12GA FH Slug Tester --

[xfoxofshogo]

cool ya the 98k i have still have 8mm and 30-06 barrels on them where can i buy a barrel that will handle this or how do you go about geting one i like it to look like the old octon barrel im just gussing this is kind like JT 700*** ??

[hubel458]

You can get 12ga heavy rifled barrels at Pacnor. To use Mauser
for 12ga shotgun you must do a conversion on one or buy one already
done. a GEHA. The conversion is replacing the front of the bolt.
Milling out the front reciever, losing the front lug seats,
as it won't lock in frony anymore.getting it head spaced on the
safety lug.And other changes. One this is done it can't be used
for rifle cartridges. The *** is just a shorter little brother to
my 700 HEs, but I don't put them in mausers as the front locking
is gone and you can't add enough rear locking lugs to make up
the difference, Like I do with the bigger Enfield.Ed.

[xfoxofshogo]

will a single shot brake open shotgun work for this ?? if i make a barrel to fit it i just pick one up i was going to ues for bp but barrel bent lol

[hubel458]

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabopen.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabopen2.jpg

Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585savredo.jpg

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/husq.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/husqmuz.jpg

[hubel458]

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabopen2.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58wads.jpg


Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2gno3.jpg

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".

http://www.gunownerstv.com/destructor.jpg


Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hh8bore.jpg

[hubel458]

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mold58-1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mold58-2.jpg


Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10ga690.jpg


Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wil8ga.jpg

[jkpq45]

Mr. Hubel,

Have you considered Alliant 4000-mr for your experiments? A well respected individual over at Weatherbynation says this:

”In burn rate it ranks between Re22 and Re25. If your mind runs on IMR, think of it as being a little like IMR7828.”

Others have called it pretty similar to RE17. Either way, is on sale at Cabelas for $15 for a one pound can. Might be just the ticket as it is the slowest of the newer Alliant magnum rifle powers.

[hubel458]

Yes It works for my 585HE and 700HE
and for the 12ga FH long brass case with BMG primers.
It is ball powder about like W780 ball in speed.Ed

[jkpq45]

Mr. Hubel,

I found an H&R "Long Range Sportsman" in 10 ga:

http://cdn.armslist.com/images/posts/634712489550960369b0imvdz4.jpg

At 36" long, sounds like plenty of length to get some slow-burning powder going. Any idea if it compares to your NEF (or if that frame could be rebarreled by H&R to 12 ga rifled, or 500S&W for one of your wildcats?)

Sorry--the NEF vs. H&R line is pretty blurry to me.

Thanks,
jkpq45

[hubel458]

That gun looks like the older model 176. Not the newer models.
The 10ga you want is the newer NEF SB2 frame with heavier
barrels or bull barrels. The SB2 is same newer alloy, heat treated
frame that the 12ga UltraSlug bull barrel is on.
The SB2 frame will not be flamed like the one picture seems to look..
In SB2 10 ga you can get 27 and 32 inch barrels solid choke,
and 24" and 32" bull barrels with screw in chokes.
You have to check serial numbers. to be sure.Ed

[hubel458]

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58calpen.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58allslugs.jpg

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, made by reaming out
one and cutting slot or groove all the way down to see
how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/two58sabots.jpg

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ped10.jpg

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

[hubel458]

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic, 2 of our sabot model,
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/side58sabot.jpg


Second picture is from our man in this forum, put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This shows the
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gatarget.jpg


Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/firedBLS.jpg


On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/oldgreener.jpg

[hubel458]

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fedseal.jpg

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10wadcup.jpg

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav585.jpg

[Carryacolt]

Good morning Ed,

In your post #512, you had a pic showing the sabot you have been working to get molded. Is the project still moving along as you had hoped and if so, as many of us here are following with keen interest, can you give us all an update please?

Also, in an earlier post you mentioned that once the sabot had been finalized, it would only be a matter of changing the dimensions to make a 20ga sabot. Is that anywhere in the plan at this time? Would the boolit used still be the 58cal or would it change to something smaller like the 50cal or ???

Thanks for all the work, time, and $$ you have put into this. You, and a select few, are the true pioneers and all the rest of us are benefactors. We all say "thanks".

[hubel458]

The sabot project should get us sabots by the end of summer.
We plan on having one later for 20ga, but they got to make
a huge bunch of 12s to afford to retool for 20s. Might take over a year.
I don't know for sure in this economy. A 20 guage may use
.458 cal slugs.

Guy using scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I and the boy will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as much if possible.Ed

[hubel458]

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic OP
wad and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/en700he.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/triple16.jpg

PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
Right nowe can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US.


.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58ballsabot.jpg

Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/all58sl.jpg

Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotguh slug at short rahges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ped585.jpg



And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/railgun.jpg

[hubel458]

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gacbc.jpg

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585in87.jpg

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph700helong.jpg

[OnHoPr]

Hubel, it looks like your keeping up with your very interesting hobby. I know your probably getting one of those cannons ready for dangerous 4pt hunting in Livingston county. I thought about getting up in that area for a little squirrel hunting. I wonder if that would be considered dangerous game. Your hobby as Artie Johnson would say "Very Interesting".:kidding::)

[hubel458]

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of
585HE case samples from the first run
of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

[hubel458]

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar.
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar.jpg

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt1.jpg


I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585head.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585hold.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585sec.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar3.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar2.jpg

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gasport.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58target.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar3.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar2.jpg

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gasport.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58target.jpg

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Ed, good to see you, doing what you do best, scare me with your big guns!
Now, I like the bullet in Commander wad 4 th from the left in your picture.
I just hope it does not weigh a ton, remember I'm the man from Chicken camp!
Indeed a picture is worth a thousand words!
Hope to see you in person one day!
Regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[hubel458]

Ajay that 4th one is called a Lyman old style about 490 gr.
And thank you for all the 20ga work you've done. Greatest
boon to 20ga slug reloaders. Ed

[longbow]

Both you guys are amazing! I always enjoy your posts.

Entertaining and informative to say the least!

I always look forward to seeing posts by VdoMemorie and hubel458. Keep up the good work.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Great Mr. Ed & Longbow, that kind of positive comments coming from both of you, I'm Honored and am very lucky to be associated with this wonderful family of slug shooters!
Warmest Regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[jmort]

I have to thank both Ed and Ajay for inspiring me. I first found Ed's thread and then Ajay's. So it appears that you will not have a lot of wads/sabots to sell at this point? Hopefully you will get more availability. Thanks

[hubel458]

WE don't have the 12ga Accutip style sabot we designed yet , but they
are supposed to be setting up the equipment to get started.
But if you want to try 20 ga, get NEF heavy barrel or Sav 220, and you can get BPI
20 GA Commander wads and buy or cast 58cal slugs and go to shooting.
Slugs to use are .575" to .578". And Ajay has packages of 20 ga slug and wad
combinations with instructions that he''ll be selling.
There is all the info that Ajay has and if you are not into casting, you can buy
various 58 cal slug and the wads ready to load from Ajay..Ed

[jmort]

I waiting for the 12 gauge components. Will all due respect to Ajay, I'm liking the 12 gauge.

[hubel458]

Shot cast 575 Minie in 20 ga Commander wad at 1900 in smooth
bore single heavy barrel 20, at 30 yds, got 6" group for 4 shots.

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafinish.jpg

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585greener.jpg

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt2.jpg

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bmgblanks.jpg

[Willbird]

Wondering if you have any idea what the highest chamber pressure is a 209 primer will work with ?

[firefly1957]

I intentionally blew up a Siamese Mauser by loading the case with Bullseye powder because i had no cases i used a 7.62 X 54 Russian case and sized it in the chamber then drilled the Berdan primer out and placed a WW 209 primer in it. The case gave at the primer and destroyed the action, Barrel and bolt (minus the extractor) were fine and in place. The primer held all that pressure and was bent a bit by the gas blow by. Looking the gun over i wonder if the case had not failed if the gun would have survived a full charge of Bullseye. This was a gun of wartime production and if i had known what i do today it would have got a new stock and a 45-70 barrel instead of blown up!

[hubel458]

I've used shotgun primers at 45,000 psi in brass 12ga cases
we made from bmg brass and bushed in primer and no trouble.
I'm using them in 8 and 4 bore brass cases with starter powder and get
cases to about 35k, regular loads..
Bullseye in too large amount, which isn't much. may blow up any gun.
I don't even use it for starter powder in my 4bore loads,
i use Blue Dot. Will do same in the 2 bore when it is done.Ed

[Willbird]

Thanks for the info, I'm going to use them to light off a smokeless muzzle loader...people speak of seeing "pressure signs" ad the primer, and pondering if the 209 primer is the "weak point". Most breech plug designs I doubt the primer ever sees full pressure. I thought of altering a 30-30 case and working up to full pressure to see how the primer affected the pressure....but then I recalled the shotguns from hell and figured they had already "been there" hehe. The muzzle loader boys use SR4759 or N110 as a faster powder to duplex with slower powders.

