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Thread: FFL question on a model 1863 falling block rifle

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    FFL question on a model 1863 falling block rifle

    I have recently been thinking about rolling my own paper cartridges and seeing if I can find a falling block reproduction of a Sharps model 1863 target rifle. My question concerns the law for this type of firearm. It is a breech loader but only for black powder. I understand one can load it with loose powder or form a paper cartridge for the black powder load. I am most interested in forming the paper cartridge that is made up of boolit/black powder/thin paper to hold it together. It would then take a cap for the spark to set it off. I am seeking a knowledgeable opinion on this and I'm not trying to circumvent the FFL route. I haven't inquired anywhere else on this and thought I'd ask the great minds here first. Thanks for your opinion.
    Mark 5:34 And He said to her (Jesus speaking), "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace and be healed of your affliction."

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    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    check with both the ATF + your state Attorney Generals office - in my state it would be classed as a modern weapon + require both nics check + state licensing - get your determinations in writing from authorized regulatory sources + do not depend on any internet advise or opinions ! -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

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    Call a ATF office and ask to speak to a enforcement agent. They'll know right off the top of their head.

    The govt. tinkers around with the laws all the time.
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    Boolit Master
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    My understanding is that if it was made before 1898, anyone can have it shipped to them. The date the rifle was made is the determining factor. Sucks for replicas, but they're still firearms. They have to be "antiques" to be exempt. The determining factor for an "antique" is a date of manufacture prior to 1898. Though, if it was made after that, and if it meets certain other criteria, it may be C&R eligible, which would allow you to have it sent directly to you if you have your 03 C&R FFL.
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Forget the ATF, does the seller require it be sent to an FFL?
    That is the question.
    More than likely it will have to be sent to an FFL because it is a breech loader and newly made, if it were original then no FFL.
    We have gotten a lot of bad rulings from the ATF because of questions best not asked.
    Just remember, everything is legal until a law or ruling is made against it.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by smoked turkey View Post
    I have recently been thinking about rolling my own paper cartridges and seeing if I can find a falling block reproduction of a Sharps model 1863 target rifle. My question concerns the law for this type of firearm. It is a breech loader but only for black powder. I understand one can load it with loose powder or form a paper cartridge for the black powder load. I am most interested in forming the paper cartridge that is made up of boolit/black powder/thin paper to hold it together. It would then take a cap for the spark to set it off. I am seeking a knowledgeable opinion on this and I'm not trying to circumvent the FFL route. I haven't inquired anywhere else on this and thought I'd ask the great minds here first. Thanks for your opinion.
    State laws vary, however, for Federal it is classed the same as a muzzle loading rifles and cap and ball revolvers. No FFL required. Just check how major Companies sell them. https://muzzle-loaders.com/products/...odel-s-766-054

    The BATF gives lots of incorrect information depending on the agent. FFL holders tend to recommend what makes them money. Places like MidwayUSA have done the legal research to get it right.

    https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/t...e-usps.172116/
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-03-2024 at 05:48 AM.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Man R-71's Avatar
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    The 1859/63 as long as it’s still a paper cartridge and cap gun is just like a muzzleloader and should be able to purchased similarly. Some states may have their own rules.

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    Boolit Master elmacgyver0's Avatar
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    Ok, so who is the vendor selling these?

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    Boolit Master Moleman-'s Avatar
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    The one I had back in the early 90's was a non FFL gun. As much as I liked it I also couldn't hit squat with it. It was me and not the gun, as my buddy could shoot it well. So down the road it went.

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    If you get one, get a good one. The ones Shiloh make will work correctly. Either the currently made ones or the ones from Farmingdale, NY. The Italian ones are designed differently and all of them need work to operate correctly. There are a couple of gunsmiths that work on them at the moment and one is fighting cancer so your options are limited. Keep this in mind when you are shopping and looking at prices.

    Bill Goodman at Goodman Guns is a good resource for finding one if you don't want to wait three years for Shiloh to make one for you.

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    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdgabbard View Post
    My understanding is that if it was made before 1898, anyone can have it shipped to them. The date the rifle was made is the determining factor. Sucks for replicas, but they're still firearms. They have to be "antiques" to be exempt. The determining factor for an "antique" is a date of manufacture prior to 1898. Though, if it was made after that, and if it meets certain other criteria, it may be C&R eligible, which would allow you to have it sent directly to you if you have your 03 C&R FFL.
    not true in many states - here + in some other areas if it takes any cartridge still available it must go thru a licensed dealer - even civil war era .22 revolvers are classified as modern firearms as are all post 1898 non cartridge weapons - state + local laws can be stricter than federal law, but they cannot conflict with them -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

    as they say in latin

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub dirtball's Avatar
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    I have purchased an E. Remington & Sons Hepburn rifle in 40-65, the serial number showed it was made in late 1880 or early 1881. The ONLY original part on the gun was the receiver. It was shipped from an FFL dealer direct to my front door.
    Also purchased a Remington 700 ML action (original model 700, NO Bolt Lugs) from a dealer, also shipped directly to my house.
    I assume these dealers new what the regs were.

