45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
While we are talking of boolit design - I made my PC boolit taper so as to fit the throat and leade (and unsized neck). This means that the leade engages the boolit over its taper simultaneously and that the boolit engages the rifling progressively to full depth toward the rear where the remainder of it gets swaged to groove diam. A low speed boolit works just fine and 'high' speed boolits seemed to be accurate so I am assuming the principle works. But with PP, the paper needs to be over a bore sized shank so as to cut properly. This means I must either shorten the boolit or leave some lead exposed to partially engage the rifling or go to a bore riding nose. Exposed lead will need lube. I'm not sure what my next boolit should look like!
Any thoughts?
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Hi 303Guy. No you don't want any lead touching the bore for the 1600FPS loads and up. And there is another thing to consider, it is traditional to say that the rifling 'cuts' the patch because the deep BP rifling appears to do just that from the recovered confetti in front of the bore. However, I and other smokeless shooters that do not have deep rifling still shed our patches at the muzzle as very small paper flakes. Too small to call confetti, its just paper dust. Again, we have discussed this in earlier threads trying to determine the mechanism. I think it will all be theory until we can photograph a PP bullet as it leaves the muzzle. Some say that the centrifugal force throws the cut patch off. But some rifling and polygonal barrels do not cut the patch. Centrifugal force could still have some effect though. Others propose that the muzzle blast shreds the patch from behind as the bullet leaves the muzzle. And still others think that the airflow over the bullet tear off the patch. I actually think muzzle blast has the greatest effect, at least with my rifle. I have 6 very narrow and shallow lands that could NOT cut through more than one layer of patch. and my patches are blown to dust right at the muzzle. I tried to capture some in an 8" cardboard tube sprayed with adhesive but only got paper dust. and not much of that.
You said: But with PP, the paper needs to be over a bore sized shank so as to cut properly. This means I must either shorten the boolit or leave some lead exposed to partially engage the rifling or go to a bore riding nose. Exposed lead will need lube. I'm not sure what my next boolit should look like!
I do know that as mentioned above the Windrider bullet paper patch touches and centers on the bore diameter and does not need exposed lead to touch. In other words, the paper is bore riding and not the lead. So nothing cuts that first 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch (depending on how far I cary the patch forward up the ogive. I have done it so far forward the paper started to wrinkle and those patches still shed perfectly.
Sure looking forward to what 45 2.1 draws up, you going to post it for us?
Last edited by windrider919; 06-22-2009 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Add in 45 2.1
45 2.1 emailed me a beautiful boolit. We have a few things to finish up on it and then he will do the deed. This is going to be a great thing if we find a way to get into fruition. Ir will pleasa anyone wanting a 200 grain PP for a .35 as well as the 348 winnie guys....just a win win situation.
Thanks for the explanation, windrider919. That makes life a whole lot easier!
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Something to look at, 0.351" diameter, about 200 gr. cast of soft alloy and very suitable as a plinker/small game boolit out of the 348 Win. This design will probably be available soon to everyone.
45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
Where do you plan to have the case mouth located? I know this bullet is planned for PP so it does not get crimped. So obviously it does not need a crimp groove. I usually just use the crimp groove to locate the proper seating depth anyway. Would this be a base pour or nose pour and if base pour have you considered a HP?
All ya'll get here is the printed word........... The case mouth is at the top lube groove (so to speak) and my PP loads do get crimped into those lube grooves (since the paper shrinks into them and the paper isn't cut in any way. Crimp is not what you think it is at times. You do have to have a smooth inner case mouth when you do this though. The mold will be produced as a base pour and mine will be a four cavity with one of those cavities hollow pointed, although it won't be needed in the PP application.
45 2.1
Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.
Never sleep, never die
Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.
Let's do a 300 grainer (or 250 grs.) too!
We need somebody/something to keep the government (cops and bureaucrats too) HONEST (by non government oversight).
Every "freedom" (latitude) given to government is a loophole in the rule of law. Every loophole in the rule of law is another hole in our freedom. When they even obey the law that is. Too often government seems to feel itself above the law.
We forgot to take out the trash in 2012, but 2016 was a charm! YESSS!
Leftie- you are on your own as to a boolit that heavy.
Some encouraging news for this little project though:
the man making the moulds is yet to arrive on scene as a commercial enterprise in our field. He has been making moulds for quite some time and I have over a dozen of his works of art in my possession that I have aquired over the past couple of years. The way it is looking right now orders could be taken as soon as 2 weeks, and delivery would be about 3 weeks behind that. They should be available as either a 2 or 4 cavity and there may be other odd options for those that feel the need to poke a hole in the front of a soft boolit.
Price would be less than the bigtime custom boys charge and similar to what the other small time talented folks are charging here. I will likely choose a straight 4 cavity mould, but am yet undecided.
He will poke his head in here when the time comes.
Last edited by 357maximum; 06-23-2009 at 04:14 PM. Reason: info added
Here is a picture of a bullet for PP that 45 2.1 helped me work out.
A loaded 458 WinMag round and both a naked bullet and samples of my patches
The cast n shoot diameter is .454, patch to .463 to fit the throat. The grooves are like ranch dogs or Lee Tumble Groove grooves to help hold the patch on for shooting smokeless.
Last edited by windrider919; 06-30-2009 at 04:24 AM.
I couldn't help noticing the folded patch tail so I have attempted to zoom in a little.
It didn't work. But you get the idea!
Last edited by 303Guy; 06-30-2009 at 06:04 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
I too would like one in 250 gr, and if the mold maker made a cherry a couple of lube grooves longer it could be made in two or three weights.
I like yours and 45 2.1 designs Windrider...Who cuts your molds? .....I am interested in these cast to bore dia.+ boolits in several calibers. including the one .357 maximum is proposing....
I am just a beginner with PP (second season) but sure glad to see more people take interest in PP...Keep up the good work!
Mic
I had a brass mould made by Bernie at Old West Bullet Moulds:
http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com/
It is an excellent mould, well machined and turns out premium bullets. He produced it for me in 30 days from the time I sent him the final drawing and payment.
$100.00 for cherry
$105.00 for long bullet double mould
$12.00 shipping
HOWEVER: I also included $18.00 for a set of mould handles which I NEVER received! He had answered my emails within a day during planning and mfg stages but when I wrote to him asking about the missing handles he never answered my several attempts to contact him. I just accepted my loss and went on. Great moulds but not so great service.
Charter member Michigan liars club!
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Consider the clown(s) just one of God's little nettles in the woods, don't let it detract from the beauty. Sooner or latter you are going to run into the nettles regardless of how careful you are."
Beware of man who types much, but says nothing.
Soon to be realized.
Last edited by BABore; 07-25-2011 at 11:03 AM.
LOOKING GOOD BRUCE.THANKS FOR POKIN YOUR HEAD IN ans posting the eye candy.........................THE WHELEN and The MARLIN sit here in eager anticipation.
Last edited by 357maximum; 07-23-2009 at 06:25 PM.
Guys,
FYI. I pm'd Red River Rick and he will make an adjustable wgt. .351 single cav. pp mold for ~$180 Canadian shipped. If I did the conversion correctly, that's about $165 USD.
223tenx
Pete in WV
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |