My homemade Golden powder!

[Sandro_ventania]

Hello charcoal burners!
Just as the topic of black powder was successful, bringing a lot of knowledge and allowing many to be successful in producing their homemade black powder. A discussion began there about golden powder... a substitute for black powder, easier to make at home, much cleaner and even allows you to use common gun grease.
The basic recipe is just 60% potassium nitrate and 40% ascorbic acid (easily found on Amazon).
An increase of 5% iron oxide makes it still not strong... We call it crimson powder, because due to the oxide, it turns that color!
I ask friends who are testing golden powder to enrich the topic with photos, impressions about it and data.
Doubts? Just ask!

[owejia]

Started following the bp stickie this winter, have read the whole thing. The thread about the Golden Powder caught my interest. Simple recipe with good results. Am still gathering my stuff for making bp. Will use sassafras, willow and probably tp for my charcoal. Don't need to harvest wood and cook charcoal for the Golden Powder. Will be following this thread daily. Something simple for an old guy to make. Grandson started bp muzzle loading hunting this year so will need to learn all we can, hopefully the Golden Powder thread will create a large following as well.

[Nobade]

I'm in on this thread as well. The OP pointed me to this video:
https://youtu.be/nfGSVG3bhBY?si=Xk46SSK929664QNS
that clarified the technique used to make these propellants. I already had plenty of potassium nitrate from black powder making, and was able to source fairly cheap pure vitamin C powder on the jungle site. My first two batches didn't do much but once I realized how agressively it needs to be cooked, the third batch is quite useful. It is rather light weight compared to black powder, so in a revolver or cartridges it isn't going to be very powerful but in a muzzle loader you can add more. Per weight, it is close to the power of normal black powder. It just takes up a lot more space. This morning I tried it in a flintlock for two shots. The first was fairly normal but a little slow. The second took several attempts to get it to fire, but it finally did. It has been 100% reliable in caplock guns. This is certainly an interesting propellant to play with, and being able to make small batches of in the kitchen with no special equipment is a real bonus. I don't know how hard it would be to get it to ignite while being prepared, but i'm sure that is possible if you let it get too hot and dry. Use common sense here and keep a fire extinguisher handy just in case.

[Sandro_ventania]

The secret is to pay attention to the color... potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid are white... when dissolved in water and heated, as soon as the water dries they begin to fuse, the temperature begins to rise and the color changes. change to yellow, the hotter it gets, the darker it gets... until it reaches the ignition point, when the color should certainly be dark caramel. So the secret is to remove it from the heat when the color is just yellow. They say it's hygroscopic, but I've had golden powder stored for 1 year and it's still good, make small batches for use, when you're running out, make more... and everything will be perfect!

[Sandro_ventania]

https://i.ibb.co/FDt76fC/IMG-20240103-175451076.jpg
golden powder (1 year storage) and Black powder.

[LAGS]

Thank you for starting this separate thread on this Golden Powder.
It isn't something I am going to be doing much with.
But having other options to play with is very nice.

[2TM101]

The optimal formula is this:

Potassium nitrate 64.3
Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) 32.1
Charcoal 1.8
Iron oxide (red) 1.8

Still charcoal in it, just not much. If you make it the way shown in the video you get the equivalent of riced BP where you are pushing a blob through a sieve. Chemically correct, but "fluffy"

You can also mix it dry using this same formula and puck and corn it just like BP. However as there is no Sulfur you will need a binder. A popular Binder is Dextrin - and you can make that yourself as well.

[Nobade]

Good info, thanks!

[HWooldridge]

Following.

[Swineherd]

Been watching all of your Golden powder activities with great interest.
I don't see a tremendous advantage in it, so far as the manufacture, BUT the ultra low fouling characteristics of golden powder are certainly interesting. Please keep sharing, all of you, and thanks.

[2TM101]

Been watching all of your Golden powder activities with great interest. I don't see a tremendous advantage in it, so far as the manufacture, BUT the ultra low fouling characteristics of golden powder are certainly interesting. Please keep sharing, all of you, and thanks.

If you already have the press and the ball mill to make regular black powder its a novelty. Many people do not live where they can run a ball mill, or have a garage they can set a hydraulic press up in. Or for that matter a place they can leave pucks drying for a week. How it can be made may be a bigger advantage than how it can be used.

For Golden Powder you need a pot and a stove. And if you want to make your own dextrin an oven, but the toaster oven I use for powder coating does that just fine

And since nobody has mentioned this yet, you may wonder why its not just called "Yellow Powder". The term already existed and its a fireworks composition you can't use in a gun.

[Sandro_ventania]

Nobade has proof that mixing the components alone does not give good results. Merging the two components is what makes it good. And to take advantage of the little dirt in this powder, I wouldn't add charcoal...(only if the intention is to imitate the appearance of BP). The biggest advantages of golden powder are the ease of manufacturing, cleaning and the ability to use petroleum-based greases and oils, common in weapons products.

[DoubleBuck]

Thanks, Sandro!
I'll be following the thread, as well.

[dtknowles]

Following.

[Richard66]

Ok I have a question . It seems you can do a dry mix for this powder so can it be milled in a ball mill tumbler and moistened with alcohol then pressed into pucks and finally ground This is how I do black powder

[MrWolf]

Very interesting and thanks for the info. I will be following this.

[Sandro_ventania]

Ok I have a question . It seems you can do a dry mix for this powder so can it be milled in a ball mill tumbler and moistened with alcohol then pressed into pucks and finally ground This is how I do black powder

You will only be complicating what is simple and you will still not achieve the same result. What is simpler than cooking the ingredients until they become a paste and once cold, they will be hard. Just grind and use!

[Richard66]

OK THX I was just wondering also what is the best formula for the mixture

[Swineherd]

If you already have the press and the ball mill to make regular black powder its a novelty. Many people do not live where they can run a ball mill, or have a garage they can set a hydraulic press up in. Or for that matter a place they can leave pucks drying for a week. How it can be made may be a bigger advantage than how it can be used.

For Golden Powder you need a pot and a stove. And if you want to make your own dextrin an oven, but the toaster oven I use for powder coating does that just fine

And since nobody has mentioned this yet, you may wonder why its not just called "Yellow Powder". The term already existed and its a fireworks composition you can't use in a gun.

Excellent point. When considering the manufacture I did take for granted a ball mill and press. I had really only considered availability of ingredients, which I think is actually better for BP.

[2TM101]

Excellent point. When considering the manufacture I did take for granted a ball mill and press. I had really only considered availability of ingredients, which I think is actually better for BP. Sandro is right dry mixing produces inferior results with this stuff. I did this at first because I thought it to be safer but the ignition point on GP is actually pretty high so that was not needed.

I was originally very hesitant to put something intended to be an explosive on an actual stove. this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfGSVG3bhBY is not in English and has no subtitles, but you can tell from watching it what the process is. Trick is to take it off heat when it actually is "Golden Powder" and not a darker color. He then breaks it up while it is hardening and then puts it in a coffee grinder, giving him a pile of 5F. I leave mine a blob and from that point on treat it like a puck of BP. I need to find me a teflon cupcake pan and remember not to make lead ingots with it so I can make actual GP pucks. Don't use a plain pan as it will stick.

The second formula he makes includes red iron oxide - better powder but only after you have a bit of experience making the 2 component version as this stuff is a dark red from the beginning and so is a lot harder to tell when it is ready. Not for beginners.

Make the 2 component stuff (3 parts KNO3, 2 parts Ascorbic) until you are very comfortable with how it feels when its correct. Then try the 4 part formula. It is slightly better but does not give you the visual clues as to when its ready.

[Nobade]

Good advice. For the record, I didn't mix the ingredients dry but did dissolve them in water then cook it to drive that off. My mistake was stopping too soon, before it turned colors. And the video gave me the idea to break it up while it's still hot instead of letting it cool in one big pile. That makes it a lot easier to grind up. I am going to try pressing it into a puck next time to see if I can get the density up. As you mentioned, dextrin works as a binder and so does rice gluetin, at least for black powder.

[Hellgate]

If you go to the video then click on CLOSED CAPTIONING at the bottom of the screen Youtube will translate it into English from the Portugese. The translation leaves much to be desired and not all words make any sense as this is a somewhat esoteric subject. But it helps provide more clarity as to what is going on.

[2TM101]

Good advice. For the record, I didn't mix the ingredients dry but did dissolve them in water then cook it to drive that off. My mistake was stopping too soon, before it turned colors. And the video gave me the idea to break it up while it's still hot instead of letting it cool in one big pile.

I did that too and now have a bunch of light grey stuff that doesn't work very well. Letting it get to the point where its a blob of bread dough took more nerve than I had at the time. However I don't find the one big pile to really be an issue, just spread it out on some nonstick surface and breaking it up should be no more difficult than with regular pucks.

[Lostinidaho]

I think that this is a start to a great thread.

[Swineherd]

I've explored the idea of running BP in a 45acp 1911. There's enough case capacity to load cartridges that will cycle the gun properly, but blackpowder fouling builds quickly and brings the gun to a halt in relatively short order (30 rounds or less). I'm very interested in this new-to-me golden powder in a 1911. A glock is a worthy candidate also.

[Nobade]

I've explored the idea of running BP in a 45acp 1911. There's enough case capacity to load cartridges that will cycle the gun properly, but blackpowder fouling builds quickly and brings the gun to a halt in relatively short order (30 rounds or less). I'm very interested in this new-to-me golden powder in a 1911. A glock is a worthy candidate also.

Maybe find better bullet lube? I had no problem running 50 rounds of BP 45 ACP through my 1911. It's a real hoot at IDPA matches. Unless you change the barrel on the Glock I doubt it would be all that fun. But yes, golden powder should be way easier to manage since there's essentially no fouling.

[toot]

I wish that the video was in ENGLISH. is there any one in ENGLISH?

[Sandro_ventania]

I wish that the video was in ENGLISH. is there any one in ENGLISH?

Do like me, use YouTube's own automatic translation. I watch videos from all countries using this feature. It's not 100% but it's enough to understand. I'm Brazilian, this video is in my language, Portuguese. If you have any questions, please ask, I will be happy to answer.

[Sandro_ventania]

I've explored the idea of running BP in a 45acp 1911. There's enough case capacity to load cartridges that will cycle the gun properly, but blackpowder fouling builds quickly and brings the gun to a halt in relatively short order (30 rounds or less). I'm very interested in this new-to-me golden powder in a 1911. A glock is a worthy candidate also.
The secret to using BP and GP in automatic weapons is to use the heaviest projectiles possible, the inertia of these heavy projectiles makes the action of pistols easier.

[Sandro_ventania]

https://i.ibb.co/SnqS93S/IMG-20240123-103854463-HDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/yyL2bQ2)

https://i.ibb.co/G3mBj8r/IMG-20240123-104451483-HDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/n8pZSYK)

https://i.ibb.co/HK32Lsc/IMG-20240123-104638199-HDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/RgdSGmX)

https://i.ibb.co/cCzzLnM/IMG-20240123-110901088-HDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/3MttzZG)

Temperature Celsius °C
The temperature is not a problem, I just measured it so you can see that when the water dries, the temperature rises and the color changes. just be guided by the color.

https://i.ibb.co/TtB97Pb/IMG-20240123-105120827-HDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/VTWfzMQ)

After reaching the color, taking it off the stove, continuing to stir is good, as it avoids forming a single, hard cake. This way it is already fragmented, you can even use it like that.

[Sandro_ventania]

https://i.ibb.co/ZdDddWn/IMG-20240123-112837649.jpg (https://ibb.co/mJWJJ6L)


5-grain burn test on white paper to observe residue. 3 proportions 60-40, 62.5-37.5 and 65-35. And the comparison with BP. Which do you think is the best?

[Swineherd]

I don't think the bullets I was using carried enough lube. Still shopping for the most reasonably priced .454 mold with a generous grease groove.

[Swineherd]

Great point about bullet weight as it relates to cycling the action in an auto loader, Sandro.
Also, excellent photo documentation of the cooking process. It looks like the 65/35 or 62.5/37.5 are giving the fastest and most uniform burn?

[Sandro_ventania]

I would say that at 60-40 there is a little fuel left...the black traces indicate fuel that has not completely burned. The 65-35 is the opposite... it seems like the oxidizer is left over. Perhaps a 63-37 would be a good point... but only practical tests in the field, preferably with a chronograph, can reveal that. The good thing about the ease of producing GP is that we can do small, multiple batches of tests. These lots only have 100 grains!
Just one thing I forgot and someone might have questions. The amount of water is 100% of the solids

[DoubleBuck]

65/35 looks the best to me, but I've never made any, or shot any. The Black looks a little rich to me. Maybe a slight increase on the Oxidizer would clean it up. Given the looks of the three GP's, I would be for trying one of 66/34, or even 67/33. At some point, you should definitely be able to see unburnt KNO3 in white balls. I may not see the picture as well as you can see the actual paper. If you can see the KNO3 on the 65/35, then my point is mute.
Great job and nice thread, Sandro!

[dverna]

I hope they make this a sticky. Even though I do not use BP guns, this kind of stuff in interesting and could be more important down the road. Nice to have options.

About the only thing I have that could be shot with BP is 12 ga. Maybe the .30/30's?

Hope to see some range reports.

[Sandro_ventania]

I hope they make this a sticky. Even though I do not use BP guns, this kind of stuff in interesting and could be more important down the road. Nice to have options.

About the only thing I have that could be shot with BP is 12 ga. Maybe the .30/30's?

Hope to see some range reports.

Make a little to use at 30-30, no need to worry about fouling. If you use lead bullets, you can use regular lubricant. You will feel so much joy wearing something you made yourself! And it's so easy to buy the products and do the GP that I don't see why not try it! Difficult times can come at any time!

[Sandro_ventania]

65/35 looks the best to me, but I've never made any, or shot any. The Black looks a little rich to me. Maybe a slight increase on the Oxidizer would clean it up. Given the looks of the three GP's, I would be for trying one of 66/34, or even 67/33. At some point, you should definitely be able to see unburnt KNO3 in white balls. I may not see the picture as well as you can see the actual paper. If you can see the KNO3 on the 65/35, then my point is mute.
Great job and nice thread, Sandro!

No... none of them have white balls of potassium nitrate. It is possible to test other proportions, but what looks best will not always be best on the gun barrel. As for BP...I use 76-15-9.

[Nobade]

2TM101 or others using dextrin, do you add it to the water when the powder is being cooked? Or afterward? I am going to try making a puck of it with my new press die this weekend. I also got my bag of rust in the mail yesterday so I'll try some crimson powder as well. Curious to see if it will cycle my 1911.

[passgas55]

I have never made any and from what I can read it seems the trick is to cook till you get that golden color. Question is if cooked to golden color then add your iron oxide cooking just a tad bit more till the iron oxide completely mixes in will that work? Seems to me the iron oxide does not react to those temps so all you doing is mixing it in completely.

[Nobade]

Once it's a golden color it's almost done and is a thick sticky mass. You're not going to mix anything into it. Have to add the iron oxide at the beginning before everything is dissolved in the water. Of course that won't dissolve but it will get intimately mixed.

[ofitg]

Hope to see some range reports.

I will second that motion. Hopefully somebody will provide some chronograph data.

[barrabruce]

Hey come on!
Your not using the same pan your wife cooks eggs on are ‘Yu
Induction or gas burner?
:groner:
I suppose.
does it matter?

Is the ratio by volume or weight?

Following

[Nobade]

By weight.
Pan is easy to clean up, what is left over dissolves in water with a little soaking. Standard electric stove here.

[Sandro_ventania]

Hey come on!
Your not using the same pan your wife cooks eggs on are ‘Yu
Induction or gas burner?
:groner:
I suppose.
does it matter?

Is the ratio by volume or weight?

Following

Using your wife's pan can be more dangerous than making nitroglycerin. But if you can reach an agreement, there is no problem using the kitchen pan, the two ingredients are not poisonous, any residue is not a problem. However, there is no residue left, as it is completely soluble in water... this water is also an excellent fertilizer for your wife's flowers. Waiting for Nobade's tests.

[owejia]

My GP ingredients are on the way!! Hope to be able to cook some by the end of next week.

[Lostinidaho]

Looking forward to a range report.