[longbow]

Ed:

Maybe a little off topic but I was just wondering about your use of modified military brass cases for your tests.

I thought anything over 50 cal. in rifled barrel was considered a "destructive device" unless it was originally manufactured for shotgun or sporting rifle.

Not trying to start anything, just curious about the rules and regulations.

There isn't a lot of rifled shotgun shooting I am aware of in Canada but then there are not many areas restricted to shotgun and muzzleloader hunting in Canada either (no handgun hunting here!). I would have to check but it seems to me even .50 BMG was not allowed here for some time. Not sure about custom shotgun modifications and "wildcat" type loads using modified non shotgun cartridges.

In any case, I always enjoy your posts along with Ajays and turbo1889. You guys have provided a great deal if good info and entertaining reading.

I am still messing about with round ball loads and Brenneke style slugs at "normal" slug loads and velocities in smoothbores. Not in your league at all. Maybe one day!

Longbow

[hubel458]

AS long as it is a shotgun case that fits in a standard straight sided
shotgun chamber in the US it is considered a shotgun shell.
Under GCA laws, all shotgun calibers are exempt from the over
50cal DD rules, It don't make any difference how cases are made,
drawn, machined, turned, extruded, by punch press or lathe, etc, what they
are made out of, paper, plastic, steel, brass, aluminum, etc as long
as they go in shotgun caliber chambers, Don't matter how long, 2.75",
3.00", 3.5", 4.0", etc. If you make a shotgun chamber for our 12gaFH
it is legal as long as any other shorter 12ga case fires in the chamber.
There is 5 nominal lengths of cases that fires in my 12gaFH long chamber.
And a full backbored 12ga the chamber size is full length to the front
of barrel, making a 30 inch chamber for really long case if you want.
And once a bmg brass case has 12ga rim on it and is straightened out
it ain't bmg no more it only goes in 12ga chamber.
We just made it for sporting use.If you scraped it and
melted it and sent the cast brass rod to RMC, to make 12ga brass case is it ok....

Now you can't take 37mm and neck it to 12ga and have an exempt
12ga caliber case, you have big bore case over 50cal.... that you can get a
sporting use exemption for if you want , like I did for my 700HE, and 585HE and
many others have done for their over 50cal cases..
Just apply and get the sporting exemption. But straight sided shotgun
cases are all exempt in the law..Ed

[longbow]

Okay. Thanks Ed. I was just curious about it as I have read some comments that made me wonder just what was and wasn't legal.

So if it fits a "shotgun" chamber it is okay but if it is for over .50 cal rifle it is not? Seems to me the .700*** thread had some questions as to legality.

Anyway, I figured you knew what you were about so could answer the question. And so you did.

Thanks.

Longbow

[Willbird]

The street sweepers fell under the exemption until they started to draw attention, then the ATF shut off the sporting use exemption for them and made them DD. Shotguns from hell really do not have a huge following yet...if they started to draw attention then things that stick up seem to get cut off :-)....but it would not be nearly as simple to say they are not "sporting".

[longbow]

As it turns out, I ran into one of Ed's reports on another site and he answered the same question for someone else.

I have to say that I am not sure of the legalities in Canada. Regular shotguns and ammunition are perfectly legal but I am not sure about "deviations" or custom made ammunition based on other cartridges. I suspect that unless they become commonplace and seem "threatening" or "stick up" as Willbird says, then they would indeed get attention and action from bureaucrats.

Longbow

[hubel458]

I don't think we'll have problems with hopped up shotgun slug
ammo, as all the manufacturers are loading hotter and faster and
many game departments are pushing shotgun slug use over rifle
cartridge use in built up areas for safety reasons. And even though a
blunter shotgun slug or sabot slug is hopped up its design won't
let it carry extreme distances, not even as far as a 22 long, if it is
elevated and misses the target. And the guy doing the 700 ***
is getting it a sporting use exemption, but being such a short case
still won't do any more than a 3.5" RMC 12ga brass with a slug.
But that is the rules and the rules work exempting shotgun calibers
as they are listed in the back of the cartridges of the world book,
and allowing others to get over 50cal rifle stuff exempted. And if they ban
firearm applications like streetsweeper, it really isn't banned, you just
pass background test and pay 200 bucks.And you can own all
of them you want. Now I'm not in favor of the 200bucks,
should be 20, but if checks keep real actual super dangerous
weapons out of the hands on mentally disturbed monsters
that is fine with me. Ed

[Willbird]

All it takes is ONE nitwit. Our 3 shot rule in Ohio stems from ONE individual who carelessly launched a whole pocket full of 12 gauge slugs at a running deer and his 4th or 5th shot killed a person on an adjacent property. And just last year some moron unloaded his muzzle loader by firing it in the air at a 45 degree angle and killed an Amish girl. That bullet as I recall went something like 1/2 a mile before it struck her in the head and killed her. Point is, as always, be aware of the target and what lays beyond.

[Willbird]

All it takes is ONE nitwit. Our 3 shot rule in Ohio stems from ONE individual who carelessly launched a whole pocket full of 12 gauge slugs at a running deer and his 4th or 5th shot killed a person on an adjacent property. And just last year some moron unloaded his muzzle loader by firing it in the air at a 45 degree angle and killed an Amish girl. That bullet as I recall went something like 1/2 a mile before it struck her in the head and killed her. Point is, as always, be aware of the target and what lays beyond.
If that had been a "modern" smokeless muzzle loader shooting a 400 grain bullet 2700 fps, that has a .7 BC something might have gotten cut off for sticking up.

[hubel458]

Tragedies happen when people are careless, but in comparison
with the muzzleloader mentioned, most rifles with their pointed
or semi-pointed bullets can travel 3-4 times as far.I gave some guys
hell couple years ago for wanting to sight guns in with target set on
top of a rise, where downrange couple miles were some houses.
They now know better. 3 most important gun rules, be sure of
your target, watch your muzzle, and don't have accidental discharges.ED

[hubel458]

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but
enough to find goos combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. Going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/csd20.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/csd20-2.jpg

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/monostub.jpg

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ou.jpg

[txnative1951]

Ed... Glad to see you over here also. I got banned from TheHighRoad.org for my view that the 2nd Amendment was intended to be absolute by the Founding Fathers, just like religious freedom. Oh well...

Your mentioning of SEE over there got me to thinking... I wonder what would be the maximum pressure that could be developed in a closed chamber (where both ends were blocked) for a given quantity of powder. From what I've read, all powders of a similar type are going to produce the same amount of energy if you ignite them. The difference is the retardants that are added to the powder to slow down the burn rate. If you are not concerned with the burn rate, but only the amount of gas produced when powders are converted from solid to gas, it would seem that you could calculate the maximum pressure that *could* be generated and thus the barrel thickness that would be necessary to contain that gas, even if it generated the gas in an explosion instead of a controlled burn. Assuming that Barlow's Formula is the correct one for determining the strength of a tube in this case and a 40,000 psi yield strength on the alloy of the barrel, a 1.2" OD barrel with a .73" ID should be able to withstand 18,800 psi with a safety factor of 1. Now, if you are using a more modern alloy and have a 100,000 psi yield strength, it goes up to 47,000 psi. And changing that to a 2" OD gives you 127,000 psi. Purely academic, of course, but it could give someone an idea of the absolute wost case scenario. From a practical matter though, I have to think that even if the lead bullet was completely wedged into the barrel so that it could not move, you would get a blow through of it before you got a destruction of a barrel that was this thick, although the speed at which the pressure increased might have an effect upon the results.

[hubel458]

Those barrel strengths relative to the psi they can hold
using the formula are accurate for progressive burning powder.
When you have SEE event the speed of the explosion can
be up to 5-6 times the speed of progressive burning powder,
so the speed of the wavefront makes regular thickness barrels
quite vulnerable.Some 50cal action barrels are 2 inches in
diameter at the first foot or two but if they have SEE event in a
bmg case, that still can blow up those barrels if the max
explosion speeds occur. Just like high explosives in a IED can
push a thick copper plate so fast it goes through thick armour.Ed

[txnative1951]

Interesting... Sounds like it's time to switch to the 4" OD barrel... 327,000 psi... :)

I have to think that if someone was considering a 4" OD barrel for a 12-gauge, it truly would be the 12-gauge From Hell...

