My homemade Golden powder!

[Nobade]

Looking forward to the results!

[Sandro_ventania]

I just finished a test of the three powders I had made - regular golden powder, crimson powder, and crimson plus charcoal. I used the same five cartridge cases for each test, in the TC Contender 22 Hornet. Bullet was the Ranch Dog 50.

First was the powder with charcoal. One good shot and four much weaker shots, accuracy was nonexistent. Next was the crimson powder. Three good shots and two weak. Much better accuracy but still not impressive. Next was the several months old golden powder. Five powerful shots, all better than any of the others. Accuracy was normal for this gun, a dime size group at 25 yards without even trying. This is about on the level power wise as black powder, and much easier to deal with since there is no fouling buildup. It's starting to approach 22 magnum power levels and would be quite useful.

The crimson powder still flashes faster than the golden powder but in guns it is very much inferior. The charcoal powder is useless. I guess I will stick to the simpler golden powder, especially since it is much easier to make. Anybody else try them back to back yet?

I need to go back to the 45 acp and see if the older golden powder will cycle the action now.

The result is quite interesting. I would bet crimson would be best! Did you fill the case? I like this caliber, I wanted a gun in it.

[2TM101]

I just took all of my golden powder, mixed in all of my BP fines and 5F powder (for about 15% of the total) and started pucking it like regular BP. It DOES, and surprisingly well. Even seems to take about the same amount of compression. Resulting powder mix was slate grey and pucks are grey with black flecks in them. I'm guessing the flecks are the 5F powder I threw in because I had no other use for it.

For comparison, here is the original 85% golden 15% BP fines mix, and the pucks made the first go around. When ground into powder I got about 50% usable and 50% fines, which I re pucked as you see in the second picture. Much more even grey color.

I DID have the die stick a few times when I first started doing this, then I noticed a layer of...... Seasoning? over the interior of the die. Once that formed it no longer not only did not stick, but when I picked it up the plunger part actually fell out a few times.

I have not tried to puck pure golden powder. I had fines left over from before the whole GP thing started and I just threw them in, so I do not know how much of a difference it makes. I'm also using a Chinese 6 ton press that is now leaking so the pressure is another variable.
323794323795

[Nobade]

The result is quite interesting. I would bet crimson would be best! Did you fill the case? I like this caliber, I wanted a gun in it.

I would have thought that too. The charge was simply to fill the case to the top and seat a bullet. I like the Hornet too, but unfortunately cartridge cases are all but impossible to get any more. I load the remaining ones I have to low pressure in an effort to make them last as long as possible.

[barrabruce]

Nobade how have you stored your GP over the 3 mths?
Open to air in humid conditions?
I’m finding this interesting
I think I’ll knock up another batch.
You using 60/40 or 65/35?
I used to put things on top of my old water heater and it kept things dry and warm.
But the new one must have better insulation and is not warm at all.
I know Airconditioning will suck the moisture out at well as our fridge.
I may keep an open jar in the fridge.
I wonder if just heating it up a little in the fry pan would drive off the water and freshen it up some.
How did/do the black powder shooters cope with the hot wet tropics?
Lots to learn about this smoky stuff.

[Nobade]

Nobade how have you stored your GP over the 3 mths?
Open to air in humid conditions?
I’m finding this interesting
I think I’ll knock up another batch.
You using 60/40 or 65/35?
I used to put things on top of my old water heater and it kept things dry and warm.
But the new one must have better insulation and is not warm at all.
I know Airconditioning will suck the moisture out at well as our fridge.
I may keep an open jar in the fridge.
I wonder if just heating it up a little in the fry pan would drive off the water and freshen it up some.
How did/do the black powder shooters cope with the hot wet tropics?
Lots to learn about this smoky stuff.

I'm keeping it in Tupperware containers on my loading bench, which is currently fairly cool and humid. I have been intrigued at how it seems to get more powerful over time, I made a batch of regular GP (60-40) last night. I flash tested some, and it's kind of slow. I'm going to let it age for a while and keep testing to see what happens. But so far it all works better after it has been allowed to sit as opposed to being a fresh batch.

[Sandro_ventania]

I'm keeping it in Tupperware containers on my loading bench, which is currently fairly cool and humid. I have been intrigued at how it seems to get more powerful over time, I made a batch of regular GP (60-40) last night. I flash tested some, and it's kind of slow. I'm going to let it age for a while and keep testing to see what happens. But so far it all works better after it has been allowed to sit as opposed to being a fresh batch.

I have a batch that is over a year old. I'm going to chronograph it and compare it to a new batch. Time has made it darker, this really indicates an ongoing process, we will see what this indicates.

[Nobade]

I have a batch that is over a year old. I'm going to chronograph it and compare it to a new batch. Time has made it darker, this really indicates an ongoing process, we will see what this indicates.

That will be very interesting! I'm glad you have some that old to test.

[Sandro_ventania]

That will be very interesting! I'm glad you have some that old to test.

Nobade, I took some shots today, they were few, but it already indicates that your observation is correct. Using 6 grains of GP, a few weeks' batch speed of 415fps. The batch with more than a year the speed was 450fps. The saved powder absorbed some moisture and had to be dried by placing it in a pan at a temperature of 60 degrees. As noted, the powder only gets darker and absorbs moisture, but it does not degrade, simply drying to remove the moisture it has absorbed. as Nobade observed, it seems to even improve. As the batches are not very standardized, we cannot yet say.

https://i.ibb.co/4SRnNMk/IMG-20240226-123730542.jpg (https://ibb.co/ykFcs52)

[Super Sneaky Steve]

As promised here's my Super Test!
https://youtu.be/1irzH27Ix0A?si=HzD0d0WlzgmfRbRz

All charges were 65gr by weight and the Lee 459-500-3R Boolit with an unlubed wood wad under it. Distance was 50 Yards. Rifle was the CVA Accura in 45 Cal.

