12GA FH Slug Tester -- [Archive] - Page 2

hubel458

03-17-2009, 10:47 PM

The NEFs at 10 lbs aren't too bad but any weight helps
with hairy loads. We tested Encore prohunter 12ga and it will
do 90% of the NEF power, with its barrel size.
I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

hubel458

03-19-2009, 11:09 PM

I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong
roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed

hubel458

03-25-2009, 11:50 PM

I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.In all of this
brass and plastic, no airspace use wads when needed.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like
RE-17.Just great fun to use slower powder, so that
we don't have to worry about fast, high peak pressures,
but yet get large volumne, pressure curve for good velocity.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
email him to deal to get some- garnickrob@aol.com
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.

hubel458

03-30-2009, 02:18 AM

Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum,
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/IM12Even/IMG_0509.jpg

hubel458

04-01-2009, 11:11 PM

Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1873.jpg

Red River Rick

04-01-2009, 11:59 PM

Hubel458:

This has been a very interesting thread, I've been following it all along, very informative. Only problem is, it keeps my head spinning because of all the ideas your planting.

Question: The 346 gr. aluminum slugs, what kind of velocity have been getting with these? And, what kind of energy would these slugs retain, at say 100 and 150 yards, compaired to muzzle energy?

RRR

hubel458

04-06-2009, 12:41 AM

You can get 3000 fps with those slugs in 3.5" brass case.
I got AL cored jkt slug 360gr over 3000 in long barrel NEF.
So they'd be effctive to 100 yds at least, and drop
off fast past 200 yds. Less recoil even with velocity
compared to say the following.
Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1883.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1880.jpg

hubel458

04-13-2009, 01:13 AM

One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

Al in Mi

04-14-2009, 04:11 AM

is he getting any accuracy?

hubel458

04-16-2009, 11:10 PM

He hasn't best acurracy with those loads yet.
I think you have to back off a little for best accuracy.
But you would still have African rifle equivalent power easy.

Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double
10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0285.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0286.JPG

hubel458

04-20-2009, 03:35 AM

Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed

hubel458

04-25-2009, 11:34 PM

Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8inef.jpg

hubel458

04-29-2009, 11:08 PM

Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was
made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and tested other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed

http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06juna.jpg

hubel458

05-02-2009, 11:46 PM

Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefmono.jpg

hubel458

05-07-2009, 11:18 PM

I got some 635 gr cast HP slugs of .660 diameter to test out in thickwall
wadcups in my rifled NEF long barrel.They are for rifled barrels.

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is a prime example of a case extracting so easy
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed

hubel458

05-10-2009, 10:43 PM

Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0362.JPG

hubel458

05-16-2009, 04:28 AM

I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/stblb.jpg

hubel458

05-22-2009, 12:48 AM

Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr cast bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 cast at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef585.jpg

hubel458

05-25-2009, 11:28 PM

Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/stbl.jpg

hubel458

06-02-2009, 01:49 AM

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a cast zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8z.jpg

hubel458

06-06-2009, 09:46 PM

Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbc.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbt.jpg

hubel458

06-11-2009, 10:40 PM

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.I plan on seeing as
this will be smoothbore shooting 1600gr cast hollowbase slugs.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbo.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/naval.jpg

7,62 x 54R

06-15-2009, 10:46 AM

Thinking about buying my self a Lyman Sabot Slug Bullet Mold 12 Gauge (681 Diameter) 525 Grain.
Is there someone who can tell me about his / her experience with this type of lyman sabot slug.
I searching for load data and/or test results as well.:coffeecom

hubel458

06-16-2009, 11:39 PM

With 150gr RE17 I've gotten them to 2300 in a 3.5" plastic
case in my 36" barreled NEF. Used WW12-114 wadcup.

Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wcpl.jpg

hubel458

06-24-2009, 11:36 PM

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.
I also have found 700cal cast slugs.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef700h.jpg

hubel458

06-27-2009, 11:19 PM

Here is picture of wad column I set with Lyman cast slug,
With BPI seals on the left and regular WIN shotcup on right.
I cut the cushion off the WIN cup and put BPI seals with it.
It seals better to get over a 150 fps extra..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wclyman.jpg

hubel458

07-05-2009, 12:03 PM

In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga cast slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph700gun.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph12ga.jpg

hubel458

07-18-2009, 10:50 PM

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most
cast 12ga bullets like Dixies, the overall length with
3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture
PH from bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbot.jpg

wonderwolf

07-19-2009, 12:11 PM

I would not mind a 4 bore myself, How well does the 20mm brass work for that? I've picked up a few pcs here and there to have on hand if the day ever came. Do you have cartridge specs on the rounds? and what are you using to load them with? Lee hammer type loader like John Ross does( I think)?

hubel458

07-30-2009, 02:45 AM

20mm cases are what I will use mostly.
Cases specs the same as Ken Owen's 2bore
turned cases he had RMC make. His specs are
1" bore, case rim 1.200", base 1.093",
mouth 1.043", 4.050" long. Pic below 2 left cases
are from 20mm and 2 rights are Owen's.

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown,
and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

hubel458

08-05-2009, 12:24 AM

Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.
I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of
about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbul.jpg

hubel458

08-13-2009, 11:36 PM

I got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really get the
speed in 3.5" cases. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

turbo1889

08-18-2009, 11:49 AM

Hey, Hubel, my GF has been loading up some 12ga. loads using your R-17 load data and it got me wondering. You think that the R-17 would work well in the 20ga. for full-bore solid slugs out of a factory 20ga. NEF-USH as well.

I have a custom mold that drops 20ga. 1-oz. full bore solids:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-03-01_173219_20ga_Solid_450gr_Slug.JPG

I started out loading them with Blue Dot, then I went to STEEL, and finally to 2400 in order to produce progressively more powerful loads while still staying within safe pressures by using progressively slower burning powders. I was thinking about trying R-7 next since I've had good luck with it with 410 slug loads but those R-17 loads you suggested and my GF has been loading seem to be really friendly to the hulls. Except for the roll crimp portion they still look like once-fired hulls after several loadings. Since 20ga. usually uses slightly slower powders then 12ga. I would think that if it's fast enough to work for 12ga. it should probably work for 20ga. as well.

What would you suggest for a start load charge? I will just work it up slowly until I either run out of powder space or I start getting sticky extraction and then back off to the point before it got sticky. Just need a start point because I am completely unfamiliar with this powder and this will be the first time I will be using it.

hubel458

08-19-2009, 01:37 AM

The RE17 will be great for 20ga.You could start at 60gr, and probably
go all the way to full loads with a seal and minimum 1/4" cushion wad.
If a regular shotgun barrel you still want to use a seal and cushion.
Don't use 2400 and RE7 you take a chance on misfires or hang fires.

Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action.
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.
And they have a nice style...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28d.jpg

turbo1889

08-19-2009, 02:15 AM

Thanks for the start point on R-17 for 20ga. Much appreciated. :drinks:

And as far as your advise to not use 2400 in the 20ga. I will have to respectfully disagree. I have built and fired over a hundred slug loads using it and those loads were based on published pressure tested load data that was intended for conventional 1-1/4oz. shot loads that was used as a starting point. Now I have been using FED-209A primers exclusively (the published data also called for them) and I haven’t had any ignition problems - 2400 does produce more powerful slug loads in the 20ga. then I have been able to do with STEEL within safe pressure limits but I think I can do even better with R-17 and get more loads out of my hulls to boot.

I'll take your word for R-7 not working in the 20ga. I haven’t tried it myself - but I do know it works in the 410-bore, of course once again I've been using the hot FED-209A primers, though.

madman

08-19-2009, 01:57 PM

I don't know about the loads but a GF like that is worth her weight in gold, forget the cooking and cleaning crap does she like to hunt fish and go camping? If so you better make her your wife.

hubel458

08-23-2009, 04:44 AM

We had misfires with 2400 and RE7 in 12ga., 10ga.
Which is why I mentioned it. Now I realize that the much
smaller diameter of the 20 gauge case , nearly down to
the size of 577NE, my 585HE, accounts for the fact
that it works.In my 585 I can fire any powder no matter how
slow it is with large rifle primers, and they are 10% weaker
than shotgun primers. The RE7 should work in 20 ga or
smaller if other powders do. Keep up the good work and
let us know hoe the RE17 goes in your 20ga.ED

hubel458

08-26-2009, 12:36 AM

We get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

http://www.corbins.com/images/finslugs.gif

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/images/slug_aq.JPG

hubel458

09-02-2009, 01:22 AM

Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case basecups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mauserd.jpg

hubel458

09-05-2009, 11:01 PM

Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gregsl.jpg

longbow

09-05-2009, 11:16 PM

I made a mould to cast 6 finned slugs but have as yet to get good accuracy from it.

The first problem was collapsing fins so I oven heat treated and loaded a little lighter to solve that. Then I had hard card wads shredding between the fins (not enough support is my take). Poly disks under the slugs solved that one.

Last outing I loaded them over and into plastic wads but found the plastic wads must be distorting - they tore and burned up badly both on full bore finned slugs and some turned down to fit into a shotcup.

