Heavy Slug Load Help

[Acknott]

Hello, have been absent from the forum for a while, I am looking for some help with a Heavy full bore load. I have no way to test pressures but have found a good load for my sabot loads. Now I am making a heavy full bore slug based off of the accurate Dixie Tusker mold. It will just be that mold but the solid base I stead of hollow, pure lead, no ww or anything. I am planning on 3 inch shells, either Cheddite, Fiochi, or Federal. I'm thinking 35gr of IMR ue or Alliant Blue Dot. Anyone think that will work? I also cast and shoot muzzleloaders so have black powder and 209A primers on hand. Any recommended charges with black powder or other smokeless powders?

[longbow]

Many years ago I loaded some 800+ gr. slugs I was sent to try out. I don't recall load details and I don't think I recorded details but... I used equivalent weight birdshot load data using Blue Dot. I had no sticky extraction or any indication of high pressure.

It is generally accepted that slug loads produce less pressure that shot loads due to less bore friction so safe to use equivalent weight birdshot loads for slugs.

Not sure what a solid pure lead Tusker will weigh but I'd think around 700+ grs. since the HB Tusker is 600 grs. You may be able to use Dixie Terminator load data if the solid Tusker is under 730 grs.

Another possible source of data is the old H&H Pardox slug data. The Paradox slugs ran around 740 grs.

There may be some info on nitroexpress.com or doublegunshop.com.

You might also try looking up Blood Trail's threads on slug shooting. Seems to me he has tested some pretty heavy slugs and posted load data.

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

Blackpowder, load data doesn't really matter. Even 250 grains of black powder is not going to hurt modern shotgun. It might hurt you though.

I've shot an Accurate 770 grain slug with both bluedot and blackpowder. If using blackpowder, lube the slug with a blackpowder lube. A lube soaked wool wad under the slug would not hurt either. Crisco works well, and mixed 50/50 with beeswax, makes a good bullet lube. For smokeless powder like bluedot, I've shot them without any lube at all with no leading. I normally give them one coat of Alox.

For wads, I use an X12X gas seal, and however many nitro cards I need to get the level where I want it. No need to get any more fancy than that.

I would suggest you start at 30 gr Bluedot, and work up from there. 32-33 grains is a pretty good range, with a ton of thump. 35 grains should be safe, but don't take my word for it. I don't know how much your slug weighs. Look up bird shot data for a similar weight than the slug.

[iomskp]

Acknott if you have a look at the nitro express forum there are lots of articles on reloading 12 bore slugs, there is one article written by David Commens that is quite good, all the best and good luck with the loads.

[Acknott]

Thank you all! I have checked out some of the sites, and used the search functions as well. Does anyone know where to find the Dixie Terminator load data? Or the Paradox load data?

[longbow]

Okay, here's what I have copied from this site and others. I cannot vouch for safety as I have not used any of these loads yet so USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Most of these loads are for heavier payloads than what you will be shooting but do give an idea of what may be possible and safe.

Exception is this one which I have used... I started out several years ago with somewhat heavier than normal 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. slugs so used Precision Rifle's 610 gr. PileDriver full bore slug info which I have attached.

Piledriver_1.pdfPileDriver_2.pdf PileDriver_3.pdf

Below is what I have copied but not used to date though 2 ball and Tri-Ball loads are in my near future:

1st post is from turbo1889 who used to post here a lot and you can (should be able to) search and find his many threads and load data.

2nd post is from James Gates of Dixie Slugs for buckshot, Lee slugs and the Tri-Ball. Tri-Ball loads have been put together and used successfully by several people here and there is a current thread "Tri-Ball Revisited" on the main page.

3rd post is is from James Gates for the Dixie Terminator.

4th post is from ASSASSIN for his 2 ball load.

5th post is from Greg Sappington for his monster 1043 gr. slug.

Again, I cannot vouch for these loads so before you do any loading and more importantly before you pull a trigger, do some comparison checks/cross referencing for equivalent weight load data.

Oh... forgot! Check the Ed Hubel thread here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...FH-Slug-Tester

I believe Ed posted some load data in read which is very long!

That should keep you busy for a while!