Here's the numbers:

GP 588 (cold bore), 666: Avg 621 Gouping 3"

CP 918, 904, 898: Avg 906 Grouping "One Hole"

Balsa Corned 1097, 1120, 1034: Avg 1083 Grouping 2.5" Vertical String

Weeping Willow Screened w/SGRS 877, 917, 897: Avg 897 Grouping "One Hole"

In short, the Crimson perfectly matched my old stand by Screened Willow with Rice Starch binder 3%. The GP fell short. Seeing how screened powder isn't that much harder to make than Crimson I don't have much use for it, but it's still nice to know it works and it works really well. Keep in mind, for my Crimson I added the Iron and Carbon after there was color change, and I did not mill my carbon. It simply went through the meat grinder once.

[Sandro_ventania]

As promised here's my Super Test!
https://youtu.be/1irzH27Ix0A?si=HzD0d0WlzgmfRbRz

All charges were 65gr by weight and the Lee 459-500-3R Boolit with an unlubed wood wad under it. Distance was 50 Yards. Rifle was the CVA Accura in 45 Cal.

Here's the numbers:

GP 588 (cold bore), 666: Avg 621 Gouping 3"

CP 918, 904, 898: Avg 906 Grouping "One Hole"

Balsa Corned 1097, 1120, 1034: Avg 1083 Grouping 2.5" Vertical String

Weeping Willow Screened w/SGRS 877, 917, 897: Avg 897 Grouping "One Hole"

In short, the Crimson perfectly matched my old stand by Screened Willow with Rice Starch binder 3%. The GP fell short. Seeing how screened powder isn't that much harder to make than Crimson I don't have much use for it, but it's still nice to know it works and it works really well. Keep in mind, for my Crimson I added the Iron and Carbon after there was color change, and I did not mill my carbon. It simply went through the meat grinder once.

Thanks for testing, the video was really good! I'm intrigued by the GP, because mine is very similar to the BP, yours was much lower. The crimson powder showed off by making just one hole, but I don't understand why you mixed charcoal in it...without the charcoal maybe it would be better and cleaner. You say that the GP was the bet because of the advantages. but it still is, as long as you adjust the load until you get to the speed you want. Producing a powder that exceeds the BP is easy, just add 10% of a product "X" that I won't say the name of, as I was told that I could be sued if someone overdoes the load... (as if I were responsible because of other people's stupidity and ignorance...ha ha ha!)... Let's go with the experiments, because it's a lot of fun!

[barrabruce]

Good stuff there Sandro.
It looks like time will tell. The more mature stuff looks more finely ground.

SSSteve good video. Thanks.

[2TM101]

The crimson powder showed off by making just one hole, but I don't understand why you mixed charcoal in it...without the charcoal maybe it would be better and cleaner. Charcoal and Iron Oxide are components of Crimson Powder. Granted less than 2% each, but that is what makes it different from Golden.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

If I could make GP that was 10% off I would use it, but mine was more like 50% off. There's so many undefined factors as to what exact temperature, how much water and how much cook time, that it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is wrong or how to fix it in a repeatable way.

[Nobade]

If I could make GP that was 10% off I would use it, but mine was more like 50% off. There's so many undefined factors as to what exact temperature, how much water and how much cook time, that it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is wrong or how to fix it in a repeatable way.

Thanks for making the video. It's good to see others playing with this stuff. I wouldn't write that golden powder off quite yet. Hang onto it for a while and try it again in 6 months or so to see if it has improved. This phenomenon of it changing power over time is kind of perplexing, I don't think it is from changes in moisture but something is certainly happening. Initially my crimson powder was the best but recently the GP was by far. I have a new batch of GP I made this weekend, and I'm going to let it sit for a bit and see what happens. Also as I hear it, the commercial APP experiences something similar. I wonder what they do at the factory to minimize that.

[Sandro_ventania]

If I could make GP that was 10% off I would use it, but mine was more like 50% off. There's so many undefined factors as to what exact temperature, how much water and how much cook time, that it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is wrong or how to fix it in a repeatable way.
What is the purity level of the components? I recrystallize my potassium nitrate to purify it and my ascorbic acid is 99% guaranteed. My GP is lighter than his, I cook it over low heat, so it takes longer to cook and I remove it when it changes from white to light yellow. And I repeat, my GP is practically as good as my BP. I do BP just for the challenge, as GP works well for me. When your GP makes vooppp like the BP, you got the recipe right. try varying the proportions a little.

[Sandro_ventania]

Charcoal and Iron Oxide are components of Crimson Powder. Granted less than 2% each, but that is what makes it different from Golden.
The crimson powder that I know does not contain charcoal, only 5% iron oxide. I think I got some manganese dioxide... I'll test it to see if it really is better than iron oxide. Too bad it's not pure manganese dioxide.

[Sandro_ventania]

I tested manganese dioxide, but perhaps because it wasn't pure the result was disappointing, I wasn't able to test the powder, because the powder wasn't hard, it was a bit rubbery.

[2TM101]

If I could make GP that was 10% off I would use it, but mine was more like 50% off. There's so many undefined factors as to what exact temperature, how much water and how much cook time, that it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is wrong or how to fix it in a repeatable way.

Crimson powder is about 10% off, and I now use it in all of my CAS loads. I can go through a whole match without having to clean. For me Golden Powder has two uses, with Inline rifles where I am using a patched ball, and in smoothbore guns where I am firing clay balls. But I can use smaller amounts of other powders for the same effect, so it does not justify making it again.

Those tiny amounts of Charcoal and Iron Oxide, only 1.8% each, make a tremendous difference. After seeing and reading all that's been done on the subject, Golden Powder is mainly for training you to make Crimson Powder. And you can still use what you made while you were learning, provided you have a gun where you can just put more in.