The finned slug info:

- 0.730" diameter
- 580 gr.
- 6 fins @ 1/8" thick- tried loading over plastic gas seal and hard card wad stack adn also into plastic shotcup when turned to 0.680"
- powder charge 35 grs. Blue Dot

I had forgotten that Corbin has finned slugs. Do you have loading data? If they work, mine should. I will be doing some more testing shortly so any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Longbow

hubel458

09-20-2009, 12:06 AM

I don't have any data for finned slugs, but I am going to try
different ones to see what is needed under them
for support and what loads work best.
I think if you try larger amounts of a slower powder like
my RE17 loads that the fins would work without treating and
seals work without damage. RE17 gets to its peak pressure in
large bores 3 times longer than shotgun powders, so its easier
start is easier on components. If loading a 3" case with that weight
slug, try a 90gr of RE17. In 3" I go up to 115gr in that weight slug
in a Savage slug barrel on Mauser pictured above.Other project-

This could be called 32ga, rimmed case, straight sides.
Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case.
325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499nef.jpg

hubel458

09-25-2009, 02:13 AM

Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise readt to be crimped...Ed

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/870_super_slug_780.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/drill.jpg

hubel458

10-03-2009, 03:12 AM

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.
On the net- ammunitiontogo.com
This one is about 500 gr. With a mold and plastic
pieces to pop on, you could do one piece slugs .

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/images/Monolit%2032.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499he.jpg

hubel458

10-08-2009, 01:03 AM

Some more testing with RE17 powder. I used it in 2.75",
3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the
best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our
long case with BMG primer.
Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi.
I took couple of our first made 3.85" BMG based
long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers
to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug
and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in
BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus.
Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus
slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel.
But that is great- nice as it seems we're being copied!!!ED

turbo1889

10-09-2009, 07:38 PM

Hey, hubel, if you get a chance would you mind working up and posting some "Un-Modified Modern Factory 3" Chamber - Bull Barrel Only" loads for IMR 4759 & 4227 for slug weights from Lyman 525 at the lightest up to the really heavy 800+ grain full bore slugs just like you did for Reloader-17 ????

I've got some of those powders and although I know Reloader-17 will give better performance, I also know that those powders will do better then just plain old Blue-Dot and maybe give me a little more room inside the hull for wadding components then R-17. I want loads that are more powerful then Blue-Dot but a little tamer then a full case of R-17 with just a 1/4" of cushion and a gas seal. I'm thinking like Fed 12S4 wads with the petals cut off under the slug, over the powder. If there is more room that needs filled up then cushion wads between it and the slug. A little lower velocity and a little more cushion in the wad section then the R-17 loads but still plenty of nock down.

Call me a sissy if you want too but I fired some of my GF loads that she built with my 740 grain full bore solids from my custom mold that she built like you said to for R-17 and I liked the results down-range but not so much on my-end. I’m used to firing loads with 40 to 42 grains of Blue-Dot or 45+ grains of STEEL and those are okay and I wouldn’t mind having a few loads with more horse-power then those but not quite as much horsepower as those 115grain R-17 loads pack.

Oh, yah, the R-17 works absolutely beautiful in my 20ga. Full case 3" loads with a little bit of cushion and a gas seal like you said were still extracting smooth as silk with no stickiness. Lots of muzzle flash and boom but I expected that. Those are going to be my river bottom deer hunting loads this season. Would probably work for bear and elk as well but I'm more comfortable with the 12ga. for those applications. Don't have my load book in front of me right now or I'd give you the exact charge I worked them up to. I'll probably post again later with that info.

hubel458

10-13-2009, 06:55 PM

For Lymans use 92gr of 4759 or 95 gr 4227.
For 600gr Dixie use 90gr of 4759 or 92gr of 4227.
For 730 gr Dixie or equivalent use 85gr 4759 or 87gr of 4227.
For 870 gr Full bore slugs use 80 gr 4759 or 82 gr of 4227.

But if you want to go slower I would rather you reduce the
RE17 loads and put in extrawads. It is so much easier on
cases and guns. You could go down to 95 gr fine.Ed

So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
Maybe find plastic and cast for it.Ed

http://www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com/images/P7190013_s.jpg

hubel458

10-21-2009, 03:42 AM

The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug a while back.
He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to get
after their dealers to work to import these for them
to have what seems a good slug to reload...

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed

hubel458

10-25-2009, 03:17 AM

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup
with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was
kind enough to send me a few of each weight
to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right.
They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in
3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and
in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both.
With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug
is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My
smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle,
a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth
bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle,
and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot
kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a
heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle,
1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug
gun with slugs like these, and others like the
Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs
are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the
Brenekke KOs.In the picture the left two cases
are 3.5" Fiocchi with the Fiocchi magnum primers.
I compared that primer to the REM 209 primer and
it has about the same strength.Next two are FED 3.5".
then 2 12GA FH 3.85" cases, then 3.5" RMC brass, then
3" RMC brass, the 2 WIN 3.5", then 2 REM 3.5".
About half the slugs in the pic are cast, including
those in the sabots and wadcups, except the
US-S ones. Heaviest is 1040gr left 1st row that
Greg makes.Then the 870 gr he makes.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslug.jpg

hubel458

10-28-2009, 02:07 AM

For the slugs shown above I'd like to see the how cast
versions of the US-S would work in that setup.
And cast versions of the monolith shown earler.

I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set
up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with
feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I
had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer
than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding
long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The
700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. The RMC 3.5" case with
a cast truncated cone slug will fit in this mag box and feed also.
And shorter 3.5" plastic will feed also with slugs. In picture
case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under
extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is
the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed
for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together.
Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. Spring fit in the
PH bottom metal slots fine. ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700phfeed.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700box.jpg

peter nap

10-28-2009, 06:03 AM

For the slugs shown above I'd like to see the how cast
versions of the US-S would work in that setup.
And cast versions of the monolith shown earler.

/img]

I started making the push through mold to make a cast version of the US-S slugs,the other day Ed. I should finish it today and the wads will be here sometime this week I hope. Muzzle loader season opens Saturday so it will be a few days before I finish the slugs and get a chance to test them. I'll let you know as soon as I do.

hubel458

11-05-2009, 12:39 AM

The slug has peg on the back to hold the base onto the slug. I hope
you can cast them that way or leave a hole and screw on the base.
Where did you find the white sabot part.

The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000
in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group
at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with
for smoothbores.
Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled
barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long
brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting
on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype,
third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some,
as it is much easier way. First in picture is
16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long,
3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafh.jpg.

longbow

11-05-2009, 03:12 AM

I have tried attaching all sorts of base wads to slugs and so far have been largely unsuccessful.

Any plastic gas seal/cushion legs I have tried are too fragile. I thought I had a good one with a steel shot wad as it appeared to be pretty similar to the cushion leg on the Gualandi DGS slug but they failed and after shooting comparison with a DGS showed that the DGS cushion leg and gas seal were quite a bit thicker and tougher.

I will be very interested if someone find one that works.

In the mean time, I will be looking for some really heavy felt to try punching out felt wads with screw holes in them for slugs I cast with a central hole for the screw Brenneke style.

I am having another test run of my ribbed hollow base slugs this week. This round has a thickened skirt to resist deformation on firing but I am thinking a solid with attached basewad is the way to go.

By the way Ed, I don't know how you find the time to do so much and post so much information but I am glad you make the time. This is really interesting!

Thanks,
Longbow

peter nap

11-05-2009, 09:50 AM

The slug has peg on the back to hold the base onto the slug. I hope
you can cast them that way or leave a hole and screw on the base.
Where did you find the white sabot part.

I'm using these wads from BPI Ed.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/images/wad_lb12.jpg

They appear to be the same thing used on the US Slug

I'm just cutting the petals off of a WAA wad and slipping them between the slug and hull when loading. They rest on the ledge of the wad.

I have also started playing with the Lyman Sabot slugs inverted and glued to the wad. (Same breakaway petal arrangment)

After roll crimping, I'm hot gluing a .45 round ball in the cavity. Gives me about 650 grains. 45 was all I had on hand but Ajay tried one a little larger and got over 700 grains. I don't know if he's shot hi yet but mine shoot fairly well and expand like crazy.

peter nap

11-05-2009, 11:39 AM

Here's the cut off shotcup
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a1-1.jpg

The Petals still in a complete circle

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a2.jpg

Invert the shotcup so the gas seal is on TOP and glue the slug in

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a3.jpg

A BPI gas seal goes under the inverted wad.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a4.jpg

Cut one side of the Petal ring. This is so the ring will come off easily. You can cut both if you want and it may be a little more accurate.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a5.jpg

Load them like a one piece wad

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a6.jpg

After the roll crimp (Not shown here) you can add the ball to the hollow or just leace as a massive hollow point.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/a7-1.jpg

longbow

11-05-2009, 08:50 PM

peter nap:

Have you had any problems with glue failure? Just wondering because I have found hot melt to shear at the bond with the slug in some cases. I started drilling a small hole and installing a screw part way in then hot melt so the wad couldn't separate even if the glue failed.

And a comment on the wad petals. I tried using wad petals as shims for an undersize Brenneke style slug. That didn't go so well. I am not sure exactly what happened but I suspect the petals slipped and got wedged between the attached basewad and barrel because recoil was fierce and the case stuck in the chamber. I didn't shoot any more of those.