    Dave
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  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy freakonaleash's Avatar
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    Much confusion over this. Anything made before 1899 is an antique and requires no FFL to be involved. It doesn't matter what caliber it is. That being said, some dealers ship ALL guns to an FFL. I recently bought a M1871 Peabody in .43 Spanish and the shop insisted it go to an FFL. It didn't need to, but it did. These supposed restrictions on "commonly available ammunition are ridiculous. Try to buy .43 Spanish ammo at Walmart.....

    Also, I have bought antique Winchesters in 45 70 and needed no FFL. 45 70 is commonly available, so there's that too. Quite honestly, these laws are ridiculous. I bought a 1895 Marlin in 40 82 made in 1903 and needed an FFL, bought one in 45 70 made in 1896 and needed no FFL. What's the point? Same gun, just a different manufacture date. Besides, the remember the "Shall not infringe " rights we're supposed to have. All of these restrictions are constitutionally illegal.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy freakonaleash's Avatar
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    Woops I missed the OP's point. Being this gun doesn't take a cartridge it should not need an FFL, no matter when it was made or what end you load it from..

  15. #15
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakonaleash View Post
    Woops I missed the OP's point. Being this gun doesn't take a cartridge it should not need an FFL, no matter when it was made or what end you load it from..
    jn many states like mine even post 1898 non cartridge arms require state licensing, background checks, + transaction must go thru licensed dealers -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

    as they say in latin

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by schutzen-jager View Post
    not true in many states - here + in some other areas if it takes any cartridge still available it must go thru a licensed dealer - even civil war era .22 revolvers are classified as modern firearms as are all post 1898 non cartridge weapons - state + local laws can be stricter than federal law, but they cannot conflict with them -
    That is a STATE REQUIREMENT, not a Federal Requirement. Where it concerns federal laws, modern firearms are those manufactured after 1898. And thus are the only ones the GCA is not concerned with. What your state requires is a different issue, and one that really is better suited to someone living within your particular state.

    Quote Originally Posted by freakonaleash View Post
    Woops I missed the OP's point. Being this gun doesn't take a cartridge it should not need an FFL, no matter when it was made or what end you load it from..
    I missed this one too. Looking VERY briefly at Missouri's statutes it doesn't appear it would be considered a modern firearm even under state law, which carves out exceptions for breachloading firearms. But again, he should check with someone local.
    Currently looking for a Lyman/Ideal 311419 Mold - PM if you have one you'd like to get rid of!

    JDGabbard's Feedback Thread

    "A hand on a gun is better than a cop on the phone," Jerry Ellis, Oklahoma State House of Representatives.

    The neighbors refer to me affectionately as, "The nut up on the ridge with the cannon." - MaxHeadSpace.

    Jdgabbard's very own boolit boxes pattern!

  17. #17
    Boolit Man Hondolane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmacgyver0 View Post
    Ok, so who is the vendor selling these?
    https://shilohrifle.com/rifles/1863-...porting-rifle/

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    According to the Q&A Page on the sight: https://shilohrifle.com/ordering-info-and-instructions/

    Please be advised that when picking up your rifle from the factory, we will run the N.I.C.S. background check. This has sometimes caused delays in which the customers have had to wait up to 7 days, if it has to run over the weekend.
    Doing an NICS check is a pretty good indicator you'll need to send it to an FFL of your choosing...
    Currently looking for a Lyman/Ideal 311419 Mold - PM if you have one you'd like to get rid of!

    JDGabbard's Feedback Thread

    "A hand on a gun is better than a cop on the phone," Jerry Ellis, Oklahoma State House of Representatives.

    The neighbors refer to me affectionately as, "The nut up on the ridge with the cannon." - MaxHeadSpace.

    Jdgabbard's very own boolit boxes pattern!

  19. #19
    Boolit Bub dirtball's Avatar
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    The key words in to OP are "Reproduction" and "Breech Loader", ANY Agent you talk to is going to say YES it mst be shipped to an FFL.

    Dave
    Last edited by dirtball; 04-03-2024 at 05:07 PM.
    "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."
    --Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX)

  20. #20
    Boolit Master schutzen-jager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdgabbard View Post
    That is a STATE REQUIREMENT, not a Federal Requirement. Where it concerns federal laws, modern firearms are those manufactured after 1898. And thus are the only ones the GCA is not concerned with. What your state requires is a different issue, and one that really is better suited to someone living within your particular state.



    I missed this one too. Looking VERY briefly at Missouri's statutes it doesn't appear it would be considered a modern firearm even under state law, which carves out exceptions for breachloading firearms. But again, he should check with someone local.
    state laws are legally allowed to be much stricter then federal law as long as they do not conflict with it - the state can add requirements to ownership by law - awhile back several distributers were notified that shipment of 1891, 1893, 1895, 7X57 mausers is a feloney in a number of states even though they were pre 1898 vintage -
    never pick a fight with an old man - if he is too old to fight he will just kill you -
    in this current crisis our government is not the solution , it is the problem ! -

    ILLEGITIMI NON CARBORUNDUM

    as they say in latin

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BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check