[2TM101]

The crimson powder that I know does not contain charcoal, only 5% iron oxide. I think I got some manganese dioxide... I'll test it to see if it really is better than iron oxide. Too bad it's not pure manganese dioxide.

These are the formulas I use. In both cases you can use just the first two components (with an adjusted mix) and get a 1/3 reduction in power, but still a usable powder. But there is no reason to willingly do that if you have all of them.

Black Powder
74.6 Potassium Nitrate
13.5 Charcoal
11.9 Sulphur

Crimson Powder
64.3 Potassium Nitrate
32.1 Ascorbic Acid
1.8 Red Iron Oxide
1.8 Charcoal

[Nobade]

You mean Ascorbic acid, right? Vinegar wouldn't work too well.

[HamGunner]

I chrongraphed my three different mixtures of alternative powders today, along with Goex and my recent TP(Toilet Paper) powder. I cooked the Golden, but milled and pressed (corned) the others.

Golden (60%-40% Potassium Nitrate-Ascorbic Acid) had Very Good accuracy, even though it had a wide spread in velocity and slow velocity at that. I am not sure what to make of it just yet. Golden is much lighter than any of the others and the 22 gr. completely filled the chambers of my revolver cylinder, so that is why I used 22 gr. for these tests. Golden compacts into a fairly solid chunk when compressed, but seems to burn very clean. It has much less smoke than any of the others tested.

Crimson 64.3% Potassium Nitrate,32.1% Ascorbic Acid,1.8% Iron Oxide, and 1.8% charcoal) although faster than Golden, was also a bit slow with a fair amount of velocity spread, but was somewhat less bulky than Golden. It was also clean burning and gave what I will call just Good accuracy.

My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy.

My TP charcoal black 75% Potassium Nitrate, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur was very strong and gave high velocity, but the charge was just too much for good accuracy. It gave a more scattered pattern rather than a decent group. I would say it only had Less than Fair accuracy. I did fire a final cylinder full of the TP powder after all the other tests were completed and I reduced the charge to 20 gr. This gave Extra Very Good accuracy and the velocity spread was much better. It performed right about the same as 22 gr. of Goex as far as velocity and deviation, although the Goex only gave Good accuracy.

I also fired a cylinder full of mixed up powder just for the fun of it. It was a mixture of 25% each of my TP, Golden, Crimson, and the Gray. Although the velocity was up there, it had a very wide Velocity Spread. It only gave Fair accuracy.

All tests were six shots each @20 yards. Charges were 3F size and weighed 22 gr. on a digital scale. Fired with Rem. #10 caps and fired in my Pietta 1851 Navy .36 cal. under an 82 gr. .380 ball. My very last cylinder full of my second try using my TP powder I used a reduced load of only 20 gr. This lesser load shot really swell and that has mostly been my go-to load in this revolver with my home made Black and I had already found a happy spot for it. So, even though I gave the accuracy that I got with 22 gr. of each of the powders, a load work up of each powder might give us quite a surprise.

Golden delivered an average of 515 fps., ES 187 fps., and SD 65 fps. Accuracy Very Good. All in a decent group with no flyers. 2 1/2" group.

Crimson delivered an average 772 fps, ES 106, and SD 43 fps. Accuracy 4" group.

Gray delivered an average 851 fps., ES 83 fps., and SD 31 fps. Accuracy 3 1/2" group.

Goex delivered an average 841 fps., ES 63 fps., and SD 23 fps. Accuracy 3" group.

TP Black gave an average 949 fps., ES 67 fps., and SD 27 fps. Accuracy less than Fair. Scattered with flyers.

TP Black with 20 gr. load ave. 830 fps., ES 58 fps,. and SD 25 fps. Accuracy Extra Very Good. Three in one hole and the others nearly touching. 1 1/2" group.

Mixture was ave. 823 fps., ES 132 fps., SD 46. Only Fair accuracy. Scattered 6" group.

Although accuracy was not the best for many of the tested powders, I am sure that one could reduce or increase the pressure levels until accuracy could be found for each type of powder, just as with my TP, which I had already tested extensively.

It was a really nice Feb. day for shooting with a high of 82 degrees, but windy. Unusual weather for Missouri.

Edit: Nipple removal required a bit of extra torque, but the rest of the revolver cleaned up easily. Perhaps a bit easier than normal. There was for sure less crud in the bore.

[LAGS]

This is great info.
I am still wondering how all these powders will do in muzzleloading rifles and single shot pistols.
Plus maybe flintlocks vs percussion rifles.
I am not trying to find a powder that will out perform my Homemade powder .
But just ones that might be good to go to in ML rifles if they maybe burn cleaner or more consistent.
I don’t shoot C&B pistols any more , nor I do not intend on loading cases with these style powders , unless we can not get Smokeless powder in the future.
But I want to thank all you guys that are doing these types of powders and the ones doing the testing.

[HamGunner]

While most of these (alternative) powders that I tested today seemed to smoke less and appeared to be cleaner burning, I did notice when cleaning my revolver this evening, that I had to put extra torque on the nipples to get them to break loose, even though I always put anti-seize grease on the threads. The chambers of the cylinder and the bore appeared to need about the normal cleaning procedure.

I am just playing with this stuff, but I do believe that I am very happy with my home made Black. I was doing quite well with Sassafras, but the TP seems even better. But who knows, might find a good use for some of this (alternative) powder someday.

[LAGS]

There are Tons of powder making options and mixes we can try.
One thing I would like to try is to make the cooked CIA powder.
Then grind it and press it into pucks to then corn it. That might also increase the density.
That is something I would post in the BP thread.
But I have seen comments in this thread about Corning some of these powders.