In your case maybe not such an issue as the plastic wad may give enough if this happens but I was using stacked nitro card wads so a solid basewad.

Anyway, be careful!

How are you finding accuracy with the reversed slug? I know a fellow who is currently shooting Rapine 730550 slugs reversed through a rifled choke tube and they are doing better than when shot nose forward.

Longbow

peter nap

11-05-2009, 10:15 PM

There are still a lot of things to work out longbow. The glue is holding pretty well. If you have ever used Epoxy rivets, try it on the slug. Just use a small ball point dremil bit on the slug and make a hole larger inside than the entrance hole. Mix epoxy (I use West System 3 (because I have ten gallons of it) with a thickener and drill a small hole in the wad under the one in the slug. slather the base of the slug and get plenty in the hole you drilled. It will ooze out of the wad hole. Use your finger to flatten it and you have a rivet.

So far, it's held. Hot glue did not and neither did fletchtite.

I haven't had any problem with the petals jamming.

If I keep the velocity up, I really don't need the glued on wad. It doesn't become unstable until it slows down at about 50 yards but....I'm not really shooting hot loads either. I think it will to 100 yards if I get around 110 grains of the RE17 in it.

I'll have to either cut the cushion off or leave the gas seal out to do it.

turbo1889

11-10-2009, 09:54 PM

Update - R17 Slug Loads for Un-Modified Bull Barrel 20ga. Guns:

Okay, so just letting you guys know that for a 1-oz weight full bore solid 20ga. slug 75 grains is your minimum charge and 100 grains is your max charge with Reloader-17 powder in a 3" 20ga. hull, roll crimped, and with a Fed-209-A primer. For a wad column I used a Fed. 20S1 wad with the petals cut off and a single 20ga. nitro card on top of that and under the slug. You can use a lower charge then 75 grains all the way down to the 60 grains Ed Hubel originally recommended as a start load but the powder burns different at that low of a charge and it makes a different sound when the gun goes off, the recoil is significantly less, and there is a lot more powder junk in the barrel. Long story short I don't think it burns right at charges less then 75 grains in this set-up so I think that is what the minimum load should be.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1580

As the charge is increased and you roll crimp the hull you start compressing the coiled cushion section on the Fed. 20S1 wad more and more until a maximum load leaves you with a completely compressed cushion section and a very short roll crimp. They work darn well too. I've taken one deer so far this season and it was with one of these loads at the maximum charge of 100 grains. It was a large bodied 3x4 point whitetail buck in river bottom below my place (haven’t had time to really hunt anywhere else). Shot was long - 160+ yards if my pacing it off was anywhere near correct. Broad side shot aimed for his front shoulders so he would drop where you stood but hit about six inches to the right and further back on his body and the slug went right behind his shoulder and was about 8 inches high compared to where I wanted it to hit (figured the drop would be less then my previous loads at that range but didn't figure it would be that much less). Anyway it was a lungs only shot so he ran a hundred yards before you dropped. Punched a hole clean through and on the exit side it hit one of the rib bones and punched a 3/4 of a circle in it that looks like it was cut with a CNC high pressure water stream cutter.

I don't know what the muzzle velocity is but it's high - it probably won't be till after the holidays that I have the time to burn to drag out the Crony to the range and do some velocity measurement for this load and a lot of other slug loads that I need to check but I'll update again when I do. :drinks:

Previous post history on this subject:

Hey, Hubel, my GF has been loading up some 12ga. loads using your R-17 load data and it got me wondering. You think that the R-17 would work well in the 20ga. for full-bore solid slugs out of a factory 20ga. NEF-USH as well.

I have a custom mold that drops 20ga. 1-oz. full bore solids:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-03-01_173219_20ga_Solid_450gr_Slug.JPG

I started out loading them with Blue Dot, then I went to STEEL, and finally to 2400 in order to produce progressively more powerful loads while still staying within safe pressures by using progressively slower burning powders. I was thinking about trying R-7 next since I've had good luck with it with 410 slug loads but those R-17 loads you suggested and my GF has been loading seem to be really friendly to the hulls. Except for the roll crimp portion they still look like once-fired hulls after several loadings. Since 20ga. usually uses slightly slower powders then 12ga. I would think that if it's fast enough to work for 12ga. it should probably work for 20ga. as well.

What would you suggest for a start load charge? I will just work it up slowly until I either run out of powder space or I start getting sticky extraction and then back off to the point before it got sticky. Just need a start point because I am completely unfamiliar with this powder and this will be the first time I will be using it.

The RE17 will be great for 20ga.You could start at 60gr, and probably
go all the way to full loads with a seal and minimum 1/4" cushion wad.
If a regular shotgun barrel you still want to use a seal and cushion.
Don't use 2400 and RE7 you take a chance on misfires or hang fires. . . .

Thanks for the start point on R-17 for 20ga. Much appreciated. :drinks:

And as far as your advise to not use 2400 in the 20ga. I will have to respectfully disagree. I have built and fired over a hundred slug loads using it and those loads were based on published pressure tested load data that was intended for conventional 1-1/4oz. shot loads that was used as a starting point. Now I have been using FED-209A primers exclusively (the published data also called for them) and I haven’t had any ignition problems - 2400 does produce more powerful slug loads in the 20ga. then I have been able to do with STEEL within safe pressure limits but I think I can do even better with R-17 and get more loads out of my hulls to boot.

I'll take your word for R-7 not working in the 20ga. I haven’t tried it myself - but I do know it works in the 410-bore, of course once again I've been using the hot FED-209A primers, though.

We had misfires with 2400 and RE7 in 12ga., 10ga.
Which is why I mentioned it. Now I realize that the much
smaller diameter of the 20 gauge case , nearly down to
the size of 577NE, my 585HE, accounts for the fact
that it works.In my 585 I can fire any powder no matter how
slow it is with large rifle primers, and they are 10% weaker
than shotgun primers. The RE7 should work in 20 ga or
smaller if other powders do. Keep up the good work and
let us know hoe the RE17 goes in your 20ga.ED
. . . . the R-17 works absolutely beautiful in my 20ga. Full case 3" loads with a little bit of cushion and a gas seal like you said were still extracting smooth as silk with no stickiness. Lots of muzzle flash and boom but I expected that. Those are going to be my river bottom deer hunting loads this season. Would probably work for bear and elk as well but I'm more comfortable with the 12ga. for those applications. Don't have my load book in front of me right now or I'd give you the exact charge I worked them up to. I'll probably post again later with that info.

hubel458

11-12-2009, 01:54 PM

peternap-Thay inverted slug looks real wicked.
Imagine the energy transfer in game with that.

turbo-That is great, RE17 has taken a buck at 150 plus yards.

I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including
two Savage 210s in the lineup and 2 NEFs,and 1887Win,
and Mauser GEHA.......SO passing the first
12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action.
Its in original Savage stock now, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel.
Stock is weighted and double thick recoil pad.
It is chambered for the original 3.85" long
12GA FH case. Uses shorter cases also.
750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and
30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage
and the second 12GA FH ever built. Pickup here for MI
guys ok also. Savage 210s are now 550 bucks, the heavy
rifled barrel cost me 350 bucks..Ed

Rip

11-12-2009, 08:43 PM

Turbo1889,
Ed Hubel gave headsup on your immediate success.
Congratulations.
I am just starting down the 20 Gauge slug road.
Thanks for the information.
Your chrono will be interesting.
2000 fps?

hubel458

11-19-2009, 02:22 AM

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5"
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gabelt.jpg

eye shot

11-21-2009, 11:06 PM

Hubel458
How many GRS. RE17 would you use behind a 525 Lyman in a 2.75 hull?

tommygirlMT

11-22-2009, 11:45 AM

Hubel458
How many GRS. RE17 would you use behind a 525 Lyman in a 2.75 hull?

I don't think you can make it work in a 2-3/4" hull with R-17 because you desperatly need that extra 1/4" for powder space.

If I were going to try it though I think I'd use the Federal Gold Medal hulls because they are about the highest internal capacity 2-3/4" hulls out there.

FGM Hull, Fed. 209A Primer, 100gr. R-17, Original BPGS then 1/8" 12ga. nitro then 525 Lyman inside WAA12 shot cup with the cushion section and gas seal cut off the bottom, 12ga. Overshot Card, Tight Roll Crimp -------- That might work.

peter nap

11-22-2009, 12:09 PM

I don't think you can make it work in a 2-3/4" hull with R-17 because you desperatly need that extra 1/4" for powder space.

If I were going to try it though I think I'd use the Federal Gold Medal hulls because they are about the highest internal capacity 2-3/4" hulls out there.

FGM Hull, Fed. 209A Primer, 100gr. R-17, Original BPGS then 1/8" 12ga. nitro then 525 Lyman inside WAA12 shot cup with the cushion section and gas seal cut off the bottom, 12ga. Overshot Card, Tight Roll Crimp -------- That might work.

Question for you Tommygirl. You've probablu used RE17 more than anyone else here.

Every time I think I have the RE17 ignition problem licked, it starts up again with a new loading.