"Anything worth engineering is worth OVER-engineering"

[hubel458]

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lymanspw12.jpg

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bspring.jpg

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up

http://www.gunownerstv.com/vdolong.jpg

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slower than shotgun powder RE-17 does.. It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down.Ed

[txnative1951]

How many grains of powder could you get in a 12-gauge shell if you put no bullet in it?

[hubel458]

In a 3.5" plastic case I can get 350 grains of heavy
powder like RE17, RE33. With lighter 4759 powder
I can get 270gr.Lot of room in the long cases.Ed

[txnative1951]

In a 3.5" plastic case I can get 350 grains of heavy
powder like RE17, RE33. With lighter 4759 powder
I can get 270gr.Lot of room in the long cases.Ed

So, you could get more powder than is normally used in a .50BMG loading. At least theoretically it would be possible to design a gun where the bullet was placed in the barrel manually and the 12-gauge shell just contained powder. The 12-gauge shell would act like the powder bag and primer on a large cannon.

[firefly1957]

Yes but a plastic shell will not survive high pressures brass will . You also may note that the work done is proportional to the area of the bore so the same pressure curve will give more velocity with a larger bore giving a edge to the 12 ga. over a 50 caliber. Then the poor ballistics of a bigger slug will effect down range performance so a sabot is useful to launch the smaller than bore size projectile but then you need to stabilize that bullet. Another factor with the 12 Ga FH is they operate at lower pressures than the 50 BMG reducing the work available some.

[hubel458]

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. In picture on right is factory SPW.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lymanspw12.jpg

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.



http://www.gunownerstv.com/58inmzwad.jpg

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt3.jpg

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

[TheGrimReaper]

I love it!!!

[longbow]

Never seen those thick wads. Where did you get them?

I wouldn't mind trying that one. Still working with smoothbores.

On another note. Ed do you have pressure tested loads that are available for those of us without pressure testing equipment? If not, you should put a manual together and market it. Mark me down for one!

Longbow

[hubel458]

The 12ga MZ wads I got at gunstore in black powder area.
They are listed as for steel shot in muzzle loaders.
All of our loads in plastic cases are at max magnum 12ga 3.5"
levels, or less, about 14,700psi max. RMC Brass shotgun case
loads will be about 1/3 higher in modern rifled barrels.
Like Savage bolt guns. And add on rifled in Mossys and 870s, etc
For bull barrel guns the RMC brass loads are about 2/3 more than the plastic loads. Like NEF Ultra.And our add on heavy barrels.Ed

[hubel458]

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wills87.jpg

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on here, 12ga lead
roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tubeslug.jpg

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585wadshot.jpg

Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mossy.jpg

[longbow]

That round ball slug looks good Ed! What diameter is the tube? I am guessing this is a "bore size" slug so not fitting into a shotcup?

I was hoping to get out and shoot mine this weekend but I got nailed with a nasty winter cold and was feeling pretty poorly. Getting over it now so next weekend I will give them a go.

I will be interested in seeing how yours do too so please keep us posted.

Longbow

[hubel458]

That tube is just the only piece I had in drawer . same with one lead ball ..
ball is ..725" -- tube is .705", seal BPGS, got 20ga wads inside.
Next month will check on cost and OD sizes of stiff solder copper tubes
and regular copper tubing...It is long, made for smooth bores as the
soft ball would lead up rifling.
WE got a bad blizzard here also. I gonna set it out for couple weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12shortbrass.jpg

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10lyman.jpg

Next is a further idea with Longbow's tube and roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gatube.jpg

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585whisper.jpg

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585tact.jpg

[jmort]

"Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load...Ed"

Want to feel like a tiny, limp-wristed, girly-man,just read one of the two best threads ever. I'm often found shooting 9,000 ft lbs loads in six pound guns with pistol grips. Seriously though, when are you putting out your "HE" wads/sabots? Inquiring minds want to know.

[hubel458]

I have big hands and 270 lbs and I only shot couple. Much better at 2000.
Which is 577NE levels. Just something to impress the gun nut grandkids.

Sabots will be around in a couple months so they tell me. It takes
a long time to get stuff done in the gun and shooting business.Ed

[jmort]

Good news and thanks for the response

[hubel458]

I meant a couple weeks---

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotpile.jpg

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/opensabots.jpg

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotrif.jpg

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotdent.jpg

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Big Brother Ed, let me take this opportunity to Congratulate you and wish you the very best!

You are and have always been a great person, looking forwards to working with you in the near future!

We had a unspoken promise among us that we would send our samples to each other, where are my samples, Brother Ed?
Its comedy time now, based on your reply to that.

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.facebook.com/pages/Preci...75489969155338

[longbow]

I'll bet that would be a good sabot for the Lyman 577611 Minie with it's thick skirt. Mind you, that impression from the Minie looks like that one has a very thick skirt too.

I used to really like the 577611 in my .58.

Were the Minies soft lead or a hard alloy?

Those sabot bases do look good. They look very thick and tough too.

It is a good point you make about slower powders. I haven't ventured into your loading territory yet and am still using mostly Blue Dot and IMR4756 so far but even with those powders there is a noticeable difference in wad condition when compared to faster powders. Also, wads make a big difference too. I 've shot 12 ga. Win AA Reds in smoothbore with very poor results. Not only do petals "mush", wrinkle and shear but the gas seal is thin and often blows at the edge. Other wads are in such good condition that they could almost be reused.

Recovered wads always tell a story. Looks like you have a good design going there.

Longbow

[hubel458]

Ajay- I'll get you some to test..

In a 3" plastic case we only used 90gr 4759 with 600gr Dixie
that we lab tested years ago..
And in 3" case with seal, and 1/4" white felt wad, and the sabot with 440gr
slug only could get in 80gr. Sabots do not work out as short, as short
squat lead slugs.

For the same plastic case, seal, 1/2" wad, sabot, using Allant Steel-- max is 55gr,
above that cases stick on my testing over the years with
similiar weught slugs/sabots..Ed

Slugs are soft lead about 8 hardness
I have the 611 ones here also. To fit under the shoulder inside
perfect, I swage top diameter down to .560" --down to
to first groove.

Do the same for Lyman 500gr new style. Lyman old style fits perfect in
440 or 490 gr. I was going to set it up taller to take 611 and new style
but then a whole bunch of shorter ones would have a loose fit.
And probably the 611 and the new style would be just as accurate
just as they come as the plastic has lots of give. That ridge
or shoulder inside isn;t very thick.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/topsabot.jpg

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/sealsabot.jpg

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"


Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabottarget.jpg

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabtable.jpg

A little levity in this process.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bearpic.jpg

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Big Brother Ed, you did a great job designing those Super Sabots, I was very happy when I got my shipment and they really look very good and when my son tested them at the range they were very accurate and shot well through my Savage F212 with your A. Steel load but I down loaded them by 3 gr and yet they were very accurate.

The best advise I can give My Family of Slug Shooters is to drop the charge by 4 gr and then come up gradually 1/2 gr at a time, that is the load will kick like a mule.

My son really liked them.

Please send me another 3 bags before you run out!

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.facebook.com/pages/Preci...75489969155338

[hubel458]

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
slugs in them as the pics above show. With no cards under slugs,
But with good powder seals and with Alliant Steel good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/expansion.jpg

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabloadcrimp.jpg

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbwknoxx.jpg

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
for those who want ultimate blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
Whoppee.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700hsm2.jpg

[dverna]

There is a fine line between insanity and genius.

I am too smart (or chicken?) to pull the trigger on any gun that will chamber those monsters.

[hubel458]

950 sabots of the 10,000 gone in 10 days. Time to get them.

AND TEST THEM and let us know how they do. It would be

great if they are as good as the good factory sabots,

and we get them tested and figured out before next deer

and hog seasons.

Two ways it could work out---A Little humor--

1) If they are good they will be Hubel Sabots- 2) if bad, Damn Hubel Sabots--

I have set it up so they can be paid through PayPal if you want..
100 $33--150 $45-- 200 $57-- Every extra 50 $12.
Contact info above.Ed

[hubel458]

After this weekend, 12ga sabots are going to be supplied
to reloaders by someone else.... IE; By Whoever buys my
stash of the 8100 of them left...Ed

[jmort]

Why are you abandoning this long standing goal? I don't have a rifled shotgun. Do the sabots have an application in a smooth bore? Thanks

[hubel458]

An explanation of what is happening--
I only wanted to develope a good sabot, sell enough to get money I spent back,
for making them, and let other people/companies, etc sell them. The money
I have in them is needed right now for my 585HE case order. My resources just depleted fast this winter due to
super major family health problems.
And The sabot process
took 8 months or more longer than I had planned, so I had no chance
to get money back I pu into it on small sales in time to
help me out this winter.. The mfg can make more by the hundreds
of thousands. So whoever takes over selling can always get them. I am keeping big bunch here and I will keep
on testing and experimenting with them

Smooth bores- They work for 30 yd use =Use improved cylinder
or cylinder chokes with .575"
440 gr hollowbase Minie that Maplewood sells on Gunbroker.
That 440 gr Minie is the one with the deepest hollow base.
There should be other hollowbase ones that may work
especialy if round nose.Ed

[hubel458]

We're getting low on the slugs to send with the sabots,
and no one has picked up selling the rest yet, so we will
try selling them a couple weeks longer. So to get these
moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.
Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2,3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that we can afford to pay postage on,
we will sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.
Now 200 of the other brand of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys please get around quick
and help us out here. We can do MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

[silas oberhauser]

hubel458, who did you go to to get them made?