[Sandro_ventania]

I'm very happy to see everyone trying the powders! I just wanted to record that the option of using Golden powder and/or Crimson powder is not intended to be a more potent powder than Black powder, but to be another option with different characteristics, such as being cleaner and easily made in the home stove, without the need for a ball mill, a press, selecting and cooking wood to make charcoal, etc. For those who need a more powerful powder, it will be necessary to add part of a more powerful oxidizer. For muzzle loaders, the quantity is not a problem, if to equal a charge of 50 grains of BP I need to use 70 of GP, I still consider the GP more advantageous, as it is much easier to make, it is cleaner and less corrosive.

[deces]

What book are you fellows getting these alternative powder recipes from?

[2TM101]

You mean Ascorbic acid, right? Vinegar wouldn't work too well.

My error. I don't know how I go the name wrong like that, the acid I listed does in fact not even exist. So at least I don't have to worry about anyone following that formula.

[2TM101]

What book are you fellows getting these alternative powder recipes from?

Its mostly from sites that are for fireworks makers. There are dozens of chemical formulas, most of which are not adaptable to guns as they are very corrosive and/or literally explosives and not propellants. Only a select few are adaptable to firearms use. These sites are for projectiles fired from an iron tube you clean with a wire brush which then intentionally explode, so corrosion is not a concern.

I've come to the conclusion that only the four component Crimson Powder is of any use. The two component Golden Powder and the two component White Powder (Corn Starch) work, but are too weak to be used in anything other than single shot muzzleloaders where you can double the charge to make up for it. But if you are still curious, most of the data is here:

https://pyrosource.fandom.com/wiki/Pyro_Source_Wiki

[MUSTANG]

There was some question over the life of this thread as to the potential of the Golden Powder to attack the brass when used in Centerfire Ammunition; or ..... I test fired my last batch about two weeks ago (Post #233 and #237) and because I was off on other Winter Reloading efforts I let the cases sit for the last two weeks - unclaimed and untouched.

The cases I use for "Initial Experimenting" tend to be mixtures of case head stamps. I tend to sort head stamps into lots of 20 so they can be aggregated, boxed up, and used for "Same Case" load development or reloaded and boxed for long tern storage. The odd-ball cases get relegated to the rough experimenting role where consistency to foster accuracy is not the immediate goal.

This morning I retrieved them and looked at the inside of the necks:

324083
click on picture to enlarge

The case necks and insides are coated with what I initially thought was corrosion of the brass; but is actually a layer of crud from the Powder Ignition. This extends to the internal case walls - not just the necks. If one enlarges the picture and looks closely; a the lifting and curling of the crud coating edges can be seen on a couple of the inside necks in the picture.

Not sure what if anything this means (Other than cleaning of the Brass cases is required inside and out); but thought it might be of interest to some.

[HWooldridge]

Looks like more of a residue instead of corrosion. Would be interesting to see whether you can soak or boil the cases and remove it.

[Sandro_ventania]

Looking at the image, it looks like it is peeling, which indicates that it is just residue coming off and not corrosion. Try removing some when dry and removing others by washing.

[2TM101]

My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy.

Never heard of this one - seems to be the best. My observations so far:

My "Golden" powder was slate grey. Other than appearance, it performed same as yours.
My "Crimson" powder looks almost indistinguishable from used coffee grounds. Have not used it yet but figure it will also perform the same as yours.

I have some plastic test tubes I bought on Amazon because they cost about 10% what official charge tubes cost. They hold about 5 grams of powder. I have determined a a rough equivalency formula of

40gr BP = 50gr CP = 80 gr GP when used in a single shot 45 cal caplock pistol, but in mine with a 10" barrel the GP took up about a third of it. However I got better groups than the people on either side of me at the range today, both of which were cops. And my gun does not have sights on it.

Crimson powder is fast to make, takes little equipment and is no mess compared to Black. There is no dust. In fact when grading my Crimson powder out that I made to day NOTHING went through the 60 mesh screen.

#10 screen 5%
#20 screen 20%
#40 screen 5%
#60 screen 70% and its granules, not dust. Pours fine.

I WILL try that grey powder.

[dondiego]

There was some question over the life of this thread as to the potential of the Golden Powder to attack the brass when used in Centerfire Ammunition; or ..... I test fired my last batch about two weeks ago (Post #233 and #237) and because I was off on other Winter Reloading efforts I let the cases sit for the last two weeks - unclaimed and untouched.

The cases I use for "Initial Experimenting" tend to be mixtures of case head stamps. I tend to sort head stamps into lots of 20 so they can be aggregated, boxed up, and used for "Same Case" load development or reloaded and boxed for long tern storage. The odd-ball cases get relegated to the rough experimenting role where consistency to foster accuracy is not the immediate goal.

This morning I retrieved them and looked at the inside of the necks:

324083
click on picture to enlarge

The case necks and insides are coated with what I initially thought was corrosion of the brass; but is actually a layer of crud from the Powder Ignition. This extends to the internal case walls - not just the necks. If one enlarges the picture and looks closely; a the lifting and curling of the crud coating edges can be seen on a couple of the inside necks in the picture.

Not sure what if anything this means (Other than cleaning of the Brass cases is required inside and out); but thought it might be of interest to some.

As with Black Powder, you want to immerse the casings in water shortly after firing. Leave a brass case sit after firing BP in it and it will do same or worse. We are dealing with corrosive acids and salts.

[Hellgate]

If you let those fired cases sit long enough with some humidity or moisture you will start seeing the blue/green verdigris(?) formin that indicates corrosion. Just toss them in some water when you get home, rinse and repeat a couple times till the water runs clean and not slippery. Dry & reuse. If you use nickeled brass the corrosion is pretty minimal and cleanup is even easier.

[HamGunner]

I WILL try that grey powder.