[Nobade]

I tried the latest batch of GP in my 1911 45 acp today. It would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not eject or pick up a new round. It was reasonably accurate, made great smoke, and didn't lead the barrel even though I was using some commercial dry lubed bullets. If I had a really light spring like we used to use in the bullseye wadcutter days, it might have worked but I have a pretty stout spring in it now. Once I make some crimson powder I'll try it again and see if it makes enough power.

[Swineherd]

I tried the latest batch of GP in my 1911 45 acp today. It would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not eject or pick up a new round. It was reasonably accurate, made great smoke, and didn't lead the barrel even though I was using some commercial dry lubed bullets. If I had a really light spring like we used to use in the bullseye wadcutter days, it might have worked but I have a pretty stout spring in it now. Once I make some crimson powder I'll try it again and see if it makes enough power.

Very cool!
Looking forward to the crimson results.

[Lostinidaho]

I tried the latest batch of GP in my 1911 45 acp today. It would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not eject or pick up a new round. It was reasonably accurate, made great smoke, and didn't lead the barrel even though I was using some commercial dry lubed bullets. If I had a really light spring like we used to use in the bullseye wadcutter days, it might have worked but I have a pretty stout spring in it now. Once I make some crimson powder I'll try it again and see if it makes enough power.

Glad to hear of your results.

[Sandro_ventania]

I tried the latest batch of GP in my 1911 45 acp today. It would cycle enough to cock the hammer but not eject or pick up a new round. It was reasonably accurate, made great smoke, and didn't lead the barrel even though I was using some commercial dry lubed bullets. If I had a really light spring like we used to use in the bullseye wadcutter days, it might have worked but I have a pretty stout spring in it now. Once I make some crimson powder I'll try it again and see if it makes enough power.

what size are you using? 2F, 3F, 4F? In a short weapon like this pistol, the ideal is 4F. Is it maximally compacted when loading the cartridge? The guy from TP's BP channel has a video in which he even uses a press to load .303 cartridges

[Nobade]

what size are you using? 2F, 3F, 4F? In a short weapon like this pistol, the ideal is 4F. Is it maximally compacted when loading the cartridge? The guy from TP's BP channel has a video in which he even uses a press to load .303 cartridges

It's a mix. Mostly fine powder. I am going to try making pucks with it like I do with black powder, to get the density up. I think the problem with cartridges is you just can't get enough of it in there. It weighs barely half of what black powder does, and performed about like a half charge of black. I still don't know how to apply the dextrin, I'm guessing to add it to the water when it's being cooked but that might just make a sticky mess. Going to try making some today so I'll know a little more eventually.

[barrabruce]

I tried some in 6 cases of 310 cadet.
Filled to top then seated bullets.
Weighted the charge of 12 grains of the fine powder I made.
Next I tried filling the case then tapping on bench then refilling.
Not a hard compression but 14-15 grains?
Apparently 16 grains of black =@1300 fps with a 120 grn bullet.
Thought I may get 8-1000fps.
Had 1 squib load and when I opened the action, the case and effluent flew out. At least the case and bullet formed a good seal.
The other 5 were pretty docile with a little white plume of smoke.
I gather 4-500fps.
May up the charge to see how much I can get in there.
All good.
I may have not baked it enough but looked a light yellow tinge to it.
I may have to recalibrate my freckle puckering safety valve and bake it to a more honeycomb colour.
But survived the first small experimental batch and have a better feel for it I think.

I’ll plead ignorance and beg for forgiveness if the better half discovers my new interest in the cook top.

[Nobade]

I tried some in 6 cases of 310 cadet.
Filled to top then seated bullets.
Weighted the charge of 12 grains of the fine powder I made.
Next I tried filling the case then tapping on bench then refilling.
Not a hard compression but 14-15 grains?
Apparently 16 grains of black =@1300 fps with a 120 grn bullet.
Thought I may get 8-1000fps.
Had 1 squib load and when I opened the action, the case and effluent flew out. At least the case and bullet formed a good seal.
The other 5 were pretty docile with a little white plume of smoke.
I gather 4-500fps.
May up the charge to see how much I can get in there.
All good.
I may have not baked it enough but looked a light yellow tinge to it.
I may have to recalibrate my freckle puckering safety valve and bake it to a more honeycomb colour.
But survived the first small experimental batch and have a better feel for it I think.

I’ll plead ignorance and beg for forgiveness if the better half discovers my new interest in the cook top.

Sounds like you are following the same path as I did. Once I finally got comfortable with aggressively cooking it, I got better results. This morning I made my first batch of crimson powder. I agree with the previous poster who said learn to make golden powder first. This stuff doesn't change color once it's done but once you know what to look for you can tell. I flashed some and it is every bit as fast as black powder and didn't burn the paper it was on, like good black. I'll shoot some today and see how it does.

Keep it away from kids! It looks just like chocolate sprinkles. I doubt it tastes very good though.

[Nobade]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I just loaded five rounds of 45 acp with 1.6cc of the new crimson powder, and every round cycled the action and was plenty accurate. These feel about like my regular black powder loads and are quite energetic. Fouling is slightly more than the golden powder, the cases had some black flakes in them but they still clean right up with water. One patch moistened with moose milk followed by a dry patch cleaned the barrel. No leading despite the dry lubed bullets. This is getting interesting!

As an aside, it is lightly raining, 50 deg, and about 100% humidity. The smoke is excellent! I lit off what was left of my first attempt at golden powder all in one pile, and it smoked up the whole neighborhood for quite a while. They're going to wonder what I am up to here.

[Lostinidaho]

Nobade, Thanks for the report. So your crimson powder was not "pucked" to up the density?

[Nobade]

Nobade, Thanks for the report. So your crimson powder was not "pucked" to up the density?

No, just crumbled up and run through the coffee grinder.

[2TM101]

No, just crumbled up and run through the coffee grinder.

So all you have is 5F. I did nime int eh same grinder I did black powder pucks in so I have the other sizes too, but maybe 40% of what I get is the same 5F. I'm headed to the range in a few minutes to do another test.

[LAGS]

Has anyone checked to make sure the golden powder with the iron nitrate in not Impact Sensitive.
I would hate to see you guys try to puck it up.
And it acts like primer powder.
I am probably totally wrong.
But safety comes first.

[Nobade]

Not iron nitrate but iron oxide III - red rust.
I did try beating some with a hammer and had no effect on it other than making it really small. Seems to be pretty inert until exposed to flame.

I saw some Shooter's World substitute black powder the other day, and it looks black. I suspect they are adding charcoal to it, don't know if that would help anything or not. They say they buy it from American Pioneer so it is essentially what we're making here.

[LAGS]

If that is Iron Oxide " Rust " I would say , Do Not ever try adding Aluminium powder to your mix to try and make it more flammable.
That could make it burn much hotter.
Rust mixed with Aluminium will burn thru steel.
It could turn it in to Thermite.

[dtknowles]

If that is Iron Oxide " Rust " I would say , Do Not ever try adding Aluminium powder to your mix to try and make it more flammable.
That could make it burn much hotter.
Rust mixed with Aluminium will burn thru steel.
It could turn it in to Thermite.

It would not be Thermite but it would be an explosive not a propellant. Flash Powder is Potassium Nitrate and Aluminum.

Tim

[Hellgate]

Way back when one of the first subs came out called Black Canyon powder I used to load it into .357 cases by filling the case 3/4 full then taking a dowel and firmly crunching it down to essentially make a plug of powder then I filled the case to the rim and seated the 158gr bullet on top. It was clean shooting and non fouling but corrosive to brass. It was a gray color the consistency of kitty litter and upon long exposure to humidity would gradually turn brown then black and weaken to where it was pretty useless. So, I'm wondering if the golden powder needs or is helped by a fair amount of compression as with Black Canyon?

Another powder that was contemporary with Blk Canyon was Black Mag III. It was a tan color of FFFg size and did not need compression to work like black powder but without the fouling. It was more stable. I liked it but it went off the market. I wonder if it was GP due to its tan color?

[Sandro_ventania]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I just loaded five rounds of 45 acp with 1.6cc of the new crimson powder, and every round cycled the action and was plenty accurate. These feel about like my regular black powder loads and are quite energetic. Fouling is slightly more than the golden powder, the cases had some black flakes in them but they still clean right up with water. One patch moistened with moose milk followed by a dry patch cleaned the barrel. No leading despite the dry lubed bullets. This is getting interesting!

As an aside, it is lightly raining, 50 deg, and about 100% humidity. The smoke is excellent! I lit off what was left of my first attempt at golden powder all in one pile, and it smoked up the whole neighborhood for quite a while. They're going to wonder what I am up to here.

I tested a new ratio today...70-30. And this time some nitrate residue appeared, (small white balls) and I didn't find it as vigorous, so I think 65-35 is the maximum. For a crimson powder perhaps a good ratio would be 60-35-5

[Sandro_ventania]

Perhaps the best way to press is hot. Pour it while still hot, looking like melted cheese, into the mold and apply pressure. (a plastic film on the pan should prevent it from sticking). leave under pressure until it cools to harden.

[LAGS]

Maybe if you press it when it might still be soft and a little sticky.
You might try putting a release agent on the die like paste wax to keep it from sticking to the die.
The paste wax shouldn't contaminate the powder when you grind it up.

[dverna]

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum. I am impressed.

[dondiego]

It would not be Thermite but it would be an explosive not a propellant. Flash Powder is Potassium Nitrate and Aluminum.

Tim

Flash powder is potassium perchlorate and aluminum. Not KNO3.

[dtknowles]

Flash powder is potassium perchlorate and aluminum. Not KNO3.

There is more than one kind of flash powder and I make flash powder with Potassium Nitrate, and it is definitely explosive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_powder

Tim

[dondiego]

There is more than one kind of flash powder and I make flash powder with Potassium Nitrate, and it is definitely explosive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_powder

Tim

Yea, I've tried it with KNO3 and it didn't work for me. NO flash. I have tried a lot of mixtures.

[dondiego]

There is more than one kind of flash powder and I make flash powder with Potassium Nitrate, and it is definitely explosive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_powder

Tim

Hey dt, thanks for that link though. It was a good read!

[dtknowles]

Yea, I've tried it with KNO3 and it didn't work for me. NO flash. I have tried a lot of mixtures.

Maybe the problem is your aluminum powder. This is what I used. Blinding flash and good report.

322743

I ball mill the KN03 and Sulfur like it was black powder then I mix in the aluminum carefully by hand in a bowl. Never ball mill the aluminum with any oxidizer.

Tim

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Just when I feel like I have a good grasp on BP something like this comes along and it's very interesting, but there's much that hasn't been covered yet.

Like, how easily does it ignite? Will a flintlock set it off?

What are the pressures like? Maybe no one knows but I know I can use a lot of BP safely, not sure about this.

Is there an equivalent to BP as far as power goes? Even though density is different, maybe there's a correlation by weight?

I really don't think compressing it in liquid form will get you anywhere. That liquid is water and water can't be compressed.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Another question I was thinking of. We know it's weaker if not cooked enough, but what happens when it's cooked too long?

What if the heat is higher or lower?

I've got my Vitamin C and Iron on order so I'll contribute to the experiments as soon as I can.

[Sandro_ventania]

Just when I feel like I have a good grasp on BP something like this comes along and it's very interesting, but there's much that hasn't been covered yet.

Like, how easily does it ignite? Will a flintlock set it off?

What are the pressures like? Maybe no one knows but I know I can use a lot of BP safely, not sure about this.

Is there an equivalent to BP as far as power goes? Even though density is different, maybe there's a correlation by weight?

I really don't think compressing it in liquid form will get you anywhere. That liquid is water and water can't be compressed.

What we know, percussion is 100%. Flint may have some flaws. It is as safe or more safe than BP. The potency is similar to BP by weight (some say it is a little more, others a little less, perhaps due to the proportions or quality of the components), by volume it is less dense, so it is necessary to increase the dose. I always like to weigh my loads, so I don't see a problem. When it is in the pasty phase, changing color, there is no more water, the two components are merging. Join the fun, it's easy and cheap to try and we can achieve great results. Has anyone tried it with citric acid?

[lead chucker]

Very interesting. Just what i need another thing to experiment with. I will wait until others have tested and figured out the ups and downs. Lots of questions with this like is 3f the same as BP, measuring it by weight or volume can it be compressed , shelf life? Is this something new or has it been around for a while. I'm still trying to improve my BP which seems pretty good so far.

[Swineherd]

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I just loaded five rounds of 45 acp with 1.6cc of the new crimson powder, and every round cycled the action and was plenty accurate. These feel about like my regular black powder loads and are quite energetic. Fouling is slightly more than the golden powder, the cases had some black flakes in them but they still clean right up with water. One patch moistened with moose milk followed by a dry patch cleaned the barrel. No leading despite the dry lubed bullets. This is getting interesting!

As an aside, it is lightly raining, 50 deg, and about 100% humidity. The smoke is excellent! I lit off what was left of my first attempt at golden powder all in one pile, and it smoked up the whole neighborhood for quite a while. They're going to wonder what I am up to here.

Nobade, congrats on the successful 45acp cartridges! What's your cleaning method like?

[Nobade]

Nobade, congrats on the successful 45acp cartridges! What's your cleaning method like?

Thanks. Cleaning the cases involved decapping them and shaking them in a tub with water in it and letting them air dry. Cleaning the gun was a wet patch with moose milk, a dry patch, and an oil patch. Wiped the breech face down with another moose milk patch. There's not much fouling there.

Later I shot some of the crimson powder in my 32 cal caplock. That didn't work so well. I would get a couple of normal shots then some very weak shots. I tried different compression, different patch lube, and anything else I could think of and nothing helped. Then I tried some of the new batch of black powder I have drying and it was all back to normal. When I got a weak shot I also had somewhat of a tracer effect, the powder was burning in the air. I haven't seen this happen in larger bore guns but in the little 32 it seems that the entire charge does not ignite every time. More experimentation is needed...

[barrabruce]

I wetted the leftovers from my first batch and re-fried them. It turned out more dark coffee colour.
It sparked off easily and real quick with a dark red flash and filled the garage with smoke.
[smilie=w:
So off I go and make a new batch.
Turned out darker than the first lot but when I tested it , it wouldn’t ignite. Must of had some moisture in it.
Another boil off and things worked much better.
Loaded some 30-30 cases with a 2.3 yellow Lee scoop. Filled up to the inside of the neck a little.
Pp’ed bullet seated. Some lubed some dry.
To be tested at some time in the future.
Pretty hot and tropical atm with a million %humidity.

[2TM101]

Another question I was thinking of. We know it's weaker if not cooked enough, but what happens when it's cooked too long? What if the heat is higher or lower?

Cooking GP too long makes it a dark brown color, but I don't think it works better than the golden stage. By the time it starts turning golden there is no water so with more cooking you run the risk of ignition and I don't think gain anything. Lower heat it doesn't change color, I got a lot of grey stuff that way. Higher heat may get it to the ignition point before it has all blended.

If you just use the coffee grinder shown in the video you will have nothing but 5F. I use the same grinder I use for BP and get the same sizes, with the advantage that nothing goes to dust, the smallest I get is 5F. 5F is fine (pun intended) but you may want larger sizes later.

Golden powder may be too fluffy to use cartridge guns alone but I found a solution. I've been doing "Duplex" loads in 38 special - with one (yes, 1) grain of 700X and then Gp on top of it. Slower to make but fun to shoot, sound like smokeless and look like black powder. I can even use up the bad lot I made (stopped before it went yellow) by using 2 grains of 700x instead of 1. I am still saving on my commercial powder and not wasting anything, even my mistakes.

[dondiego]

Maybe the problem is your aluminum powder. This is what I used. Blinding flash and good report.

322743

I ball mill the KN03 and Sulfur like it was black powder then I mix in the aluminum carefully by hand in a bowl. Never ball mill the aluminum with any oxidizer.

Tim

I suspect that your are correct in that I didn't use that high grade of aluminum in my mix. Good to know.

[Sandro_ventania]

Very interesting. Just what i need another thing to experiment with. I will wait until others have tested and figured out the ups and downs. Lots of questions with this like is 3f the same as BP, measuring it by weight or volume can it be compressed , shelf life? Is this something new or has it been around for a while. I'm still trying to improve my BP which seems pretty good so far.