[turbo1889]

I don't think he is going to tell anyone that until he recoups at least most of what he has put into the project (and I don't blame him). I'll have a little money freed up the end of this week and I'll probably buy a 200 count from him. Not into the sabot thing a huge amount myself (mainly a full bore man myself) but my gal is and she is off the net and I should probably get some for her, she wouldn't like to have missed out on this.

[hubel458]

The person or companies who take over will get the info on
where they are made and the costs from mfg is about a penny
less than what I'm charging on the latest sale prices
after I subtract shipping. Still don't pay gas to PO. Ed

[hubel458]

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..You'd use same loads
in the Magtech brass as you'd use in 3" plastic .
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabmagtech.jpg

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotrmc.jpg

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/aaron20.jpg

[hubel458]

We've sold 2800 sabots in 5 weeks. 7200 left.
And they can make more of them.
Get them while they're hot.
Hot Damn...Starting to pickup a little.
MO, Check, or Paypal. Paypal easiest.

Min of 200- $47 shipping included
300- $65 sh inc-- 400- $83 sh inc..Ed

[hubel458]

About powders- The fast rifle powder we use in loads, which is still much slower
than shotgun powders is SR 4759......It is not 4756,,,I want to make
sure all know this, as I may have typed a 6 for a 9 somewhere.

We have moved 3700 sabots- still 6300 here. Ed

[jmort]

Just got my first 400 today and they are sweet. I'll try the slugs you included in the smooth bore and see what happens. Planning on doing a twin-ball .575 x2 x 290 grains for 580 grain payload. Will be ordering more.

[hubel458]

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16sabotother.jpg

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12goodbad.jpg

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabextreme.jpg

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabdefense.jpg

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/puny.jpg

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

[turbo1889]

I think choosing to make your sabot for 58-cal. boolits was a wise choice. It normally takes less spin and less muzzle velocity to sufficiently gyro stabilize most of the larger 58-cal. diameter boolits out of a 12ga. in a sabot compare to using 50-cal. The twist in the 12ga. rifled barrel slug guns varies between the companies making the barrels and even by model and vintage from the same company. Some of the guns with slower twists especially with loads at less then bruising, ultra-magnum, ultra-fast loads won't completely stabilize the smaller diameter boolits that take more spin. It's even worse with some sabots for the 12ga. that use 45-cal. boolits and very few guns have fast enough twists to properly stabilize those especially if you try to use longer heavier 45-cal. rifle boolits instead of pistol boolits.

Long story short, at least for the first few runs using the big 58-cal. inside the sabots for the 12ga. is most likely to give the best accuracy in the most guns for the widest velocity range and smaller caliber boolits inside the sabot will need more twist or more velocity or both to be sufficiently stabilized.

Long story short, I think you made the right choice there and the few loads I've tried out with them in rifled 12ga. slug guns have worked very well and they were slow for sabot loads at only about 1,600 muzzle velocity in an NEF barrel which is on the slower end of spectrum for twist rates.

[hubel458]

I figured that in guns with slightly slower twists that the
Minie style 58cal would stabilize easier, because of
hollow base. And in smooth with decent speed short range use.Ed

[littlejack]

OK fellas, while were on the same subject, BIG SLUGS, I need some of you'alls experienced information if you don't mind.
I have begun my project of getting into loading big slugs in my 870 Rem. It has a Hastings rifled barrel.
I have bought a mold and have cast up 40 good conical musket slugs. These mic at .688, and weigh 754 grains respectively.
I will be buying 3" hulls (probably Fiocchi) to utilize the 3" chamber properly (no jumping from 2 3/4" hulls to the grooves).
Anyway, what would be the best wad for my purpose? I am making a push-through sizer to make the slug fit mycomponents whenever I get them.
Question: Would BPI be able to help me over the phone when I order hulls? I have never delt with them.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Jack

[turbo1889]

Un-slit steel/non-toxic shot wad with your 68/69 caliber conical pressed tightly inside is your best bet. Personally I like the short length LBC wads from BPI but their petals are too thick and their internal diameter too small for the diameter of what you are working with there even with sizing them down since they work best with 63 to 65 caliber size inside them. I suggest you go look through BPI's selection of unslit steel/non-toxic wads and try to find the ones with the thinnest petal/wall thickness (for steel non-toxic that is isn't usually less then 0.03") and preferably a shorter length so you don't have to trim their length and see if you can get a good press in fit with your conical that isn't too tight in your guns bore.

[hubel458]

I use 69cal slugs sized to about.675" in the BPI
Helix Cushion driver 18, they came measuring .687". Ed

[littlejack]

Thank you very much fellas.
I will look on the BPI and see what I can find.
I am new to reloading these big slugs, so please bare with me. I was planning on using Blue Dot powder, as it is listed in many 1 5/8 oz. and heavier shot loads.
hubel, what kind of accuracy/groups are you getting with your 69 caliber slugs? What shotgun, smooth bore/ rifled bore are you shooting them in? I am glad that there are folks here that have experience with these loads, to ask questions.
Jack

[hubel458]

I just fired for chrono work in smooth barrel. In 3.5" case in a
break action I put heavy barrel on.. Got about 1900 with
100 gr of 4759. ED

[littlejack]

I'll bet ya, that would leave a mark.

[hubel458]

Recoil Not bad the gun was 14 lbs and thick pad. If I used a brass 3.5"
case I could done about 300 fps more in same gun.Ed

[hubel458]

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gatube.jpg

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ceb.jpg

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20

[jmort]

That is some good info and some impressive components.

[cpileri]

Sir,
what is your load and esp wad column for the RMC case? I tried 50gr of Steel, then an X12X, then a .17hard/dark Nitro card, then the sabot and i have Lots of room left over in the 3.5"case.

I suppose I can just keep adding filler wads, but I wonder if you have something more elegant.
C-

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

[hubel458]

With Steel in 3.5" brass case I go to 65gr with 440gr in sabot.
And Use x12x seal and white felt wads to fill space. Nitro wads work.

A lot of room there which is why I really like using more of the
slower 4758. In brass use 90 to 105 gr. Also larger amounts RE17.
Some shops somewhere there or catalog dealers should
have 4759.. Mine always does here.Ed

[cpileri]

Sir!
Thank you again for all the info you provide.
Question on these loads:

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.
1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.
715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.
385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.

Is it safe to lower the powder charge (I know some powders are not safe w reduced loads)? Looking for any load data that wont cause case hed expansion/be safer for the NEF Ultra Slug Hunter? Not implying they arent safe pressure-wise, but perhaps a better way to say it is that i'm looking for loads easier on the brass. The two that really interest me are the 385gr Aluminum core and 1000gr jacketed slug load.

Thx!
C-

[hubel458]

Those loads are for the bmg brass based case/ with bmg primer.
Not for plastic and RMC cases and not that much powder.
Also the shotgun primers in plastic and RMC cases won't ignite
the HBMG powder unless you use starter powder.
I have loads for RMC cases using HBMG and starter powder.Ed
And when I used these it was before we found RE17 which uses
less in RMC and plastic and works with the primers.Ed

[cpileri]

I'll take them out of my thread summary then!
I misread the info, and posted them incorreclty.
Did I mess up any others?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199731-Safety-of-hubel-Sabot-in-875-muzzle-thickness-barrel&p=2301410&viewfull=1#post2301410

C-

[hubel458]

Not that I can see. When RE17 came along made everything easier,
uses less powder, leaves more room that is needed
for plastic seals and cushion wads. ED

[cpileri]

Thanks!
And if you get time to revise those "4 top loads" for Re-17 in RMC (or plastic) 3.5" cases, please share! (and let us knwo what platform they are safe to fire from).
C-

[hubel458]

Top RE17 loads in NEF, Of course will do in SAv210.

