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Thread: can you make priming compound?

  1. #221
    Boolit Master
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    Anyone know how to get phosphorus from phosphate? Phosphate is easy to come by.

  2. #222
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oreo View Post
    Anyone know how to get phosphorus from phosphate? Phosphate is easy to come by.
    I usually buy my phosphorus from a crazy old man with no arms down on the Indian reservation.






    Have you previously handled red Phosphorus:chlorate mixtures?

    Do your friends call you "lefty"?

    Would you LIKE them to?

    It's not rocket science. It's alchemy. Google on "Hennig Brand".
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  3. #223
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    My phosphorus supplier first began suffering painful toothaches and swelling of the gums. Over time, his jaw bone began to abscess. The affected bones glowed a greenish-white colour in the dark. He also suffered serious brain damage. Surgical removal of the afflicted jaw bones saved him; otherwise, death from organ failure would have followed. The disease was extremely painful and disfiguring to the fellow, with dying bone tissue rotting away accompanied by a foul-smelling discharge, but his prices were reasonable, and his product of excellent purity!

  4. #224
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    Someone else has read "The 13th Element" by John Emsley???
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  5. #225
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    Haven't read it Bert, but it looks like a good read. Phosphorus fascinated me as a kid, to the point that i even attempted Brand's process, gave up after boiling down a gallon of rather stale urine on a Sterno stove, not one of my more illuminating experiments.

  6. #226
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    EEEEEW! NOT THE PEE! Yeah. I know.

    Bone meal from the garden section, calcined to charcoal. Sand, and a little real charcoal. Your first attempt at a reverb furnace (harder to build so they don't crumble than it looked) Then the whole Phosphorus poisoning/yard on fire/farts of the devil thing after.

    Ah memories... We shall treasure them.

    If you want, I'll loan you the Emsley book- Just found it again.
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  7. #227
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bert2368 View Post
    ....

    Have you previously handled red Phosphorus:chlorate mixtures?

    ....
    You don't use a red phosphorus/chlorate mix to make non-corrosive primer. Beyond safety, it would still be corrosive.

    You use a red phosphorus/barium nitrate mix for DIY. The US Army even officially adapted this for the 30/06 for a while after WW2. As soon as Remington's the patents ran out, the military dropped it's use. Mainly because it didn't have a long life. Now that most of the red phosphorus used in the US is coated, the DOD is spending millions to get ATK's P4 primer mix perfected.

    PS

    See post #38 in this thread for more information on the 1940's red phosphorus mix. Also, the book Dutchman is selling has a couple of mixes in them also. They are from the same era.
    Last edited by perotter; 04-07-2014 at 08:46 PM. Reason: PS & GR

  8. #228
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    Bert, thanks for the offer of the loan, but i went ahead and ordered it, looks like something i'll want my own copy of. No luck finding toluene, looks like i'll have to try sublimation or just live with the bentonite. Got some oil of vitriol though in case i have to make spirit of nitre, so the trip to the hardware store wasn't a complete waste.

  9. #229
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    De nada, I'd read it a couple of times.

    For a pretty good overview of the matter, this is free online:
    http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...dabf19270d.pdf
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  10. #230
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    As soon as the book left your hands Bert you'd discover that you needed it. I tossed my 250 ml retort about three months ago, already regretting it.

  11. #231
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    Here is a patent of ATKs for modern red phosphorous based primer mix. Some will find many other interesting patents by checking what other patents are reference or are referenced.

    https://www.google.com/patents/US8540828

    Here is the patent for coating red phosphorous with plastic. While the patent was for other reason, doing so for a primer mix greatly extends the live of primer.

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=p.../US4698215.pdf

  12. #232
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    A non-corrosive primer can be made using phosphorus sesquisulfide. That is what I was looking a getting a patent on. It's commercial value would mainly be in getting a simple 'green primer' that might compete with ATKs. As I can no longer get enough phosphorus sesquisulfide to test it, I'll just put it out there. If some one can get it, it is worth using.

    Phosphorus sesquisulfide has to coated also. Seems to only last a few day when mixed with most nitrates. With lead nitrate it lasts longer. I think if it was coated, it might last with other nitrates. The few 'green ones' I tried would only fire for 1 to 3 days after mixed and or put into a primer cup. Coating it should allow any nitrate to work.

    I found that mixing it wet with a binder was needed to get it to fire 100% of the time.