They say it is hygroscopic. I have had GP stored for 1 year, it is a little darker, but it still works. I don't see the need for such a long period, just save the ingredients and make a batch to use within 1 or 2 months is great! Do you agree?

[Sandro_ventania]

Cooking GP too long makes it a dark brown color, but I don't think it works better than the golden stage. By the time it starts turning golden there is no water so with more cooking you run the risk of ignition and I don't think gain anything. Lower heat it doesn't change color, I got a lot of grey stuff that way. Higher heat may get it to the ignition point before it has all blended.

If you just use the coffee grinder shown in the video you will have nothing but 5F. I use the same grinder I use for BP and get the same sizes, with the advantage that nothing goes to dust, the smallest I get is 5F. 5F is fine (pun intended) but you may want larger sizes later.

Golden powder may be too fluffy to use cartridge guns alone but I found a solution. I've been doing "Duplex" loads in 38 special - with one (yes, 1) grain of 700X and then Gp on top of it. Slower to make but fun to shoot, sound like smokeless and look like black powder. I can even use up the bad lot I made (stopped before it went yellow) by using 2 grains of 700x instead of 1. I am still saving on my commercial powder and not wasting anything, even my mistakes.

Cook that undercooked batch again and it will reach just the right point!

[HWooldridge]

I applaud everyone who is working on a GP recipe but at this point, it appears the consistency from batch to batch and shot to shot is widely variable, with a formula based on appearance and no obvious tolerance range for cooking temperature or time; it seems to require an "artistic" approach. Commercial powder is built to a specific process recipe, which can be measured and recorded for repeatability. Would be nice to see results made from 5 or more separate batches which were repeatable with low SD numbers.

[dverna]

They say it is hygroscopic. I have had GP stored for 1 year, it is a little darker, but it still works. I don't see the need for such a long period, just save the ingredients and make a batch to use within 1 or 2 months is great! Do you agree?

What are your opinions on loaded rounds? Will they degrade over time?

Would a sealant on the bullet/neck and primer/pocket like used on some military ammunition be needed?

[Nobade]

That would be something to test. The fouling is extremely aggressive on brass but I don't know if the unburnt powder reacts with it at all.

[dtknowles]

LAGS, Your comment about Thermite got me looking deeper into it. Adding aluminum to Crimson Powder (with Iron Oxide) will not make it into thermite but I will definitely up the energy to a dangerous level (just KNO3 and AL is an explosive mixture). I made some crude Thermite today to test. Just Iron Oxide and Aluminum. It definitely makes some serious heat but I would take a lot of what I tested to burn through steel. I filled a 45 acp case with my Thermite and lit it with a match for a starter. A few sparks like a sparkler and the brass case turned incandescent orange like if you heated it with a torch only much faster the whole case was glowing. I might do it again an make a video it was pretty cool. The reaction was like expected the aluminum oxidized and the iron reduced. The residue had metal pieces that were attracted to a magnet. The only the mouth of the case melted. I think it would take a bigger charge to melt the brass or a different mixture ratio. I did not do the chemistry to find the optimum ratio.

Tim

[LAGS]

We found a Thermite Grenade on a military base where we were doing demolition on some old buildings from back in the '40s.
We went out with a Gunny to the range.
He pulled the pin and threw it on an old half track.
It burnt a hole about 2' wide and melted the metal really good.
Plus they couldn't extinguish it with water.
Thermite didn't seem explosive , just super flammable.

[dtknowles]

We found a Thermite Grenade on a military base where we were doing demolition on some old buildings from back in the '40s.
We went out with a Gunny to the range.
He pulled the pin and threw it on an old half track.
It burnt a hole about 2' wide and melted the metal really good.
Plus they couldn't extinguish it with water.
Thermite didn't seem explosive , just super flammable.

Exactly right. It does not make much gas, just a lot of heat. Putting water on it can minimize the destruction as it cools things off but it will not stop the reaction since it does not need external oxygen, you can't smother it. Pretty much unstoppable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

Tim

[dtknowles]

We found a Thermite Grenade on a military base where we were doing demolition on some old buildings from back in the '40s.
We went out with a Gunny to the range.
He pulled the pin and threw it on an old half track.
It burnt a hole about 2' wide and melted the metal really good.
Plus they couldn't extinguish it with water.
Thermite didn't seem explosive , just super flammable.

Did the one you found look like this?

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/land/m14-th3.htm

I wish I have read this before I made the thermite the warning about not looking at the fire. I had a little blurred vision for a few minutes. Same deal with flash powder, the aluminum flash seems to be dangerous to your vision. Heed the warning.

Tim

[LAGS]

Yep.
The Thermite one looked like that.
Plus there were two anti personnel grenades and a unopened carton of cigarettes from back in the '40s.
The two other grenades would not go off when the Gunny tried them.
My boss sold the cigarettes to a collector.
All that stuff was found in the floor of one of the barracks.
The gunny said that we were lucky we didn't run over that thermite one with the loader.
It could have burned the bucket off.

[Sandro_ventania]

I applaud everyone who is working on a GP recipe but at this point, it appears the consistency from batch to batch and shot to shot is widely variable, with a formula based on appearance and no obvious tolerance range for cooking temperature or time; it seems to require an "artistic" approach. Commercial powder is built to a specific process recipe, which can be measured and recorded for repeatability. Would be nice to see results made from 5 or more separate batches which were repeatable with low SD numbers.

The APP powder (American Pioneer Powder), is the GP, it has regularity... they certainly defined a proportion, a cooking point. We are doing our tests, let's come up with a good recipe together and document it for others to follow. For me the path is fun.

[Sandro_ventania]

What are your opinions on loaded rounds? Will they degrade over time?

Would a sealant on the bullet/neck and primer/pocket like used on some military ammunition be needed?

As I believe that the problem is just humidity, so loading and applying sealant, to prevent humidity from entering the cartridge, is the way to go. However, I repeat, there is no need for long storage... do it according to your use.

[Sandro_ventania]

LAGS, Your comment about Thermite got me looking deeper into it. Adding aluminum to Crimson Powder (with Iron Oxide) will not make it into thermite but I will definitely up the energy to a dangerous level (just KNO3 and AL is an explosive mixture). I made some crude Thermite today to test. Just Iron Oxide and Aluminum. It definitely makes some serious heat but I would take a lot of what I tested to burn through steel. I filled a 45 acp case with my Thermite and lit it with a match for a starter. A few sparks like a sparkler and the brass case turned incandescent orange like if you heated it with a torch only much faster the whole case was glowing. I might do it again an make a video it was pretty cool. The reaction was like expected the aluminum oxidized and the iron reduced. The residue had metal pieces that were attracted to a magnet. The only the mouth of the case melted. I think it would take a bigger charge to melt the brass or a different mixture ratio. I did not do the chemistry to find the optimum ratio.

Tim

Everything is a matter of proportion. Perhaps a small addition of aluminum will only increase the power of the powder, without any other effect. I saw a similar powder that used lead nitrate in a small proportion...the sky is the limit!

[LAGS]

From my limited experience with fireworks.
Adding a little aluminium powder mostly just made the flame or sparks brighter.
It didn't seem to increase the burn rate on the powder.
Like if you added it to rocket fuel powder.
It didn't make the rocket go faster or explode more.
It just made it leave a bright trail from the flame.

[Sandro_ventania]

heres a puzzle for the scientists
has anybody tried citric acid powder ?
1) its way cheaper and more easily obtained than ascorbic
2) citric acid formula C6 H8 O7 vs ascorbic acid C6 H8 O6
Citric more aggressive as an acid --one more O in the formula would a little more oxidiser be a problem
gotta be a reason this hasnt been done already - I am curious what that is??????

Joe, we are both curious about citric acid!!! I don't have it on hand, otherwise I would have already tested it! alone and then together with ascorbic

[Sandro_ventania]

From my limited experience with fireworks.
Adding a little aluminium powder mostly just made the flame or sparks brighter.
It didn't seem to increase the burn rate on the powder.
Like if you added it to rocket fuel powder.
It didn't make the rocket go faster or explode more.
It just made it leave a bright trail from the flame.

Increasing the temperature increases the expansion of gases. consequently, more momentum. It makes sense?

[SSGOldfart]

Nice job looking forward to rest of the story. :popcorn:

[dtknowles]

From my limited experience with fireworks.
Adding a little aluminium powder mostly just made the flame or sparks brighter.
It didn't seem to increase the burn rate on the powder.
Like if you added it to rocket fuel powder.
It didn't make the rocket go faster or explode more.
It just made it leave a bright trail from the flame.

I am a rocket scientist and have tested advanced solid rocket motors, and the added aluminum does them go faster so does adding a little nitrocellulose. The motors I have tested used ammonium perchlorate and HTPB (a kind of synthetic rubber) or PBAN (a kind of plastic), that is your cheap garden variety solid rocket motor (if you don't count the black powder ones). You want to juice that you add the aluminum and or Nitro. The juiced motors cost more and will erode the nozzle faster because of the higher temperatures.

As far as can adding aluminum to a hobby/fireworks rocket motor. It would be about getting the proportions right. The aluminum needs a lot of oxidizers just like charcoal so if you add aluminum you need to reduce the charcoal, you can't just add aluminum to improve the performance. If you reduce the charcoal to zero and replace it all with aluminum the motor will probably explode, Flash powder is much faster than black powder. Sure one could play around with ratios and probably get better velocities. I wonder about the fowling. Might not be too bad if the aluminum all burns to oxide but aluminum oxide is something that is made into sandpaper.

Something to think about. Same with adding nitro-cellulose and I don't mean duplex. Nitro-cellulose is a plastic, it might help make the GP flow better thru an extruder to make real grains like cordite.

There is not shortage of interesting paths to make gun powders.


Tim

[beemer]

This is an interesting thread and I am following. I read an article years ago explaining all the compounds that could be used for gunpowder. Some were much better than BP. The problem was expense and availability at the time. The black powder that we use was picked because it could be produced with more common materials at a price that people could afford. Things don't change much, it was business.

[Sandro_ventania]

I am a rocket scientist and have tested advanced solid rocket motors, and the added aluminum does them go faster so does adding a little nitrocellulose. The motors I have tested used ammonium perchlorate and HTPB (a kind of synthetic rubber) or PBAN (a kind of plastic), that is your cheap garden variety solid rocket motor (if you don't count the black powder ones). You want to juice that you add the aluminum and or Nitro. The juiced motors cost more and will erode the nozzle faster because of the higher temperatures.

As far as can adding aluminum to a hobby/fireworks rocket motor. It would be about getting the proportions right. The aluminum needs a lot of oxidizers just like charcoal so if you add aluminum you need to reduce the charcoal, you can't just add aluminum to improve the performance. If you reduce the charcoal to zero and replace it all with aluminum the motor will probably explode, Flash powder is much faster than black powder. Sure one could play around with ratios and probably get better velocities. I wonder about the fowling. Might not be too bad if the aluminum all burns to oxide but aluminum oxide is something that is made into sandpaper.

Something to think about. Same with adding nitro-cellulose and I don't mean duplex. Nitro-cellulose is a plastic, it might help make the GP flow better thru an extruder to make real grains like cordite.

There is not shortage of interesting paths to make gun powders.


Tim
It's great to have someone with experience here, thanks for contributing! The issue with nitrocellulose is that it is expensive to produce and gunpowder is already available. Maybe adding a percentage to the GP will make it stronger, still possible to use in the muzzleloader and at a much lower cost... What proportion do you consider ideal? But I think the search here is to find a product that is easy to make at home and that is independent of the arms industry. We should look at the advantages of GP, a cheap, easy to make and clean propellant. If you want more strength, increase the dose of powder!

[Sandro_ventania]

Have you ever heard of white powder? It's stronger than the GP, it's just not as clean... I've seen it used in 9mm. The recipe is also simple. 65% potassium nitrate (perchlorate is even better) and 35% starch. Put the nitrate to melt in boiling water, just like GP, after the nitrate is completely dissolved, remove from the heat and add the starch, mixing vigorously. then spread it on plastic and let it dry. Once dry, just grind and use. SP is stronger because of its formula, C6H10O6 having 2 more hydrogen molecules (fuel) than ascorbic acid C6H8O6. If your starch isn't very fine, running it through a ball mill should help.

[Sandro_ventania]

I've never seen iron oxide used in SP, maybe it makes it even better! Ahh... burning him free, he's slower than BP. but this says little, as smokeless powder is also slow.

[jreidthompson1]

As information

https://patents.justia.com/patent/5557151


Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[2TM101]

I applaud everyone who is working on a GP recipe but at this point, it appears the consistency from batch to batch and shot to shot is widely variable, with a formula based on appearance and no obvious tolerance range for cooking temperature or time; it seems to require an "artistic" approach.

Indeed so, I suspect mostly because Golden Powder was not even really discussed in forums like this until mere weeks ago, it has been the tool of fireworks makers who have learned to not talk about how to make explosives online. Most of the people I know who use this have been making fireworks with it for years in an environment where it being corrosive, exceeding a certain pressure or doing other things just gives you a different looking product because you WANT it to blow up and destroy the container it is in. I could document in detail just what temperature, duration, quantities etc. to use, and someone doing whatever they wanted to would have an explosion, claim they were following my instructions and try to sue me.

Golden powder is safe to make but too weak for cartridge gun applications. Crimson powder IS good enough but its practically a two person operation to make it because someone has to be standing there with an infrared thermometer to tell you when to stop.
I mean at the pyrosouce instruction page for it it says "Be careful not to heat too much or spontaneous ignition may occur". Well that certainly does not inspire confidence.

In fact I am probably going to make a small batch of crimson powder, leave it on the stove and keep taking temperature readings until it goes off so I know where that is.

[HWooldridge]

Indeed so, I suspect mostly because Golden Powder was not even really discussed in forums like this until mere weeks ago, it has been the tool of fireworks makers who have learned to not talk about how to make explosives online. Most of the people I know who use this have been making fireworks with it for years in an environment where it being corrosive, exceeding a certain pressure or doing other things just gives you a different looking product because you WANT it to blow up and destroy the container it is in. I could document in detail just what temperature, duration, quantities etc. to use, and someone doing whatever they wanted to would have an explosion, claim they were following my instructions and try to sue me.

Golden powder is safe to make but too weak for cartridge gun applications. Crimson powder IS good enough but its practically a two person operation to make it because someone has to be standing there with an infrared thermometer to tell you when to stop.
I mean at the pyrosouce instruction page for it it says "Be careful not to heat too much or spontaneous ignition may occur". Well that certainly does not inspire confidence.

In fact I am probably going to make a small batch of crimson powder, leave it on the stove and keep taking temperature readings until it goes off so I know where that is.

I appreciate your scientific approach and look forward to the results - just please don't cause yourself any injury (or worse).

[Sandro_ventania]

Indeed so, I suspect mostly because Golden Powder was not even really discussed in forums like this until mere weeks ago, it has been the tool of fireworks makers who have learned to not talk about how to make explosives online. Most of the people I know who use this have been making fireworks with it for years in an environment where it being corrosive, exceeding a certain pressure or doing other things just gives you a different looking product because you WANT it to blow up and destroy the container it is in. I could document in detail just what temperature, duration, quantities etc. to use, and someone doing whatever they wanted to would have an explosion, claim they were following my instructions and try to sue me.

Golden powder is safe to make but too weak for cartridge gun applications. Crimson powder IS good enough but its practically a two person operation to make it because someone has to be standing there with an infrared thermometer to tell you when to stop.
I mean at the pyrosouce instruction page for it it says "Be careful not to heat too much or spontaneous ignition may occur". Well that certainly does not inspire confidence.

In fact I am probably going to make a small batch of crimson powder, leave it on the stove and keep taking temperature readings until it goes off so I know where that is.

This will be very useful for everyone! I read somewhere that BP lights up at 300°C (celsius), GP says it's above that.

[jreidthompson1]

The link with the patents indicate no heat or not to exceed 150 F

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I don't have my Iron Oxide yet, but when I do I'm going to try and make Yellow Powder and Orange Powder by adding some sulfur to the mix. Sulfur less BP isn't very good so maybe it will improve performance in this new type of powder. It should also allow some compression of the dry mix if desired.

[dtknowles]

It's great to have someone with experience here, thanks for contributing! The issue with nitrocellulose is that it is expensive to produce and gunpowder is already available. Maybe adding a percentage to the GP will make it stronger, still possible to use in the muzzleloader and at a much lower cost... What proportion do you consider ideal? But I think the search here is to find a product that is easy to make at home and that is independent of the arms industry. We should look at the advantages of GP, a cheap, easy to make and clean propellant. If you want more strength, increase the dose of powder!

I mostly agree, in muzzle loaders there is no problem with increasing the dose/charge. In cartridges there might not be room for more powder. 5 percent nitrocellulose would be where I would start and no don't use it in black powder guns.

Repeat do not put any powder containing nitrocellulose in a black powder gun.

Where to get nitrocellulose, smokeless powder is the obvious source. A little would go a long way, just like duplexing only simpler.

Tim

[Sandro_ventania]

Repita, não coloque nenhum pó contendo nitrocelulose em uma pistola de pólvora negra.

We all always hear that. Okay, we never know which idiot will read this thread, do we? But in truth, we know that the problem is the measurement and not the product. Or do you really believe that a muzzleloader that works with 120 grains of Black powder will explode if loaded with 1 grain of smokeless??? So to be true, I repeat, the problem is not the product, the problem is the measurement. I don't like spreading a myth, just to protect idiots...let natural selection work...ha ha ha ha!!

[MUSTANG]

How does one convert (Finely cut?) the Nitro Cellulose product (Home Made) into a powder for inclusion into Golden Powder or.....? References and reproduction of the old "Gun Cotton" recipes/re-enactors have it as an uncompressed paper cartridge that is dropped into the period reproduction firearms of Europe of the time period. Inclusion into a Golden Powder is my query.

[ofitg]

It should be mentioned that nitrocellulose powder has an auto-ignition temperature (ie, "cook off" temperature) in the neighborhood of 300 degrees Fahrenheit (~ 150 degrees Celcius).

Sandro's photo back in post #30 suggests that this temperature might be reached during preparation of Golden Powder -

https://i.imgur.com/CL7fAN9.png

[MUSTANG]

Question. Are those making Golden Powder doing so with ingredients by Volume or by weight (i.e. citations of 60% and 40%).

I measured out 60/40 by weight percentage (180 grains and 120 grains) plus same VOLUME of distilled water which was 330 Grains by weight.

Which is being used - weight or volume?

[Nobade]

Weight here. I use my little digital gram scale.

[Nobade]

I don't have my Iron Oxide yet, but when I do I'm going to try and make Yellow Powder and Orange Powder by adding some sulfur to the mix. Sulfur less BP isn't very good so maybe it will improve performance in this new type of powder. It should also allow some compression of the dry mix if desired.

Please be careful with yellow powder! I was reading up on that today and it is pretty dangerous stuff. Certainly not something you'd want to use in a gun barrel. Don't know anything about orange powder though.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Please be careful with yellow powder! I was reading up on that today and it is pretty dangerous stuff. Certainly not something you'd want to use in a gun barrel. Don't know anything about orange powder though.

I only meant adding Sulfur to the Golden powder and the Crimson powder. I assume it would look yellow and orange. Just trying to get a jump on the patent :-)

[MUSTANG]

Well I did my 1st cooking attempt on the Golden Powder - Looks more like Outhouse Residue Powder; it was pretty smelly too.

322889

It never turned "Golden". It cooked like a bad batch of Brownies. Seemed to Immediately go to Brown then Black. Gummy and would not come off the Spatula.

After it cooled; I managed to scrape much of it off bottom of the old Stainless Steel fry pan I cooked it in using a 4 inch putty knife. Did same with the Spatula. Cleaning up the pan may be a challenge - starting with filling the pan with water and letting the spatula and pan sit overnight. I am going to let the residue I scraped out sit a few days then crush and screen through a Kitchen Strainer to get smaller particles. I have Low Expectations on this.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Well I did my 1st cooking attempt on the Golden Powder - Looks more like Outhouse Residue Powder; it was pretty smelly too.

322889

It never turned "Golden". It cooked like a bad batch of Brownies. Seemed to Immediately go to Brown then Black. Gummy and would not come off the Spatula.

After it cooled; I managed to scrape much of it off bottom of the old Stainless Steel fry pan I cooked it in using a 4 inch putty knife. Did same with the Spatula. Cleaning up the pan may be a challenge - starting with filling the pan with water and letting the spatula and pan sit overnight. I am going to let the residue I scraped out sit a few days then crush and screen through a Kitchen Strainer to get smaller particles. I have Low Expectations on this.

Did you measure your heat or cook time? We can learn a lot even from a failure.

[dtknowles]

We all always hear that. Okay, we never know which idiot will read this thread, do we? But in truth, we know that the problem is the measurement and not the product. Or do you really believe that a muzzleloader that works with 120 grains of Black powder will explode if loaded with 1 grain of smokeless??? So to be true, I repeat, the problem is not the product, the problem is the measurement. I don't like spreading a myth, just to protect idiots...let natural selection work...ha ha ha ha!!

Actually there is a bit of a product issue. Not all muzzleloaders can handle the same pressures. Each one could handle some charge of some nitro powder but nobody really know which ones can handle how much and finding out can be a problem. I actually have a muzzleloader designed for smokeless powder a Savage 10ML. It has never had blackpowder in it. I hear the manufacturer wants to get them all back for some reason. I am holding on to mine.

Tim

[Sandro_ventania]

It should be mentioned that nitrocellulose powder has an auto-ignition temperature (ie, "cook off" temperature) in the neighborhood of 300 degrees Fahrenheit (~ 150 degrees Celcius).

Sandro's photo back in post #30 suggests that this temperature might be reached during preparation of Golden Powder -

https://i.imgur.com/CL7fAN9.png

well noted. I would make the GP, grind it very finely, like using an electric coffee grinder and then dissolve the smokeless gunpowder, based on nitrocellulose in acetone and add it to the ground GP, forming a mass that will harden when the acetone dries.

[dtknowles]

It should be mentioned that nitrocellulose powder has an auto-ignition temperature (ie, "cook off" temperature) in the neighborhood of 300 degrees Fahrenheit (~ 150 degrees Celcius).

Sandro's photo back in post #30 suggests that this temperature might be reached during preparation of Golden Powder -

https://i.imgur.com/CL7fAN9.png

Nope you can't add the Nitro before you cook it. It would have to be mixed with the golden powder after it is ground.

Tim

[Sandro_ventania]

Well I did my 1st cooking attempt on the Golden Powder - Looks more like Outhouse Residue Powder; it was pretty smelly too.

322889

It never turned "Golden". It cooked like a bad batch of Brownies. Seemed to Immediately go to Brown then Black. Gummy and would not come off the Spatula.

After it cooled; I managed to scrape much of it off bottom of the old Stainless Steel fry pan I cooked it in using a 4 inch putty knife. Did same with the Spatula. Cleaning up the pan may be a challenge - starting with filling the pan with water and letting the spatula and pan sit overnight. I am going to let the residue I scraped out sit a few days then crush and screen through a Kitchen Strainer to get smaller particles. I have Low Expectations on this.

Mustang,
you're definitely over the top. When the water finishes drying, the dough is white, moments later it begins totake on a yellow, beige, light caramel color... a café au lait... that's the point. You take this sticky mass like melted cheese off the heat and keep stirring until it cools, where it starts to harden. If it didn't go through these phases, it went from white straight to black, then your ingredients are in trouble! try again!

[Sandro_ventania]

the reason the manufacturer wants those back is because so many of them blew up ---not the fault of the gun - but smokeless powder muzzleloader was always an idiotic idea there just too many fools out there ----savage makes good guns but this was probably the dumbest idea in the last hundred years of firearm development and for what? so some greedy dudes could go out and cheat in muzzleloader deer season.

there are many imbeciles or just ignorant people, who will carry smokeless powder with the same measure of BP... that's the problem! Imagine putting 100 grains of nitrocellulose behind a 500 grain projectile?!!! I don't think any modern rifle can handle this, imagine a muzzleloader!

[2TM101]

I don't have my Iron Oxide yet, but when I do I'm going to try and make Yellow Powder.

The reason Golden Powder is called that and not just called "Yellow Powder" is because actual Yellow Powder (https://pyrodata.com/compositions/Yellow-powder)is nothing you want anywhere near a gun. Incidentally, Iron Oxide is not a component of it.

[2TM101]

The link with the patents indicate no heat or not to exceed 150 F

The mixed components are either dried at room temperature or at an elevated temperature as desired. If an elevated temperature is selected, it is important that the temperature be controlled to prevent the dried mixture from exceeding a temperature of approximately 175° F. (79° C.) at temperatures above about 184° (84° C.)since the ascorbic acid will undergo undesirable decomposition the products of which can produce a hazardous condition in the presence of the strong oxidizer, KNO3. During the drying process, when elevated temperatures are employed, a color change will occur and the dry mixture will take on a golden brown color. Care must be taken to avoid the formation of a deep red color in the mixture as that can be an indication that the constituents have either reacted due to an exclusively high temperature which should be avoided as previously described.

Note the "deep red color" does not mean the mixture has gone bad, but its getting ready to go REALLY bad. Also note, you CAN go over 175 when the water is still boiling off. but you have to be under that before the water is all gone. If you are making Crimson powder without constantly monitoring it with a thermometer its like going to the roulette wheel in Vegas and betting on green.

[dtknowles]

I dont see how this (nitro / GP) mix could be simpler than duplexing ??? but then I need glasses to see stuff .................................................. ..........................

Duplexing you have to measure or throw two separate charges. Premixing does add to powder making complexity. Save here lose there, tradeoff. Would be a bigger savings if you were making a lot of ammo or using a progressive press.

Tim

[dtknowles]

the reason the manufacturer wants those back is because so many of them blew up ---not the fault of the gun - but smokeless powder muzzleloader was always an idiotic idea there just too many fools out there ----savage makes good guns but this was probably the dumbest idea in the last hundred years of firearm development and for what? so some greedy dudes could go out and cheat in muzzleloader deer season.

We don't have a muzzleloader deer season we have a primitive rifle deer season that lets you use a single shot cartridge rifle if you want so I don't see how it would be cheating. I just think the idea of a muzzleloader that uses smokeless powder is cool. If they did not jack the price of shotgun shell primers through the roof....well.

Tim

[Jadkins87]

Great information Thanks for sharing..

God Bless

JDAS

[Hellgate]

Let's get back to golden powder.....

[Sandro_ventania]

I talked about the white powder, (nitrate and starch), no one commented... did you already know? Has anyone tried it?

[MUSTANG]

What kind of starch? Corn Starch? Traditional Laundry Starch? or....?

[elmacgyver0]

When I was a kid, my neighbor had an old single barrel shotgun in their basement with the name "White Powder Wonder" on the receiver.

[indian joe]

Let's get back to golden powder.....

yessir ! consider it done........................................

[Sandro_ventania]

What kind of starch? Corn Starch? Traditional Laundry Starch? or....?

it could be cornstarch... Maizena. I prefer Tapioca starch.

[dtknowles]

I think the key is to become smart about the chemistry. What are the good fuels, what are the good oxidizers, how do you combine them, what ones need a modifier to improve ignition and what additives jack up the performance. We don't know today what ingredients will be available in the future but we can learn how to prepare many different propellants for our uses.
Tim

[Sledgehammers_at_Dawn]

As information

https://patents.justia.com/patent/5557151


Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk
Interesting read. Does that mean you aren’t supposed to make it, or not supposed to make it and sell it?

[MUSTANG]

Found this reference on making Golden Powder - No Cooking
https://pyrodata.com/PyroGuide/index.php%5Etitle=Golden_Powder_(Uncooked).htm



Golden Powder (Uncooked)

Golden Powder in general refers to a composition consisting primarily of potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid(vitamin C) cooked together to form a "golden powder". It is considered a black powder substitute. An uncooked version exists with a few additional chemicals.

Composition
The following weight percent composition has been prepared and found to provide optimum gas generating characteristics:

Potassium nitrate
64.3

Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)
32.1

Charcoal
1.8

Iron oxide (red)
1.8

Method
If the starting materials have particle sizes less than about 150 microns, then the ingredients may be mixed together without the use of a ball mill. When the ingredients have been thoroughly mixed, and / or reduced in size, the resulting composition then has the capability of being used for propellant, without a cooking step. The composition will not have the desired properties if the following steps are not taken: Water, will next be added to the composition, although the addition of water is optional. The amount of water added need only be enough to moisten the composition. Experimentation has shown that the amount of water normally ranges from between about 0% and about 5%, of dry composition, with the optimum amount of water being about 1.5% of dry composition. Other materials may be used as a binder, for example vegetable starch, such as corn starch or ethyl cellulose, "binder" materials also assist in compacting the material. Too much moisture added to the mixture will not affect the firing of the subsequently dried composition, but will cause the composition to stick, the mixture may be formed into sheets by hand kneading techniques, without mechanical pressure, or it may be subjected to pressures of as much as 40,000 psi, or more. While the compaction and formation of sheets of the composition either by hand or by using a roll mill press apparatus. After drying the mixture it is then broken up and screened and separated to desired size.

[MUSTANG]

I think I'll give this one a trial; but it may be two weeks or so before I can get to-it.

[Sandro_ventania]

I think I'll give this one a trial; but it may be two weeks or so before I can get to-it.

Golden powder cooked less than ideal is already a clear difference. This raw mixture, I wouldn't even try. And I wouldn't use charcoal either, as one of the advantages of GP is cleaning. Mustang, try cooking it again... it's not difficult.

[Sledgehammers_at_Dawn]

I’m giving the dry mixture a try. Not much charcoal or iron oxide in it. It’s in my ball mill and I’ll press it tomorrow. See how long it takes to dry. Kind of humid here at the moment.

[Sledgehammers_at_Dawn]

What weights of total product are people using? I started with 100g total weight to see what would fit in my ball mill. Seemed to be right but a little more might have worked. No math works best for me;-)

[barrabruce]

I batched 500 grains to give me about a 14 or 15 30 grain 30-30 loads.
My first batch of GP loaded with equivalent of measure of @30 grns smokeless 20+? Gp.
The load fell apart with tipping and yawing,being too slow and bullet too long.
Second batch of cooked GP which I believe turned out well I weighed 30 grains of GP and they filled 3/4 up the neck of the 30-30 cases. Seated a 150 grns paperpatched bullet on top compressing it.
Pretty well chuffed at the results.
Got a bout 2" group at 50 mtres with dry patches.
Lubed patches not so good.
Note this is in rifling that has sharp potholes and tiny yabbie holes all the way through it and I think the lubed patches are too soft and get ripped torn and a braided away.
One can only push a patch to clean from chamber to muzzle as trying to bring it back the other way it comes out a torn mess.

One of the best groups I have got out of it so far.
I’m not sure if I should wipe between shots or shoot until it falls apart.
Nice plume of white smoke that doesn’t stink.
Fouling was a tea colour coming out the bore with hot water poured through.
Velocity who knows.
Seemed to clean up easy enough, but will swab out tomorrow and see.
323012
I may get a group out of this gun yet.
It’s only for ****s and giggles shooting.
See how others go with it all.
I may have to make more than the 20 cases I have for this weird chambered gun.
Having fun regardless.

[Nobade]

That is great results for kitchen stove gunpowder! I haven't tried it in cartridge rifles yet, looks like it needs a go there.

[HamGunner]

Although I don't guess I really have a need for any of the Golden Powders, I plan on testing some just for fun. Who knows, I might find an abundance of Ascorbic Acid sometime. That seems to be the most expensive part of the ingredients.

I have about 1/4 lb. of the Golden cooked up and screened. Found that one of my Teflon-lined mini crock pots plugged into a rheostat worked out perfectly to control the heat and it does not stick to the pot. Waiting on some Red Iron Oxide so I can make up about the same size batch of the dry milled & pressed. Fun & games.

I am anxious to see how this stuff does. I have a short CVA .32 cal. Squirrel carbine that fouls easily with Black. This might be a winner for it if the speed is decent and the fouling is less.

