It seems as though you think "standard" pressures cannot destruct a defect case, just pointing out again that if everything is fine with the case (and the firearm can handle it) they can take a lot more pressure in the case of the 460 Rowland almost twice the pressure of a standard 45 ACP.
This whole thread I have been pointing out that it took a lot of pressure to
blow out that case like that....and you just confirmed it took a lot of pressure to blow out a case like that.
Yes, standard pressures don't cleanly sever brass and blow it away without a trace. We skipped past bent to totally gone and sharply cut.
Pressure that is high is the culprit. Low 45 ACP pressures that do not even deflect brass in the feedramp area suddenly sever it cleanly and totally blow it away? Weren't low pressures.
Did you not post a link to where a near identical case with a flaw did not fail catastrophically at 45 like pressures?
How are you in any way supporting your point, I am wondering. Seems like the opposite.
I have loaded 460 Rowland loads in 45 acp cases for quite some time. I have an aftermarket barrel and different springs but never had a problem like this.
It willbe interesting to see what Starline says.
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More confirmation that it takes a lot of pressure to perforate a case like that.
It would be more interesting, and informative, if the OP would simply retrieve the barrel and case and mate the two and show a picture. It will show the case blown out precisely over the ramp area and answer his question definitively.
His avoidance of a simple task seems to imply he wants confirmation of his idea rather than proper analysis based on actual evidence. I realize the guy is out of town but he could at least verbally commit to doing so if he wants to know.
He has to get the case if he wants Starline to analyze it so he might as well do the reasonable thing I ask and fit the case in the chamber as well.
Last edited by 35remington; 06-23-2016 at 04:38 PM.
I have never questioned the fact that the failure would follow the point of least resistance, where ever it can flow, be it a ramp hole for a primer, etc.It would be more interesting, and informative, if the OP would simply retrieve the barrel and case and mate the two and show a picture. It will show the case blown out precisely over the ramp area and answer his question definitively.
A brass case will contain pressure, where it can and has done so for hundreds of thousands of rounds for me and many millions for others.
Brass will "blow out" and conform to chambers below normal pressures, that's how we fireform cases and how others over size bottle neck cases (or fire them in over sized chambers) and get into typical case head separation situations.
From 30+ years of reloading I just haven't had one give away into the extractor groove (thickest part of the case) like that one did.
Pretty much it.
I just want to know what Starline says.
Read this whole thread. Waiting to hear what star line has to say.
Originally Posted by 35remington
I'm not a self professed expert, but wouldn't the blowout depend on the brass as well as the pressure? Wouldn't brittle brass tend to burst out a section; while softer brass leave a different pattern?
Maybe this brass was not annealed? Maybe it was work hardened in the manufacture process. Maybe stresses not relieved. I think going to Starline is a good idea.
Given your extractor groove is still there, the blowout was pretty much confined to the powder containing area of the case and the adjacent walls. The crack did not fail completely through the solid head of the case. It looks very similar to the previous blowouts you posted pictures of. It looks like it does due to pressure.
You are still at an utter loss to explain how low "standard" pressures that won't even deflect brass into a ramped area under normal conditions can completely sever brass and chop it away cleanly. At most it would be bent over this area with low standard pressure even with a defect, not severed. Any split would enlarge, but it would not sever the brass cleanly and precisely right over the ramped area.
Now, how about a commitment to getting the case and barrel? Nothing like solving problems yourself. Your best evidence is not just the case, but the visual interaction of case and barrel. This is how you eliminate speculation and gain facts.
Before you get on a mission to try to prove someone else was at fault, positively address the possibility they were not. You have not even come close to doing that yet, and all evidence so far most solidly backs the suggestion that a high pressure event was present.
What do you suppose Starline's commentary will be when presented with a case that gives by its appearance every indication that too much pressure was present?
How often do you suppose handloaders send cases to Starline and ask them to explain problems that occurred that Starline likely had no part in causing?
If you answered the first question with "too much pressure" and the second with "very very frequently" you've already correctly predicted Starline's response to this matter, if they respond at all.
That's why I've repeatedly asked the OP to perform the simple expedient of matching case to barrel. Refusal to do so is refusal to deal with extremely relevant evidence pertaining to the matter.
I might conclude by stating that I am not aware of anyone that is free from error....but that most specifically includes the guy loading the ammo, no matter how long he's been a handloader. What factors could cause a high pressure event, given that there is more than one possible cause?
Given that it's impossible to prove it wasn't a high pressure event, and clear evidence is present to strongly suggest that it was.....asking Starline to be culpable for what happened here is a pretty big stretch. Huge, actually.
I'm no expert either but I have been reloading since 1985 and working with metal for at least as long.
Yes it was pressure of course. But that doesn't mean it had to be excessive pressure. I have seen many forms of defects in manufacturing from porosity in castings to hair line cracks and all other sorts of things.
I think Starline deserves a look.
Motor
The way the case blew out does very strongly suggest it was excessive pressure. As I said, it wouldn't look like that if it wasn't. Compare its extreme similarity to the cases that blew out from excessive pressure. They are pretty much identical.
Couldn't "normal" pressure also be "excessive" if the brass was flawed?
No. Large sections of the case would not be blown away and cleanly severed.
Remember the OP claimed the case that blew was supposedly loaded to a pressure level that cannot do these things. It did not even attain standard velocity.
Obviosly the pressure was in fact much higher than that. The most conclusive proof we have is that of a very high pressure event.
Could it turn out to be a "perfect Storm" situation? Over charge ( doesn't have to be a double charge), Brass casing with a defect, and a slight out of battery ignition. Or, what would the pressure spike to if it was a correct charge but something in the case using up some of the space ( tumbling media, brass shavings from manufacturing). Less area for the powder to expand would build higher pressure.
BTW: If bullet pushed back in case by just 0.2" --> 77,000psi
I had one of those in 45 too. It blew the mag out of the gun. If i was shooting a plastic fantastic. I think it would have been worse to me and the gun. It was a 1911.
One round at a time.
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That's why I started shooting only cast with the case mouth partially crimped into the front driving band. You don't want what happened in post #97 to happen to you.
Starline ever get back to you?
I don't think you can get 9grs of any powder in a 45 case and still fit a bullet in. But I haven't tried so I'm not sure. A bullet slamming into the feed ramp and being pushed back in the case can cause extreme pressure. But if he was loading one case at a time and feeding into the chamber by hand during ammo testing, It's unlikely to have any setback.
Waiting for feedback from Starline.
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