44 Mag load for elk?

[44man]

I can't add to the great post Doug made and the Lee 310 is one great boolit. Bone is nothing much to worry about once weight is enough.
I do use a harder boolit for the tension and it does not hurt the .44 as far as killing. The .475 thrives on hard lead too but other calibers I use need a softer nose. I still keep the rest of the boolits hard.
One season a buck came across in front, moving fast. He was 76 yards and it was still dim out. As I lead him I seen what looked like a little brush ahead but the gun went off. The deer jumped around to my side and I took him in the neck with the next shot. When I got there I found I had shot an osage orange tree, 10" in diameter with another 10" trunk behind. My boolit went through the first trunk, into the second. Osage is some very tough wood!
I don't put much value on crimp. Friend brought factory cast loads to test in a few .454's. Not BB but another company known for hot loads. They had full profile crimps but it only took one shot to lock a freedom and two with a SRH. Not fun to tap boolits back in with a dowel! Very dangerous. I use the least crimp and depend on tension so not a single one of my loads pulled. I ran one for two cylinders full of hot loads. Even Lee boolits with the chicken scratch grooves hold.
I do not believe in ME or losing energy with a pass through because the boolit works because of energy expended. Make the boolit work and velocity or other figures mean nothing.
I see a difference when range increases. Deer shot to 75 yards or under make 20 to 30 yards with the .44 but at 100, they can make 100 yards but blood trails are good with two holes. Most every deer shot with the .475 drop like a sack of dog poo. Energy IS needed but it is not numbers, it is how the boolit works.
Doug uses softer to generate more energy but that goes against my tension needed because of boolit weight I use. Another reason I use only Fed 150 primers in the .44, keep boolits in until powder burn is going so Doug is 100% correct over that. I don't believe crimp alone can do it. A mag primer will break crimp. Even the dies you use can ruin accuracy by over expanding brass.
Case size determines primers so the .475 and up use a 155 best and the .454 should have LP pockets for it. The .45 Colt is border line and will work with a standard or WLP. Full mag is too much. ACP works best with a SP primer.
I had trouble with the 440 gr from my .500 JRH with too hard, deer going 100-120 yards. I softened half the nose but not pure, 3#of pure and 1# of WW. I dropped a big doe in her tracks. A big 8 point came out, seen her and stamped his feet at her to make her get up but she was down for good. He was in the thick but walked fast through the woods at 50 yards. I pulled a lead and found an opening, shot hit behind his shoulders and he dropped like a hot potato. Not many drop with just a double lung hit so my jaw dropped too.
WV confuses me, they reduced the amount of doe to kill but we can take a doe in gun season but if you kill a buck first you must kill a doe before taking another buck.

[white eagle]

I don't know that elk a hard to get close to
I shot one at 30 yds in a hunt in Idaho

[jaydub in wi]

A 300 mag at 30 yards might be the worst ever.

Sorry to sidetrack this post, but I did take a deer at 25 yards with this cartridge. With a 165 grain old style barnes X bullet, there was not too much blood shot meat either. I wouldn't consider this "the worst ever", but care has to be taken when choosing bullets for this cartridge to avoid bullet blow up.

[rlb]

170 yds with a Lee 310 and H110. I think the 44 is plenty of gun for elk.

[Don Purcell]

A good friend of mine took a bison with an LBT 300 grain LWFN from a Smith and Wesson Model 629 a few months ago. Bison sure are tasty.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think people think more of the ability to knock something off its feet. Not to kill it fast when they talk knock down power. If you think your load has a lot of the ability to knock something off its feet try the old test. Hang a 100lb back of feed corn or other grain on a stand that lets it swing freely then shoot it with a 300 wby or even a 458 and see how little force is actually applied by the bullet. the bag will barely swing. I think this and the ability to impart shock to the central nervous system get mixed up with the knock down power discussions.

I know what you mean. NSB needs to be able to articulate his meaning in a more understandable way instead of just throwing out a blanket statement.