[Nobade]

I thought I could be as cool as some of you and post a picture of my target but the site says it's an invalid file. So you'll just have to use your imagination. I loaded 10 rounds of 30-30 with the RCBS 150 cowboy bullet and as much crimson powder as I could get in the case. Fired it through an old Marlin with microgroove rifling, at 100 yards. First shot was just outside the black (4 inches) and the other 9 went into the black with three in the X ring. No fouling to speak of, doesn't feel quite as powerful as black powder but certainly is respectable. I'd guess maybe 1400 fps. Funny thing is the barrel doesn't get nearly as hot as when using black powder. It's also sort of amusing getting to load cartridges with what looks like dirt. And load data is easy, just fill it up and stick a bullet on top. What I'm seeing is the more pressure we can generate, the better this works. I am planning on taking it to the extreme that I can, and try some in the 6.5x55. If anybody has a RUM or some sort that would be even better. Also, these are plain base bullets, no gas check, normal smokeless lube, and no leading or fouling. Pretty neat stuff, probably would be ideal for cowboy action shooting.

And HamGunner, the crimson powder was terrible in my 32 caliber Cherokee. Curious to hear how it works in your CVA rifle.

[HWooldridge]

Nobade,

Did you compress the GP, similar to what is usually done with BP cartridges?

[2TM101]

I talked about the white powder, (nitrate and starch), no one commented... did you already know? Has anyone tried it?

Just got back from Ralphs with the Argo corn starch (Gluten Free!), but its raining here and will be for days and I do all of this stuff outside.

So far golden powder is a go, but next batch I will actually puck & corn it just like BP as what I have made so far is not very dense - just like regular riced BP like I made four years ago that proved to be no good for revolvers it was so weak.

Crimson powder is as good as regular BP but making it is not for anyone new to this (Like I was in 2019)

"White Powder" could have one big advantage as the components are really cheap, and you can use cheap lube as there is no sulfur. I cannot find any reference as to how powerful this stuff would actually be. It will be the next thing I make after the rain lets up.

I got a couple of Knight Inline .50's off gunbroker cheap that I do all of this testing in. Ones that use the primers I can make, not 209's

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=2TM101;5684083]Just got back from Ralphs with the Argo corn starch (Gluten Free!), but its raining here and will be for days and I do all of this stuff outside.

So far golden powder is a go, but next batch I will actually puck & corn it just like BP as what I have made so far is not very dense - just like regular riced BP like I made four years ago that proved to be no good for revolvers it was so weak.

We use screened blackpowder in our revolvers all the time - fill the cylinder right to the top - compress the charge with the loading lever - insert round ball as normal - grease over top - good to go - definitely NOT weak charges .....................

[Nobade]

Nobade,

Did you compress the GP, similar to what is usually done with BP cartridges?

Just with the bullet. I didn't use a compression die.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

My first batch was made just now. Pictures and video coming soon.

First attempt I used too much water and everything disappeared into solution.

Second attempt was perfect. I just cranked my little heater on high and let it rip. It turned a nice deep gold color and dried as hard as a rock.

I started with 100grams 60/40 mix. The stuff was too hard to break up with my rolling pin without smacking it like a hammer. So that's what I did until they were bean size and could fit in my ceramic grinder. My yield was 27grams of rifle/shotgun size, 34grams of pistol, and 23grams of fines which I'm not sure what to do with. Any ideas on how to recycle it?

Clean up with the pan was easy with hot water, but impossible to remove by any other means.

Initial burn tests were good. I can tell it's not as fast as my finest black.

It doesn't have any give to it so I doubt you can compress it, only crunch it into more dust.

If this works we'll have to find a better method of making large batches.

[Sandro_ventania]

My first batch was made just now. Pictures and video coming soon.

First attempt I used too much water and everything disappeared into solution.

Second attempt was perfect. I just cranked my little heater on high and let it rip. It turned a nice deep gold color and dried as hard as a rock.

I started with 100grams 60/40 mix. The stuff was too hard to break up with my rolling pin without smacking it like a hammer. So that's what I did until they were bean size and could fit in my ceramic grinder. My yield was 27grams of rifle/shotgun size, 34grams of pistol, and 23grams of fines which I'm not sure what to do with. Any ideas on how to recycle it?

Clean up with the pan was easy with hot water, but impossible to remove by any other means.

Initial burn tests were good. I can tell it's not as fast as my finest black.

It doesn't have any give to it so I doubt you can compress it, only crunch it into more dust.

If this works we'll have to find a better method of making large batches.

the fines you can re-dissolve in water and dry to make a new cake. But I would mix it with pistol powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

My friend Ofitg reminded me of this site that Nobade had posted before, in the black powder topic. There he shows a method to be reproductive, so that we always have a powder with the same characteristics. Note in the article that, based on the tests they carried out, the GP performed the same or even 10% better than the BP... it has some very interesting test data. It is worth reading the article carefully. I just wouldn't worry about using potassium bicarbonate...in this case the proportion used was 62.7 nitrate and 37.3 ascorbic acid....63 and 37 for simplicity. I tested this proportion and found it really good. Simply dissolve in hot water and dry in an oven at 120°C. Read!


https://pyrodata.com/PyroGuide/index.php%5Etitle=Talk_Golden_Powder.htm

[Sandro_ventania]

I batched 500 grains to give me about a 14 or 15 30 grain 30-30 loads.
My first batch of GP loaded with equivalent of measure of @30 grns smokeless 20+? Gp.
The load fell apart with tipping and yawing,being too slow and bullet too long.
Second batch of cooked GP which I believe turned out well I weighed 30 grains of GP and they filled 3/4 up the neck of the 30-30 cases. Seated a 150 grns paperpatched bullet on top compressing it.
Pretty well chuffed at the results.
Got a bout 2" group at 50 mtres with dry patches.
Lubed patches not so good.
Note this is in rifling that has sharp potholes and tiny yabbie holes all the way through it and I think the lubed patches are too soft and get ripped torn and a braided away.
One can only push a patch to clean from chamber to muzzle as trying to bring it back the other way it comes out a torn mess.

One of the best groups I have got out of it so far.
I’m not sure if I should wipe between shots or shoot until it falls apart.
Nice plume of white smoke that doesn’t stink.
Fouling was a tea colour coming out the bore with hot water poured through.
Velocity who knows.
Seemed to clean up easy enough, but will swab out tomorrow and see.
323012
I may get a group out of this gun yet.
It’s only for ****s and giggles shooting.
See how others go with it all.
I may have to make more than the 20 cases I have for this weird chambered gun.
Having fun regardless.

Very good! And look, if you need more power for some reason, a duplex charge should do the trick...it'll still be an economical shot! Keep posting your encouraging results!

[Sandro_ventania]

Does anyone have citric acid to test? Use in place of ascorbic acid. A small batch of 100 grains, just to test viability.

[2TM101]

[QUOTE=2TM101;5684083]Just got back from Ralphs with the Argo corn starch (Gluten Free!), but its raining here and will be for days and I do all of this stuff outside.

So far golden powder is a go, but next batch I will actually puck & corn it just like BP as what I have made so far is not very dense - just like regular riced BP like I made four years ago that proved to be no good for revolvers it was so weak.

We use screened blackpowder in our revolvers all the time - fill the cylinder right to the top - compress the charge with the loading lever - insert round ball as normal - grease over top - good to go - definitely NOT weak charges .....................Thinking back I was not using a binder and may have been using a charcoal source that was not the best either, I was just starting out. Screened powder worked in my rifle and Walker revolver, the others didn't hold enough powder. I probably could have learned to make better screened powder but I went to the ball mill & the press, as well as using commercial charcoal from a fireworks company.

Now my charcoal is made from the contents of the paper shredder at work. Making it into charcoal and firing it out of a gun is SCI grade top secret document destruction......

[2TM101]

Very good! And look, if you need more power for some reason, a duplex charge should do the trick...it'll still be an economical shot! Keep posting your encouraging results!

I made up several boxes of 9mm with 2 grains of W244 topped with a half CC of Golden. Straight GP or BP will not cycle a Glock.

I have now fired hundreds of .38 special consisting of 2.83 grains of W244 (the lowest setting my lee powder measure will go to) Topped with 1CC of Golden, which fills up the case. For reference 4.5 grains is a normal W244 load and I could co as high as 6 grains of W244 as this is a .357. Sounds like smokeless but looks like Black Powder.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

the fines you can re-dissolve in water and dry to make a new cake. But I would mix it with pistol powder.

Do you heat the water? How do you prevent overcooking?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I made up several boxes of 9mm with 2 grains of W244 topped with a half CC of Golden. Straight GP or BP will not cycle a Glock.

I have now fired hundreds of .38 special consisting of 2.83 grains of W244 (the lowest setting my lee powder measure will go to) Topped with 1CC of Golden, which fills up the case. For reference 4.5 grains is a normal W244 load and I could co as high as 6 grains of W244 as this is a .357. Sounds like smokeless but looks like Black Powder.

What size GP are you using? Does size even matter with this stuff?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Video of my first experience.
https://youtu.be/0MDtkp_UYDA?si=RxzJARHtUX_Jf4CA

[LAGS]

Very interesting.
This looks like something I will try to make.
I also want to show a couple of friends how this basic powder is done.
Plus , they do not have all the finer tools to be making top of the line BP.
So this looks like a great option for them to use.

[Lostinidaho]

Super Sneaky Steve--good video

[Nobade]

Agreed, thanks for making the video. I'm not sure how much difference sorting it by size makes, the accuracy I saw yesterday with the 30-30 tends to make me think that it doesn't matter much. More testing is needed.

[HamGunner]

Although I have not tried to return the fines to the next solution, I would think that the fines should dissolve in your next batch on the stove.

[Sandro_ventania]

Very good video and very good result. I try to make it a little clearer...a fine adjustment of the proportion would be 63-37. As for grain, I would only do two classes... up to 3F for muskets and everything else for rifles under .45 and pistols. (If you don't want to do it like this, you can dissolve the fines in a little hot water and dry it to become a hard cake again, you can also save it to add to the next batch). However, the ideal is to test, do several tests with the granulations and find out if it makes a difference like the BP. GP has been exploited commercially and we are only now bringing it to DIY. Let's help spread the word. We await the video with the shots!

[libertyman777]

Video of my first experience.
https://youtu.be/0MDtkp_UYDA?si=RxzJARHtUX_Jf4CA
Very cool!! My son will be very interested. We were talking about homemade powder the other day.

[2TM101]

Very good video and very good result. I try to make it a little clearer...a fine adjustment of the proportion would be 63-37. As for grain, I would only do two classes... up to 3F for muskets and everything else for rifles under .45 and pistols. (If you don't want to do it like this, you can dissolve the fines in a little hot water and dry it to become a hard cake again, you can also save it to add to the next batch). However, the ideal is to test, do several tests with the granulations and find out if it makes a difference like the BP. GP has been exploited commercially and we are only now bringing it to DIY. Let's help spread the word. We await the video with the shots!

I grind, sort and use my GP/CP the same way I do BP. In both cases the fines can be made back into a puck/cake and ground again. When I get to the point where the amount of fines I have left isn't enough to bother with I do something creative with it.

[libertyman777]

I grind, sort and use my GP/CP the same way I do BP. In both cases the fines can be made back into a puck/cake and ground again. When I get to the point where the amount of fines I have left isn't enough to bother with I do something creative with it.

Is that super fine stuff suitable for flash pan powder or is it too fine?

[Nobade]

Is that super fine stuff suitable for flash pan powder or is it too fine?

I tried it in the pan, it works but is noticeably slower than black powder.

[dondiego]

Is this powder sensitive to impact? Black powder is not, and you can pound out hollow core rocket engines with Black Powder.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Is this powder sensitive to impact? Black powder is not, and you can pound out hollow core rocket engines with Black Powder.

I smacked it concrete with a claw hammer and nothing happened.

[2TM101]

Is this powder sensitive to impact? Black powder is not, and you can pound out hollow core rocket engines with Black Powder.

No, and you can compress it to 40,000 PSI, which is a 20 ton press and a 30mm puck, and nobody does that.

EDIT: apparently someone on here DID do that, and the 30mm Dabpress die did not survive for very long.

[2TM101]

Is that super fine stuff suitable for flash pan powder or is it too fine?

Basically no. Its another Black Powder substitute, and it behaves like one, even the Crimson stuff.

[HamGunner]

I tested some stove-top cooked Golden Powder under the Chronograph today. Fired two cylinders full out of my Pietta 1851 .36 cal. Navy using an 80gr. ball. Caps were my home made caps and had no difficulty igniting any of the 12 shots.

Golden Powder 3F Ave. 568 fps. with an ES of 56 fps. SD of 20 fps. I topped off cylinders, compressed with ram, re-filled cylinders and seated ball. Did not weigh or measure the Golden Powder loads. This Golden Powder does shoot very clean. Might make some good plinking powder. The accuracy was noticeably decent.

[Hellgate]

Hamgunner,
Just to clarify: You filled the chambers, then used the rammer to compress the powder then aded more and seated the ball?
That's what I used to do with Black Canyon in .357 cases which I believe was the very first BP substitute powder on the market.

[Tracy]

My friend Ofitg reminded me of this site that Nobade had posted before, in the black powder topic. There he shows a method to be reproductive, so that we always have a powder with the same characteristics. Note in the article that, based on the tests they carried out, the GP performed the same or even 10% better than the BP... it has some very interesting test data. It is worth reading the article carefully. I just wouldn't worry about using potassium bicarbonate...in this case the proportion used was 62.7 nitrate and 37.3 ascorbic acid....63 and 37 for simplicity. I tested this proportion and found it really good. Simply dissolve in hot water and dry in an oven at 120°C. Read!


https://pyrodata.com/PyroGuide/index.php%5Etitle=Talk_Golden_Powder.htm

I read the link and it says: "Heat the solution to 600C to completely dissolve the solids." That's 1112 degrees F! That's almost hot enough to melt aluminum.

[libertyman777]

Basically no. Its another Black Powder substitute, and it behaves like one, even the Crimson stuff.
Ah ok. Well at least it can be reprocessed.

[HamGunner]

Hamgunner,
Just to clarify: You filled the chambers, then used the rammer to compress the powder then aded more and seated the ball?
That's what I used to do with Black Canyon in .357 cases which I believe was the very first BP substitute powder on the market.

Yes, that's right. Topped each chamber and compressed with the ram and topped again before ramming in the ball. Likely enough room for perhaps another few grains, but it was fairly well compressed.

Crimson Powder is my next adventure. Waiting on delivery of some Red Iron Oxide.

[Sandro_ventania]

I read the link and it says: "Heat the solution to 600C to completely dissolve the solids." That's 1112 degrees F! That's almost hot enough to melt aluminum.

There are some writing errors, easily identified. Where it says 600°c is 60°c. Elsewhere it says 200°c, but it is 120°c.

[ofitg]

I tested some stove-top cooked Golden Powder under the Chronograph today. Fired two cylinders full out of my Pietta 1851 .36 cal. Navy using an 80gr. ball. Caps were my home made caps and had no difficulty igniting any of the 12 shots.

Golden Powder 3F Ave. 568 fps. with an ES of 56 fps. SD of 20 fps. I topped off cylinders, compressed with ram, re-filled cylinders and seated ball. Did not weigh or measure the Golden Powder loads. This Golden Powder does shoot very clean. Might make some good plinking powder. The accuracy was noticeably decent.

Thanks for the chrono data!

Golden Powder might be comparable to Black Powder in rifles (still waiting for chrono reports), but it sounds like it could be too slow-burning for pistols. Perhaps adding iron oxide would speed up the combustion?

[Nobade]

Yesterday I made a batch of crimson powder with charcoal, and got some interesting results. It flashed super fast, so I figured I'm good to go. I loaded up 10 rounds of 32 H&R mag for my little rolling block rifle, and not one of them worked correctly. Two stuck bullets in the bore, and the rest were very weak. Quite similar to the results I got with CP in my 32 cal Cherokee rifle. Hmmm.... So, maybe it needs to age a bit? The CP worked great in the 30-30. So I spread it out on a tray on top of the refrigerator to age or dry or whatever it needed to do. Just now, about 32 hours later, I tried it again in the cartridges and it worked great. Lots of power, very similar to black powder. So I guess the lesson is to not get in too big a hurry to test your powder?