3.5" RMC brass --

385Gr JKT --220gr Re17

Sabot with 400gr --- 220ge RE17

715 gr JKT and 720 gr hard lead-- 200gr RE17

870gr hard lead- 180gr RE17

1040gr hard lead - 170gr Re17.Ed

[cpileri]

with 100gr being the lowest for all?

thx!
C-

[hubel458]

Don't go below 100gr Re17--

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lyman58.jpg


A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585delivery.jpg

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

[cpileri]

Thanks and those cases totally rock!
So... looking at so many, I have to ask if you intend to release it commerically; the guns and the brass?
C-

[hubel458]

I already released cases as we had a group buy to get
a barrel full and two others I'll sell as we go along,
and more will be done as fast as these go with money from these.
We have dies. reamer, you get actions and build guns or
get them built, We'll have bunch of barrels soon,
I can get barrels installed, profiled, and chambered,
you or smith do stock and finish. Ed

[hubel458]

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585plain.jpg

[OnHoPr]

You still around Ed. Sorta missing your post and wondering if everything going well, or if you went on vacation.

[hubel458]

I'm here experimenting along, sending out cases
helping guys do 585s, still got sabots. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/landmarks.jpg
..
Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/topedge.jpg

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hi.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mt585hi.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/g585hi.jpg

[cpileri]

Sir!
What would be involved in converting a Mosin Nagant to 585HI? what hassle and cost would one be looking at?
Is the M-N then a single shot? or does the magazine allow an extra round or 2 to be loaded?
Are loading dies necessary to work up loads? is any loading data available?
I imagine it uses 24ga brass (Magtec? or other cut down?) and 58cal slugs?
any successful hunting been done w one yet?
It sounds interesting, and where I usually avoid wildcats, this one has my interest piqued.
C-

[OnHoPr]

I think if you hit a deer with the 585hi from any angle you should be successful. It should be accurate enough for 200 yards and with cast of proper alloy give a pretty good wollup.

[hubel458]

Cases are made from 505 Gibbs brass cut to 1.785" long, just
to be under the limit of 1.800" they are quite thick enough on the mouth
to headspace on the mouth, like the Ram and B&M calibers. My 585HE
dies will do them also.....Great for the .585-587" Minie bullets
and guns with short loading ports..

I haven't done a MN yet, but from what I saw of one a family
member has, open bolt face all the way, so case rides left side of action
to feed. Case is just a hair smaller than bolt diameter
and set up a singlestack magazine. They are short enough even loaded out
a ways for a mag. Cases $3.70 each. barrel about 200, dies 200.
I have guy who can do barrel/chamber work cheap.Ed

[hubel458]

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comparemrmc.jpg

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/whitefelt.jpg

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/belting.jpg

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

[cpileri]

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. ..Ed

what powder? powder charge? primer? hull? and wad column did you use for the Rossi load?
thx!
C-

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
sabots in a real tight barrel. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but made it much smaller using much more
of the slower 4759.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabimp.jpg

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is- jeff.a.white@gmail.com
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch our 585 cases
imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafactory.jpg

Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet. Goes about 2600.
Actual weight of pellets is about 185 gr.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.Top pellet tapered a little and fit
inside thr hollwbase of the bullet.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585black.jpg

[hubel458]

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enaf2.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enaf3.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mossy24.jpg


Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/allhebbl.jpg

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields
through the winter. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhobbk.jpg

[jmort]

When I think of .58 caliber, I'm thinking .575" which is what I have been working on with your sabots. Should I be using a larger diameter, i.e. .585
Thanks
John

[bikerbeans]

Very nice Ed! You are making my little 24ga H&R very jealous.:-D

BB

[hubel458]

For the 12ga sabots use the 58cal Minies that are .574" to .577" unless
you have way oversize barrel.

And for my 585HE and 24ga that use
the .585" barrels use the ones that are .585" to .587"..Ed

[338RemUltraMag]

Ed,

I have a mold almost finished that will produce this bullet and as a solid it weighs in at 922 gr giving you a heads up incase you wanna try em in your 12 Ga FH

http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj609/joshaaronelli/20140120_163425.jpg (http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/joshaaronelli/media/20140120_163425.jpg.html)

[hubel458]

Thankyou- I don't have anymore of 12ga FH cases
we made from BMG brass, which works best with
heavy slugs, and most test work is now with
sabots in the plastic and RMC cases,
and my 585.Ed

[hubel458]

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED


http://www.gunownerstv.com/backbore.jpg



Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

[firefly1957]

- I have been following this thread for a long time i have an old Mauser bolt action 12 gauge bolt action would it work for this or is it to much diameter for the action?
. The gun belonged to my grandfather and once was a goose gun with a 40" barrel but he had a mishap and it now sports a 25" cylinder bore. I always wondered if it would make a good slug gun if a rifled barrel was installed but remember reading somewhere they tend to break extractors.

[hubel458]

I did one for slugs, but not any good for heavy slug or
magnum shot loads as is. When made into a shotgun
they drilled holes into bottom of the back left side
for some extra stuff and they are cracked and weakened there
and along with thumb cutout they are not safe for heavy loads.
Can be welded up and metal reinforcing added at cutout and heat treated
but maybe not worth it.Ed

[firefly1957]

Thank you for that Ed i have read a couple things like that about the Mauser shotguns i have never fired it and it may stay that way for me i also had concerns over weather the stock would withstand the recoil.

[longbow]

Ed:

That hollow base slug looks to have very thin skirt walls. Do you have any problems with skirt distortion/collapse? That has been my problem with most all hollow base designs I have tried unless I oven heat treat. I have tried some very thick skirts but still find they collapse/distort if ACWW or softer.

Longbow

[hubel458]

I filled hollow with hot glue in ten ga testing on couple loads.
These are soft cast ones, so if I found a backbored gun and tested in
backbored barrel, I'd fill the hollow.

Also I heard of filling them with dense blue styrofoam pieces,
cut round so they just jam in tight and cut off flush.
I am going to try that later. Should be better and easier
than glue.

If you don't fill hollow with something then you have to pile up hard
cards under them like Federal does in 10ga and that leaves no
room for our slow power loads. Fed loads I checked had 6 cards
piled up in the case...Wasted space to me.Ed

[bikerbeans]

What about the HB slug directly on top the slow burning powder, like a minie ball in an MZ? Let the combustion gas expand the HB skirt?


BB

[hubel458]

That might work, but it also due to latent muzzle pressure
may deform that soft skirt off center when slugs leaves barrel.
Then accuracy goes away. It would be best for accuracy
if it was cast with harder alloys, to try it..

I don't cast so I have to fill the hollow bases of what
I have to test.Ed

[bikerbeans]

Ed,

I have some heat treated 12ga HB slugs I can try launching w/o a gas seal or wads. This is assuming winter ever ends. Maybe porting the barrel would help with softer alloy HB slugs?

BB

[longbow]

Okay, that's more or less what I figured. I haven't found a hollow base design yet that doesn't suffer from skirt distortion... including Gualandi DGS slugs. Well, not quite true, the Dixie Tusker didn't distort at all but it has an extremely thick skirt and is very hard, heat treated alloy.

I generally fill all my hollow base slugs. Hmmm, I might have mentioned that in the first post ~ they distort unless oven heat treated or filled and some still distort even after filling.

Along with Ed's comment on the skirt deforming off center, I have recovered Lyman Foster slugs shot into deep soft snow and found that not only did they slug up from 0.705" to exactly bore diameter but most slugged up off center or with the nose tilted. These were so undersize they had the opportunity to tilt as they jumped through the forcing cone. Those were loaded exactly to the Lyman recipe using Win AA red wads (IIRC) with petals cut off. I have found hard card wad columns to be much more effective under most hollow base slugs than cushion legs.

Ed is talking about, as the slug leaves the muzzle, which is a bit different but my point is that an undersize hollow base slug may well not slug up evenly and then the skirt blowing or distorting at the muzzle is a whole other issue to deal with.

A bore size slug with hollow base like a Minie might not do badly in a rifled gun but I suspect you would still need a plastic gas seal over the powder because smokeless does not ignite like BP, it requires certain minimum pressure to burn well and the leakage until the slug swells up would most likely cause some problems there.

I can say that I have loaded slugs over Blue Dot using nitro card over powder wads and no plastic gas seal where the recipe called for a plastic gas seal and performance was notably poorer than same load with the plastic gas seal. Not a sharp bang when fired and lots of unburned powder left in the bore. Faster powders might do better. BP would probably work that way.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

this may be a dumb question, but why not make all hollow base slug designs with a "key drive" like the lee that prevents distortion?

