What Kind of Lathe for Making Swage Dies

[smokeywolf]

Randy C. you're right about supply and demand with regard to old American made machine tools. Production of manual "toolroom lathes" is nowhere near what it was up until the advent of CNC. And, the toolroom lathes are the most size appropriate and versatile for the home shop machinist. Also, as people have discovered the lack of rigidity and durability of the Chinese made machinery as compared with that of the old American made stuff, I think more of the old American made iron is being passed down to family and friends instead of going into the classified ads.

One other thing I might add is, I've spent a lot of time leaning over Takisawa and WEBB lathes. If you're going to buy machinery made in Asia, I'd look for Taiwanese or Korean as apposed to Chinese (ROC).

smokeywolf

[sprinkintime]

It looks a little lite weight to me, and there is no collet attachments, which is really nice in doing die work. Sprink

http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM1027.html

[FWest]

^^^ nice!

does it come out of the same chinese factory as most lathes today or is it made in the USA?

Taiwan I believe. Check out that web site. They have a few different models and from what I hear the owner stands behind them very well.

I have an old Logan and am looking at the model I posted.

[Randy C]

There's a local machine shop in pristine shape close by I was told the owner has cancer and his wife will be selling it but I think they want to sell it as a hole, I've lost to many friends and family to Cancer. I will be checking to see how his health is this summer and I've said my prayers for them.

[cwheel]

It looks to me that the single biggest limiting factor to you is the lack of 220 volt power. You could have many choices of lathes that would do the job if you could get 220 volts to your shop, lots more options. When I was looking 30 years ago, my preference was for something in the 13-14" swing range with 40" between centers. Lots of worn out American lathes out there, and the few good ones often sell at twice what they are worth. Another question you will find yourself asking at some point will be, if you don't mind rebuilding the American lathe or mill that you got for a good price, but now find you have to rebuild it to make it reasonably usable. 5C collets are a big deal, and with most setups need at least a 1 3/8" spindle bore for the drawbar. Usually finding a lathe with a 1 3/8"+ spindle bore gets you into a 220 volt machine. ( sometimes 3 phase power as well ) Getting a 3 and 4 jaw chuck with whatever you buy is a must have. If I was looking for one and only had 110 volt available, I'd try for a Myford with a quick change first, then South Bend, Logan etc. Most of the American iron you will be worn out to the point of needing the ways ground and the dovetails refitted. Good American tool room lathes are indeed hard to come by. Many of the machines made during WW2 stayed in production well past their useful life because in America, shop owners were reluctant to retool unless absolutely necessary, didn't have many incentives to do so and up production. Of course shop owners would rather pocket this money if given a choice. Along came CNC and forced this issue in most cases. Manufacturing jobs moved to Asia also didn't help machine tool manufactures stay in business, and they were taken over by Asian companies. Point of saying this is finding modern American machine tools out there suitable for your uses will be almost imposable, after 1975, most were out of business.
Chris

[MaLar]

If you get an older one get one with the quick change gear box. I have a 1923 11" X 5' bed SB and it works well.
LaMar

[wonderwolf]

As far as size goes, I've been watching Youtube lessons from "tublecain" I think his name is on how to run a lathe (he taught shop class for a good number of years at a school) and he reminds us the #1 rule in machining anything....Rigidity Rigidity Rigidity.....can't do anything well if your machine flexes, moves about or your work isn't staying put. Big heavy lathes dampen vibrations and have the mass in both tool holding and work holding to keep your project on track.

[Cane_man]

that is one of the problems i am finding is that most 110V are smaller spindle bore, would like at least 1" bore

[teddyblu]

Cane Man
buy once cry once. here is a lathe that will take you thru die work to rebarreling,chambering, and other gunsmithing work. seems pricey but more than half the price is in tooling. Rockwell is a well known and respected lathe for this kind of applications. there are pictures available, I was able to bring them up and view them yesterday. if you can get the pics you will water at the mouth. I would love to have it but it wont fit the shop with the three different lathes I have.
http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=5&b=193

[deltaenterprizes]

Cane Man
buy once cry once. here is a lathe that will take you thru die work to rebarreling,chambering, and other gunsmithing work. seems pricey but more than half the price is in tooling. Rockwell is a well known and respected lathe for this kind of applications. there are pictures available, I was able to bring them up and view them yesterday. if you can get the pics you will water at the mouth. I would love to have it but it wont fit the shop with the three different lathes I have.
http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=5&b=193

I don't see a price

[sprinkintime]

$3350.