I did modify my grinding technique. I had tried previously to make pucks with this stuff. That wasn't much fun, the puck stuck in the die and when I went to break it up it crumbled. But what did work well was keep stirring it after it's cooked, so you end up with maybe 1/4 inch clumps. Looks like Grape Nuts cereal. Then run that through my grain grinder like I do for black powder, and it comes out nicely granulated. It could be screened at that point, but I haven't done that yet.

It looks like we're really on to something here with this stuff, a viable black powder substitute that is easy to make and not terribly expensive at about $5/lb.

[MUSTANG]

My efforts let it sit for a couple of days to "Air Dry". I am thinking that I will try some in a Dehydrator I bought last week for use in our 2024 Garden Produce. Dehydrating at 100°F to 110°F should get me a baseline for comparing testing - even if we have big ranges of Humidity across the Year.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Yesterday I made a batch of crimson powder with charcoal, and got some interesting results. It flashed super fast, so I figured I'm good to go. I loaded up 10 rounds of 32 H&R mag for my little rolling block rifle, and not one of them worked correctly. Two stuck bullets in the bore, and the rest were very weak. Quite similar to the results I got with CP in my 32 cal Cherokee rifle. Hmmm.... So, maybe it needs to age a bit? The CP worked great in the 30-30. So I spread it out on a tray on top of the refrigerator to age or dry or whatever it needed to do. Just now, about 32 hours later, I tried it again in the cartridges and it worked great. Lots of power, very similar to black powder. So I guess the lesson is to not get in too big a hurry to test your powder?

I did modify my grinding technique. I had tried previously to make pucks with this stuff. That wasn't much fun, the puck stuck in the die and when I went to break it up it crumbled. But what did work well was keep stirring it after it's cooked, so you end up with maybe 1/4 inch clumps. Looks like Grape Nuts cereal. Then run that through my grain grinder like I do for black powder, and it comes out nicely granulated. It could be screened at that point, but I haven't done that yet.

It looks like we're really on to something here with this stuff, a viable black powder substitute that is easy to make and not terribly expensive at about $5/lb.

Did you use the formula on page one?
Potassium nitrate 64.3
Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) 32.1
Charcoal 1.8
Iron oxide (red) 1.8

I think I have a good feel for how long it takes to be ready once it starts to turn a little yellow. My plan is to add the iron and char once this stage is reached so that it's easier to make.

[2TM101]

So I spread it out on a tray on top of the refrigerator to age or dry or whatever it needed to do. Just now, about 32 hours later, I tried it again in the cartridges and it worked great. Lots of power, very similar to black powder. So I guess the lesson is to not get in too big a hurry to test your powder? .

Cheap food dehydrator on Amazon. I got one originally so that I could break up my BP pucks after one day instead of a week. GP/CP is even more sensitive to moisture than BP and it helps a lot.

[Nobade]

Did you use the formula on page one?
Potassium nitrate 64.3
Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) 32.1
Charcoal 1.8
Iron oxide (red) 1.8

I think I have a good feel for how long it takes to be ready once it starts to turn a little yellow. My plan is to add the iron and char once this stage is reached so that it's easier to make.

Yes, I did. I mixed everything in together from the start. I think that by the time it starts to turn yellow it may be too late to add the other ingredients since it's already started the polymerization.

I'm going to shoot some more today, but that has to be the cause, too wet. Funny that it burned so well unconfined.

One shot was particularly interesting. It stuck the bullet in the bore and melted the mouth of the cartridge case. I could hear it burning in the chamber, it must generate some pretty high temperatures for a moment.

[HWooldridge]

Brass melts at 1700 F so that’s at least what the chamber saw momentarily. However, it was probably due more to dwell time, i.e, a normal shot is also very hot but the flash is over and done more quickly. Your squib took longer to burn.

[Nobade]

Now I am really thinking that this stuff needs time to age. I ran the latest batch that didn't work in the 32 rifle in the dehydrator all night. I shot some this morning in my 1860 Army revolver. It worked, but not any better then the powder without the charcoal. Then for grins I tried some of my original GP that I made once I figured out how to make it turn yellow. The last time I tried it, it was pretty weak. Today it was at least and maybe even more powerful than the crimson powders. It has been sitting out exposed to the air, no special treatment other than sitting for about a month. I am going to let the other batches age for a while and see if they change as well. There may be some sort of reaction going on slowly, over time here.

The other cool thing was I fired five cylinder fulls, so 30 rounds, with no lube at all and there was no foul out in the barrel and the cylinder still turned easily. I'll probably add a little lube next time, but this is some amazingly clean shooting powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

Yesterday I made a batch of crimson powder with charcoal, and got some interesting results. It flashed super fast, so I figured I'm good to go. I loaded up 10 rounds of 32 H&R mag for my little rolling block rifle, and not one of them worked correctly. Two stuck bullets in the bore, and the rest were very weak. Quite similar to the results I got with CP in my 32 cal Cherokee rifle. Hmmm.... So, maybe it needs to age a bit? The CP worked great in the 30-30. So I spread it out on a tray on top of the refrigerator to age or dry or whatever it needed to do. Just now, about 32 hours later, I tried it again in the cartridges and it worked great. Lots of power, very similar to black powder. So I guess the lesson is to not get in too big a hurry to test your powder?

I did modify my grinding technique. I had tried previously to make pucks with this stuff. That wasn't much fun, the puck stuck in the die and when I went to break it up it crumbled. But what did work well was keep stirring it after it's cooked, so you end up with maybe 1/4 inch clumps. Looks like Grape Nuts cereal. Then run that through my grain grinder like I do for black powder, and it comes out nicely granulated. It could be screened at that point, but I haven't done that yet.

It looks like we're really on to something here with this stuff, a viable black powder substitute that is easy to make and not terribly expensive at about $5/lb.

Talvez você esteja usando um fogo muito alto. Um fogo mais baixo, a partir do momento que a água seca, para que a polimerização aconteça mais devagar, talvez seja uma resposta. Um fogo alto pode proteger o GP, mas ainda esconder alguma umidade? Eu não consigo ver vantagem no uso do carvão. Nobade, achei muito estranho você ter um projeto preso.

[MUSTANG]

Now I am really thinking that this stuff needs time to age. I ran the latest batch that didn't work in the 32 rifle in the dehydrator all night. I shot some this morning in my 1860 Army revolver. It worked, but not any better then the powder without the charcoal. Then for grins I tried some of my original GP that I made once I figured out how to make it turn yellow. The last time I tried it, it was pretty weak. Today it was at least and maybe even more powerful than the crimson powders. It has been sitting out exposed to the air, no special treatment other than sitting for about a month. I am going to let the other batches age for a while and see if they change as well. There may be some sort of reaction going on slowly, over time here.

The other cool thing was I fired five cylinder fulls, so 30 rounds, with no lube at all and there was no foul out in the barrel and the cylinder still turned easily. I'll probably add a little lube next time, but this is some amazingly clean shooting powder.

Generally; what was the humidity during the 30 days you mentioned?

[Nobade]

Generally; what was the humidity during the 30 days you mentioned?

Pretty high. Winter in west virginia, so near 100% in the mornings down to maybe 50% during the day.

[Nobade]

Talvez você esteja usando um fogo muito alto. Um fogo mais baixo, a partir do momento que a água seca, para que a polimerização aconteça mais devagar, talvez seja uma resposta. Um fogo alto pode proteger o GP, mas ainda esconder alguma umidade? Eu não consigo ver vantagem no uso do carvão. Nobade, achei muito estranho você ter um projeto preso.

Sandro,
Too much heat is possible. I do lower it as soon as the water is gone, but will try making it even lower to see what happens. And I agree, the charcoal doesn't seem to help but I am going to let this batch sit for a while and test it later to see how it does. There are so many variables here to play with, it's fun to make one change at a time and see what happens.

Sandro Muito calor é possível. Eu baixei assim que a água acabar, mas vou tentar torná-la ainda mais baixa para ver o que acontece. E eu concordo, o carvão não parece ajudar, mas vou deixar esse lote descansar por um tempo e testá-lo mais tarde para ver como ele faz. Há tantas variáveis aqui para brincar, é divertido fazer uma mudança de cada vez e ver o que acontece.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I made my first batch of crimson the other day. I did add my pigments after the first hint of yellow since I have a good feel of how long it takes after that. I found that if you leave a little bit of the white stuff on the side you can watch that change color while your main batch is cooking.

The GP turned hard as a rock very quickly. The CP didn't do that. Even 24 hours later it's not totally hard. Because I'm impatient I tried to grind it and it gummed up my grinder badly. I had to cook it off to clean it. It will flash, a little quicker than my GP but not as fast as BP.

I'll give it another day and see if it gets more solid.

I made a batch of old reliable screened corn starch powder and it's still not totally hard either. I think the humidity is high. We had a very warm day yesterday in Michigan 60F today it's about 38F.

[barrabruce]

I thought I would take apart a couple of 30-30 cases I loaded with GP.
I had filled to top then tapped on bench top 10x then filled to the top again and seated a pp’Ed bullet.

The powder is compacted hard and felt like a solid compressed flour.
Scraped out it was all very fine sandy powder as it came from my coffee wizzo /bango grinder.

I couldn’t get the other bullets out without damaging them so I thought I will shoot them as they are.

Hopefully I haven’t made a potential bomb out of this.
Thoughts???

The little bit of left over fine powder I mixed with a few drops of hot water and mixed with a wire bent into loop.
This I added and stirred in until it looks like fluffy biscuit crumbs.

It’s been set aside to dry hopefully.

Temps are in the low 30c degrees and 66-95% humidity.
See how that works.
My powder ends up very hard chunks if I use a mortar and pestle, and turns into a very fine sand like clay powder.

Anyhoo I will age this and see if it works better before I go and put iron in it.

Cheers

[deces]

Following.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Today I did some burn tests with my Crimson using the Super Sneaky Steve method of combining the pigments late in the game. My carbon wasn't ball milled because if I have to do that what's the point right? My GP and CP were both dehydrated for a few hours before grinding. The CP needed this step to not gum up the grinder. After dehydrating it went crunch and made good powder.

The CP burns much faster than the GP. GP burns like Pyrodex in air, not impressive but I'm hoping it shoots good. The CP is more of a pain to make so I don't think there's much motivation for me to make it other than testing.

I've got 65 grain batches by weight ready to go for my rifle test. Same weight for each powder.

The CP is was comparable to my not quite super dry screened willow. My pucked and corned Balsa was scary fast, but also a pain to make because I can only make 1/4lb in each harbor freight drum because of the fluffiness.

Video coming soon.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

https://youtu.be/CMTMno1rUMY?si=246pAJJv-GrvzcbQ

Burn test, GP vs CP vs BP.

[Lostinidaho]

Super Sneaky Steve Watching your video right now.

Good Videos

[Nobade]

Your Super Sneaky videos are great! Thanks for making those, it's good to see someone else is getting similar results to what I see here. I had to laugh at the end, I did the same thing with my first batch of GP - burned the whole thing in one shot and smoked up the whole little community I live in. It looked like a fog bank had settled on us as there was zero wind and humidity was up around 100%.

[dverna]

I thought I would take apart a couple of 30-30 cases I loaded with GP.
I had filled to top then tapped on bench top 10x then filled to the top again and seated a pp’Ed bullet.

The powder is compacted hard and felt like a solid compressed flour.
Scraped out it was all very fine sandy powder as it came from my coffee wizzo /bango grinder.

I couldn’t get the other bullets out without damaging them so I thought I will shoot them as they are.

Hopefully I haven’t made a potential bomb out of this.
Thoughts???

The little bit of left over fine powder I mixed with a few drops of hot water and mixed with a wire bent into loop.
This I added and stirred in until it looks like fluffy biscuit crumbs.

It’s been set aside to dry hopefully.

Temps are in the low 30c degrees and 66-95% humidity.
See how that works.
My powder ends up very hard chunks if I use a mortar and pestle, and turns into a very fine sand like clay powder.

Anyhoo I will age this and see if it works better before I go and put iron in it.

Cheers

I would not shoot those. There was a test done years ago when people were using a filler (IIRC grits or cornmeal) over smokeless powder. As the rounds aged, the filler solidified and when pressure tested the rounds had a very significant increase in pressure. This was in .45 LC cases IIRC.

If I was playing with something like this I would use a Mossin and a long string. There are too many unknowns at this point wrt to how this powder "ages" and reacts to humidity.

[perotter]

I mostly agree, in muzzle loaders there is no problem with increasing the dose/charge. In cartridges there might not be room for more powder. 5 percent nitrocellulose would be where I would start and no don't use it in black powder guns.

Repeat do not put any powder containing nitrocellulose in a black powder gun.

Where to get nitrocellulose, smokeless powder is the obvious source. A little would go a long way, just like duplexing only simpler.

Tim

Buckhorn 209 is a nitrocellulose based powder that is for blackpowder guns. Seems to sell and work well. The sds lists that it is 83% NC. What I don't know is what percent N the nitrocellulose is. 11.2%? 12.4%?

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/2022-blackhorn-209-sds/

[perotter]

What is the advantage of this powder over the tried and true KNO3 and table sugar? Cost is about $3 a pound.

[Sandro_ventania]

https://youtu.be/CMTMno1rUMY?si=246pAJJv-GrvzcbQ

Burn test, GP vs CP vs BP.

My Golden powder burns as fast as your Crimson powder. I find this very curious... perhaps because my ascorbic acid is technical level (100% pure) and I purify my nitrate.

[Sandro_ventania]

What is the advantage of this powder over the tried and true KNO3 and table sugar? Cost is about $3 a pound.

I've never put knsu in a gun, but from outdoor burn tests, it burned very slow. We have a friend here who uses chlorate with sugar, so it's much better.

[Sandro_ventania]

I would not shoot those. There was a test done years ago when people were using a filler (IIRC grits or cornmeal) over smokeless powder. As the rounds aged, the filler solidified and when pressure tested the rounds had a very significant increase in pressure. This was in .45 LC cases IIRC.

If I was playing with something like this I would use a Mossin and a long string. There are too many unknowns at this point wrt to how this powder "ages" and reacts to humidity.

I've had GP in storage for 1 year... and it's still good, just darker.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Buckhorn 209 is a nitrocellulose based powder that is for blackpowder guns. Seems to sell and work well. The sds lists that it is 83% NC. What I don't know is what percent N the nitrocellulose is. 11.2%? 12.4%?

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/2022-blackhorn-209-sds/

That stuff is the most expensive powder you can buy. $80/lb retail but people were paying $180/lb on ebay to run their super fancy high end in-lines for hunting season. If we could make that cheap it would be a game changer, but I doubt it. I think it's extruded. I do have a metal frosting dispenser that I intended to try and make extruded pellets with.

[Sandro_ventania]

That stuff is the most expensive powder you can buy. $80/lb retail but people were paying $180/lb on ebay to run their super fancy high end in-lines for hunting season. If we could make that cheap it would be a game changer, but I doubt it. I think it's extruded. I do have a metal frosting dispenser that I intended to try and make extruded pellets with.

But what's the point? Are we still talking about muzzleloaders? Well, if we are, I believe that a 500-grain projectile at 1700 feet/sec can take down even the bison in America! Is nitrocellulose really that important? To make your special powder cheaper, take 30% smokeless powder, dissolve it in acetone, it will turn into gelatin, add 70% GP or CP very finely and pass the mass through your extruder. When the acetone dries, it's ready...work the load as if it were smokeless and move up as needed.

[barrabruce]

I pulled the compacted fine G.P. powder out of my 30-30 cases.
Scraped them out.
Since I never clean my cases there are remainders of many firings left.
I mixed the lot up in a little water to make it clump up a little.
Let it dry and mixed in the rest of my golden powder.
It looks more like "burning dirt" with a little sand mixed in.
Cases were filled to the top then dry wrapped pp’ed bullets seated.
I did wrap both ways with and against the rifling.
Patched to fill the fired case as is.
Trying to keep it all simple as it should be.
See what happens next range trip.
323344
Keep up the good work.
Next thing you know I’ll have a muzzle loader or sum such black powder shooting thing.
Ha

[Sandro_ventania]

I pulled the compacted fine G.P. powder out of my 30-30 cases.
Scraped them out.
Since I never clean my cases there are remainders of many firings left.
I mixed the lot up in a little water to make it clump up a little.
Let it dry and mixed in the rest of my golden powder.
It looks more like "burning dirt" with a little sand mixed in.
Cases were filled to the top then dry wrapped pp’ed bullets seated.
I did wrap both ways with and against the rifling.
Patched to fill the fired case as is.
Trying to keep it all simple as it should be.
See what happens next range trip.
323344
Keep up the good work.
Next thing you know I’ll have a muzzle loader or sum such black powder shooting thing.
Ha

Be sure to tell us the results of shooting the 30-30 loaded with GP. Your powder is really a mixed salad. Whatever the result, I think it could improve with a more carefully cooked powder.

