had been doing it wrong for 53yrs.... You just can't go out and buy a 1911 made in the last 20 or so years that has a throat SUITABLE for shooting handloads with cast boolits. Most and I say most, will plunk a lead round nose boolit as long as it is .451" hardly any will plunk the boolits mehavey posted in his pic.

His barrel has no throat at all, so that tells me that the barrel itself has a generous groove diameter if he can plunk the SWC in the pic, and it is sized .452"

it's not mojo it's math simple as that. You can't stuff a .452" diameter object into a smaller diameter hole, that's not how it works.

You want your barrel, which is different from his obviously, to run like a raped ape with your handloads? Have it throated then have all the fun you are missing now.

Edit: I might add that I like to put a generous amount of freebore in the throat, so that the boolit when it leaves the case is supported in the freebore which is a snug fit, this holds the boolit squared with the centerline of the bore, and it holds it concentric to the leade ins of the rifling, I use the throat as a guide and I like to get the driving bands of the boolit into the throat by the time it leaves the case mouth, THEN let it engage the rifling. The freebore acts like an alignment die, centering the boolit and aligning it to the bore.

No barrel manufacturer does this. No gun maker does this. Throating a barrel like this is something I came up with after using the Taylor Throat reamer on some revolvers with thread choke and seeing how that guided the boolit into the rifling prompted me to adapt the front half of that throat profile and put that in the 1911 barrels I throat. It just works.

The only drawback that I have heard about, and I am not sure this is a drawback, was that there was a slight loss of velocity, maybe 25 to 35 FPS, and that is as it should be. There is less resistance in the throated barrel, so there is less pressure generated, and pressure is what creates velocity. You can overcome this by bumping up your charge weight ever so slightly.

Take for instance the 45 ACP Blackhawk revolver, those are very accurate, some guys with convertibles say the ACP cylinder outshoots the 45 Colt cylinder, and would you look at what's in front of the 45 ACP boolit as it sits in the cylinder? Over an INCH of (drumroll...........) FREEBORE!!!!!!!

I'm just shaking my head at why the manufacturers won't put any in an expensive autoloader, they want to claim match grade this and that, as long as you are using factory fodder you are good to go, but try to run the gun with handloaded .452" SWC seated to the PUBLISHED COA? Forget it. At least until it is throated.