Longbow



1) turbo1889 load data for A.C.E. 740 gr. slug

Loads were all Blue Dot loads with charges in the 28-35 grain range

Also loaded over 21 grs. Unique

Also 35 grains Herco, Ballistic Products X12X gas seal, Ballistic Products 12ga x 1/2" Hard Card Wad, Slug (turbo bell preference), Crimp


2) From James Gates of Dixie Slugs:

2 3/4" Cheddite Hull Ched209 BlueDot 30.5gr FS12 gas seal Teflon wrapper Lead grains 773 #00 3x5=15 Buckshot Pressure 9400 1060fps
2 3/4" Cheddite Hull Ched209 Hodgdon Clays 21.0gr PT1205 1oz Lee Key Slug Pressure 9500 1300fps
2 3/4" Cheddite Hull Ched209 Alliant Red Dot 21.9gr PT1205 1oz Lee Key Slug Pressure 10600 1370fps
2 3/4" Cheddite Hull Ched209 Alliant Bullseye 25.0gr PT1205 1oz Lee Key Slug Pressure 10700 1450fps

The recipe for Tri-Ball is as follows:
(1) 12 ga 3" Cheddite, Fiocchi, or Federal Gol Metal hull
(2) 28/29 grs of Alliant Blue Dot
(3) Precision Relooding Orange Wad TUPRWW123
(4) Three .600" hard cast round balls
(5) Precision Reloading buffer
(6) Thin overshot wad.
The buffer is to be vibrated around the balls. The ball tapped tight in the wad so the bottom ball is snug in the wad. Wads are dusted with Motor Mica

The sequence of loading the balls into the wad (in the hull) should be:
(1) drop the balls in and tap them.
(2) vibrate 2.2 cc of the buffer in.
(3) Hold a wood dowel on top of the balls and vibreate.
(4) add enough buffe to just cover the ball.
(5) Tap again
The key to the entire operation is to be sure there is no buffer under the bottom ball....or between the balls.
As the man says...try different choke constrictions! If you get two ball cutting out in the target, but one ball out a few incches....too tight a choke! Ideal is when the balls make a nice even triangle.


3) Dixie Slugs Terminator Load Data:

Greetings again, Here's what James wrote about his 730 grain slug loads in another forum.

"Since I am in business to sell ammo to hunters...and want/need repeat business...I did drop the Express (1300'/? and Exterminator (1400'/") using the .730"-730 terminator bullet due to excessive recoil.
The following loads in 12 ga 3" mag with the .730"-730 gr Terminator from a 20" Hastings rifled barrel:
(1) 40 grs of Alliant Blue Dot @ 1200'/"
(2) 42 grs of Alliant Blue Dot @ 1300'/"
(3) 44 grs of Alliant Blue Dot @ 1400'/"
These loads were put in a Cheddite 12 3' hull, X12X op wad, a fillier wads.
These loads wou;d be very close to what would be in a 2 3/4" hulls by reducing the load by about 2 grs and working up.
I can not load 2 3/4" loads as it would need a complete re-setup in the shop and that cost money/time for what I could see the loads for.
There is am outfit in Colorado (I think) that turns out braas hulls the have the same wall thickness as plastic. This is the prpblem with Magtech....thin walls.



4) ASSASSIN's 2 Ball Load 0.690":

Longbow,

the only size round balls I have ever had any good luck with, was with pure lead .690 diameter RB's.

HULL: Activ 12 ga. 3"

PRIMER: CCI-209

POWDER: Blue Dot / ** grains / not listed because powder charge is a little higher than what you normally see listed.

WAD: X12X gas seal from BPI / "2" or "3" 12 ga. Nitro Cards sitting directly on top of the X12X gas seal. The exact number of Nitro Cards used will depend on the powder charge, and weather or not your Round Balls have sprues.

MYLAR WRAP fully encircled inside of hull / sitting directly on top of the Nitro Cards.

"2" .690 Round Lead Balls / the first RB is sitting on top of the nitro card, with the sprue facing straight down, and resting on top of the Nitro Cards.

The second RB is sitting on top of the first ball, with the sprue also sitting directly on the top center of the bottom RB.

The hull is then roll crimped with a tapered roll crimper.



5) Greg Sappington's 1043 gr. Slug:

Okay Guys, here is the first round of pressure testing!

Greg's 1043 gr. slug

Loaded into a 3.00" Fiocchi Hull
Fiocchi 616 Primer
X12X Gas seal
.170" Waxed Nitro card
3/32" Cork
.125" Waxed Nitro card

The only variable was the powder charge:
48.0 Gr-938 FPS @ 8333PSI
50.0 Gr-986 FPS @ 9466PSI
52.0 Gr-1017 FPS @ 10,033PSI
54.0 Gr-1053 FPS @10,200PSI

The Powder was IMR 4227.
I can go higher, obviosly the pressure is low enough. Recoil will be heavy, but it was intended as a Bear protection load.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[Blood Trail]

Oh man, loads of good info on here. I’ll check back in when we got power. This snow and Texas got things crazy. All the gas stations are out of gas. No propane to be found and we’ve been without water and power for the last 48 hrs.

It was -1 this morning. I’m having a blast! It’s like I’m camping in my own house. Now my wife, on the other hand....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RMc]

Longbow.

I recognized this as a buckshot load from Ballistic Products Load of the Week.

