How big is the market?

[375RUGER]

On the Patent stuff. I don't think anything I am doing is new, while the gun is not a clone, I don't think any of the features is new only the way they might be combined. I am going to keep the details secret for as long as I can and get NDA's with anyone who makes parts for me.

Tim

The number one rule of applying for a patent-- any person who“invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain a patent,”

In other words, don't underestimate the patent value of what you are doing. My 2 cents.

To answer your question about how big is the market, the market is billions of dollars (just in America alone)--grab a piece of it man. Rule of thumb, "build for the masses, eat with the classes; build for the classes, eat with the masses". There is a larger market for cheap firearms.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If someone made an inexpensive switch barrel low power rolling block bunny gun how many would sell each year in the $200 Range?

A hundred, thousand, 5 thousand,10 thousand?

Does it help that it is a rolling block or does the action type matter?

What if it is limited to 38 spcl. Or less power?

Tim

How many Handi-rifles are sold per year?
https://www.basspro.com/H&R-1871-Han...duct/10218606/
I can't imagine how you could manufacture in USA and sell for a retail price below $300.
BUT, it you could, I'd buy one...especially if it was 38spl...and bonus if it's a rolling block style, instead of break action like the Handi.

[shoot-n-lead]

How many Handi-rifles are sold per year?
https://www.basspro.com/H&R-1871-Han...duct/10218606/
I can't imagine how you could manufacture in USA and sell for a retail price below $300.
BUT, it you could, I'd buy one...especially if it was 38spl...and bonus if it's a rolling block style, instead of break action like the Handi.

X 2

I will take one, too.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I can't imagine how you could manufacture in USA and sell for a retail price below $300.

OK, I just remembered that I bought a savage Axis rifle (243win bolt action) 2 years ago, on sale at Cabela's for $219 (price after mail in rebate). Of course I didn't like the flexible plastic stock, so my Boyds laminated stock was $99 plus shipping...so then I did pay over $300. But I guess what I'm saying is, I guess I need to recant my above quote.

[slownsteady22]

Rolling block 44. Steel frame.....sign me up!

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[GARD72977]

I think certain calibers would be winners. I don't understand why Uberti does not make a limited run of is calibers in the 1885 every few years.

[mcdaniel.mac]

In .357, .327, and perhaps a 9mm? I'd buy a few if I liked the finish. The .327 Federales would likely jump at the chance to put it through a factory rifle.

[country gent]

With modern machining practices this could be doable. An investment cast frame ( Ruger uses this process) would allow for a finished reciver with little machining needed to complete. Same with the lower tang / trigger group. Most of the threads could be cast in and just cleaned up as needed. A steady supply of decent barrels might be an issue. The blocks could be investment cast or mim. Triggers sears and hammers could be wire edmed from pre hardened stock pretty much to size. Converted to coil springs and they would be available off the shelf. Desighned right screws springs and pins could be standard items requiring just a little modification. When starting out and farming out the parts 100 pieces may be needed to get a resonable cost starting out. ANother is that it will definitly start slow and as word gets around and people see use them sales will pick up.

[MT Gianni]

Add the 30 Badger, keep it under $275 drilled and tapped and I would guess a 5 year market of 5000. You may sell 1000 the first year, 500 the second adn third then ramp to 1500 as the word gets out. Barrel quality will always be suspect at that cost.

[dtknowles]

With modern machining practices this could be doable. An investment cast frame ( Ruger uses this process) would allow for a finished reciver with little machining needed to complete. Same with the lower tang / trigger group. Most of the threads could be cast in and just cleaned up as needed. A steady supply of decent barrels might be an issue. The blocks could be investment cast or mim. Triggers sears and hammers could be wire edmed from pre hardened stock pretty much to size. Converted to coil springs and they would be available off the shelf. Desighned right screws springs and pins could be standard items requiring just a little modification. When starting out and farming out the parts 100 pieces may be needed to get a resonable cost starting out. ANother is that it will definitly start slow and as word gets around and people see use them sales will pick up.

No lower tang, no trigger group, no threads, not a clone of any prior gun. Something completely new but then again nothing radical.

[dtknowles]

Add the 30 Badger, keep it under $275 drilled and tapped and I would guess a 5 year market of 5000. You may sell 1000 the first year, 500 the second adn third then ramp to 1500 as the word gets out. Barrel quality will always be suspect at that cost.

You will probably have to do the 30 badger yourself. Run your own reamer into a 32 s&w barrel so you will get a 312 badger. The barrel will come off easy so you can put it in a lathe. The gun will totally strip very easy, including removing the barrel. Not really a switch barrel but still can switch barrels pretty easy.

Tim

[northmn]

Ed Harris used to write about modifying Handi Rifles to 32 Long for Bunny Guns. He enjoyed them.
We see marketing questions like this often. One problem is that marketing is guess work. Winchester came out with their line of angle eject rifles and cartridges like the 307, 356, and 7mm Waters. Darned things don't seem to get popular until they are dropped for lack of sales. Even then are they popular? Marlin dropped the 450 and I really don't know how the 308 and 338 versions are doing. The 62 Marlin in 256 and 30 carbine should have went over but flopped as did the 88 Winchester. We will see how the 327 Henry does, but I would not be surprised if it is limited production. The LGS doesn't seem to have many revolvers in the caliber and some of its appeal is the rifle/pistol match. Not saying the calibers and combinations are not good ones, just that the general run of shooters of we probably don't represent, as we are a little more dedicated, don't seem to jump at them.
I have 22 mag, 32-20 and 357 levers. I probably use the 22 mag as much as any and would sell the others first. I just hoarded a few boxes of 22 mags to weather a shortage again. The 32-20 is more attractive now that 22 mags are about $16 a box and 22LR's went up but it is still nice to have a rifle that does not need to be reloaded.