[44MAG#1]

I think people think more of the ability to knock something off its feet. Not to kill it fast when they talk knock down power. If you think your load has a lot of the ability to knock something off its feet try the old test. Hang a 100lb back of feed corn or other grain on a stand that lets it swing freely then shoot it with a 300 wby or even a 458 and see how little force is actually applied by the bullet. the bag will barely swing. I think this and the ability to impart shock to the central nervous system get mixed up with the knock down power discussions.

Yes, to many people believe these cop shows where the perp gets shot with the 9MM or a 38 snubby and it knocks him over a couple trash cans or out the window and lays him flat like he was hit by a Kenworth.
Does not happen.

[44man]

I have around 180, give or take, deer kills with revolvers. I see things and do a necropsy on every deer. With the .44 and fast expanding bullets like the 240 XTP, I do not penetrate, blood trails do not exist and I back track every deer to impact point.
Moving to 300+, nothing stops the boolit. Great blood trails but any deer hit 50 or less does not need tracked, going down in less then 30 yards. Internal damage is very good.
Deer hit at 100 will go as far as 100 yards but still a good blood trail with full penetration. There is a large difference in internal damage but it is enough. Deer hit with the .44 take off. Deer hit with a heavy .45 Colt boolit will just lay down or walk away and bleed out. They shake their heads, panic and crash fast but I see the difference between the calibers. The Ruger Old Army is a surprise with a RB, kills very fast.
Deer hit with the .475 or JRH with a proper boolit will have most deer drop in their tracks even behind the shoulders. The hard .475 boolit has less meat damage but great internal damage. The JRH needs a portion of the nose softer. The big 440 gr if too hard will just poke a hole out to 120+ yards. The .44 and .475 can both use WD WW boolits. The .44 might work better at longer ranges if the nose was just a little softer. I never soften the whole boolit.
The 45-70 BFR sucks with a hard boolit, pokes a hole and deer can make 200 yards with no blood trails until 100 yards. I know where they are going so just go to where they cross to find first blood but have lost 2 deer with it. This is one gun that I still need to work with. The boolit MUST have a soft nose. It is too fast at 1630 fps.
Fastest kills seem to hover at 1300 to 1330 fps. Slower or faster slows the kills. Both sides need boolit work. Best I have found is half the nose softer.
I went to a 420 gr, 50-50 HP in the 45-70 once and got a quartering shot behind the shoulder. Exit in the off shoulder that was totally destroyed. Time to step back!
Next I used the 300 gr Hornady rifle bullet and it worked perfectly. But I am a cast boolit man first.
I used the softer nose .500 JRH on a big doe. She was walking fast so I lead her at shoulder front, perfect to hit behind shoulders. But at sear break, she stopped and I hit bone. I wiped out the bones, shoulder at entrance and neck on exit. I did save a lot of meat but many do not know how devastating a revolver can be. This is the lowly .44, neck shot at 76 yards with a 330 gr WD, WW boolit. Ask if I want a HP or a 50-50 boolit! Heart with a full hard .475 at 55 yards, No meat loss. Boolit work in passage. Deer hit on the run.
As range and velocities change you must find what works. Same with animal size.
I believe my deer loads will work with ANY animal though.
I do NOT believe in ME, only what a boolit does inside. Toss the figures.

[FN in MT]

Killed two mature bulls with old fashioned Keith slugs over 22.0 of 2400.

Reading all these posts I must have been LUCKY?

[44man]

Killed two mature bulls with old fashioned Keith slugs over 22.0 of 2400.

Reading all these posts I must have been LUCKY?

Not luck, good boolit. The mistake is to look for massive expansion when the .44 just works as is.
I find many, many dead deer during and after season and most were shot with magnum rifles.
First problem is hunters around here never shoot all year, just check the scope with a few $4 a round shots before opening day. They are afraid of the guns so can't hit.
You fellas know what I mean, gut shots, rump shots, legs shot off and on and on. I once found a dozen on one property and there was SNOW on the ground. It is the MAGNUM thing and if a deer does not drop, "must have missed." Wait for another.
The average hunter is a SLOB! If you pull the trigger, your hunt is over, go find the animal. Maybe you DID miss or made a bad shot. How do you know?
A neighbor makes me cuss, loses half the deer he shoots at with a .308. I refuse to get him for a deer anymore. I am two properties away and my friend heard a shot, seen a buck come in to the thick, did not come out. I found the deer, gut shot. I said "wait" but we could see the orange in the stand and the jerk never got out to look. I told my friend, "Take the deer." I find many deer where I hunt, rotting and most are from the neighbor.
Hit right and eat, hit bad and you better get off your butt. .
I read a story long ago about western mule deer hunters. Shoot and if the deer did not drop, forget it.
I read stuff about some of us getting good kills with any gun but you are a SHOOTER and know what you use. I just talk about loser hunters that might take 3 shots a year.
Many up town hunt deer and I have invited all to come and shoot. But not a single one has except one and he does good every year.
Who would I want to hunt with me? ALL of you for sure.