Note: I milled, pucked, and screened (corned) this powder rather than cooking on the stove. Would be interesting to see if it works as well by cooking.

[2TM101]

Note: I milled, pucked, and screened (corned) this powder rather than cooking on the stove. Would be interesting to see if it works as well by cooking.

I have never seen this "Grey" formula before and as I am unfamiliar with what manganese Dioxide does when heated I would probably make it the same way. I was ball milling and pressing Black Powder years before all these Fireworks formulas just spontaneously appeared.

I made a bunch of powder consisting of mostly GP fines with some BP fines mixed in and pucked that, I put pictures here. I since figured out you can take your GP fines and dissolve them in more water just like a new mix. But after THAT, I learned just today that Crimson Powder makes no dust OR fines. Nothing went through a 60 mesh screen, not even a little.

P.S. N6RVT but I'm only on VHF and that rarely these days. And yes, that's a vanity call as I happen to be an RVT

[2TM101]

Have you ever heard of white powder? It's stronger than the GP, it's just not as clean... I've seen it used in 9mm. The recipe is also simple. 65% potassium nitrate (perchlorate is even better) and 35% starch. Put the nitrate to melt in boiling water, just like GP, after the nitrate is completely dissolved, remove from the heat and add the starch, mixing vigorously. then spread it on plastic and let it dry. Once dry, just grind and use. SP is stronger because of its formula, C6H10O6 having 2 more hydrogen molecules (fuel) than ascorbic acid C6H8O6. If your starch isn't very fine, running it through a ball mill should help.

Back when all of this was starting I did get a bottle of Starch to try this, just have not done it yet. I'll probably make what I got and use it in top loaded duplex rounds to try and offset it not burning cleanly.

Jake recently discovered that when loading a duplex round, putting the black powder (or whatever we are using) in first and the smokeless on top works significantly better than putting the powder in the other way around. We aren't sure why just yet, but it does. It also burns way cleaner than straight BP.

In other news, I went to the range yesterday and fired about two dozen Golden Powder shots from my .45 caplock. At the end of the process it looked like I had fired *one* black powder shot. All the cleaning was around the nipple as I am using my own caps.

[Sandro_ventania]

I continue to search for a better catalyst than iron oxide. I'm trying a new oxide, if there's any progress I'll share it with you. The objective is to reach a powder equal to or superior to BP... to please the people who complain that they don't use CP because it is weaker than BP.

[RJTyler]

Hi Folks,

I had a little time yesterday and favorable weather (no rain and overcast skies work best for the Chrony) so I decided to load and shoot a few rounds with each of the powder iterations that have been accumulating in the storage containers. The test "launcher" is a Ruger GP100 .357, 4", stainless steel which is nice from a clean-up perspective.

All loads, unless noted otherwise, used 14 grains weight of powder topped with a cast lead 160 grain SWC lubricated with LBT Blue. Cases are random 38 Special. The 14 grain weight pretty much filled the case full to the mouth so all loads were compressed.

Chronograph is a Shooting Chrony at a distance of about 8 feet. I did not attempt to shoot any groups as these are only 3 shots with each type of powder.

Golden Powder (GP) PN/Ascorbic acid 63/37
358 fps
344 fps
320 fps
These shots all felt normal although with very light recoil.

A little off topic but the following are several iterations incorporating nitrocellulose as an additional propellent. in the below tests I wanted to incorporate NC to see what effect it would have in a modern cartridge and firearm. The nitrocellulose was added to the dry GP, or BP and then a small volume of acetone was added to make it a plastic mixture. This was screened and then dried. This actually makes very nice grains that are quite hard when dry. It should be noted that while I am comfortable with these combinations, with my experience, in my firearms I am in no way recommending these combinations or loads to anyone else.

GP 63/37 + 12% additional by weight of nitrocellulose (IMR 4064).
474 fps
503 fps
511 fps
These shots all felt normal with a little more recoil.

4064/BP 25/75
1001 fps
951 fps
945 fps
This is bumping into low end 357 magnum territory.

WC872/BP 75/25 WC872 is a very slow burning ball type propellent.
739 fps
728 fps
731 fps

As a control I also fired the following two normal loadings. These two loads were assembled in magnum length cases.

2.9 grains of Accurate #2 topped with a 148 grain lead wadcutter seated near flush with case mouth.
714 fps
711 fps
666 fps

5.9 grains of Herco topped with a cast lead 160 grain round nose flat point crimped in the crimp groove.
863 fps
875 fps
873 fps

Please take these results for no more than what they are. My batch sizes are very small (400 grains total per batch). Batch consistency will improve with time, size, and experimentation. I have a fairly extensive reloading, and black powder history so I am comfortable with those aspects.

I am experimenting with substituting citric acid for ascorbic acid and hope to report on that effort soon. Thus far a direct substitution of CA for AA is resulting in a plastic mixture that is difficult to harden to a "crunchable" state but I am making progress in that regard. I am beginning to incorporate the red iron oxide (Fe2O3) and intend to try the black iron oxide (Fe3O4) as well.

I am very impressed with the results that other members are achieving. I always looking forward to the next post.

Best regards, RT

[2TM101]

I continue to search for a better catalyst than iron oxide. I'm trying a new oxide, if there's any progress I'll share it with you. The objective is to reach a powder equal to or superior to BP... to please the people who complain that they don't use CP because it is weaker than BP.

Have you tried this:
My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy.

I tried making White Powder yesterday. Never again. With Crimson powder the frying pan was completely clean and the "dough" poured into a paper bowl hardened into a puck in a matter of hours. With White Powder I got a messy frying pan and jelly that a day later is still a jelly. It will eventually dry but that takes the speed advantage away. With Golden It also took a few days to set and dry. With Crimson though, not only is the powder a hard puck in a couple of hours, but it also grinds better with no dust and is also the most powerful powder of the three, meaning there is now no reason to try anything else again.