[dverna]

I pulled the compacted fine G.P. powder out of my 30-30 cases.
Scraped them out.
Since I never clean my cases there are remainders of many firings left.
I mixed the lot up in a little water to make it clump up a little.
Let it dry and mixed in the rest of my golden powder.
It looks more like "burning dirt" with a little sand mixed in.
Cases were filled to the top then dry wrapped pp’ed bullets seated.
I did wrap both ways with and against the rifling.
Patched to fill the fired case as is.
Trying to keep it all simple as it should be.
See what happens next range trip.
323344
Keep up the good work.
Next thing you know I’ll have a muzzle loader or sum such black powder shooting thing.
Ha

IMO you made the right decision not to fire those rounds. The reward was minimal even if the risk was minimal. Experimentation on the "cutting edge" can cause bleeding.

Folks storing ammunition with an experimental powder for more than a few weeks would be wise to pull a bullet from a round before using that lot of reloads. Making a dozen rounds and inspecting one a month seems prudent. Something small like a .223 would not require much powder.

The other approach is to produce five rounds with compacted powder and have them tested. But I cannot find a lab that does that kind or work. HP White used to do it IIRC but they are no longer in business.

[perotter]

I've never put knsu in a gun, but from outdoor burn tests, it burned very slow. We have a friend here who uses chlorate with sugar, so it's much better.

I've only used regular knsu powder in cartridge guns. Burn rate is about percent in a full sized rifle, about 15 fps slower than listed fps for original bp loads. A friend of mine used it in his muzzle loader and it worked fine in inline ones but didn't fire reliably in conventional rifles.

So can I assume that golden powder works well in both types of fine in both types of muzzle loaders?

I've never been big on muzzle loaders, but did buy my first a couple of weeks ago. Was thinking of converting it to a side slapper so that knsu works, but I don't rule out making a different powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

IMO you made the right decision not to fire those rounds. The reward was minimal even if the risk was minimal. Experimentation on the "cutting edge" can cause bleeding.

Folks storing ammunition with an experimental powder for more than a few weeks would be wise to pull a bullet from a round before using that lot of reloads. Making a dozen rounds and inspecting one a month seems prudent. Something small like a .223 would not require much powder.

The other approach is to produce five rounds with compacted powder and have them tested. But I cannot find a lab that does that kind or work. HP White used to do it IIRC but they are no longer in business.

DVerna, Golden powder is not a new thing as many may think. Many companies make or have made GP and sold it under other names. As I remember now the powder APP (America Pioneer Powder) is GP. There are others too. Here it was just explained how it is done... and how easy it is for everyone to do it. See this website.

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/faq.html

[Sandro_ventania]

I've only used regular knsu powder in cartridge guns. Burn rate is about percent in a full sized rifle, about 15 fps slower than listed fps for original bp loads. A friend of mine used it in his muzzle loader and it worked fine in inline ones but didn't fire reliably in conventional rifles.

So can I assume that golden powder works well in both types of fine in both types of muzzle loaders?

I've never been big on muzzle loaders, but did buy my first a couple of weeks ago. Was thinking of converting it to a side slapper so that knsu works, but I don't rule out making a different powder.

certainly the GP has easier ignition than the knsu. Crimson powder is even better, I believe it even works on flint. Doing some research, I discovered that using manganese dioxide instead of iron oxide increases the power of the powder by 30%. I don't have access, so I can't test... whoever has access, here's a tip.

[deces]

Has anyone tried extruding it into stick powder with something like this?

323362

[LAGS]

I have used one of those to make my BP.
I ran the damp powder thru that tool.
Then when it dried out , I crushed it up a bit and then screened it for the sizes I needed.
But right out of that ricer it made great Cannon Powder.

[owejia]

certainly the GP has easier ignition than the knsu. Crimson powder is even better, I believe it even works on flint. Doing some research, I discovered that using manganese dioxide instead of iron oxide increases the power of the powder by 30%. I don't have access, so I can't test... whoever has access, here's a tip.

This manganese dioxide is available from Amazon, 99% pure regants grade/fine pwder for $32.99/ 1 lb bottle. What is the percentage of the mix in the GP?

[dverna]

DVerna, Golden powder is not a new thing as many may think. Many companies make or have made GP and sold it under other names. As I remember now the powder APP (America Pioneer Powder) is GP. There are others too. Here it was just explained how it is done... and how easy it is for everyone to do it. See this website.

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/faq.html

Thanks for posting that information. My concern was the compaction barrabruce saw in those .30/30 loads. That is a red flag for me. If that is normal and not a safety issue, I gave bad advice. My only experience is with smokeless powder so I may be overly cautious.

[barrabruce]

Hey Don thank-you for speaking up saving my skin if it is right /wrong.

I know 5/8ths of **** all about black powder.
The people I mostly know who have used it I wouldn’t take their advice.
There is one fella who knows heaps and has a collection of Fine shooting fusels and is a bit of a legend in these parts, but I may only see him once or twice a year now.

All good this end.
No harm done..
Bruce

[Nobade]

I don't think the fine compacted powder would bother anything in a 30-30, based on what I saw. I loaded mine completely to the top and crushed it with a bullet and every one worked fine. Accuracy was good, primers didn't show any pressure signs and extraction was easy. I don't think this powder can generate pressures as high as a full black powder load, and certainly nowhere near a regular smokeless load. It seems quite safe in cartridge firearms that give you limited case capacity. I do wish I still had my 416 Taylor, I would like to try it in a bigger rifle but 45-70 is as big as I have any more.

[dverna]

Bruce,

This is what raised the red flag:

"The powder is compacted hard and felt like a solid compressed flour."

Being ignorant about this type of propellent and a "Safety Nazi", I erred on the side of caution.

I do not even shoot BP so know nothing about how a compressed charge should look. With smokeless, the powder is still a powder and not compacted into a hard/solid mass.

I am following this thread as I find stuff like this interesting. I have no need to make a propellent, but it would be valuable skill if/when things go south. A bit like remanufacturing primers. Not worth my time if I can buy what I need. But what if that changes?

[MUSTANG]

Has anyone tried extruding it into stick powder with something like this?

323362

I tried this one; I was unsuccessful 1st try. Powder was too dry. Will need a powder that is at correct dough consistency to use.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKRSL1R8?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

[Sandro_ventania]

This manganese dioxide is available from Amazon, 99% pure regants grade/fine pwder for $32.99/ 1 lb bottle. What is the percentage of the mix in the GP?

It would be used instead of iron oxide. Use 5% of the total... future tests will be able to tell if you need less or more, but 5% is good to start with. Please, if you test, let us know the result.

[Sandro_ventania]

Bruce,

This is what raised the red flag:

"The powder is compacted hard and felt like a solid compressed flour."

Being ignorant about this type of propellent and a "Safety Nazi", I erred on the side of caution.

I do not even shoot BP so know nothing about how a compressed charge should look. With smokeless, the powder is still a powder and not compacted into a hard/solid mass.

I am following this thread as I find stuff like this interesting. I have no need to make a propellent, but it would be valuable skill if/when things go south. A bit like remanufacturing primers. Not worth my time if I can buy what I need. But what if that changes?

Friend DVerna, be very careful, it's never wrong!! We are all experimenters and as my grandmother used to say..."caution and chicken broth never hurt anyone!". And regarding the need to do GP or BP, I believe that few here have this need... Most do it because they like knowing that they are capable of doing it! He does it because he likes to try something different from what is on the store shelf. The fun is good, join in!

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Has anyone tried extruding it into stick powder with something like this?

323362

When I make my rice starch screened powder it's pretty hard to thumb it through a regular screen. Something like this would help a lot.

[perotter]

Friend DVerna, be very careful, it's never wrong!! We are all experimenters and as my grandmother used to say..."caution and chicken broth never hurt anyone!". And regarding the need to do GP or BP, I believe that few here have this need... Most do it because they like knowing that they are capable of doing it! He does it because he likes to try something different from what is on the store shelf. The fun is good, join in!

Yup. That's how it's been for me. Done it for over 50 years just so that I know I'll have something available to use to shoot.

Also learn how to do it if/when an emergency happens and run the risk of throwing caution to the wind.

[Abert Rim]

Quite an interesting thread, gentlemen. Thank you for all your posts.

[barrabruce]

Well I did get plumes of smoke and it was very difficult to see any signs of the patch in flight.

Dry wrapped and lubeless seemed to be a bummer. Even with wiping between shots.
There was a bit of tipping also.

Velocity unknown, some wild vertical spreads and group as a whole about 4" with lots of outliners.

Still an outcome thou!

Think I’ll try another batch and see, but fill the holes of the bore with lube before I shoot again and lube the bullets.

I wonder if it will bump bullets up and try patching to bore to see if that works.

Anyway all fun.
Did I say I had heaps of smoke and the wind changed to 12 o clock and I was engulfed by it.

Ha.
I don’t want to make black powder as I would have to have more equipment and stuff.
But stove top powder seems fine.
Maybe I will get some iron oxide and make some pink.

I’m wondering about the starch powder now and how that performs.

[barrabruce]

I just remembered today.
I had a couple of rounds that,through the white plume of smoke was a "whizzer" or two.
I believe they could have been bigger and harder golden powder chunks that maybe were on the top of the charge and left a thin trail of white smoke rotating and spiraling off at a tangent.
I suppose one could load for the effect after all the other is sorted out.
Cheers

[Nobade]

I have seen a lot of that as well, it probably doesn't help your ballistics but does provide a nice visual effect.

[Sandro_ventania]

I just remembered today.
I had a couple of rounds that,through the white plume of smoke was a "whizzer" or two.
I believe they could have been bigger and harder golden powder chunks that maybe were on the top of the charge and left a thin trail of white smoke rotating and spiraling off at a tangent.
I suppose one could load for the effect after all the other is sorted out.
Cheers
I believe using a 4F or 5F grit is the best choice. especially if you are using a pistol.

[deces]

Has anyone come across a pucking system with turnkey prices?

[Nobade]

I tried to press this stuff into pucks and was not impressed. It does not behave like black powder. As mentioned, you could possibly add a binder but I'm happy with just running it through my grain grinder to granulate it.

[Sandro_ventania]

I tried to press this stuff into pucks and was not impressed. It does not behave like black powder. As mentioned, you could possibly add a binder but I'm happy with just running it through my grain grinder to granulate it.

When the GP hardens, I think it stays in its most compacted form, pressing I don't think it will increase the density. I'm still going to try making pellets (with a hole or more in the middle) maybe for those who are going to load cartridges this would be the best way. For a muzzleloader, powder is good and uncomplicated.

[MUSTANG]

Well I did my 1st cooking attempt on the Golden Powder - Looks more like Outhouse Residue Powder; it was pretty smelly too.

322889

It never turned "Golden". It cooked like a bad batch of Brownies. Seemed to Immediately go to Brown then Black. Gummy and would not come off the Spatula.

After it cooled; I managed to scrape much of it off bottom of the old Stainless Steel fry pan I cooked it in using a 4 inch putty knife. Did same with the Spatula. Cleaning up the pan may be a challenge - starting with filling the pan with water and letting the spatula and pan sit overnight. I am going to let the residue I scraped out sit a few days then crush and screen through a Kitchen Strainer to get smaller particles. I have Low Expectations on this.

Above was from my Post #118 of this thread. (Click on the Attachment in the above box for the picture of the mix cooked in the pan. I scraped all of the mix out of the pan; and then I crushed this mixture and screened it through a large mesh Kitchen Strainer after it set for a couple of days (Not sure of the mesh size - but perhaps twice the opening size of a 20 Mesh Screen).

I loaded five .308 Winchester rounds with 33 Grains of this "Golden Powder". Used CCI #34 Large Rifle Primers, and a NOE 311041 powder coated boolit sized to .310 and an aluminum 0.014" thick gas check. Rifle was a Remington 700 Heavy Barrel with a Scope set at 10X. Shot them at the range today with following results:

(a) Each shot there was a white vapor/smoke cloud that obscured the target as seen through the scope for 3 to 5 seconds after the shot.
(b) Visually Inspected barrel after each shot, there were 4 to 5 black granules in the barrel each time.
(c) Slight carbon on neck of 4 of 5 cases; one had heavy carbon on the neck.
(d) Shot all 5 rounds while using LabRadar Chronograph - But only one registered on the Chronograph. It showed a velocity of 2541 feet per second. Velocity was higher than I anticipated. Given lack of rounds registering; I'll chronograph these again downstream.
(e) recoil and "feel" of each shot was relatively same; so it seemed to be consistent.
(f) and finally; the 100 Yard Group was 4 inches. The bull is a 1 and 1/4 spot paster. See group below:

323686

The 311041 has not performed well in this Rifle compared to other boolits. I was more interested in seeing how the Golden Powder (despite being "Burned") performed. The 311041's were all leftovers in a container on the reloading bench I wanted to use up.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Above was from my Post #118 of this thread. (Click on the Attachment in the above box for the picture of the mix cooked in the pan. I scraped all of the mix out of the pan; and then I crushed this mixture and screened it through a large mesh Kitchen Strainer after it set for a couple of days (Not sure of the mesh size - but perhaps twice the opening size of a 20 Mesh Screen).

I loaded five .308 Winchester rounds with 33 Grains of this "Golden Powder". Used CCI #34 Large Rifle Primers, and a NOE 311041 powder coated boolit sized to .310 and an aluminum 0.014" thick gas check. Rifle was a Remington 700 Heavy Barrel with a Scope set at 10X. Shot them at the range today with following results:

(a) Each shot there was a white vapor/smoke cloud that obscured the target as seen through the scope for 3 to 5 seconds after the shot.
(b) Visually Inspected barrel after each shot, there were 4 to 5 black granules in the barrel each time.
(c) Slight carbon on neck of 4 of 5 cases; one had heavy carbon on the neck.
(d) Shot all 5 rounds while using LabRadar Chronograph - But only one registered on the Chronograph. It showed a velocity of 2541 feet per second. Velocity was higher than I anticipated. Given lack of rounds registering; I'll chronograph these again downstream.
(e) recoil and "feel" of each shot was relatively same; so it seemed to be consistent.
(f) and finally; the 100 Yard Group was 4 inches. The bull is a 1 and 1/4 spot paster. See group below:

The 311041 has not performed well in this Rifle compared to other boolits. I was more interested in seeing how the Golden Powder (despite being "Burned") performed. The 311041's were all leftovers in a container on the reloading bench I wanted to use up.

Wow, that's some really good performance! Especially that velocity. I highly doubt you could get that with real BP.

[barrabruce]

Mustang
Should I recook my powder more then I wonder.
You have at least obtained military accuracy std.

[Sandro_ventania]

Above was from my Post #118 of this thread. (Click on the Attachment in the above box for the picture of the mix cooked in the pan. I scraped all of the mix out of the pan; and then I crushed this mixture and screened it through a large mesh Kitchen Strainer after it set for a couple of days (Not sure of the mesh size - but perhaps twice the opening size of a 20 Mesh Screen).

I loaded five .308 Winchester rounds with 33 Grains of this "Golden Powder". Used CCI #34 Large Rifle Primers, and a NOE 311041 powder coated boolit sized to .310 and an aluminum 0.014" thick gas check. Rifle was a Remington 700 Heavy Barrel with a Scope set at 10X. Shot them at the range today with following results:

(a) Each shot there was a white vapor/smoke cloud that obscured the target as seen through the scope for 3 to 5 seconds after the shot.
(b) Visually Inspected barrel after each shot, there were 4 to 5 black granules in the barrel each time.
(c) Slight carbon on neck of 4 of 5 cases; one had heavy carbon on the neck.
(d) Shot all 5 rounds while using LabRadar Chronograph - But only one registered on the Chronograph. It showed a velocity of 2541 feet per second. Velocity was higher than I anticipated. Given lack of rounds registering; I'll chronograph these again downstream.
(e) recoil and "feel" of each shot was relatively same; so it seemed to be consistent.
(f) and finally; the 100 Yard Group was 4 inches. The bull is a 1 and 1/4 spot paster. See group below:

323686

The 311041 has not performed well in this Rifle compared to other boolits. I was more interested in seeing how the Golden Powder (despite being "Burned") performed. The 311041's were all leftovers in a container on the reloading bench I wanted to use up.


but why did you only use 33 grains? I believe that the .308 case holds much more! I would fill it to the brim! And frankly... I don't think that speed is real... I believe the chronograph marked it wrong... I don't think even 33 grains of smokeless gunpowder would give that speed. It's just a guess.