[jmort]

The "key drive" was designed to keep slug from compressing into the wad to potentially eliminate need for nitro card in wad. A cross/+ design would do both better but might overly complicate pin.

[bikerbeans]

Longbow,

If I can't get the load to ignite correctly w/o a gas seal and wad column, I think I will try just using a gas seal with a small hole in the center underneath the HB bore size slug. The idea being the gas seal will not be pushed into the HB cavity if the hole is big enough to equalize the pressure on both sides of the gas seal.

BB

[hubel458]

Yes in most loads there is definate gain in speed and cleaner
burning with good plastic seals compared to cards.
Plastic seals are the best money spent for the good results we get.

The idea of a hole in seal to equalize pressures may work.

The dense blue foam idea in the hollow base I got from a
factory load I saw advertized that used a round plastic ball,
and from that guy in the EU that was cutting his cushion wads from
regular white foam and they were working ok.Ed

[hubel458]

Reminder if needing our 12ga discarding sabots contact

jeff.a.white at gmail.com

Time to get them and tested. The fellow with
the tight barrel Abolt who did the work to shrink
his groups, in spite of the tight barrel,got a deer with it.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
with foam pressed into the base..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10foam.jpg

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24gaseal.jpg

Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/khan24ga.jpg

[hubel458]

Those wanting to get our 12ga discarding sabots contact

jeff.a.white at gmail.com


He can ship US, Canada, or anywhere. Ed

[longbow]

Now there are a couple of great ideas Ed! I am guessing you know that already.

I just may give the foam a try but fisrt, I am building my rifling machine to try a deep rifled slow twist choke tube. We'll see how that goes.

Longbow

[NLS1]

One of the most amazing threads I have ever read. Thank you for sharing so much effort and information hubel, truly an amazing amount of knowledge in this thread.

I will need to go back through and read more, but each page was fascinating. Looking forward to a project of my own with one of these options.

Dan

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24galoads.jpg

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87-24ga.jpg

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tankhunter.jpg

[Hogtamer]

Just wanted to know about other's results with these sabots and minies. Somebody bought a bunch of sabots but no range results to speak of. I'm about to start loading 2 3/4" federal hulls with XX? (42 ok to start?) grns of Steel, an x12x op seal, a 1/4" felt wad, a Lee .575/500 minie (mine are dropping @ 540!!) and a crimp. Do I need a magnum primer? I have WIn 209s on hand. Will be shooting an 870 express, rifled barrel and scoped. I no experience with Steel powder. Ed, this look ok to you?

[Hogtamer]

Saw this wasn't going in 2 3/4 so loaded on in 3" federal hull w/48 grns. None of that matters as the round won't chamber. Got a perfect crimp but there's enough bulge in the hull at the top of the sabot that makes it unusable. This is supposed to be a slug that works but so far is an expensive bust.103598

[hubel458]

Can't tell from picture is that a roll crimp.

What do the slugs measure for diameter with a mic/calipers.
That mold shouldn't make them that heavy, If it hasright mold number
on it and/or right base pin.

Win STS primers are fine that is what I use.
You can start with 40 gr Steel, no less.

Now if that mold makes the lands of the side of the slug
line up with the internal ridge of sabot it will
bulge out oversize. The ridge has to be in a groove
or just above the top land or shoulder.ED

[Hogtamer]

Better news to report...The sabots wouldn't work "as is" with a modern minie or 500 gn traditional minie. i found a "drum sander" attachment for dremel tool that I used to remove the lip on the inside of the sabot. Now i have a good fit in both Federal and Remington 3" hulls. Got some loaded with 50 grns Steel, CCI magnum primer, x12x op wad, 1/4" felt wad and sabot. G ot a good 6 pt. crimp - don't have a roll crimper - but the shell looks good. Don't know that I'll get to shoot this week but feel better about investment in this project than I did last week. Will post results when I can get to range.

[hubel458]

Roll crimp is best. Slug shold be .575" dia only,

If slug pushes out sabot because the ridge inside in on thr slug
or a land on the slug no good and ridge inside should stay
there and make area of slug pushing sabot out smaller.
Ed

[hubel458]

Asked about of .575" Minies to use and what to make them
fit without wallering out sabot.

.The one on lower left new style, top old style, right
one that Dixie Gunworks sells/Got shoulder swaged
a little on the new style where inside ridge is, New style in pic 500gr,
old style 440 gr.. Other is 440 gr hollowbase with deep grooves.Ed


109978

[hubel458]

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...
We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585-24.jpg
Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/458sabot24.jpg
Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/452sabot24.jpg
Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/mouse.jpg

[hubel458]

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.
If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide
next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/tankbuff.jpg
　
I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph212lugs.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .
http://www.gunownerstv.com/100ceb.jpg
Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/triball.jpg
I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.
　
Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.
The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.
Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.
For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.
Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.
Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
　

[cpileri]

what is the pressure and performance change when adding the bpgs under the tupr wad in the triball load?
C-

[Al in Mi]

what is the pressure and performance change when adding the bpgs under the tupr wad in the triball load?
C-

I was wondering the same and even with 28gr of BD I can barely get it to roll crimp to length and run thru my M2.

[hubel458]

I used it in 3.5" case which makes easier. I figure extra thickness of seal
would keep base of wad from coming apart. Maybe for short cases, at least
for me, I'd use two balls and cut wad back. If two balls hit within 4"
at 50 yds, that is as good as a 3 ball load with two that way and
a wide flyer... No pressure signs using 4759. Ed

[cpileri]

what is your 4759 load w triballs? the dixie load is blue dot.

[hubel458]

In 3.5" case , 70Gr of 4759...... Probably in a 3" case with 2 balls

use 70 gr also, about all you can get in.Ed

[cpileri]

thx sir

[hubel458]

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/cebsabot.jpg
Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.
And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585-14,5mm.jpg
I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....
http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhandle.jpg
A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/24liteceb.jpg
　
　

[longbow]

Ed:

You never cease to amaze me! That is one impressive looking cartridge and bullet.

Merry Christmas.

Longbow

[jmort]

He is the ne plus ultra of power. 15,672 ft lbs, and he has had loads north of that, way north of that as I recall.

[hubel458]

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..
http://www.gunownerstv.com/58hornadyjkt.jpg
Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bull.jpg
　
Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585castbul.jpg
But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/58calpen.jpg
Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed
　
http://www.gunownerstv.com/screwball.jpg

[cpileri]

is that a screw through the balls?
how did they shoot? pattern? penetrate?
C-

[hubel458]

Went through 4'' plank, never slowed, stayed together.

Yes that is screw through them.A lot of work.

Be better to epoxy 2 balls into the wadcup, for

smoothbore act like the other slugs with a tail.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,


http://www.gunownerstv.com/compstock12.jpg


Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in a 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells it


.http://www.gunownerstv.com/dgslugs.jpg


There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..


https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos




Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph585jm.jpg




Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/mau585he.jpg


And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1...ED

[hubel458]

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.


One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.


They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.


We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.


But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..


For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.


Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed


http://www.cartridgecollector.net/sites/default/files/575%20MG%20MAGNUM%20FULL.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are couple 24ga FHs in break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
a 585 barrel into, and a guys NEF he had a 585 barrel monoblocked in.
The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga and 585 Minie Bullets
are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/24gacbc.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef24fh.jpg




Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when
I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind.


That is truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck
garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
got so bad she can't work, nearly invalid. We need extra money to try
to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.
As well as needed to pay for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc.


Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into my paypal account as gifts.
And if you want to mail it, use email below to contact me to get you
my mailing address.


The Paypal email is je@gunownerstv.com


Best Regards- Ed


PS-- I really need help. Not a astronomocal amount, but fairly fast.
We never made anything on the 12ga FH, etc, work and research.
The little coming from sale of our 585 brass, dies,
barrels, etc, we try to pay to the places, where the money
is owed, for getting them made..Ed

[Hogtamer]

Prayer (and a contribution) on the way Ed.

[hubel458]

Thanks- Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/24litebarnes.jpg


Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.




http://www.gunownerstv.com/slugswage.jpg


And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.


There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..


Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed

[hubel458]

We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,




http://www.gunownerstv.com/375warlord2.jpg


Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/375warlord.jpg


Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/biebs2.jpg


We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.


And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels....Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawton8000.jpg

[OnHoPr]

I just had a thought Ed, you know if your wildcat ever make mainstream I think I would get stock in the powder companies.

[hubel458]

Good idea, and also most loads for moderate speeds can use the surplus powders

that are less cost and in big supply. We'll help use them up,

do more shooting.There are guys with tons of surplus to sell.Ed.

[hubel458]

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,


Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around


http://www.gunownerstv.com/mecrimp.jpg


Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawtonthumb.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawtonhogue.jpg


The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.


