Marlin 1895 cowboy 26 inch barrel KA BOOM with 405 cast gc boolit, loading 5744

[1bluehorse]

No info on the reloading practise either...type of press used, sequence of loading etc; might get a clue there...I'm also thinking overcharge..usually is.

[JIMinPHX]

split the breech end of the barrell approx 6 inches following the center of the flat

Sounds like extreme overpressure to me. Double charge is the classic mistake that can yield this result.

[Two401Pm]

Sorry Guys For not replying till now.. Have been sick for many days now.. Starting to feel like I may live..I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it..Brass is always prepped and cleaned.. I'm thinking the bullet mold is an rcbs. I was shooting off a bench and sandbags checking for accuracy and loading rounds one at a time.. Rifle was new had less then 200 rounds through it..I have pulled all the other rounds down and all are within a tenth of a grain.26 grains of xmp5744. Two 405 grain bullets in a 45-70 case???? not sure that is possible..Will take pics and try to post.. Thanks for the replys..

[GH1]

If you tumble your brass it's possible there was some tumbler media left over in the case, reducing the volume. Long shot I know, but possible. It's also possible you were distracted during the powder dump phase of your operation and double charged it. Not likely but anything's possible.
Even though you destroyed your rifle, I'm glad you weren't hurt. It could've been so much worse.
GH1

[swheeler]

Sorry Guys For not replying till now.. Have been sick for many days now.. Starting to feel like I may live..I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it..Brass is always prepped and cleaned.. I'm thinking the bullet mold is an rcbs. I was shooting off a bench and sandbags checking for accuracy and loading rounds one at a time.. Rifle was new had less then 200 rounds through it..I have pulled all the other rounds down and all are within a tenth of a grain.26 grains of xmp5744. Two 405 grain bullets in a 45-70 case???? not sure that is possible..Will take pics and try to post.. Thanks for the replys..

Sounds like SEE to me

[I'll Make Mine]

Sounds like SEE to me

Or, there was only one round with whatever problem caused the failure...

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like SEE to me

Sounds like a viable explanation for many KABOOMs. Best way to cause a KB under controlled conditions is a double charge or obstructed bore, even that doesn't always work. I wonder how many are caused by hidden flaws that finally just let go.

[Jbar4Ranch]

I know of a very similar incident with an 1895 here in the Helena area. Call "Dave's Pawn" in Helena, (406) 449-5150, and ask Dave about his kaboom. I know he uses 5744 a lot, and I THINK that's what he was using when he blew his Marlin Cowboy all to hell. He got to keep all his fingers, just a few stitches in his arm & wrist here and there.

[MGySgt]

As I read through this thread I thought that maybe there was media stuck in the case there by reducing the capitity (like was mention in an earlier post).

I have been using corn cob like for ever with no problems at all. Just recently I found a few 45 ACP cases with media in them. When I added the polish to the media, like I have done forever, some of the polish made a clump in the cases and even after shaking the cases to sift the media out of them. While checking the primer pockets to ensure there wasn't any media in the flash hole is when I found it. I checked all the cases that I had already processed and found 2 more that had a clump of media in the case on one side. If you only looked through the flash hole you couldn't see the clump.

Now I look in the flash hole and the mouth of the case for clumped media.

Could there have been media clumped in the 45/70 case that was missed - there by reducing the case capicity? If the OP uses corn cob and a polish - it is possible.

[TXGunNut]

Yes, Sarge, that's possible but I have a similar scenario unrelated to case capacity. The media could obstruct the spark and result in a partial burn and a projectile lodged in the bore. That's why I add polish a few minutes before I add the cases and like you, I check the flash holes before priming.
Based on OP's posts, however, I don't think this was media related. My best guess is a flaw in the steel of the barrel or previous damage finally catching up to the shooter. OTOH I'm warming up to the possibility that sometimes guns just blow up for reasons we don't understand. One benefit is that it makes all who read/hear about them more careful reloaders.

[double8]

Might be crazy to ask, but I'm a noob with cast boolits. Could a gas check come off a boolit and lodge in the bore?

[TXGunNut]

Doubtful, very doubtful. Remember that the gas check is a seal that the rapidly expanding gases are pushing on to send the boolit to the muzzle. On occasion they may not make it to the target but I can't imagine a properly fit one lodging in the bore, if it did I doubt it would cause much pressure buildup when the next round is fired. Worst case SWAG is a minor bulge, not a KABOOM.

[Ragnarok]

A lot of the problem with KABOOOMS is that the offending cartridge is blown to smithereens...so no real evidence unless another cartridge from the same source reveals anything.

I also believe a defective barrel slips through on occasion. Here is a link to an interesting 'KABOOM'...one that I would presume involved a dud barrel....http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_33/13...it_in_two.html

[390ish]

I had a catasrophic kaboom with a Ross rifle about 1.5 years ago. 2/3 of the receiver and the first four inches of the the top half of the barrel were gone. Was shooting 5744 and cast boolits. Gun had been rebarrelled and there might have been issues of cracking in the receiver from the barrel being put in too tight. That was the theory of an engineering buddy of mine who looked at the pieces, he saw where oil had penetrated cracks on the bottom side of the receiver -- something that would not have likely happened during the explosion, but over time. Heck, I had never taken the stock off the action, Had shot it for years with the same load and no problems.