Yesterday I had no cases ignite out of ten.
95 grains og RE17, tight roll crimp, CCI 209M primer, tried them in three different guns.

The primers are firing. They were pushing the bullet halfway down the barrel.

When I removed the slugs and examined the powder, a bout half was black (It was all black when loaded) and half brown, like saw dust.

When I light the powder with a match, it all burns.

This is the same can I bought new three or four weeks ago.

I talked to Alliant about it and he said he never heard of anyone using it in a 12 ga and had no idea. His only sugguesstion was try RE7 and the usual, you'll shoot your eye out.

Any idea at all what's going on.

tommygirlMT

11-22-2009, 05:45 PM

1 ~ When you say tight roll crimp do you mean tight or do you mean fully compressed wad column and the roll crimp is the only thing keeping the slug from jumping out of the hull because the wading underneath it is compressed like a coiled spring?

2 ~ CCI-209-M are good but FED-209-A are better.

That first one was more of a statement then a question. And I should explain how to do that. Basically when you do a roll crimp the regular way you are limited by how much you can compress the wad column by the fact that rolled over plastic has to do the compressing. You can get around this by putting a "direct downward compression force transferer spacer (DDCFTS)" between your roll crimp head and the nose of the slug. At least that's my name for it. Sounds more complicated then it is. Basically go down to the local hard wood store and get yourself a length of 1/2" diameter hard-wood dowel rod. Then take a fine tooth little hand saw and cut yourself a length of it --- start at about a 1/4" length. Then when your roll crimp center that inside the hull and on top of the slug nose and then when you press down with the roll crimp head it will directly transfer the force to the slug and the wad column and compress them. The plastic gets rolled down at the same time to the point where you have completely compressed the wad column as much as possible and the DDCFTS is keeping the roll crimp head from going down any further. When you stop pushing down the slug will pop back upwards inside the hull until it hits the edge of the rolled in plastic. For regular full power maximum loads of R-17 it should pop back up about a 1/16 of an inch and that's it. With minimim are near minimum loads with R-17 (Why would you want reduced loads becomes the question in the back of my mind?) I imagine you would have to have almost zero backlash in there and it doesn't pop up at all but is tight at full wad column compression and stays that way. You can adjust the amount of this pop-up or backlash by adjusting the length of the DDCFTS. If you end up doing this a lot you might want to start looking to make yourself some some of a better stronger material then hardwood. I have a couple made of steel rod that one end is concave to match the curve of the slug nose and the other is convex to match the curve in the center of my Precision Reloading metal roll crimper. But simple cut lengths of a 1/2" dowel work just fine too, they will wear out though and you have to cut new ones every once in a while. Don't try using a stack of metal washers from the hardwood store they all individually slip around off center and get stuck under the roll crimped plastic while your trying to roll crimp it.

peter nap

11-22-2009, 06:07 PM

Thanks TG!
I'll try it again. I did something very close to what you described using plugs cut from chioboard.

I didn't look for spring back but the crimp considerably beyond the LOA Ed gave me.

I must be getting some of them right because on some batches, I get 100%. The next one may or may not be the same.

Frustrating!

tommygirlMT

11-22-2009, 08:54 PM

Would you mind telling me exactly what your using? Slug and wad column, if multiple components in order of stacking from bottom to top, and your usual finished OAL --- those three things especially.

eye shot

11-22-2009, 09:01 PM

[

IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s212/roundwp/001.jpg[/IMG]
The 525 is a weight forward slug so to keep it flying right I made up non discarding sabots. I cut off the wads below the shot cup and grinde the bottom smooth and flat. Then put on slug upside down. I used ww12r, Fed.02, and green Down Range wads. The best fit was the Fed's. A 1/4" nitro card under the slug and then a X12X gas seal and a pile of RE17. Plenty of room for a good tite roll crimp. I have three slug guns that eat the pettals off the wads, they should stay on now!

I fired these yesterday at 50yds. and got nice round holes. I only got a 3" group but my scope was broke. I looked very hard and could not find any sheared off wad petals like usual with the wad right side up. The RE17 is a pleasure to shoot! I had one FTF with a WAA12R, it will not hold enough pressure for ignistion. My 525 with shot cup upside down on it with .25 nito card under slug and one X12X gas seal in a 2.75 Fiocchi primed hull with 90grs. RE17 roll crimped all fired fine.

peter nap

11-22-2009, 09:14 PM

Would you mind telling me exactly what your using? Slug and wad column, if multiple components in order of stacking from bottom to top, and your usual finished OAL --- those three things especially.

I've used a lot of combos including one close to what eye shot just posted. I posted it above somewhere.

The one I just had o ignition with was a standard setup.
Lyman Sabot slug
WAA12 F14 wad with a nitro card in the bottom of the cup. Roll crimped to an LOA of 2.622.

3" BPI Multihulls
95 grains of RE17
CCI 209 M

tommygirlMT

11-22-2009, 09:53 PM

two things I notice about that combination. First the Winchester wads are designed to go inside a tapered hull and if you put them in a straight walled hull (such as your BPI multihulls) the gas seal is too small for the hull and you don't get as good a seal during initial ignition (when everything is still all together inside the hull and nothing has started moving yet). With shotgun speed powders usually not a problem just add a grain or two to make up for the difference. If you look through some published load data that uses both straight and tapered wads in a straight hull you will notice that the loads with the tapered hulls call for a little more powder --- this is why. With R-17 your going to have a hard time making up the difference.

Secondly, sounds like you are using the defunct WAA12F114 wad (Winchester no longer sells it to reloaders, so it's either old stock or clones from claybuster, downrange, etc.) It also sounds like you are using it with the original cushion section left as is --- you will be hard pressed to get very good powder compression out of the weak and flimsy cushion sections on any of the WAA wads. At least good enough compression for 100% reliable R-17 powder loads.

Swap out your WAA12F114 for a Fed. 12S4 dark brown wonder wad and it will solve both problems. You should be able to leave everything else the same in the load.

peter nap

11-22-2009, 09:59 PM

hubel458

11-25-2009, 01:02 AM

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.
I think same idea can do with hard cast slugs
with pin to lock to the plastic base.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usapart.jpg

turbo1889

11-30-2009, 02:58 AM

Update - Second Deer Falls Victim to My R17 20ga. Slug Loads, Even Longer Range!

Okay, so I starting to wonder if the only deer I was going to put in the freezer this year was going to be that buck I shot earlier. Last couple days of the season after the Thanksgiving Holiday and we finally got snow !!! So on Black Friday when I figured everyone else would be either hitting the stores or sleeping in I went out hunting again. Boy was I wrong, :holysheep , everyone must have had the same idea and went hunting. On the state land river bottom there was a solid wall of trucks parked along the fence next to the road --- more then I have ever seen before. Turned right there and went up to some private farm land about half a mile away where I am one of only four people besides the owner and his family that has permission to hunt. All three of the other guys were already there and the sun hadn't even come up yet !!!! So I took up a position on the extreme corner of his land hoping that between the crowd over on the state land on one side and the other three guys on the other side something would get squeezed my direction. No luck. About the same thing took place the next day Saturday although it wasn't quite as crowded. Those deer were really getting pressured and were scared silly and wouldn't show themselves for anything.

So by this morning the last day of the season things weren't looking real good for me to fill either of my two doe tags, but I still went out at the crack of dawn and stuck to the private land and worked it over real quite until about 9 a.m. and then after seeing nothing - not even any fresh sign I called it quits and headed for the farm house hoping to be offered a seat at the table for a good home cooked breakfast under the excuse of just stepping in for a moment to use the restroom and then I'd head off to church. Well, as usual it worked and Ryan, the hired hand, who I have cultivated a friendship with, invited me to meal and while I was warming up by the fire while his wife was cooking up the grub he hollered at me that there was a deer running across the horse pasture. I jumped to the front entry way where I'd shed my gear and left my gun and threw my orange coat back on grabbed my fanny pack with the extra loads in it in one hand and my gun in the other and headed for the door to the back deck where he was already standing with a pair of binoculars.

Sure enough, a lone white-tail doe was trotting her way down the length of the pasture fence just on the inside with the woods on the other. The only read I can figure that she broke out into the open instead of going through the woods where there is cover was to avoid a couple tree stand positions that were a couple hundred yards back in those woods behind the pasture. Anyway long story short she apparently didn't think she was in any danger because here tail was down and she would trot about twenty yards at a time and then stop for a second or so to sniff the wind and do a little look around. I figured that if I tried to get any closer she would hi-tail it out of there real quick and I had two fences to cross close the distance. So I made the decision to attempt a shot right there from the deck. I dropped to one knee, put my stocking hat on the rail, and then rested my 20ga. NEF-USH on it like a shooting bench. Then I patiently tracked her in my scope as she continued moving along the fence line every step she took bringing her closer to the house and to me. Finally, when she had come to the point where she was as close as she was going to get and if she continued further along the fence line she would be moving further away I gave one long slow blow on my grunt call. This stopped her dead in her tracks and she froze broad-side and turned her head to look directly up at the house towards me with her ears straight up and silhouetted.