DEP

[Bulldogger]

It is an attractive prospect for me as a bug out gun and simple teaching tool for my son, and a host of other situations. .38/.357 is attractive as it is easy to reload for and has common projectile with my 9mm handloads. That said, as a bug out gun .45LC/.410 is equally attractive and a good combination with respect to available ammo.

Is that $200 for one receiver and two bbls, or just one bbl? If the extra bbls are not significantly expensive, I'd still be attracted to it even if it came with only 1 barrel as a starter.

Two-bbls models, such as the youth rifle/shotgun single shots I see on sale from time to time, have interested me briefly. The idea of having one in a rolling-block style action is more interesting, and for $200 I would commit to one, maybe end up with two (or is that 4?). The only gimme I'd ask for is the ability to readily fit a wood stock to it (buy it or make it). I am assuming it would come with plastic dressing as a cost savings. I don't care how inexpensive, resilient or water resistant they are, I don't like plastic stocks.

Bulldogger

[dtknowles]

Thanks everyone and keep the comments coming. I am no where near taking orders. It seems there is some interest and that $200 is a good target MSRP. It seems that Aluminum frame is less attractive (well duh) to most people. I will see if a steel design can get in the price range. The cost of the receiver was the concern mainly for cost of machining. For this project I can't see how we would amortize the cost of castings for the receiver so the receiver was going to be machined out of bar/plate. I started the drawings.

Tim

[Texas by God]

I would buy an aluminum frame .38 special 4-5# rolling block type rifle for $200 right now. Get on it. Best, Thomas.

[dverna]

Tim,

Moving the price point up to use steel makes sense. Note that the Ruger LCR uses aluminum cylinders in the .38+P but steel in the 9mm. For a platform that can run different cartridges, steel gives you more flexibility in caliber offerings. If you came back and said $250, it is not going to be a deal killer.

Wood stocks will be less expensive starting off. Plastic injection molds are expensive and it will require a lot of units to amortize the cost.

I have no idea of the receiver design you are looking at. Does it need to be one piece, or can it be built up from plates bolted together? It may be fugly made that way but easier/cheaper to make. One last consideration. If your design is conducive to something like an AR 80% receiver that would be a plus. No FFL transfer, and a lower cost for those capable of finishing the rifle themselves.

Don Verna

[MT Gianni]

Tim,

Moving the price point up to use steel makes sense. Note that the Ruger LCR uses aluminum cylinders in the .38+P but steel in the 9mm. For a platform that can run different cartridges, steel gives you more flexibility in caliber offerings. If you came back and said $250, it is not going to be a deal killer.

Wood stocks will be less expensive starting off. Plastic injection molds are expensive and it will require a lot of units to amortize the cost.

I have no idea of the receiver design you are looking at. Does it need to be one piece, or can it be built up from plates bolted together? It may be fugly made that way but easier/cheaper to make. One last consideration. If your design is conducive to something like an AR 80% receiver that would be a plus. No FFL transfer, and a lower cost for those capable of finishing the rifle themselves.

Don Verna

With the previous administration an 80% finish would put a huge target on your back. I don't know what the new one will bring but would hate to have to make a design change in 4 or 8 years.

[Ola]

I personally would like to have one for .357 mag.

But is there general demand? Actually I can't imagine why anyone would need one.

Hunting? The popular hunting cartridges are popular for a reason. Maybe if subsonic 9 mm ammo is available and people shoot small game in populated areas and are allowed to use silencers.

Sports? Totally useless.

Plinking? Single shot might have somekind of a demand in a country with very restrictive gun law. But usually in those countries "plinking" as you know it doesn't even exist.

IMO the only demand for it is us, the un-rational weirdos .

[dtknowles]

Tim,

Moving the price point up to use steel makes sense. Note that the Ruger LCR uses aluminum cylinders in the .38+P but steel in the 9mm. For a platform that can run different cartridges, steel gives you more flexibility in caliber offerings. If you came back and said $250, it is not going to be a deal killer.

Wood stocks will be less expensive starting off. Plastic injection molds are expensive and it will require a lot of units to amortize the cost.

I have no idea of the receiver design you are looking at. Does it need to be one piece, or can it be built up from plates bolted together? It may be fugly made that way but easier/cheaper to make. One last consideration. If your design is conducive to something like an AR 80% receiver that would be a plus. No FFL transfer, and a lower cost for those capable of finishing the rifle themselves.

Don Verna

Don

I hesitate to talk about design details incase I inspire competition. If I decide that it will not be worth the effort to go to rate production then I will share my design with the community for their own fun.

I don't know enough about the 80% rule to comment.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I personally would like to have one for .357 mag.

But is there general demand? Actually I can't imagine why anyone would need one.

Hunting? The popular hunting cartridges are popular for a reason. Maybe if subsonic 9 mm ammo is available and people shoot small game in populated areas and are allowed to use silencers.

Sports? Totally useless.

Plinking? Single shot might have somekind of a demand in a country with very restrictive gun law. But usually in those countries "plinking" as you know it doesn't even exist.

IMO the only demand for it is us, the un-rational weirdos .

Single Shot Pistol Caliber Carbine, not really a hot item, I get that, that is why I was asking. Some people here had previously expressed an interest, the Martini Cadet was such a thing and people have fun with them. Of course there will be nothing classic about my design if I want to keep it cheap.

I am going to size it for .357 mag.

Tim