Load# 101111-2561 LEAD BUCK OO

HULL: MultiMetal CHEDDITE 12-gauge 2.75”

PRIMER: CH209

PROPELLANT: Alliant BLUEDOT 30.5 Grains

WAD: FS12+Teflon® coil – trim ¼” from wide edge, coil & place on top of FS12

SHOT: OO lead buck stacked layers of 3, 5 layers =15 pellets. (approx. 775 gr.)

BUFFER: none

FOLD CRIMP: 6-point

Result: PSI 9400 FPS 1060

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load11-17-10.htm


And a quick search found the PT1205 one ounce lee Slug loads at:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/load14_04_25.htm

Regards

[longbow]

RMc:

Thanks for confirmation. If BPI published it then it is known to be safe. Hah! I may even have that saved as I look through the "Load of the Week" archives and copy any that look useful. What I posted above is all reposted by others and as I said, I have not checked to see if they are duplicates or reasonable loads. I have a large collection of downloaded info and when I go to load something up I look through then cross check if I want to use anything I have copied from any source that may be questionable.

I know I have the BPI slug load data saved.

While there is a fair bit of published load data for slugs from 7/8 oz. to 1 3/8 oz. there isn't much for heavier slugs... or not that I have found anyway. I have used equivalent weight birdshot load data for slugs over 600 grs. or some load data provided by reliable sources. Then of course there is the issue of obtaining correct powder and components because the data is usually limited to one powder. James Gats seemed to like Blue Dot which fortunately I have and have been able to get occasionally. I am sure there are lots of other powders that are suitable too but...?

turbo1889 liked Steel and I see BT using Longshot under fairly heavy slugs. It would be nice to collect a variety of info and recipes for suitable powders to use with slugs over 525 grs. (Lyman sabot slug) as that seems to be where info thins out. Not sure if the new(er than mine) BPI slug loading manual has any/many heavy slug recipes. Most manuals I have limit out at the Lyman sabot slug at 525 grs. for a variety of loads then maybe a few for something like the 1 3/8 oz. Gualandi DGS slug.

Also, there are likely other useful powders for heavy slugs even if they are not high performance loads, like the 21.5 grs. of Unique under a 750 gr. Paradox boolit as used by Ross Seyfried in his 2004 article on his H&H Paradox gun.

When supplies and selection are scarce it's nice to know what can be useful even if not producing top end performance.

Longbow

[Acknott]

Thank you Longbow, that is exactly what I was looking for. I am going to use the Terminator data as a starting point. Now to find Cheddite 3 inch hulls somewhere!

[longbow]

A couple of adders:

James says below the load data that you can use 2 3/4" hulls by reducing powder by a couple of grains.

My comment... 44 grs. Blue Dot under a 730 gr. slug seems a wee bit high to me! The Precision Rifle load data I used for 0.735" RB's was the PileDriver info I posted above which is for a 610 gr. boolit using up to 44 grs. Blue Dot at 12,359 PSI so pressure has to increase with 730 grs. of lead! Yes, Dixie used 3" hulls and Precision Rifle used 2 3/4" hulls but still. I'd be starting somewhere around 30 to 32 grs. Blue Dot under a 730 gr. slug (per turbo1889 A.C.E. slug info) then working up. If you get sticky extraction STOP!

Even using the lighter 0.735" RB at about 580 grs. I went up to 40 grs. of BD and that was enough recoil for me. I backed down to 38 grs. to minimize reoil induced brain damage!

Use these loads at your own discretion!

Play but play safe!

Longbow

[Acknott]

Thank you again Longbow. My next question is how do you determine which hull to use with these heavy loads? I have found some good data on top of what you have posted but most of them dont state whether they are 2 3/4 or 3" or what hull and primer were used

[longbow]

I have only loaded 2 3/4" hulls but with slugs of up to 800+ grs. Mostly my slugs run in the 450 to 600 gr. range.

To be honest, I have not quite figured out how a hull knows if it is 2 3/4" or 3" with regards to powder and payload. The hull shape is the same and the powder charge sits in the same size "container"... assuming both length hulls are same brand/design. When you have too much "stuff" to fit in 2 3/4" then it makes sense that you need the longer hull.

In any case, not trying to confuse things or steer you wrong. It seems that it does make a different so best to use published or known safe loads for the hull length you are using.

I have used all straight walled hulls, so large volume hulls. I started out my most recent resurgence into slug shooting with Fiocchi straight walled 2 3/4" hulls. Currently I am mostly using Federal field hulls but again straight walled. The Precision Rifle load I posted says to use any straight walled hull and primer of your choice which I find a bit weird. The straight walled hulls do come with different thickness base wads so that means you may have to adjust wad column length which is easy but primers can make up to 3000 PSI difference to a given load with primer substitution. When you are running 12,000 PSI an increase of 3000 PSI would be unwelcome! 209 primers are not all the same! Winchester 208's are "mild" and Federal 209A's are "hot".