I'm sure my muzzle flash in the distance is one of the last things she ever saw. After I squeezed off my shot and the initial muzzle flash subsided in the scope she was still standing at attention, only her tail was now straight up in "Alert" mode. Then the slug hit her, and this time I hit right where I wanted too. I had aimed in the same spot as before figuring with the longer distance the slug would actually drop that far and that extra vertical 8" I'd experienced on the buck shot would put me right on target. The slug smashed into her front shoulder and she went down hard with her front legs crumpling under her as the forward section of her body was knocked downward and towards the fence-line. At this point I reloaded and brought her buck into my scope. She was down in the grass but her rear legs were still thrashing and her neck twisted here and there for a few seconds as she bled out and I watched her in my scope. By this time Ryan was exclaiming over and over, "Dude !!! I can't believe you made that shot !!! - Dude !!! . . . ." Once I was satisfied there was no chance she was getting back up we both walked across the field to her and when we reached her she twitched a little and foamy blood was still coming out of her mouth. I was about to put a second round into her head at point blank with the 20ga. but Ryan stopped me because he didn't want me to scare the horses who are in that pasture and had followed us out to where she lay out of curiosity. So I popped her a round behind her ear into her brain to make sure she didn't suffer anymore with my little pocket pistol I carry and then we cleaned her out and then drove the car right down to her in the pasture and breakfast was still hot by the time we were done.

After we ate Ryan dug through his stuff and found his binoculars that have a laser range finder built into them and measured how far of a shot I had taken. It turned out to be 231 yards via. laser range finder from edge of the back deck where I'd taken my shot to the fence post directly behind where she had gone down. We figure she was at most 2-3 yards from the edge of the fence so that makes it a 228 to 229 yard shot. I went out again this evening for the last couple hours of hunting time but came up empty on trying to fill my one remaining tag.

So with the close of this years season tonight that my tally for this year - one buck, one doe, no elk. Both deer taken with Reloader-17 hand loads out of my 20ga. NEF-USH in river bottom. The buck on public state land at 160-ish yards and the doe on private farm land in the same river bottom hunting district at 228 yards distance via. laser range finder with a witness.

Not a full season by any means but I'm happy !!! I'm going to tell the story of the shot I made on that doe every chance I get until it becomes annoying !!! [smilie=w: Hunting was much harder then usual this year. Our deer population is down - even the fish and game say so and issued less B (doe) tags this year. And there were a lot more hunters in the woods this season as well - I think there are a lot of guys out of work that were just going hunting locally instead of spending money to go into the back, back country. And they had a lot of time on their hands to do it so they were in the woods a lot more hours then usual.

I haven’t done a proper examination of the wound channel created by the slug impact yet. She is just gutted and hanging in the shop with the hide still on. It was a complete pass through though and both her front legs are broken with some rib bone damage as well. Don't know where exactly the slug hit on the front legs and where exactly it broke the bones and which bones it broke. When I get her cut up I'll get that information. Organ damage was lungs only.

Long story short 20ga. full bore solid slug loads with Reloader-17 powder out of a scoped NEF-USH are going to be my hunting combination for quite a while in almost any “shotgun only” hunting situation !!!

hubel458

12-01-2009, 04:22 AM

Great work turbo- Like I tell everyone you can
do great things with slugs, when you get velocity
up with our slower powder loads.

4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes
time.

We will have swaged lead slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done,
a hundred of them at least.
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4to2.jpg

Blammer

12-04-2009, 11:16 PM

peter nap

12-05-2009, 08:57 PM

Sufferin Succotash Turbo that was one dandy of a shot!

This is gonna sound kinda stupid but how much fear should I really have when lighting off 80gr of RE 17 and the above mentioned load in my NEF 20ga slug gun? It's a rifle frame with the 20ga ultra slug barrel on it.

I've never shot any thing using more than 80gr of powder other than my black powder gun.

What hulls are you using? and do you need to roll crimp it? I can't really roll crimp and would liek to star crimp, just wondering.

Blammer, I don't have the 20 but if you read my posts about the on again off again problems I have had with slow rifle powders in the 12, you'll get some idea of what it takes.

I think it's whipped now thanks to Tommygirl and Ed Hubel.
The Key words to shooting the tuff is containment, containment and containment.

You should roll crimp with a vengence.

turbo1889

12-05-2009, 10:34 PM

Okay, first off --- on that incredible shot I made on the second deer. I once heard an old time muzzle loader shooter state the following, "Those who claim to have made a successful shot on game beyond 150-ish with a front loader can be generally grouped into three categories - the liars, the lucky ones, and those who put more than 50 pounds of lead down range on a yearly basis." The same exact thing can be said about shotgun slug hunting.

I figure it was probably a 50/50 mix of the last two on that list of three. I can be a really good shot when I stay in practice, especially when I shoot gophers all summer with 22-lr. The last summer I did that was the summer of 2008. Didn't happen this year due to the ammo shortage. As anyone can plainly see by viewing the photos of the groups I shot at 30-yards when doing terminal performance tests on my new 12ga. slug molds I posted several months back I was sorely out of practice.

I did bone up on my skills and punched several hundred rounds of my 2400 gun powder loads down range out of that 20ga. gun at pop-can's out in the field around the 100-ish mark before hunting season. Would have preferred to blow some gophers away instead but was to late in the year for that - pop cans are the next best thing.

As far as luck goes, there was no wind at all - dead calm. Wind plays havoc with long range slug shooting (as well as long range 22-lr shooting). Secondly the slug was in flight to the target for about 1/3 to 1/2 a second, a noticeable delay between muzzle flash in the scope and impact, and a lot of things can happen in a half second - she stayed still for that time span. If she hadn't and had started running I could have hit her far back in the guts or hit nothing but open air space.

What I'm basically saying is I don't know if I could repeat that feat. Some might consider classifying me in the first category of three - can't say I blame you, to be honest I don't completely believe it myself !!!

------------------------------------

Blammer, unfortunately R-17 powder loads are pretty much roll crimp only. Peter nap already posted basically saying that, but I thought I should confirm. Two reasons for this, first roll crimping allows more space in-side the hull for powder which is desperately needed for R-17 loads and secondly that powder needs good tight start pressure to get the fire started.

My GF, who posts under the screen name of tommygirlMT, has been able to build a few 12ga. loads with Lyman 525gr. wad-slugs that did work with a fold crimp. She accomplished this by using absolutely no cushioning material of any kind and using a plastic gas seal over the powder directly followed by the slug inside the shot cup portion of a WAA12 wad with the bottom cushion and gas seal section cut off. In addition she was using more powder then Hubel's maximum suggested charge of 115gr. for 12ga. 3" shells.

I am not personally comfortable with loads so constructed. Using absolutely no cushion section and putting the slug directly on top of a plastic gas seal directly on top of the powder load makes me just a little bit nervous - even a stack of nothing but hard nitro cards has a little cushioning effect.

If your limited to fold crimp only go with 2400 or other 410-bore burn rate powders in the 20ga. that works fine with just a regular fold crimp.

Blammer

12-06-2009, 12:49 PM

sounds like skill and a bit of luck for that shot on the deer! I still say GREAT shot!

thanks, I can roll crimp I'm just not very good at getting it nice and consistent. If I pick up some RL 17 I'll definitely do the roll crimp then.

Where can I find the 2400 load data for the 20ga?

hubel458

12-08-2009, 05:40 AM

peter nap

12-08-2009, 11:55 AM

Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a
cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim
puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed

I feel truly honored to be mentioned in one of Ed Hubels posts.

The problem I've had is that my lathe isn't exactly a precision machine. I made it and can't thread on it. The rims are small and delicate and I have to make them as slip on units. Then JB Weld or solder them.

I was getting ready to make some and I saw a 12 head that I had been using to cut spacers. I should have been a plumber because I'm always seeing if something will fit on something else.

The brass head off of the shotgun shell was darned close.

The BPI Multi Hull brass heads come off pretty easy with a little heat.

http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/fh5.jpg

http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/fh1.jpg

http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/fh4.jpg

Rather than trying to turn the BMG case on my lathe, I made a mandrel for it and shucked it in my cordless drill. Then using the slack belt grinder, just turned enough so it wasn't quite a slip on fit.

Then I threaded the flash hole for 3/8" per Ed's suggestion in this thread. I threaded a brass rod the same and screwed it in, cut it off and filed it flush.

I'll have to post pictures later about the bushing process. I'll try to make one later this week and take picture as I go.

The bushing has to be reamed fotr two levels. The BPI case has a longer protrusion where the body of the primer goes. There is a second wider depression above that for the primer rim.

Then the flash hole needs to be drilled. I drilled it 0.80 but Ed told me it needed to be bigger for the 209 primers.

Then the head needs to be glued on. I used JB Kwik because it loses it's bond at a lower temperature. If I need to replace the rim, just a quick pass with the torch will let me pull the brass head off.

I pressed the BMG case into the head with an arbor press and now it's ready for fire forming.

http://photos.oldva.org/albums/userpics/fh3.jpg

tommygirlMT

12-13-2009, 01:44 AM

Okay, this is a really crazy question --- but it's an idea rattling around in the back of my mind, and I figured it might fit in this thread.

Does anyone know if there is any belted ammo links that will accept 12ga.?