[MUSTANG]

Answer to previous comments is "I don't Know".

As previously indicated; I want to try again at a later date. May shoot another test over the ProChronoDLX Chronograph I have on the shelf and do same again for the LabRadar Chronograph. Current Winter conditions with Snow, Fog, cloud cover, etc... are not conducive to Light Screen Chronographs - but then again I only got one of 5 rounds to register with the LabRadar unit.

My thoughts are (based on the feel for each shot); the burn rate may be a slow build - giving the feel of a more moderate push in the shoulder instead of a Rapid slam for bullet weight and recorded velocity. I am also contemplating going from the 311041 at a 182 Grain weight to a RCBS 200 Silhouette Powder Coated Boolit with a nominal weight of 200 grains. Interestingly; that would put the RCBS 200 Sil at about the same weight as a .490 ball for my 50 Hawken and although different firearms; might give some interesting comparisons over time.

As for cooking Golden Powder more - unknown. I simply was being Cheap (Frugal) and giving the powder I cooked a try instead of simply throwing it out when it looked like I had spoiled it. We still have 6 to 8 8 weeks of Winter and Snow looking at us based on history here in NorthWest Montana so there will be time to think, contemplate, and mix up another batch or two of Golden Powder (Other Smokeless Powders I have been researching also); but good days for the range may or may not be as plentiful for a bit.

As to 33 Grains selected - two fold:

(a) 33 Grains is what I have been using as a load in other testing I have been doing for DIY Smokeless Powder. See my thread at https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464423-DIY-Smokeless-Powder-No-7-Smokeless-Powder-Manufacturing&highlight=

(b) When I ground the heavily cooked Golden Powder; I did so in very rough grains as described previously. 33 Grains was just about at the neck of the .308 Case with the Granularity of the Powder I produced. This allowed the Cast Boolit with Gas check to be seated with the Boolit base about even with the bottom of the neck; and not compress the Powder.

One of the tenants of the Scientific Process as taught to me In Grade School quite some decades ago was multiple testing to ensure repeatability - as well as ability for others to replicate similar results with the same testing regimen.


I remember back in the late 1960's or early 1970's the TV News being awash with news on a couple of Scientists claiming that they had achieved COLD FUSION; but the stories died out and the Scientists were discredited when no one else could replicate their results.

[RJTyler]

Hi Folks,

I hope that I a doing this post correctly, first time.

I have been following this golden powder thread and have cooked up several small batches just to get a feel for the process. I have been using the 63/37 percent ratio of potassium nitrate to ascorbic acid. After undercooking the first batch I pushed the cook time a little farther and results have been tanish in color and relatively easy to crush into granules that are about 3F in size. I haven't yet loaded it into cartridges however open-air flash tests put the burn speed fairly close to my screened homemade BP.

A while back a question was asked about substituting citric acid for ascorbic acid so I figured that I would give that combination a try. The first batch at 63/37 cooked to a light yellow and then appeared to stop changing color. I pushed it a bit farther. more than seemed necessary for the GP, and I probably chickened out too soon. The result remained very plastic at room temperature therefore pretty much impossible to crush into granules. The small pile of smallest pieces burned relatively slowly.

I tried a 75/25 mixture for the next batch, still ended up with a plastic end result even though I felt that I pushed it even harder. Open burn test was slow and the residue seems to indicate excess PN. Would make a heck of a smoke grenade however.

The next attempt was a 65/35 mixture. I decided that I was going to push the cooking to the limit so positioned myself at the mouth of the garage (still drizzly in this neck of the woods) so that I could eject the mixture if the process got out of hand. I kept it on the heat until it turned light brown (darker than tan). I was just thinking that I had pushed it hard enough when the mass went from flat to beginning to puff up like a baking powder biscuit in the oven. It also began ejecting white vapor. I move the pan outside and made ready to toss it however the reaction finally subsided. During this event there was no flame or incandescence nor did the batch burn up. The end result was medium brown and crushable with a mortar and pestle. I have done one open flash burn and it was slower than the GP or BP but relatively fast compared to the previous citric acid batches. I will certainly have to try some of this in a cartridge.

These few small batches using citric acid really don't prove much except that citric acid may be a viable alternative to ascorbic acid. i will continue to mess around with this in an effort to refine a processing technique and optimum ratios. I also intend to try various percentages of ascorbic and citric acid mixtures. The plastic nature of some of the citric acid mixture may be useful in the formation of "designer" grains, who knows.

Just thought I would share what I know at this point, which isn't much, but it is more than I knew before. It's all fun!

[Nobade]

Welcome RJTyler! It looks like you'll fit in well around here. It will certainly be interesting to see where the citric acid mix goes. Thank you for your contribution.

[dverna]

Yes, welcome RJ

Good first post!!

[Sandro_ventania]

Answer to previous comments is "I don't Know".

As previously indicated; I want to try again at a later date. May shoot another test over the ProChronoDLX Chronograph I have on the shelf and do same again for the LabRadar Chronograph. Current Winter conditions with Snow, Fog, cloud cover, etc... are not conducive to Light Screen Chronographs - but then again I only got one of 5 rounds to register with the LabRadar unit.

My thoughts are (based on the feel for each shot); the burn rate may be a slow build - giving the feel of a more moderate push in the shoulder instead of a Rapid slam for bullet weight and recorded velocity. I am also contemplating going from the 311041 at a 182 Grain weight to a RCBS 200 Silhouette Powder Coated Boolit with a nominal weight of 200 grains. Interestingly; that would put the RCBS 200 Sil at about the same weight as a .490 ball for my 50 Hawken and although different firearms; might give some interesting comparisons over time.

As for cooking Golden Powder more - unknown. I simply was being Cheap (Frugal) and giving the powder I cooked a try instead of simply throwing it out when it looked like I had spoiled it. We still have 6 to 8 8 weeks of Winter and Snow looking at us based on history here in NorthWest Montana so there will be time to think, contemplate, and mix up another batch or two of Golden Powder (Other Smokeless Powders I have been researching also); but good days for the range may or may not be as plentiful for a bit.

As to 33 Grains selected - two fold:

(a) 33 Grains is what I have been using as a load in other testing I have been doing for DIY Smokeless Powder. See my thread at https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?464423-DIY-Smokeless-Powder-No-7-Smokeless-Powder-Manufacturing&highlight=

(b) When I ground the heavily cooked Golden Powder; I did so in very rough grains as described previously. 33 Grains was just about at the neck of the .308 Case with the Granularity of the Powder I produced. This allowed the Cast Boolit with Gas check to be seated with the Boolit base about even with the bottom of the neck; and not compress the Powder.

One of the tenants of the Scientific Process as taught to me In Grade School quite some decades ago was multiple testing to ensure repeatability - as well as ability for others to replicate similar results with the same testing regimen.


I remember back in the late 1960's or early 1970's the TV News being awash with news on a couple of Scientists claiming that they had achieved COLD FUSION; but the stories died out and the Scientists were discredited when no one else could replicate their results.

Mustang, you're right, the scientific process says you have to change one variable at a time to be able to measure results faithfully. That being said, I think you should also keep the weight of the bullets the same as well.

[Sandro_ventania]

Hi Folks,

I hope that I a doing this post correctly, first time.

I have been following this golden powder thread and have cooked up several small batches just to get a feel for the process. I have been using the 63/37 percent ratio of potassium nitrate to ascorbic acid. After undercooking the first batch I pushed the cook time a little farther and results have been tanish in color and relatively easy to crush into granules that are about 3F in size. I haven't yet loaded it into cartridges however open-air flash tests put the burn speed fairly close to my screened homemade BP.

A while back a question was asked about substituting citric acid for ascorbic acid so I figured that I would give that combination a try. The first batch at 63/37 cooked to a light yellow and then appeared to stop changing color. I pushed it a bit farther. more than seemed necessary for the GP, and I probably chickened out too soon. The result remained very plastic at room temperature therefore pretty much impossible to crush into granules. The small pile of smallest pieces burned relatively slowly.

I tried a 75/25 mixture for the next batch, still ended up with a plastic end result even though I felt that I pushed it even harder. Open burn test was slow and the residue seems to indicate excess PN. Would make a heck of a smoke grenade however.

The next attempt was a 65/35 mixture. I decided that I was going to push the cooking to the limit so positioned myself at the mouth of the garage (still drizzly in this neck of the woods) so that I could eject the mixture if the process got out of hand. I kept it on the heat until it turned light brown (darker than tan). I was just thinking that I had pushed it hard enough when the mass went from flat to beginning to puff up like a baking powder biscuit in the oven. It also began ejecting white vapor. I move the pan outside and made ready to toss it however the reaction finally subsided. During this event there was no flame or incandescence nor did the batch burn up. The end result was medium brown and crushable with a mortar and pestle. I have done one open flash burn and it was slower than the GP or BP but relatively fast compared to the previous citric acid batches. I will certainly have to try some of this in a cartridge.

These few small batches using citric acid really don't prove much except that citric acid may be a viable alternative to ascorbic acid. i will continue to mess around with this in an effort to refine a processing technique and optimum ratios. I also intend to try various percentages of ascorbic and citric acid mixtures. The plastic nature of some of the citric acid mixture may be useful in the formation of "designer" grains, who knows.

Just thought I would share what I know at this point, which isn't much, but it is more than I knew before. It's all fun!

Welcome RJ! For the first post, you arrived very well! Congratulations!! As soon as possible, show us grouping and speed tests. And thank you very much for doing the test with citric acid, sometimes the free burning speed is slow, but in the weapon it can be different and the amount of gases can be higher, increasing the speed of the projectile.

[Sandro_ventania]

Guys, I want to share an experience I had. I ground some match heads, which contain approximately 35% chlorate, and mixed the powder with the GP in the proportions of 75GP - 25% phosphorus and 70% GP - 30% phosphorus. Using a .36 underhammer patch and ball gun, with 6 grains of load. These were the results: GP = 420 feet/sec. GP-25= 531 ft/sec. GP-30= 633 ft/sec. Furthermore, I observed an even cleaner burn. Those who have access to pure chlorate have a good option. I repeat, I simply mixed the powders, I didn't cook them together, I don't know at what temperature cooking chlorate is safe, but the dry mixture gave a great result.

[2TM101]

I just took all of my golden powder, mixed in all of my BP fines and 5F powder (for about 15% of the total) and started pucking it like regular BP. It DOES, and surprisingly well. Even seems to take about the same amount of compression. Resulting powder mix was slate grey and pucks are grey with black flecks in them. I'm guessing the flecks are the 5F powder I threw in because I had no other use for it.

[Nobade]

I just took all of my golden powder, mixed in all of my BP fines and 5F powder (for about 15% of the total) and started pucking it like regular BP. It DOES, and surprisingly well. Even seems to take about the same amount of compression. Resulting powder mix was slate grey and pucks are grey with black flecks in them. I'm guessing the flecks are the 5F powder I threw in because I had no other use for it.

It's interesting that you got that result. I admittedly didn't add any black powder to my GP but when I tried pucking it, it stuck to the die and was very difficult to remove then when I broke up the puck it pretty much just crumbled and returned back to powder like it started.

[ofitg]

I have read that the sulfur in BP becomes colloidal (ie, fluid) at "pucking" pressures and fills in voids between the charcoal and saltpeter particles, cementing them together.

[HamGunner]

It's interesting that you got that result. I admittedly didn't add any black powder to my GP but when I tried pucking it, it stuck to the die and was very difficult to remove then when I broke up the puck it pretty much just crumbled and returned back to powder like it started.

I have not messed with compressing any Golden Powder(60% Potassium Nitrate/40% Ascorbic Acid), but only cooking and grinding and screening. The granules remained fairly hard, but I had to set my grinder to a coarser setting to prevent making extra fines, so it must be a bit softer than corned Black Powder.

I have milled up, compressed, ground, and screened a small batch each of Crimson Powder (64.3% Potassium Nitrate/32.1% Ascorbic Acid/1.8% Red Iron Oxide/1.8% Charcoal) and what I am calling Gray Powder (61% Potassium Nitrate/31% Ascorbic Acid/5% Manganese Dioxide/3% Charcoal). The Gray Powder turned out a very light colored Gray.

Apparently the Ascorbic Acid mixtures makes the compressed pucks want to stick to the compression die. Both wanted to stick to my compression die and took a bit more pressure to press the pucks out of the die itself. I had to use steel wool to get the stainless steel compression die clean before oiling and putting away.

Both powders compressed, ground up, and screened about like Black Powder. I will eventually get some velocity comparison tests fired when I get the time, comparing Goex, my TP Black, Crimson, Gray, and I suppose Golden. Something to play with just for fun. I will take a digital scale with me and actually weigh out the charges so that perhaps it will give a little better scientific comparison rather than just using volume measure.

[Sandro_ventania]

I have not messed with compressing any Golden Powder(60% Potassium Nitrate/40% Ascorbic Acid), but only cooking and grinding and screening. The granules remained fairly hard, but I had to set my grinder to a coarser setting to prevent making extra fines, so it must be a bit softer than corned Black Powder.

I have milled up, compressed, ground, and screened a small batch each of Crimson Powder (64.3% Potassium Nitrate/32.1% Ascorbic Acid/1.8% Red Iron Oxide/1.8% Charcoal) and what I am calling Gray Powder (61% Potassium Nitrate/31% Ascorbic Acid/5% Manganese Dioxide/3% Charcoal). The Gray Powder turned out a very light colored Gray.

Apparently the Ascorbic Acid mixtures makes the compressed pucks want to stick to the compression die. Both wanted to stick to my compression die and took a bit more pressure to press the pucks out of the die itself. I had to use steel wool to get the stainless steel compression die clean before oiling and putting away.

Both powders compressed, ground up, and screened about like Black Powder. I will eventually get some velocity comparison tests fired when I get the time, comparing Goex, my TP Black, Crimson, Gray, and I suppose Golden. Something to play with just for fun. I will take a digital scale with me and actually weigh out the charges so that perhaps it will give a little better scientific comparison rather than just using volume measure.

Very curious to know how the gray powder will behave. You could make a batch of crimson powder by just swapping the iron oxide for manganese dioxide. To find out if manganese dioxide is a better catalyst than iron oxide. Be cautious when testing, always use a low load at the beginning.

[Nobade]

I just finished a test of the three powders I had made - regular golden powder, crimson powder, and crimson plus charcoal. I used the same five cartridge cases for each test, in the TC Contender 22 Hornet. Bullet was the Ranch Dog 50.

First was the powder with charcoal. One good shot and four much weaker shots, accuracy was nonexistent. Next was the crimson powder. Three good shots and two weak. Much better accuracy but still not impressive. Next was the several months old golden powder. Five powerful shots, all better than any of the others. Accuracy was normal for this gun, a dime size group at 25 yards without even trying. This is about on the level power wise as black powder, and much easier to deal with since there is no fouling buildup. It's starting to approach 22 magnum power levels and would be quite useful.

The crimson powder still flashes faster than the golden powder but in guns it is very much inferior. The charcoal powder is useless. I guess I will stick to the simpler golden powder, especially since it is much easier to make. Anybody else try them back to back yet?

I need to go back to the 45 acp and see if the older golden powder will cycle the action now.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I have a 45 cal muzzle loader test lined up for Monday. I weighed 65grains of GP CP and BP to be tested back to back with a Lee 459-500-3R Boolit. My best boolit for this gun. Since muzzle loaders have no limit on how much powder you can stuff in there I think it would benefit from a weaker but still useful powder like GP. Managing fouling is the part of muzzleloading that I like the least so I hope it works well.