    FWIW:
    I wasn't able to 100% just substitute it for red phosphorus and have it work well.

  13. #233
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    Here's a link to a thread about how to make phosphorus. Its over 10yrs running and nearly 50pgs long but it really covers a lot of ground with a few successful, simple demonstrations of producing P in quantities up to several grams. The hard part seems to be providing enough heat for several hours of what is essentially a reduction and distillation process.

    http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/v...ead.php?tid=65

  14. #234
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    The retorts based on black iron pipe looked practical, a decent burner and down-draft kiln purpose-built from insulating firebrick would probably fuse the silica and get the reaction going.

  15. #235
    Look for an old Airbag from a car. The home made stuff is iffy at best. Armstrong mix is nasty nasty stuff. I think airbags have lead azide, we use the stuff in military blasting caps and i think some companies use it primers. I know some guys that will buy up airbags at junk yards for the explosives to build home made detonators.
    This is what i would suggest, its called a hammer friction test
    You place a small sample on a piece of steel, then use a regular hammer and place it on the explosives softly then gently push it flat and rub it back and forth increasing pressure. You are attempting to generate heat and friction. If it doesn't pop with this action then gently tap it hitting it harder and harder until it pops. Try and keep your impacts flat so you maximize shock and friction. This test is what we do in the military when we find home made explosives to test there sensitivity.

  16. #236
    Boolit Master Bert2368's Avatar
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    EOD will handle home made explosives?

    Times have changed.
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse Early View Post
    Look for an old Airbag from a car. The home made stuff is iffy at best. Armstrong mix is nasty nasty stuff. I think airbags have lead azide, we use the stuff in military blasting caps and i think some companies use it primers. I know some guys that will buy up airbags at junk yards for the explosives to build home made detonators.
    This is what i would suggest, its called a hammer friction test
    You place a small sample on a piece of steel, then use a regular hammer and place it on the explosives softly then gently push it flat and rub it back and forth increasing pressure. You are attempting to generate heat and friction. If it doesn't pop with this action then gently tap it hitting it harder and harder until it pops. Try and keep your impacts flat so you maximize shock and friction. This test is what we do in the military when we find home made explosives to test there sensitivity.
    That must be interesting. I know some explosives, a bit the size of a match tip would launch a hammer many yards away when it ignited.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  18. #238
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    That's useful information about the hammer test Jesse. Since my caps are intended for black powder i'm hoping to get away with a minimal charge of some sort of chlorate mixture. I tried Forsythe's original mixture of 70.6 parts of potassium chlorate, 1.8 parts charcoal, and 17.6 parts of sulfur and grit, but couldn't get it to spark hitting it with a hammer. Now that i have some empty caps made i'll probably test right on the gun, i'm trying to find a composition that doesn't blow the petals off the caps but still lights the powder effectively.

  19. #239
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    Have so far tried chlorate/ sulfur, chlorate/ iron sulfide, and chlorate/ tin sulfide, the mixture with tin sulfide burns cleanest, and goes off with a "poof" when a small pile is lit with a torch flame, it's also the only one of the three mixtures that doesn't blacken the copper caps when fired. All three mixtures failed Jesse's hammer test and were dry pressed into the caps without any premature ignitions. The sulfides were ground to 60 mesh, the grit was 20 mesh crushed glass. The caps opened but didn't blow apart, and all three formulations had no difficulty igniting combustible cartridges.

  20. #240
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    I got to about the fourth page and had to stop and quickly add this post to anyone trying to make the compound using the following chem:
    potassium chlorate
    sulfur
    grit(ie. chalk, sand, baking soda et cet et cet)
    and red phosphorus

    This compound is commonly known as "Japanese or cap torpedoes" primers.

    CAUTION: This compound MUST be mixed in TWO(2) parts!!


    One part the first three chems and they MUST be moistened to a porridge consistency, BEFORE beginning to mix them with a wood rod. In a separate container the red phos should be moistened too BEFORE adding to the first part of the compound. If you don't do it this way it will certainly explode in your face, proceed with caution! I can't stress this enough.

    with all precautionary measures taken there is no reason THIS formula won't serve you well to reload your primers. It's simple and it's effective and reliable. The paper cap method while easy and safe isn't completely reliable. I've used both methods and have had misfires on the paper cap but not the cap torpedo primers. If you need more info I'd be very willing to give exact detail on the process and formula.

    Jon

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check