Yah, I know brings some interesting images to mind.

peter nap

12-13-2009, 08:55 AM

hubel458

12-15-2009, 10:45 PM

peternap found something I think that is easier for some to do.
I made two cases like his, and turned case base with case
spinner and pressed basecups on with jb kwik as glue.
Works great. Have pics soon.
Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
glued on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.It is a harder cast mix and at
440gr comes to the recesses in the sabot perfect.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpifl.jpg

hubel458

12-21-2009, 12:37 AM

Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH with a cast slug
in the feed trough.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb585.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb16.jpg

hubel458

12-27-2009, 01:41 AM

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength.I have a guy who can make me 585
cast linotype slugs for my 585 guns. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb700.jpg

phaessler

12-27-2009, 11:12 AM

But does it shoot ??

hubel458

01-05-2010, 01:49 AM

They all shoot fine. All cases work ok.

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb600.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12bases.jpg

hubel458

01-07-2010, 02:39 AM

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed

hubel458

01-13-2010, 03:09 AM

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bret.jpg

hubel458

01-20-2010, 02:01 AM

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me...

On the casting front I'm am using 24ga hard cast
slugs in my 585HE belted case testing.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8inef.jpg

hubel458

01-23-2010, 01:22 AM

A switch barrel auto we are tested 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585khan.jpg

hubel458

01-31-2010, 12:53 AM

Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires of RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Whoopee.
In the 10ga case is Lyman cast slug in a thickwall 10ga cup.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhb.jpg

hubel458

02-06-2010, 04:13 AM

Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zrevolver.bmp

SuperBlazingSabots

02-06-2010, 11:46 AM

Hello Ed
12ga revolver. Nice looking gun. But would like to know the cost of such a revolver and who makes them?
Thanks
Ajay
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

hubel458

02-11-2010, 11:50 PM

He said made in Russia. Not exported to US as far as I know.
For import it is lumped with some banned shotguns.
No idea of the price. Sure would like to have one.
The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhbg

hubel458

02-22-2010, 12:12 AM

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/maw1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/maw2.jpg

hubel458

02-28-2010, 02:32 AM

The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

http://www.hyattgunstore.com/images/P/main-1933.jpg

hubel458

03-09-2010, 03:06 AM

I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb600.jpg

hubel458

03-13-2010, 12:02 AM

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ben1.jpg

hubel458

03-18-2010, 12:02 AM

I got some 440gr hard cast bullets of .504" size to use in
BPI sabots. Bullets have lube grooves and if sized to
.500" the guy uses them in a 500S&W NEF also.

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10ga6.jpg

hubel458

03-24-2010, 12:20 AM

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.Makes a great 10ga FH, and I
got a whole buch of nice cast, hollowbase,
10ga slugs...ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhbef.jpg

hubel458

03-29-2010, 12:26 AM

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
I even have cast slugs for 700.
Cases are expensive, ones in picture are
20 bucks each...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/matt700.jpg

Al in Mi

03-29-2010, 04:16 AM

Ed, have any pics of those 10ga slugs?

what diameter did they end up being?

hubel458

04-03-2010, 12:52 AM

I'll have pictures in few wweks. They measure .765".

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.
I use it to test smoothbore sligs like USS-S and
some cast varieties.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mobelt.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585shbr.jpg

eye shot

04-03-2010, 01:33 PM

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s212/roundwp/4-1-10OakHaborclub002.jpg Ed I had a surprise the other day while sighting in a new Redfield scope on my 12ga. USH. The three shot group in the lower right target at 50yds. the load was,

3" Fiocchi primeed hulls

420gr. .511 dia. hard cast bullet

BLS 12 sabot with cushion cut off

100gr. Re17

1/8th nitro card

X12X gas seal

The recovered sabots looked as if you could use them again. I've tried all different combose and powders, but it looks like the Re17 may be the way to go.

hubel458

04-12-2010, 01:29 AM

Great work, see how it does with more RE17
As in 3" case I go clear up to 120gr in that
light of a slug.

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase cast slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

hubel458

04-22-2010, 12:30 AM

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

hubel458

04-25-2010, 12:07 AM

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED

hubel458

05-01-2010, 12:19 AM

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top..
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi..
Getting lead hollow base 1600 gr or so
to shoot soon. Ed

turbo1889

05-02-2010, 11:40 AM

How to get a very tight nice roll crimp with R-17 loads:

Had a question about this sent to me via. e-mail yesterday and I built an illustration to demonstrate and then my GF was nice enough to turn it into an animated .gif file for even better illustration. Thought I would post it here as well for everyone’s benefit.

Basically, you use a small bolt size fender washer or two and a ball bearing to transfer the downward force you apply to the roll crimp head directly to the slug nose to compress the wad column stack while the roll crimp is being made.

It will take a little bit of experimentation to figure out the exact size of washer and ball to use with your particular roll crimp head and load configuration but it works like a charm.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2010-05-02_083243_Wad_Compression_Roll_Crimp_Technique.gif

hubel458

05-02-2010, 11:54 PM

That is neat deal. I was thinking of using a center button on
the crimper to bear on the slug while crimping.Ed

hubel458

05-05-2010, 11:53 PM

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.

Double 760gr ball load of 1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at 2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed

hubel458

05-13-2010, 01:37 AM

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead Dixie slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed

hubel458

05-22-2010, 12:02 AM

Here is pic of the RMC brass 20ga 3.5" with
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. EDd

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20dies.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw1pc.jpg

hubel458

05-24-2010, 11:37 PM

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigsm.jpg

hubel458

05-31-2010, 11:15 PM

Good guns for hardened .585" lead slugs.
Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw2pc.jpg

hubel458

06-03-2010, 11:57 PM

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. 4 rear bolt lugs.Singleshot.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt1.jpg

hubel458

06-09-2010, 12:06 AM

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt2.jpg

hubel458

06-16-2010, 12:54 AM

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, no he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi504.jpg

hubel458

06-23-2010, 12:11 PM

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2inch12.jpg

hubel458

07-02-2010, 01:20 AM

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck.
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for
mass production by me, cases too hard to make.
An experiment with necked cases.I have hard cast
585 bullets that will work good in it.
Picture of the case later.Ed

hubel458

07-11-2010, 12:55 AM

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5" plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20dies.jpg

hubel458

07-14-2010, 12:32 AM

Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight
base expansion. About .001" above base.
Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO

hubel458

07-24-2010, 11:58 PM

20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Very slight
case expansion above base.
Another load style- 12 number 1 buckshot,
about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga
card in the brass case over the shot.
Few more guys coming, having fun
shooting the 4bore this summer. Ed

hubel458

08-12-2010, 11:12 PM

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.
The new blue BPI 12ga sabots are out now.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef.jpg

hubel458

08-21-2010, 04:59 PM

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug, with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.

This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound
further down range......Ed

hubel458

08-26-2010, 12:15 AM

About slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power
as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load.
Don't leave air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals
like in plastic cases..Ed

turbo1889

08-26-2010, 06:05 AM

As far as the detrimental effects on accuracy that result when a slug passes through the trans-sonic range during its flight path to the target. I have personally chosen to follow in the footsteps of the muzzle-loading smoke pole guys who shoot minie-ball target competition since they ran into the same problem.

Basically, from my study of the subject the basic consensus that was reached by those boys was that rounded or curved blunt nose shapes were the worst possible for accuracy when the minie-ball exited the barrel at super-sonic velocity and was traveling at sub-sonic velocity by the time it hit the target. They found that wide flat points did a little better and that ultimately a truncated cone nose shape with the flat meplat at about 50% or slightly more and a nose angle between 60 and 30 degrees or so worked best for their purposes. Obviously, from all the work that the black powder cartridge buffalo gun boys have done they already knew that a “Postel” type shape is almost ideal which is basically a gentle angle TC nose capped with a half sphere instead of a flat meplat on top of a long body. This was impractical for muzzle loading since at least somewhat of a flat meplat is necessary for ram-rodding the minie-ball down the bore.

Long story short a slug with a stubby round nose (most slugs) is bad, bad for accuracy when the slug leaves the muzzle at super-sonic velocity and is traveling at sub-sonic velocity by the time it hits the target. Since a BPCR “Postel” boolit shaped slug would be incredibly heavy due to its high length to diameter ratio, I personally believe that a TC nose shape with a modest meplat size is the best choice for accuracy for shotgun slugs. This is the same conclusion that the muzzle loader shooter boys that compete for accuracy over long range with minie-balls came too as well and since full bore shotgun slugs and muzzle loading minie-balls operate under nearly identical ballistic conditions it makes sense that the ideal boolit shape as a correctly balanced set of compromises would be similar for both applications.