Tom Armbrust posted a primer/pressure comparison which is a good thing to read:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

To expand a bit in case you are unaware, shotshell reloading is not a lot like metallic cartridge reloading in that you can work up loads for metallic cartridge by watching pressure signs, mostly primers starting to flatten. Not quite the same with shotshell reloading. I won't say there are not pressure signs but they are not as easy to determine and if you get say sticky extraction then you are well over pressure (so I have read and understand) so do not keep shooting rounds that are hard to extract!

So back to your question... I'd recommend straight walled hulls for any heavy slug load. Slugs R Us https://slugsrus.com/Load-Data-12GA.html recommends Cheddite hulls, Precision Rifle recommended straight walled hulls and many slug loads are listed in straight walled hulls. Same applies to buckshot loads. Having said that, there are listings for slugs and buckshot in Win AA tapered wall trap hulls. I use straight walled hulls.

Blood Trail has pressure testing equipment so he may have some insight into any pressure changes that may occur using the smaller volume tapered hulls like Win AA and Remington.

Once Texas thaws out he may be back on line. In the meantime I hope he and his family... and everyone else in Texas is okay and things get better soon!

Longbow

[Acknott]

Ok, so given the same primer, would all straight walled shells have similar pressures? Say you were using Cheddite straight walled data and couldn't get those hulls, but used a Fiocchi straight walled instead with the same primer and same load?

[Acknott]

Also, would pressures be less given a lighter projectile? Say using the data for the 1043gr slug with a 730-740gr slug?

[gpidaho]

Acknott: What shotgun are you using for your tests? I assume it's smooth bore as the OP is a slug or buckshot question. Gp

[longbow]

I'll say yes and yes to the two questions.

If using straight walled hulls of same interior shape the only real difference is basewad thickness which affects overall load capacity so if your reference hull has thinner basewad you will have to use more filler cards or if thicker then less filler wads.

Dave in Arizona has a good reference for comparing hull volumes:

https://pipesf16.wordpress.com/12-ga-2-75-hull-volumes/

If substituting I would drop the charge by maybe 10% then work up watching specifically for sticky extraction.

If the projectile is lighter then yes pressure should be lower assuming the slug isn't significantly over bore diameter. What you may have to worry about there is not enough pressure to get good powder burn. I have downloaded Blue Dot for slugs around 1 oz. and gotten some very erratic combustion and lots of unburned powder in the bore. So using a charge for a 1043 gr. slug under a 730 gr. slug may give similar results especially since Greg was using IMR4227 which is very slow for 12 ga.

I'll also add something I think is an issue but have no proof and that is that if you are using load data for a cushion leg wad but not using the cushion leg, as in replacing the plastic wad with gas seal and hard card wads, pressure can spike due to less volume (no crush) at ignition. I have had some loads give sticky extraction after doing that using fast(ish) powders. Also, when comparing load data for cushion leg wads against all card wads it appears that same payload and powder with card wads gives higher pressure then with cushion leg. Maybe not an issue but worth paying attention to and reducing starting charges to check then work up.

My opinions anyway.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Oh man, loads of good info on here. I’ll check back in when we got power. This snow and Texas got things crazy. All the gas stations are out of gas. No propane to be found and we’ve been without water and power for the last 48 hrs.

It was -1 this morning. I’m having a blast! It’s like I’m camping in my own house. Now my wife, on the other hand....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Leon: You have plenty of Insulation don't you? Just enjoy the camping trip while it lasts.

Randy

[longbow]

Randy:

I'm going to guess that Leon won't be testing those round balls I sent for a little while yet! Texas got whacked hard! I have to think that Texas isn't the only state to get hit with extreme cold weather but they seem to have suffered worse.

Hoping BT and his family are alright! They're in Fort Worth and I see it is 71°F there today so certainly not freezing anymore but they may still be without power.

Once he has himself sorted out after the storm I'd like to get his load log book! He posts most of what he tests but it would be nice to get a collection of his good loads especially for heavier than normal slugs. There is a lack of heavy slug load data available for sure.

Longbow

[dsh1106]

Even using the lighter 0.735" RB at about 580 grs. I went up to 40 grs. of BD and that was enough recoil for me. I backed down to 38 grs. to minimize reoil induced brain damage!

Use these loads at your own discretion!

Play but play safe!

Longbow

LB

I backed the above mentioned load down to a max of 36 grains of BD. I found that 2 grain difference allowed me to relax a bit while shooting, prior to that reduction I had to concentrate so hard on my hold and the scope location I was starting to get flinchy. Recoil wasn't near as bad as getting tagged by the scope.

Scott