Except for this "Gray". When Amazon delivers my Manganese Dioxide I will be giving it a go.

Its on Amazon because apparently its used in making Pottery

[Sandro_ventania]

Have you tried this:
My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy.

I tried making White Powder yesterday. Never again. With Crimson powder the frying pan was completely clean and the "dough" poured into a paper bowl hardened into a puck in a matter of hours. With White Powder I got a messy frying pan and jelly that a day later is still a jelly. It will eventually dry but that takes the speed advantage away. With Golden It also took a few days to set and dry. With Crimson though, not only is the powder a hard puck in a couple of hours, but it also grinds better with no dust and is also the most powerful powder of the three, meaning there is now no reason to try anything else again.

Except for this "Gray". When Amazon delivers my Manganese Dioxide I will be giving it a go.

Its on Amazon because apparently its used in making Pottery

The powder with starch really takes a long time to dry, as it needs to evaporate the water... I spread a thin layer on a plastic sheet and place it in the sun or in the oven to dry. As for the golden powder, you said it takes hours to dry? I don't understand...because mine turns to stone as soon as it cools. Still in the pan, just turn off the stove and it starts to harden and while still hot it is already stone.

[Sandro_ventania]

Hi Folks,

I had a little time yesterday and favorable weather (no rain and overcast skies work best for the Chrony) so I decided to load and shoot a few rounds with each of the powder iterations that have been accumulating in the storage containers. The test "launcher" is a Ruger GP100 .357, 4", stainless steel which is nice from a clean-up perspective.

All loads, unless noted otherwise, used 14 grains weight of powder topped with a cast lead 160 grain SWC lubricated with LBT Blue. Cases are random 38 Special. The 14 grain weight pretty much filled the case full to the mouth so all loads were compressed.

Chronograph is a Shooting Chrony at a distance of about 8 feet. I did not attempt to shoot any groups as these are only 3 shots with each type of powder.

Golden Powder (GP) PN/Ascorbic acid 63/37
358 fps
344 fps
320 fps
These shots all felt normal although with very light recoil.

A little off topic but the following are several iterations incorporating nitrocellulose as an additional propellent. in the below tests I wanted to incorporate NC to see what effect it would have in a modern cartridge and firearm. The nitrocellulose was added to the dry GP, or BP and then a small volume of acetone was added to make it a plastic mixture. This was screened and then dried. This actually makes very nice grains that are quite hard when dry. It should be noted that while I am comfortable with these combinations, with my experience, in my firearms I am in no way recommending these combinations or loads to anyone else.

GP 63/37 + 12% additional by weight of nitrocellulose (IMR 4064).
474 fps
503 fps
511 fps
These shots all felt normal with a little more recoil.

4064/BP 25/75
1001 fps
951 fps
945 fps
This is bumping into low end 357 magnum territory.

WC872/BP 75/25 WC872 is a very slow burning ball type propellent.
739 fps
728 fps
731 fps

As a control I also fired the following two normal loadings. These two loads were assembled in magnum length cases.

2.9 grains of Accurate #2 topped with a 148 grain lead wadcutter seated near flush with case mouth.
714 fps
711 fps
666 fps

5.9 grains of Herco topped with a cast lead 160 grain round nose flat point crimped in the crimp groove.
863 fps
875 fps
873 fps

Please take these results for no more than what they are. My batch sizes are very small (400 grains total per batch). Batch consistency will improve with time, size, and experimentation. I have a fairly extensive reloading, and black powder history so I am comfortable with those aspects.

I am experimenting with substituting citric acid for ascorbic acid and hope to report on that effort soon. Thus far a direct substitution of CA for AA is resulting in a plastic mixture that is difficult to harden to a "crunchable" state but I am making progress in that regard. I am beginning to incorporate the red iron oxide (Fe2O3) and intend to try the black iron oxide (Fe3O4) as well.

I am very impressed with the results that other members are achieving. I always looking forward to the next post.

Best regards, RT
RJ... very good test! You missed doing 25/75 with the GP too, didn't you! So we can compare it to the 25/75 BP you used. Curious about the results with citric acid.

[RJTyler]

Sandro, I will make up a batch of GP and try the 25/75 mixture. It will be interesting to compare results.

I made up a batch of crimson powder using the 63/37 + 2% iron oxide mixture and loaded up three rounds of 38 Special using 14 grains under a 130 grain round nose flat point, powder coated bullet. The average velocity was 310 fps with an extreme spread of 92. That velocity is lower that I was expecting so I may have missed something. I am going to make another batch and try this again. The batch hardened well and crushed into grains well and flashed very well. We'll see what the repeat results look like.

I also made a crimson batch with a mixture of 63% potassium nitrate, 19% ascorbic acid, 18% citric acid, plus an additional 2% red iron oxide. After cooling the mixture was stiff but too pliable to fracture so I baked it in the oven at 170 degrees for about 8 hours to hardened it up enough to crush and screen. Using the same components and charge weight as listed above the average velocity was 461 fps with an ES of 89. The velocity seems low however with a charge weight of only 14 grains pushing a 130 grain bullet perhaps this is about right. As a control I loaded up three rounds using 14 grains of Curtis & Harvey 3F black powder under the same bullet. The average velocity was 474 fps with an ES of 34. With that result I see that the crimson powder as batched above is definitely in the same ballpark.

This evening I cooked up a batch of "crimson" powder using the 63/19/18 + 2% formula but substituted black iron oxide for the red iron oxide. The end result is black in color so I am not sure what to call it but will use "crimson" for now. The cooled mixture was still too plastic to crush so it is in the oven now and I will see how it does in the morning.