Anyway that’s what I think on the subject and why I think it. Take it for what it is worth ($0.02).

hubel458

08-28-2010, 11:28 AM

In same vein if want 125 yd accuracy, which in shotgun only areas, is real
great covering most shots, you start the slugs faster so they are supersonic out past
125 yds. Which means that getting slugs faster without barrel harmonics
spraying them all over, you got to have heavier barrels than the
older paper thin birdshot barrels.Ed

hubel458

09-03-2010, 11:24 PM

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga.
The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to
fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pl4ga.jpg

hubel458

09-12-2010, 12:37 AM

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have 585 Hubel Super Magnum, HSM. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L.In 16ga long brass case in the Stevens 94
I got Gregs 660" 630 gr slug to 1400. I wish Stevens had a bull barrel.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hsm.jpg

hubel458

09-17-2010, 12:57 AM

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic In first picture 2 of the 585HSM
in back row are loaded with cast slugs.... ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hsmcomp.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmen.jpg

hubel458

10-05-2010, 10:33 AM

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/810cast.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmsect.jpg

hubel458

10-15-2010, 11:03 AM

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.You can also cast .69-.70
lead slugs for wadcup use. Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585castbul.jpg

hubel458

10-25-2010, 11:26 AM

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/3520fbw.jpg

hubel458

11-04-2010, 03:56 AM

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, big barrel breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

hubel458

11-06-2010, 11:47 PM

More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions. Nice
to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to
600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s along with
the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,
as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can
get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED

hubel458

11-12-2010, 03:45 AM

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/810cast.jpg

hubel458

11-29-2010, 01:11 AM

I talked about the Lyman slugs earlier,
Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. .660 dia, and one can
get a 3 shot group of 3" at 50 yds They can go real fast in
3.5 RMC or plastic case.Fullbore with wadcups.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

hubel458

12-16-2010, 03:33 AM

The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbvar.jpg

poco loco

12-18-2010, 03:19 PM

Ed your work amazes me, and I've truly enjoyed reading your stuff over the last few years.

I just wanted to say thanks for sharing your information so freely and willingly....

one day I hope to try some of the stuff you have and now there's a path to follow....

Thanks again...

hubel458

12-26-2010, 09:40 PM

Some wonder if caring for about foster slug accuracy at 200 feet
or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it
at 20% of the cost you've made a big gain. And most deer here are
killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups,
with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front
of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than
foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the
long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the
wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the
forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the
accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long.
The longer the nose heavy slug is, the truer it flies.
And most of these combinations work in brass cases with
thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight. Ed

hubel458

01-12-2011, 03:31 AM

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
slugs to test later..

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

hubel458

01-16-2011, 01:54 AM

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with heavy slugs
or cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Some guys trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

hubel458

01-20-2011, 03:09 AM

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED

hubel458

02-09-2011, 03:58 AM

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed

hubel458

02-09-2011, 07:32 AM

More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.
It is a BPGS type seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from a 16ga wad cup.
Like bottom of trap commander wad.Ed

44magLeo

02-09-2011, 09:47 PM

I've read most of this thread and I'm impressed at what your doing. One thing is in NY where a shotgun is used it has to have a nonmetalic case with metal on the head. So your brass cases and cases made from rifle cases are not legal for hunting.
Your experementing with plastic cases is more applicable to NY hunting.

hubel458

02-11-2011, 04:52 AM

That is not all bad as with our slower powder loads in plastic 10
and 12 ga cases can get some very high energy levels.
Especially 3.5" cases. Even 3.5" 20ga. Ed

white eagle

02-11-2011, 10:34 AM

you are fantastic
your grand daughter is a riot :-P

hubel458

02-26-2011, 01:45 AM

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbc20.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/phl585.jpg

hubel458

03-05-2011, 04:53 AM

Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gasab.jpg

hubel458

03-11-2011, 03:21 AM

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4done.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zacslug.jpg

hubel458

03-21-2011, 06:53 AM

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.
The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The
long brass has shotgun primers.
I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8losh.jpg

hubel458

03-28-2011, 10:43 PM

The long brass 8ga cases have same thick
sides as plastic cases. And there are long
plastic/paper cases out there, but they
are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber
fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing
easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with
locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by
screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in
smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr.
10ga is 900 gr.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/810base.jpg

hubel458

04-04-2011, 03:51 AM

New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed
http://auction-e.com/image/19/982/0804.jpg

hubel458

04-13-2011, 01:22 AM

Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbco20.jpg

hubel458

04-27-2011, 07:20 PM

Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down a few days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier, doing in
an Enfield bolt gun. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore cast slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on base.

Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
in my 700H 3.25.
I got some of the work done on 8ga, in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured
earlier in one piece stock.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/en16fh.jpg

hubel458

05-10-2011, 07:39 PM

Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
cases for where length is limited..

Using 770 gr sabot slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
These are long sabot slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick more.They won't
blow up, just stick. And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed

hubel458

05-26-2011, 02:31 AM

Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places.And you could cast shaped cores to
swage in with flux. ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/jaction.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/jbullet.jpg

hubel458

05-29-2011, 03:28 AM

Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed

hubel458

06-09-2011, 03:08 PM

You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great
craftsmanship.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/inchgun.jpg

hubel458

06-25-2011, 05:17 AM

Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture.

Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafb.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4trham.jpg

hubel458

06-28-2011, 04:13 AM

Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafbb.jpg

hubel458

07-08-2011, 01:42 AM

Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/emptyact.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchside.jpg

hubel458

07-10-2011, 02:05 AM

A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge
is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigbore.jpg

hubel458

07-15-2011, 04:06 AM

Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchfront.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchback.jpg

hubel458

07-18-2011, 01:55 AM

Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/elvas/US_S_Slug/p1010011dj.jpg

hubel458

07-24-2011, 02:45 AM

That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/buljkt.jpg

hubel458

07-29-2011, 01:49 AM

More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/horn.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgflat.jpg

hubel458

08-03-2011, 03:14 AM

Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..

Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/big06.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/short730.jpg

hubel458

08-13-2011, 01:08 AM

Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.

1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/all585.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87rhm.jpg

hubel458

08-21-2011, 03:07 AM

Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels- BBK 1.32" at breech- CBC 1.18" breech
1.070 muzzles.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bbkt.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbc585.jpg

hubel458

08-26-2011, 12:06 PM

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Have a switch barrel 28ga/585.
Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed

hubel458

09-05-2011, 02:24 AM

I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.

28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.

The Brenneke slug has a long locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED

http://www.rossiusa.com/images/imagesMain/SCJ28B_011.jpg
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/images/SL282.jpg

hubel458

09-16-2011, 01:50 AM

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585khd.jpg

hubel458

09-22-2011, 04:34 AM

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/247362000/247362354/pix202091262.jpg

hubel458

09-28-2011, 04:23 AM

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.

Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.

If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi-2011/medium/SS60350.jpg

http://www.federalpremium.com/images/ballistics/Bullets_Img/TruBallComponents2.jpg

http://www.ddupleks.lv/data/Image/Monolit_32_picture.jpg

hubel458

10-07-2011, 02:47 AM

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/keys1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/keys2.jpg

hubel458

10-17-2011, 02:03 AM

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg

hubel458

10-29-2011, 05:40 AM

Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.

Those sabot bases, might work with cast slugs if slugs had
the lock on extension/knob cast with slug. I'll check on that.Ed
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/elvas/US_S_Slug/p1010011dj.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2481/p1010009zh.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3106/pa260004.jpg

hubel458

11-04-2011, 03:02 AM

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1844.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1845.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1846.jpg

firefly1957

11-04-2011, 10:34 AM

That 12 Ga load is the first time I noticed a reference to "ground cordite" I thought they had to use the long grains for legal purposes?

hubel458

11-04-2011, 09:22 PM

When they first made Cordite it was extruded extruded long grains,
and but wasn't the easiest to put in cases that way.
So later they cut them into short kernels to be easier to
get into the cases.Ed

firefly1957

11-05-2011, 10:26 AM

It may have been just the manufacture and not the use of powder that was effected. If I remember right the British used the long grains to avoid a French Patent on smokeless powder?? I might have that wrong and do not remember were I heard/read it?

hubel458

11-06-2011, 01:34 AM

That may be true also, I think I heard that also.
But all tubular powder comes out of the die
like sausage out of a meat grinder,
and then is cut/ground to long or short lengths.
They probably had to buy the patents as Those
early cases indicate in the ad. And Ive seem smaller
British cases from ww1 time with short tubular.
But I have long
tubes of cordite out of 55 cal Boys antitank cases
still loaded that way clear into WW2.Ed

hubel458

11-08-2011, 02:16 AM

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bore_paradox_cartridges/1130013.jpg

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bore_paradox_cartridges/1144115.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr4.jpg

firefly1957

11-08-2011, 11:05 AM

hubel458 which of Greener's books do you refer to in post # 450 Was the title "in The Early Days" ? I thought it was in "the Gun And It's Development " but saw a color picture and knew it was not?

hubel458

11-09-2011, 03:23 AM

It is the Gun And Its Developement that I have
and the last 8bore gun picture is from that.

The top three pictures with a color picture showing,
from behind that I posted from rattler, is from a
different book. The pic of the Saga slugs is another
different source.

firefly1957

11-09-2011, 06:14 AM

Thank you I still can not find it in my version which is the NRA reprint. Quite interesting book isn't it.

Smoke73

11-11-2011, 02:29 AM

Ed would you have any idea what pressure a 2 3/4- 12g loaded with a 600 grn slug and 65 grns of 4227 might generate? Thanx for the great work you have put into this.