I posted what happened and the main response I got from folks on boards were comments that really wanted to reinforce the theory that my reloading technique was at fault. I can understand that because people want feel secure in the thought that if they folllow the rules that nothing will happen to them like a kaboom. It needs to be the operator's fault or everyone is in danger. I get it.

Looking back on my experience and after doing a lot of research on the possibility of an overcharge, SEE and lots of other possibilities, I think my experience boiled down to lack of proper neck tension. I had used a .312 expander on .309 sized bullets. The Alox had held them in place well enough for me to apply a crimp, but looking at the loaded ammo, it was more of false crimp than anything. The bullets could be pushed down and/or removed with very little effort. I think in my case that the primer going off pushed the boolit well into the rifiling just prior to ignition of the powder, creating an obstructed bore scenario.

I would ask that you consider if this might be something that could have happened or contributed to your incident. I am glad you were not seriously injured. A real rifle kaboom can be a life changing experience. I still use 5744, but i almost flinch when I take it off the shelf. Your mind does not revisiting even a portion of a bad experience, at least mine doesn't. Good luck.

[fouronesix]

Might be crazy to ask, but I'm a noob with cast boolits. Could a gas check come off a boolit and lodge in the bore?

Read post #11 this thread.

Very unlikely for a gas check to be shucked off the bullet and left in the bore with that type charge- unless it fell off the bullet and was in the powder charge when the round was fired.

Even some of the half-jacket bullets can leave the jacket in the bore. However, it most commonly happens when shooting very light charges in revolvers. Even if a gas check or half jacket is in the bore it doesn't have enough mass to cause that type damage. The most it would do would be to leave an ironed in crease in the bore wall where the the bullet ran over it- and chances are good there would be no evidence or damage.

[KirkD]

..I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it..

I'm a little too nervous to reload that way. I'd be afraid I might get forgetful and drop two charges into one of them. I like to charge a number of cases first then, before seating a bullet, I put the cases side by side and look inside each one to make sure they are all the same. That way, if I ever get forgetful and drop two charges into one case, it will stand out like a sore thumb. I am very, very nervous about loading one cartridge at a time and never do it except in load development, and then I am anal about extreme concentration so I don't drop in a double charge in a moment of distraction.

I am doubtful about cleaning media still in the case reducing capacity enough to let 'er blow. I have used cream of wheat filler in 45-70 cartridges with IMR 3031 and shot quite a few without blowing up my gun. Finally, I got nervous enough about this to quit. I pulled the bullets and you know what? That cream of wheat was a solid plug. I had to dig it out with a unfolded paper clip. After that, I doubt a little cleaning media could be worse than a solid plug of COW.

[oldred]

I had a catasrophic kaboom with a Ross rifle about 1.5 years ago. Was shooting 5744 and cast boolits.

I was going to say something yesterday but after thinking about it decided it might be a bit out of line to do so, but now there it is again- 5744! Looks as if we have at least two and possibly three (one poster was not certain 5744 was used) "events" in this one thread and I have read of several more in the last couple of years, all using light 5744 charges in 45/70s and one in the very similar 45/90. Is this because it's so easy to double charge or maybe just coincidence? Or could it be there's really something insidious going on with light charges of 5744 in those big straight walled cases? In none of these instances was a firm explanation found so to me that's it, I was already nervous about using 5744 and since there's quite a choice of other powders, good choices I might add, I see no reason to take any more chances until these "events" are explained. There's just too much at risk and too many unanswered questions!

[MGySgt]

I am doubtful about cleaning media still in the case reducing capacity enough to let 'er blow. I have used cream of wheat filler in 45-70 cartridges with IMR 3031 and shot quite a few without blowing up my gun. Finally, I got nervous enough about this to quit. I pulled the bullets and you know what? That cream of wheat was a solid plug. I had to dig it out with a unfolded paper clip. After that, I doubt a little cleaning media could be worse than a solid plug of COW.

Difference - your load was worked up with the COW. And the COW was between the powder and the boolit (bullet?) the round with media inadvertantly left in the case was not worked up with the reduced case capicity. One this n I have learned is that powders work great within the confines that they were manufactured to workin. Once you get out of that area pressures rise dramaticly. Don't belive me? Take one of your standard loads in a straight walled case and seat the boolit .20 deeper and see if your pressure doesn't increase and have a flattend primer/hard extraction/bulged case/etc.

Many semi auto 45's have been ruined because the boolit was pushed deeper into the case when the nose of the boolit hit the feed ramp and due to not enough neck tension the boolit was seated deeper in the case causing a very high chambe pressure.

Now that that 45/70 with a light load and redure the case capicity by 30% - what do you think would happen?

I don't know if there was cleaning media in the case or not - Just letting some people know that it can happen and it could cause a kaboom.

[FergusonTO35]

Hmm, think I'll stick with 4895. It seems to be a very forgiving powder and is nice and bulky.

[oldred]

Hmm, think I'll stick with 4895. It seems to be a very forgiving powder and is nice and bulky.

I like H4895 also but lately I have become quite fond of Varget, it fills the case the same as the H4895 and seems to burn a bit cleaner, still not real clean but it has been consistently accurate for me. About all I am loading for right now (in rifles anyway) is 45/70 and 45/90 and while I certainly could be wrong I have heard enough about 5744 in these big cases to make me leary of it,what I have left is going to the back of the shelf and I may never use it.