[ShooterAZ]

I have also taken Elk with a 44 using 250 grain Keith bullets, 20 gr 2400 in a 14" T/C Contender. Previous to my starting to cast, I used 300 gr Hornady XTP's. All shots have been one shot kills, complete pass-throughs, no bullets ever recovered. Elk are not necessarily hard to get close to by the way, you just need to be a little sneaky and ambush them when they come to get a drink of water.

[FN in MT]

Not luck, good boolit. The mistake is to look for massive expansion when the .44 just works as is.
I find many, many dead deer during and after season and most were shot with magnum rifles.
First problem is hunters around here never shoot all year, just check the scope with a few $4 a round shots before opening day. They are afraid of the guns so can't hit.
You fellas know what I mean, gut shots, rump shots, legs shot off and on and on. I once found a dozen on one property and there was SNOW on the ground. It is the MAGNUM thing and if a deer does not drop, "must have missed." Wait for another.
The average hunter is a SLOB! If you pull the trigger, your hunt is over, go find the animal. Maybe you DID miss or made a bad shot. How do you know?
A neighbor makes me cuss, loses half the deer he shoots at with a .308. I refuse to get him for a deer anymore. I am two properties away and my friend heard a shot, seen a buck come in to the thick, did not come out. I found the deer, gut shot. I said "wait" but we could see the orange in the stand and the jerk never got out to look. I told my friend, "Take the deer." I find many deer where I hunt, rotting and most are from the neighbor.
Hit right and eat, hit bad and you better get off your butt. .
I read a story long ago about western mule deer hunters. Shoot and if the deer did not drop, forget it.
I read stuff about some of us getting good kills with any gun but you are a SHOOTER and know what you use. I just talk about loser hunters that might take 3 shots a year.
Many up town hunt deer and I have invited all to come and shoot. But not a single one has except one and he does good every year.
Who would I want to hunt with me? ALL of you for sure.

I agree with a lot of what you posted...especially "the average hunter is a slob".

During and after the general big game season we find all sorts of deer and elk wounded and left to die or worse yet...incapacitated and being eaten ALIVE by magpies, birds of prey and coyotes. NO animal deserves such a painful end.

Much of the issue where I hunt is the open spaces which make for long ranges and folks who are LOUSY shots. OR...the new trend I am seeing...LONG RANGE shooters. They buy an accurate, LR rifle and think they are Snipers, or tactical "operators". Now the goal is to make the LONGEST shot possible.

Few understand the complexities of LR shooting or the ballistics of their rds AT long range. That 7 Rem mag at 1K yds doesn't have the power it does at 300 yds. But they don't understand it.

Every new hunting season I feel sorrier for the game.

FN in MT

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Look at Post #28 by 44man. Those numbers for velocity sound familiar? Like black powder velocities? And heavy bullets? Seems similar to the old buffalo rounds. They sure worked. My deer last December was hit by a 367 gr bullet from a .45-70 loaded for Trapdoor pressures. He dropped at the shot. Almost no meat destroyed.

[Outpost75]

What he said^^^^

Also agree with the comments on Ruger Old Army with roundballs and heavy charge of high quality powder to get about 1000 fps. Have not killed anything over 200 pounds, but is death on whitetails. I load duplex in mine with black powder igniter, Red Dot and Buffalo Arms wad for 1000 fps with 230-grain TC Maxiball.