My intuition tells me that the citric acid will provide a fuel source equivalent to the ascorbic acid if I can figure out how to harden the cooked mixture to a crushable state. Allot of enjoyable experimenting remains.

Best regards,

RT

[indian joe]

Back when all of this was starting I did get a bottle of Starch to try this, just have not done it yet. I'll probably make what I got and use it in top loaded duplex rounds to try and offset it not burning cleanly.

Jake recently discovered that when loading a duplex round, putting the black powder (or whatever we are using) in first and the smokeless on top works significantly better than putting the powder in the other way around. We aren't sure why just yet, but it does. It also burns way cleaner than straight BP.

I load duplex with the smokeless on the primer and the blackpowder over - it burns way cleaner than straight blackpowder and I get single digit extreme spread without swabbing---you might do a little better - with it upside down - maybe - I doubt it - but "works significantly better" naah dont really think so ??? unless we have vastly different definition of significantly

In other news, I went to the range yesterday and fired about two dozen Golden Powder shots from my .45 caplock. At the end of the process it looked like I had fired *one* black powder shot. All the cleaning was around the nipple as I am using my own caps.......

[2TM101]

The powder with starch really takes a long time to dry, as it needs to evaporate the water... I spread a thin layer on a plastic sheet and place it in the sun or in the oven to dry. As for the golden powder, you said it takes hours to dry? I don't understand...because mine turns to stone as soon as it cools. Still in the pan, just turn off the stove and it starts to harden and while still hot it is already stone.

Considering that my Crimson powder did just that - its entirely possible that my first batch of Golden just had too much water in it, and I panicked and stopped while it was still too wet. It WAS my first batch. But still the Crimson seriously outperforms it with there only being a 3.6% difference in the formula. I have determined that at least for me the consistency of the "Dough" is a much better indicator of when it is done than the color change. So considering the huge gain from just adding tiny amounts of two other things, I see no reason to make Golden again.

I wish I had known that "White Powder" takes longer to make than Black Powder. Though granted with it being Starch it is the cheapest formula so far. Maybe I'll try processing it like BP and see if it pucks, though being Starch I anticipate it sticking in the die.

[2TM101]

...... Well that was cryptic.

Apparently putting the smokeless on top produces better results.See for Yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONup8G2vpgE). 100+ FPS gain is significant.

I do duplex rounds because using 85% of a powder I can make with only 15% of powder I have to buy, ship and pay a hazmat fee on is appealing to me. And with it being so clean I'm doing it with everything except semiautos now.

If you go to a gun range in LA County I am very easy to spot.

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro, I will make up a batch of GP and try the 25/75 mixture. It will be interesting to compare results.

I made up a batch of crimson powder using the 63/37 + 2% iron oxide mixture and loaded up three rounds of 38 Special using 14 grains under a 130 grain round nose flat point, powder coated bullet. The average velocity was 310 fps with an extreme spread of 92. That velocity is lower that I was expecting so I may have missed something. I am going to make another batch and try this again. The batch hardened well and crushed into grains well and flashed very well. We'll see what the repeat results look like.

I also made a crimson batch with a mixture of 63% potassium nitrate, 19% ascorbic acid, 18% citric acid, plus an additional 2% red iron oxide. After cooling the mixture was stiff but too pliable to fracture so I baked it in the oven at 170 degrees for about 8 hours to hardened it up enough to crush and screen. Using the same components and charge weight as listed above the average velocity was 461 fps with an ES of 89. The velocity seems low however with a charge weight of only 14 grains pushing a 130 grain bullet perhaps this is about right. As a control I loaded up three rounds using 14 grains of Curtis & Harvey 3F black powder under the same bullet. The average velocity was 474 fps with an ES of 34. With that result I see that the crimson powder as batched above is definitely in the same ballpark.

This evening I cooked up a batch of "crimson" powder using the 63/19/18 + 2% formula but substituted black iron oxide for the red iron oxide. The end result is black in color so I am not sure what to call it but will use "crimson" for now. The cooled mixture was still too plastic to crush so it is in the oven now and I will see how it does in the morning.

My intuition tells me that the citric acid will provide a fuel source equivalent to the ascorbic acid if I can figure out how to harden the cooked mixture to a crushable state. Allot of enjoyable experimenting remains.

Best regards,

RT

RJ, the formula I know for crimson powder is 60-40 for GP and add 5% iron oxide. In percentage I think it would be 57-38-5. You are only adding 2%, it may be too little to achieve the desired effect!

[Sandro_ventania]

Friends, I'm doing tests with copper oxide, the results are very promising! It remains to be compared with iron oxide to find out which is better. But I can already say that the result was very good! A ball launched at 400 fps with GP reached 500 fps using copper oxide.

[Nobade]

This gets more interesting every day!

[HWooldridge]

Well that was cryptic.

Apparently putting the smokeless on top produces better results.See for Yourself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONup8G2vpgE). 100+ FPS gain is significant.

I do duplex rounds because using 85% of a powder I can make with only 15% of powder I have to buy, ship and pay a hazmat fee on is appealing to me. And with it being so clean I'm doing it with everything except semiautos now.

If you go to a gun range in LA County I am very easy to spot.

He can answer for himself but I think Joe’s response was inside the quote box in blue text - at least that’s what I’m seeing on the old Ipad.

I would also want to see more tests in other calibers before deciding smokeless on top is necessarily better in every instance. I don’t care one way or the other but further testing would tend to yield more accurate conclusions.

The next question is why one is better than the other? I am speculating here but suspect the smokeless just under the projectile gives it one final bump before leaving the barrel. If we could plot a pressure graph, the ignition would show two peaks, with the second lower than the first but still enough for an extra oomph. The mixed powders obviously can’t achieve that, and neither can smokeless under the main charge, because it’s ignited first.