[Cane_man]

teddy that is a nice looking lathe but out of my price range, thanks anyway

[W.R.Buchanan]

Cane Man: I have little to add to the above discussion as far as what you should be looking for. Any of the brands you mentioned with a QC gearbox and 3/4 jaw chucks and a decent Aloris or KDK style tool post are what you're looking for. However none of them are going to do heavy cuts or bigger threads over 16TPI very well, this requires at least 1 hp.

As far as 220 power goes, if you have an Electric Clothes Dryer outlet in your garage then you're good to go. If you get a bigger machine that requires 220 3phase power, it can be done with an electronic phase converter like an AC-Tec which is about $350. It can also be done with a simple 3 phase motor which has a higher HP output than the machine you want to run. I have ran all of my Hardinge Lathes and my Mills on one just like this for many years and it works just fine.

Remember,,,, I the world of machine tools,,, Bigger is better! Jumping all the way from a 1/2hp machine to a 3/4hp machine is not going to get you very much as far as increased capabilities. 1hp should be the absolute minimum. Also the larger the machine the more rigid it is going to be, and as a result the easier it will be to generate acceptable finishes. Using sand paper to finish your part is not the best way to go about it. The machine should generate an acceptable finish by itself. I would also recommend a machine that has a spindle that takes 5C collets since they are by for the most common and easiest to find in the used tool world.

As a side note: For all of you guys that have machines that take 3C or B&S style collets,,,Hardinge makes virtually every single collet known to man and they are the best there is. Their catalog has literally hundreds of different types.

A decent 13/40-15/40 sized lathe is going to be 3-5hp and will be about the minimum to do any meaningful good quality work without fighting the machine constantly. Also the resale $ will be higher when you get done with it.

The machine you are used to using is so far down the food chain that using a larger machine will be night and day difference. However you still need to actually learn how to use the machine and do different operations effectively and predictably. Otherwise you will be making a lot of scrap and will get discouraged. Lots of info out there on operating machine tools but a class at your local Community College is probably the best place to start.

Hands on with supervision is always the best way to learn a skill.

As far as finding one? you live in CA,,, if it is SoCal like the greater LA area then there are probably 20 decent machines available within 20 miles of your house within your price range. Prices are down right now due the FU Obama Economy so now is a good time to buy something. I don't believe the talk about a shortage of entry level machine tools for one second, I see too many just laying around collecting dust in garages in my own travels, and once you put the word out among your friends you will find something that suits you for what you want to pay.

Do keep in mind,,, That if you accept something that looks dirty and cheap that you will probably have to completely disassemble it to clean all the dirt out and replace any broken parts. Might be a better idea to pay a little more and get a lot more in a machine that is fully operational from the get go. That LeBlond lathe in the picture above would be an excellent machine,,, IF,,, it was completely disassembled painted and all broken or worn parts were replaced. Possibly the bed reground as well since machines like that tend to be very 'Used",,, in other words completely rebuilt. This would take me about 1 month to do right, YMMV.

Look on Craig's List, the Auto Trader, local newspapers, and ask all of your friends to keep an eye out.

As far as tooling, collets and such watch Reliable Tool on Ebay or just go to their website. They are located in El Monte CA.

Hope some of this helps you realize your dream.

Randy

[Cane_man]

thanks for the info Randy, i would want a machine that could thread 7/8-14, without the tool post flexing and stopping the motor

i live 2 hours north of LA but am willing to drive for the right machine... seems like all the decent lathes are down in that area as i have been looking at CL for a few weeks.

CC found a nice but older SB 9A 3-1/2' bed out near Hemet, quick change gear, 110V... haggling on the price but not sure yet if the deal will go through...

great insights this gives me more to think about for sure... not in a hurry as half the fun is looking for the lathe...