About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/guardlen.jpg

[hubel458]

A maybe--- high speed 20ga full size, HP 280gr light alloy, pointed projectile, from
Cutting Edge Bullets. If we could get them be super great in 20ga brass cases.
One company is loading it in special molded plastic case to a muzzle velocity
of 2200fps out of a 26 inch 20 gauge rifled test barrel. They may have
the supply of those particular bullets tied up. They can get the speed
due to light weight.

Concept would do for 12ga at 380 gr. Guys trying light plastic coated slugs,
zinc slugs that are lighter than lead , maybe make pointed ones and use idea
to lock them in a special molded case, and of course in brass. Get same
high speeds.


They load with about 2/3 of 280gr pointed projectile sticking out the front end
of a new pressure molded one piece plastic case; with a steel base cup
The case is about 2.2 inches long . Loaded length is about 2.8"
Now using this bullet and say the aluminum core 12ga jacketed ones that BPI
sells is great in brass, but can't roll crimp the easiest and best in plastic,
due to no wadcutter type shoulder to crimp to. So guys can roll crimp with cards
over them or a fold crimp , but the industry won't do that with slugs or sabots.
So they are trying a pressure molded special case for the CEB
that locks on to it without a crimp.

About using RS brand rifle powders made by Nitrochemi mentioned above,
that are like the RE 17 they make for Alliant to ship here..
The concept of using rifle powders that can be used with shotgun primers in
large diameter cases allows the use of more and more speed and is like
what we do using 4759 and the RE 17. We are always looking for easy
to ignite powders of the RE17 type that has a speed between those two.


Main reason besides speed, is due to their slower ignition time to peak
pressures, we have much less pressure changes when components are
changed, cases changed, which is a critical factor for reloading using the much,
much, faster shotgun powders.They can be worked with to get loads figured out
without a 6 inch diameter test gun in a bunker with 50 ft string on the trigger.



Other info, we got experimenters cutting our 585HE to about 2.17", about 45-70
length, to see if those interested can use them in bigger lever actions,
that come in 45-70. The 45-70 rim is .608", base only .500"
and our rim and belt is .654" , but base is .634". 60% bigger, so we
think actions can be made that much bigger inside And base is third
bigger cross section than 50 Alaskan at .553", guys put in lever guns.
Make a real hairy lever gun. It being rimless case allows more diameter than
a short fat rimmed case, in a lever gun for more powder capacity and power
at moderate peak pressures.Called 585 Big Bore --585 BB
and cases already stamped. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/brian24.jpg




About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..


In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.




http://www.gunownerstv.com/Mickyboob.jpg


Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/enfieldsight.jpg

[stripercrazy]

best of luck Ed, hope everything works out ok.....Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/shrifle.jpg




Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A







Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/rossi585bb.jpg

[cpileri]

Oh, I gotta look harder into these!


Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/shrifle.jpg

[hubel458]

Yeh they will probably get more attention now than the developers want.

The case is short but overall loaded length about same as 3" crimped case.

Similiar to the idea of melting regular plastic cases into grooves in the slugs

instead of crimping, that we looked at a little a while back.Ed

[Hogtamer]

That top one looks suspiciously like my old favorite Activ hull! What kind of pressure does that big old bullet generate down the bore?

[hubel458]

They say within SAAMI specs for rifled barrels, it is a HP copper or

brass in those 20ga pictured and about 285 gr ,so it can go

fast without to much pressure. Not more than mag turkey loads.

I'm thinking and checking along the same lines in our 24ga FH, .585" bore 24ga,

that if we could find good plastic cases and use a heating groove deal we could

possibly lock the 585 Minies with the grooves, in real tight, with a good thick case.Ed

[cpileri]

I sent Tarhunt an email. Will report back on what I find out.

[hubel458]

b.bertram1@bigpond.com

He is the MAN. Bruce Bertram has done the most for big bore shooting.

This forum has the honor to be the first to hear

that a fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has talked the MAN

into making him an order of the full length 12ga From Hell cases.

Drawn cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, and get in on the run, contact him

at the email above right away... Ed

[No_1]

Ed,
YOU are the man! What an excellent thread. I have revised your title to "Slug Master" which seems very appropriate considering your contribution to this forum.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/2-8bore.jpg


The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.


Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.


We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/perfect12.jpg




Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/camo-en.jpg

[bikerbeans]

I must be a whimp, I have no desire to light off 275 grains of BP to push a 2 oz chunk of lead. That 8-bore is a very fine looking sxs.

BB

[hubel458]

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,


http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigsuppressor.jpg




Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/companion24.jpg




Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/perfect12open.jpg




Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/coyote2.jpg




Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with a variety of bullets..Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bbloads.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/midland24.jpg


Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases


http://www.gunownerstv.com/ballshot.jpg


Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further back, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mosin.jpg


Here is another picture of the PH 585HE with great looking stock.
Nice looking wood. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/coyote.jpg

[6pt-sika]

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/2-8bore.jpg



Now that gun floats my boat !

Same thing in a 10 or 12 bore ! Fully rifled or Paradox would work for me !

[hubel458]

There are guys on this Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.


Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bb.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver


wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.


Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.




http://www.gunownerstv.com/helixseal.jpg






Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.


It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,


by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a


Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported


the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.




http://www.gunownerstv.com/spooksar.jpg






That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The


2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,


from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.


He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..


Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED




http://www.gunownerstv.com/375lethal.jpg

[hubel458]

Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with


Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done.


Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.


Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email -----


b.bertram1@bigpond.com ......










Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......


.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.


Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,


Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms


muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make


these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..




Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,


a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.


The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).






http://www.gunownerstv.com/mitch3.jpg




Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.


The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed




http://www.gunownerstv.com/enchoate.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan


Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gavale.jpg




Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering


for our case as it came from production line,.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bbstamp.jpg




I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.


We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.


Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted


a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and


handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,




http://www.gunownerstv.com/buttnef.jpg




Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat


375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also.

This is bolt for Lawton Mitch used in 375 wildcat to

win the two mile shoot. Ed




http://www.gunownerstv.com/law585bolt.jpg

[hubel458]

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.




Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,


http://www.gunownerstv.com/cotw585.jpg




We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,


Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.


I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.


When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.


So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,


Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,


After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.


These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.


OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.


All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed




http://www.gunownerstv.com/boattailseat.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in


Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture




http://www.gunownerstv.com/brianbuff.jpg




http://www.gunownerstv.com/briangun.jpg




Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that


are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind


from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on


another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,


We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with


lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,


Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed


to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are


at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed....


http://www.gunownerstv.com/necking375.jpg

[Hamish]

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture



http://www.gunownerstv.com/briangun.jpg


That rifle deserves a thread of its own,,,,,,.

[hubel458]

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE


they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from


ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be


over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585blast.jpg






Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.


Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/375hecases.jpg




Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.


So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/testgun.jpg




Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,


test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.


When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys


Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,


Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for


our bigger case .Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/416he.jpg

[hubel458]

Anyone wanting to build 4 bore I got barrel to sell, 300 bucks,all

chambered for ours and Owen's 4 bore case. Pm if interested.

Ang I know guy who has cases and loading deal to sell.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbrake.jpg




Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/beforehydroafter.jpg




Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.


416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/416hsm.jpg


Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..




http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmbmg.jpg




Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..Ed

[Hogtamer]

Ed, to sort of get back to original topic for a post, so e of us would really like to have access to the 12 ga sabots that you had made a couple of years ago. Those showed great promise for anyone with a rifled 12 ga. Uncle Dino can custom make a bullet that fits perfectly but we gotta have sabots. What are our prospects for a run of a couple thousand from whoever molded those for you?

[uncle dino]

I would like some also...d

[jmort]

I have them ready to go, the Hubel 575 Sabots.
3 moves in 18 months got me way behind on this.
I can get them out. I owe Ed some as well. So I guess it's go time.
Why don't we start a seperate group buy thread and in the meantime I can get them out to Uncle Dino et al who need them now for development
Shoot me a PM

[hubel458]

Yep get with John, as he took over getting them going

being he had time to work with mfg.Ed

[Hogtamer]

Did that and the sabot show will be at the range again! Lots of potential for long range performance with Uncle Dino custom swaging boolits to fit. :guntootsmiley:

[cpileri]

Now theres a good idea!

[rolltide]

I have 2 NEF Ultra slug barrels that I need bored out for the 3.85" brass cases. Does someone rent a reamer? How or where do you guys get that work done? Also, what is the best source for 3.5" 12 ga plastic cases and 3.5" or 3.85" brass cases? RMC seems to only have the 3" cases now. I have some 50 BMG brass that I am going to try to swage rims onto, but this is all new to me, so I would like a source to purchase brass while I work on making my cases. My goal is to make a double rifle using 500gr to 600gr 50 cal bullets, that I swage myself using 308 brass for jackets, in 12ga sabots to duplicate 505 Gibbs ballistics (about 2100 to 2300 FPS). I plan to use this double as a stopping rifle for shots out to max 50 to 75 yards.