Kids, don't try this at home, but I fitted spare cylinder with transducer and worked up uniform 16kpsi load which approximated .45 Colt parameters.

[44man]

What he said^^^^

Also agree with the comments on Ruger Old Army with roundballs and heavy charge of high quality powder to get about 1000 fps. Have not killed anything over 200 pounds, but is death on whitetails. I load duplex in mine with black powder igniter, Red Dot and Buffalo Arms wad for 1000 fps with 230-grain TC Maxiball.

Kids, don't try this at home, but I fitted spare cylinder with transducer and worked up uniform 16kpsi load which approximated .45 Colt parameters.

Just use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG, it fits and will get to 1102 FPS with a RB.
I don't use a wad. My lube over the ball is a thicker BPCR lube, Crisco blows away in adjacent chambers.
I found another thing, my friend uses the Rem Buff hunter and boolits get cut badly from the gap. Cylinder is smaller and pressure goes right into the next throat. A RB does not get hurt.
My hunting life was kill clean and fast no matter the animal. I just can't believe how little some hunters feel about animals.
Once when pheasant hunting, I watched a fox squirrel for a while, left him alone. I came out the same way and found the squirrel dead on a fence post. Some creep killed it and left it.
I watched creeps shooting at running deer well over 200 yards with shotgun slugs. Seen and heard about deer stolen at gun point or stolen from where hung in camps. PA seemed the worst for that.
The greed is hard to understand.

[Groo]

Groo here
For those who are in to the "knock down" or "stopping power" mind set. try this.
Keith used the term "Slap" to describe the effect of a flat nose or expanding bullet.
"Slap" was the physical effect observed when the game was hit, not when the game went down.
"Slap" told you that you hit, "slap " caused the game to stop, trip,shake,fall down or run.
Keith seemed to have little use for bullets / or shells that did not show some "slap"
The "slap" is also an indication of how much "shock" to the nerves was supplied [ a bullet does not "shock" tissue]
This is depended on WHERE you hit and WHEN [ are they running or don't know you are there]
Killing is easy, the trick is to "slap" or "shock" the nerves to the point that a physical reaction is seen.

[44man]

Groo is right, can't knock an animal sideways but you can drop them out from under the gun before recoil is near done.
I have a few hundred deer with my .45 flintlocks and they usually go a short distance but when I drop the hammer on my .54 with a RB, they will be in a heap without a step. Fast kills happen with the right energy transfer to the nervous system.
I have found a WFN can fail if shot too fast and is too hard for the velocity. My take is the pressure wave from the flat will force tissue out of the way to again collapse. Slowing the hard boolit or letting it slow itself in passage with some upset works best.
Not talking about dead slow boolits with a pinch of Unique that can poke a hole without energy. Holes alone are not enough so you need to work on them. A pointed stick might be better if you can hold the deer with it.
Had a bad experience with my 7R pistol once. I shot a nice doe with a 154 gr Hornady because I could not get lighter ones to shoot. Good hit but no blood at all. I searched and searched so I walked circles and found her. Darn bullet is too tough from a pistol. Just a hole.
I tried the 120 gr with sad accuracy but tried Varget and got to 1/2" at 50. Works in the 7BR too with 2175 fps from a 10" barrel. I have not shot any deer with either since, opens are not kind anymore. One day I will put red dots on them.
Who would believe? VARGET! Hodgdon told me it would not work. Burns clean too. It is superior in the 6.5 swede too.
Either way, energy must work inside the animal and two holes are always best.
Some of the .44 boolits guys want are like trying to throw a badminton birdie through a deer. It takes more work then looking for big mushrooms in some junk you shoot at.
The 240 XTP is amazing--in a .44 special. Load to the hilt in a mag and you might have grass to eat as you search.
I was there long ago before I could hunt deer with the .44, blow up water, wood chucks, clay, wet paper. I was wrong. Find balance.

[theleo]

I love energy debates. I've killed 2 bulls with projectiles creating less than 70 fpe and triangular shape wounds 7/8" in diameter through the boiler room with practically no shock to the nerves or surrounding tissue. Put a hole through them and let them leak. More velocity and weight gives you the ability to take shots that can just end up wasting more meat.