Smoke73

11-12-2011, 01:01 PM

Touched off a tester with 65 grains of imr4227, .250" hard card, .250" fiber wad lubedwith wonderlube topped by a .735 roundball in a cheddite hull/primer combo. Casehead expansion .007" so quite acceptable but seemed to be a lot of unburnt powder not unlike a blackpowder load. Is this normal in your research Ed? If not do you think a hotter primer would help? I'd like to work it up to 1800 fps but more powder seems pointless at this point but i could be wrong.

hubel458

11-14-2011, 12:43 AM

More powder is needed and IMR 4759 burns little cleaner,
we use over 90gr of 4227 and 4759 in 3" plastic cases with 600gr Dixie slugs.
So you really have just a starting load.Most chambers can take
.010" expansion without sticking in the 3" REM cases I tested.
I think Rem may be a little heavier than others. Go up 3gr at a time.
We also use BPGS seal and a flexseal cushion which moderates
peak pressure better than hard cards. Add a fiber wad
over these two for a round ball. We even have used 90gr 4759
for a 730 gr Dixie.And lab tested ok.Ed

Smoke73

11-16-2011, 12:11 AM

Tried a load of 60grns 4227 and a starter of 7grns Longshot. Tried a plastic wad setup this time and things were worse not better. First shot ok, second left lots of residue and the third just went pop and hit the dirt. What am I missing. Went through old posts and noticed comments that for reloader 17 to work powder level must be kept up and lots of compression is needed. Does this hold true for the imr 4227? Any help would be appreciated.

hubel458

11-16-2011, 02:55 PM

Yes the loads with all three , 4759,4227, Re17 have had to be
80 gr to start reliably for me. That is in my REM cases, that do
not have a recess around the protrusion that the primer
cup goes up into. I don't know if your Cheddites have that recess.
If they do like the red Federal 12ga cases I have here,
then the small amount of starter powder will be in that recess
and will be of no use in primary ignition, as the fire from the
primer cup flashhole goes straight out to front of the case.

You must have good compression and roll crimp. And more
powder, guys have used 90gr 4759.4227 in regular barreled
modern guns just fine.AS far as getting good compression
with roundballs. as I did a few at first it isn't the best design
to roll crimp and get good compression.

Guys shooting Mossys, Rems,etc are the ones
who told me about 4759. 4227. You don't use them in old
thin barrel guns, damascus guns. The 90gr loads have been lab tested just fine, by them and by me....Ed

happyfast79

11-16-2011, 11:37 PM

Any advice on where to find 10 guage slugs or molds for them? i have a browning bps and some .760 round balls that ive tried and am going to try working up with 2 qnd 3 ball loads. any advice?

hubel458

11-17-2011, 02:32 AM

You could check with NEI. Mtn Molds, Grafs, Dixie Gunworks.Lyman.
I know Lee does 12ga ones for 12ga wadcups., check with them.
For 10ga slugs guy in AZ- Bob- 480-861-3692 ..Ed

Smoke73

11-17-2011, 03:55 AM

Found some 4759 and I'm much happier. Worked up to 80 grns with good compression and now she's a new ballgame. I'm stopping there as my barrels are not overly heavy and at only 7.25 lbs she's a real handful for me. As one buddy put it "that is just plain violent". That being said I'm done with pistol/shotgun powder for slugs. I'm getting less casehead expansion and pushing the gun further ballistically than most would believe. Thanx Ed. Your research has definate real world applications.

hubel458

11-17-2011, 03:20 PM

That is what is the best thing about using 4227, 4759, RE17, and
7383 surplus, is safety and less case expansion, but with higher speeds
that are possible. These start slower and get to peak pressure slower
which is a great safety factor------Example.

If a guy has a 1 oz, 437 gr slug speedy load figured out with one of
those four and he goes to 600 gr with same amount of one of these
he won't blow up the gun where with the real fast shotgun powders
he might damage the gun or blow out the case.

If guys have got modern barrels of .90" od muzzle they can do 90gr
of 4759. Like Savage 210, Mossberg 695, Mossy,Rem, etc pumps,
autos, because these actions take magnum goose/turkey peak pressures
and that is what our slow powder loads do.ED

hubel458

11-19-2011, 10:20 PM

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr2.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/start2.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/620she.jpg

tommygirlMT

11-20-2011, 04:37 AM

Yoo! --- Hubel ! --- you do any work with the modernized BP substitute powders that have just come out on market that are so clean burning that they are nearly smokeless --- WP's BlackHorn 209 & Alliants Black-MZ --- specifically come to mind?

Just makes me think --- the old black powder dram loads were a lot of powder doing a long slow push at low pressure --- and those powders are designed to do the same thing as the original BP only without the mess and corrosion --- I mean a dram is 1/16 of an ounce so those old loads that were 3 dram or more loads were a lot of grains of powder --- so one of the new technology clean burning modern BP substitute that can be loaded the same way sounds like it might work really good for slug loading

hubel458

11-24-2011, 05:05 AM

The only substitute I had to use pyrodex didn't seem clean to me
so I never bothered with any others.. ..Later as I get time
I'll check the ones you mentioned.ED

Smoke73

11-24-2011, 11:16 AM

I tried Blackhorn 209 disappointing at best. Triple seven was ok but need to watch crux buildup and has been known to pressure spike.

hubel458

11-28-2011, 11:53 PM

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/explora.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr3.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/make4.jpg

hubel458

12-03-2011, 09:40 PM

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/parcases.jpg

hubel458

12-14-2011, 05:09 AM

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg

hubel458

12-21-2011, 03:28 AM

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rucase.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ruslug.jpg

hubel458

12-28-2011, 02:58 PM

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rip4.jpg

Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bodycrimp.jpg

Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed

Al in Mi

12-28-2011, 06:03 PM

Ed, where did you get that Fosbery type slug?

hubel458

12-28-2011, 10:56 PM

That isn't mine I just copied the picture.
Someone may sell a mold like that. It is a neat
crimping idea for paper case, I don't know if that
can be done with plastic. Sure gives more room
for slow powders.Ed

peter nap

12-30-2011, 03:41 PM

Ed, what slug is that in pictures 2-4?

hubel458

12-31-2011, 06:53 PM

If your asking about the brass slug in brass case it is a
turned slug that Rob on AR makes.Ed

peter nap

01-03-2012, 11:52 AM

Thanks ED!
Actually I was interested in the lead slug above it. Both have a similar profile.

eye shot

01-03-2012, 04:35 PM

hubel458
I have two 12ga. slug guns with Hastings barrels that are .840 at the muzzel. Can I load 90grs. of 4227, 4759, or RL17 with these barrels?
Thanks

hubel458

01-05-2012, 11:38 AM

That muzzle is too thin I feel.I like .900 minimum.

Those lead slugs are 1040 grains that RIP in AR forum cast.
You can get molds for heavy slugs.

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pushin.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslongnose.jpg

hubel458

01-10-2012, 09:49 PM

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the posibilities of smoothbores,
rather than not trying to perfect them.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rcslug.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rctarget.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/frsabot.jpg

hubel458

01-18-2012, 02:14 AM

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/paraklese.jpg

Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hexolit.jpg

Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gualandi.jpg

hubel458

01-20-2012, 01:11 AM

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/alcan.jpg

Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls58.jpg

Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/55sabot.jpg

white eagle

01-25-2012, 10:26 PM

deep hollow roll crimper
where could a guy pick one of those up ??

hubel458

01-25-2012, 10:56 PM

europeancartridgeunlimiteddotcom made the one in picture,
His handle is lefteris on the Accuratereloading,
big bore forum.

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/buckha20.jpg

Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20sabsl.jpg

Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls50.jpg

Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12spws.jpg

hubel458

02-03-2012, 09:17 PM

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4uss.jpg

2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/eucart.jpg

3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tung.jpg

4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tungsab.jpg

Al in Mi

02-04-2012, 04:52 AM

Ed, what's the ID diameter of those 20ga SPW wads?

hubel458

02-13-2012, 01:38 AM

There about .440" -- 458 slug wedges in tight.

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/36-12brass.jpg

Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/paperbrass.jpg

Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/papercrimp.jpg

Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls58.jpg

hubel458

02-22-2012, 04:20 AM

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usshort.jpg

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/6uss.jpg

Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rodda4.jpg

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/15minie.jpg

hubel458

02-24-2012, 11:00 PM

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dixie.jpg

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58wads.jpg

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/martinislug.jpg

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

longbow

02-24-2012, 11:50 PM

As always Ed, an informative and interesting read!

Thanks for posting.

Longbow

hubel458

03-10-2012, 12:57 AM

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dixie.jpg

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585remslug.jpg

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sile20.jpg

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4bor600n.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ne450ex20.jpg

firefly1957

03-10-2012, 08:52 AM

Do a coyote fine all skinned! I would think it would splattered a yodel dog or about anything else you hit.

hubel458

03-10-2012, 02:55 PM

well the skin may be in pieces.
I would probably atomize the 6gal pail
of water like the 12ga FH did in video.Ed

hubel458

03-25-2012, 01:27 AM

The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dixie.jpg

Some stuff about sabots. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why, they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dif.jpg

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cva20.jpg

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/450greener.jpg