[hubel458]

You can buy reamer at ptg or jgs I think.

Bertram brass in AUS has drawn 12ga FH cases, ready to load,no need to make them

and cheaper than making them. And stronger than swaging the rims.Ed

[rolltide]

Ed, thanks for the response.

Buying them at about $150 is a little steep for single use. I found I can rent one at 4D Reamer Rentals for $35. I will probably use it on my Mossberg 500 slug gun as well. I could use it as a single shot 12 ga FH followed by 3" shells from the magazine.

Bertram has not answered emails. But I get BMG brass for about 35 cents each, and making the swaging dies myself, so I am going to give that a try. Swaged on rims should be a little stronger than the turned ones.

I really appreciate your ground breaking work in developing and sharing the 12 ga FH. I will keep you posted on my double rifle 12ga FH project if it actually comes to fruition. Just on the drawing board right now. I have the guns and barrels now, it is time to start solving design issues. and working my way to the end.

Thanks again for your great ideas and sharing them.

[Hogtamer]

jmort, sent you a pm.

[hubel458]

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mosin2.jpg

Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmsect.jpg

Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416heexp.jpg

[ohnomrbillk]

Ed

Does anyone make a tighter twist rifled 12 gauge barrel than Pac-nor?

I'm looking to push a heavy slug at 1050 fps or a little less.

I'm thinking the mag tech brass cases with a big slug loaded Locke a straight wall revolver case might just work.

I'm planning on using a bolt action like the savage.

Your input would be appreciated

[hubel458]

Pacnor made us 1 to 20 twist, I know of no faster ones.. Ed

[hubel458]

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416heexp.jpg


Shooters talking more now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of
powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416inout.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416heprint.jpg


Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pat1.jpg


Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416hsmpic.jpg



A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawton375.jpg

[ohnomrbillk]

Bertram brass in AUS has drawn 12ga FH cases, ready to load,no need to make them

and cheaper than making them. And stronger than swaging the rims.Ed

Where do you buy these cases?

[hubel458]

Bertram in Australia

b.bertram1@bigpond.com

[meauxcg]

I'm trying to get 3-5 12GFH cases 3" or longer but no one is returning emails, and RMC is 3 months out. Does anyone have a few they would cut loose and help a shooter out?
Primitive weapon season is 1 month out! meauxcg@aol.com
Thanks guys

[hubel458]

My cases all gone,

I just got some lead to sell, big bunch to sell, quit a few batches.

will sell 40 lbs including delivery for $100..Ed

[hubel458]

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...

http://www.gunownerstv.com/375hehotrod.jpg


Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed..



https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecision/videos/298031133934093/?fref=gs&dti=321360231548869&hc_location=group

[hubel458]

Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/375hehotrod2.jpg


Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmbarrett.jpg

[hubel458]

Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416process.jpg


We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmcnc.jpg

[megasupermagnum]

I've been reading a lot where you were testing different powders in both plastic shotgun cases and your own 12GA FH cases, and it is very interesting. You mention using RE 17 a lot, and of course SR 4759. I was also reading about some success with IMR 4227 in plastic hulls. Is there a reason you decided to go away from that powder?

[hubel458]

4227 didn't always give good ignition if powder and case got cold.

That is when we checked dozens of powders and found RE17..Ed

[hubel458]

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/thickthin.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............

http://www.gunownerstv.com/casedrawing.jpg

Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added

http://www.gunownerstv.com/allnyati.jpg

In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

[hubel458]

Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .

http://www.gunownerstv.com/brandxthick.jpg


Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/choate416he.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....

http://www.gunownerstv.com/brandv.jpg

Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/mrcphhsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from

another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and

it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too

thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/goodone.jpg

Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left.

Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/he4times.jpg

[appleseedgunsmith]

Hello, been doing more work on my own 20g heavy slug loads. I designed the old West molds 12bore bronto bruiser. Now I'm working on a 20ga rifled highwall. Barrel is a 600ne pac-nor heavy blank. Action modified and barrel octagoned by John Taylor. Current load is hardcast 756gr(old loads used commercial obtained same mold design weighing 720-735gr) modified Lyman 57730 @ 1250fps. Bpi CSD wads used as sabot.

221305

221304

[hubel458]

Great job....

About 416 cal bullets............

The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1.......

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

Paul Philips was third with a 416...

GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet..

Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED

[hubel458]

Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.

It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

BMG actions.... ED


http://www.gunownerstv.com/intermediates.jpg

[greenajd]

Does anyone have load data for ~1025 grain (2.3oz) slugs...…..from an Accurate Mold....

(Magtech Brass Shells & large pistol primer)...wanting to use Triple 7 powder...

"Reloading Brass Shotshells" does not go past 1.5 oz lead with 64-75 grains of Triple 7...……

I tried drilling out bases but couldn't get weight to less than 870 grains very easily

[megasupermagnum]

I'd be very careful, but the listed maximum of a Knight TK2000 (muzzle loading 12 gauge) is 2.5 ounces at 120 grains blackpowder.

[greenajd]

well might do a test shot (cheap gun in stand & me far away) today:
Magtech Brass Shell
870 grain slug (swaged to about 0.705")….had to wrap with Teflon tape due to size difference between Magtech shell ID & barrel Diameter & slug size
70 grains by weight Triple 7
1 Nitro Card top of powder followed by 2 fiber wads (11 guage from Ballistic Products)

[greenajd]

shot the load listed above, the 870 grain lead slug (cast from birdshot) made a huge dent in some ~ 1/8" steel (didn't penetrate from about 5 yards) & weight reduced to about 850 grains

this was in an old Eclipse shotgun with laminate steel barrels from a test stand (no indication of overload / damage to brass shell, primer, or old shotgun)

probably not very high performance or high velocity (don't know what accuracy would be)...I wanted some wall hanger / décor brass slug loads to go with an old double barrel but wanted them to be safe if anyone ever tried them [didn't want fake loads]

[bikerbeans]

green,

Sounds like something i would do. Glad you had fun and your old double is still intact.

BB

[greenajd]

shot this one off the shoulder, pretty mild recoil, not too sharp of a kick
~ 800 grain slug (0.705" wrapped with Teflon tape)
73 grains by weight Triple 7
1 Nitro card & 2 Fiber wads
Magtech brass
made big dent in 1/8 steel, almost penetrated, small rip in middle of dent

[hubel458]

In modern gun..Use one less wad, replace with powder, might punch hole through plate.


Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/interboltp.jpg


Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

Good pictures............www.585he.cz

We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.

Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

Action worked fine.. Ed.

[hubel458]

Use in modern gun, one wad, card, replace with powder, might punch hole through plate.


Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/interboltp.jpg


Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

Good pictures............www.585he.cz

We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.

Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

Action worked fine.. Ed.

[hubel458]

Here is video of early water barrel test of the

12ga From Hell, from years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk


Here is picture from that video..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Shot%203.jpg



Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/intertargetp.jpg

[ohnomrbillk]

Ed,

Does your 700 Hubel Express fire a 0.729” Bullet?

I’m making 0.729 jacketed bullets and want to find a test bed or two.

I’ve seen reference to a 729 Jongman. Seems like a rimless 12gaFH.

Looking forward to your response.

[hubel458]

Our 700 fires .700" bullet.

Easiest way is to get 12ga NEF Ultra with bull barrel,

and lengthen its chamber from 3" to 3.5" and get 3.5" RMC

brass cases, made. That would give them a fair test, Ed

[hubel458]

In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed

and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmholders.jpg



http://www.gunownerstv.com/workinghsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Bob Snapp, the great Gun Craftsman, of

Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

He was an esteemed member of the

American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

Being its president in 1992..He liked

working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles.

We lost a great friend,,,Ed

[firefly1957]

A few times on here i have seen people post things about clubs and places that let me know they are in my area i am in Clare county (Harrison) I have heard the name Bob Snapp do not recall if here or not did he go by a different handle here at castboolits?
I read though his obituary and believe i had met him a couple times while i was in high school i had gone with a buddy and his father to a gun shop in Royal Oak attached to a house the gun shop owner being a friend of my Friends father. Reading the second article makes me wonder though unless he stayed in royal oak a couple years after he bought up here i believe it was 1971 or 72 that i was there ?

https://www.stephenson-wyman.com/obituaries/Robert-Snapp-2/#!/Obituary

http://www.clarecountyreview.com/news/faces-in-the-crowd-bob-snapp/