[smokeywolf]

Randy, I wondered when you'd chime in. I too use my 220 single phase dryer outlet to power my rotary phase converter and in turn my Bridgeport and Webb/Mori Seiki 17/25 - 40 engine lathe.

smokeywolf

[W.R.Buchanan]

Smokey: Nice lathe! I'd love to have a Mori Seki engine lathe. They are arguably the best engine lathe ever made. Certainly the best made since 1975. I have a buddy that has the Webb copy just like yours. He won't let me or anyone else run it but him. Very protective!

Little more of a commitment than I think Cane Man is ready for.

Randy

[smokeywolf]

It's a wonderful machine. It does have good mass; about 5700 pounds. I still have two things to add to it; DRO and a taper attachment. Right now, if I need to generate a taper it's either the compound or shift the tailstock off center. My DRO right now consists of a Trav-A-Dial on the carriage and the graduations on the cross-slide hand wheel's micrometer collar.
It's other attribute which is helpful is, next to the old Hendey gear head lathe that I used to run at MGM, the WEBB might be the quietest engine lathe I've run. Being that I'm sometimes machining at midnight, I don't have to worry about disturbing the neighbors or my own household.

smokeywolf

[Cane_man]

almost bought a Logan 830 today for $750, good price in my market... really good shape with little tooling but it was 1/2hp and 3/4" hole thru the spindle and a little too large for what i was looking for... i will keep looking

edit: may buy it this weekend, hole thru spindle is 1.5", quick change gear box, pretty clean for a 1950s era lathe

[Cane_man]

Logan 830 11x42



edit: there was a broken gear not known when the lathe was posted on CL, of course its the only gear i need for the 14 threads per inch gear! made me feel that there were probably other issues not yet known so i passed

looking at a Logan 210 right now that is super clean, no quick change gears but i am wondering if that is really a big deal or not?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes it is a big deal. You want a QC lathe. messing with change gears gets old real fast and that's if you actually get all the Change Gears in the deal.

As I said in my earlier post, you can pretty much resign yourself to completely disassembling and reassembling any older machine you get, unless it looks really nice to begin with.(as in someone else already took it apart and re painted it.) That Logan in the pic above would clean up into a nice garage type machine. The broken gear is not the end of the world either. It might take a little Google work to find one but I'm sure they are out there. If worse came to worse there are other gears available that could be modified easily to do the same job.

The problem we run into here on this forum when advising people on which machines are best for their intended uses, is we as machinists (the Advisors) have very deeply seated ideas of what we want in a machine tool, based on experience. This may or may not be attainable or even desirable to the individual(the advisee) who is just starting out and wants to learn machine work in his garage.

This is why I always recommend a College Course in machine tool operation first before spending money on something that won't do what you need. Once you get a feel for running a real machine then the idea of having a small machine will go out the window unless all you want to do is small projects. I know a guy who builds his own Model Airplane engines on a 8" German Combo Machine, and he is a world champion. I also know that if he lived in a house with a garage instead of an apartment he'd have a proper lathe and milling machine.

I know another guy who makes microscopic Model Airplane engines that run on CO2 and power little indoor airplanes with wingspans down to 6" or even less. Needless to say the biggest parts he is making are in the 1/4" range, and he uses a Levin lathe which with all the tooling he has would set you back $15 grand, and that doesn't even include the Microscope you need to see what you are doing.

His little engines are Jewelry!

For what you want to do,,, IE making swaging dies, you will need at least a 1HP machine and 3HP would be better, simply because of the threading. A 7/8-14 thread is a fairly decent sized thread, and as the cuts get deeper the HP requirements increase. Having higher HP available means that the spindle speed stays the same thruout the cut,( constant torque) as opposed to being dragged down by the cut. This produces a better finish on your threads. Also a larger machine is going to be more ridgid which also will aid in generating better finishes.

Another way to go would be to make your dies out of pre-threaded stock in which case any of the smaller machines could do the rest of the work.

The actual size difference between the smaller machine and the larger one is not that much when you consider it. But the way the machine works is way different.

In machine tool land "bigger is better," and that's pretty much all there is to it. Still within your price range, a machine similar to the Logan shown above would do the job. You just have to find one that you can live with.

Randy