[Sandro_ventania]

Some artillery ammunition uses black powder as a starter for the main charge. The biggest buyers of black powder are the armed forces. Smokeless nitrocellulose gunpowder needs to be under pressure to work properly. burn it in the open air and see how slow it is. Only under pressure does it burn well and quickly. In my analysis, I believe that burning the black powder first, in addition to starting the nitrocellulose powder well, starts it at high pressure. So the use of it is better.

[2TM101]

What is the advantage of this powder over the tried and true KNO3 and table sugar? Cost is about $3 a pound.

I have been re-reading this entire thread now that I have some experience with this stuff and with that knowledge I'm now looking at this and wondering how it works. Sounds more like model rocket fuel but I have been reading some chemical compositions on here that would have sounded bizarre to me a couple of months ago.

I did make up some KN03 / Starch powder, but a day later it was still a jelly, so I put it outside in the sun and open air to dry.

Then it rained for 6 hours - so I won't be able to test that for awhile.

Potassium Nitrate and sugar sounds like it would leave behind some really bad residue. Have you actually tried this? How does it work?

[Sandro_ventania]

Today I made a batch with black iron oxide. I tested the same pattern, .36 underhammer pistol, patch and ball with just 6 grains. It looked like this...with an average GP of 413fps. GP+copper oxide 501fps. GP+ iron oxide (black) 564fps. Iron oxide is still gaining speed, but the powder made with it is very hygroscopic. Is yours like this? In a few hours it already changes its appearance by agglomerating, but as I said, I used black iron oxide which is Fe3o4, red iron oxide is Fe2o3 and the result may be different... with black it is impossible to use in humid weather . Powder with copper oxide burns very cleanly, cleaner than GP and perhaps by increasing the amount of it it will be equal to or better than iron oxide. It has a beautiful beige color resembling milk chocolate and is not hygroscopic. I liked using it. If you can't find copper oxide ready-made, it is easily made at home, just mix caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) with copper sulfate, there should be a video on YouTube showing it.

[indian joe]

He can answer for himself but I think Joe’s response was inside the quote box in blue text - at least that’s what I’m seeing on the old Ipad.

I would also want to see more tests in other calibers before deciding smokeless on top is necessarily better in every instance. I don’t care one way or the other but further testing would tend to yield more accurate conclusions.

The next question is why one is better than the other? I am speculating here but suspect the smokeless just under the projectile gives it one final bump before leaving the barrel. If we could plot a pressure graph, the ignition would show two peaks, with the second lower than the first but still enough for an extra oomph. The mixed powders obviously can’t achieve that, and neither can smokeless under the main charge, because it’s ignited first.

correct my answer was the blue
just watched the video
hes using wrong powder and/or reducing loads to prove his point
4227 is equal density to blackpowder his 45 + 9.3 load using the much more bulky A5744 has given away 17 grains (or more) of blackpowder !
even biullseye (which I would not use either) is less dense grains vs volume
so had he used that 4227 for his smokeless he would have had (at 7%) 7 grains smokeless + 64 grains of swiss and I bet he would have got his 100fps gain (thats what I have seen here with the chrono @10%smokless - right around 100fps gain - without doing the duplex load upside down - would you get 200fps with the 4227 on top ? dunno - not goin there)

[2TM101]

Note: I milled, pucked, and screened (corned) this powder rather than cooking on the stove. Would be interesting to see if it works as well by cooking.

I ball mill my stuff first just to make sure it is mixed evenly. Only needs about a half hour in that case.

With Crimson powder I got a LOT of 4F, maybe 50% of it, though no dust, and no fines. Probably because there is so little Charcoal. I have been using it like that and not trying to puck it into larger granules. Even with 5% Charcoal instead of 1.8% Grey will probably be the same.

I did try pucking the previously mentioned "White Powder". Don't even bother trying to make that stuff. It will NOT puck, even with 10,000 PSI it just crumbles back to dust right out of the die. And the stuff I made on the stove last week is STILL drying. I should have just used the starch to make Dextrin.

I'm still curious as to where the "Grey" powder formula came from, I don't have that in any reference. Out of all of these alternate non-black powders, it does seem to be the best formula.

[HamGunner]

I'm still curious as to where the "Grey" powder formula came from, I don't have that in any reference. Out of all of these alternate non-black powders, it does seem to be the best formula.

I think I altered the normal formula of what I called (Gray Powder) to where it performed better for me. The normal formula that I found was just to simply replace the Red Iron Oxide in the Crimson powder formula with Manganese Dioxide. My variation with increased amounts of both the Manganese Dioxide as well as the charcoal and corresponding decreases of the first two ingredients seemed to perform much better with increased velocity as well as less velocity spread. Slight tweaking of this further might prove even better, although I do think that any further increase of the Manganese Dioxide should be approached with caution. Perhaps even a slight decrease in the amount along with an increase of the charcoal could prove to give an improvement.

Note: I did mill and then corn this instead of cooking on the stove. The pucks were quite Gray, thus my name.

I searched a bit and did find this about the Manganese Dioxide. Both it and the Iron Oxide are used for similar formulas in various types of uses in fireworks.

"Description: Manganese Dioxide can be used as a catalyst in composite and whistling rocket propellant formulations. A thermite-like mixture can also be made with it. The manganese dioxide thermite burns more slowly than the iron oxide based mixture with a bright white glow."

"Hazards: Mangese Dioxide is poisonous and leaves brown stains on glassware etc. The stains can be removed with dilute hydrochloric acid (of course, only when the stained object is not attacked by the acid)."

For reference to my test results, go back a couple pages to posts #247 & #272.

[2TM101]

I think I altered the normal formula of what I called (Gray Powder) to where it performed better for me. The normal formula that I found was just to simply replace the Red Iron Oxide in the Crimson powder formula with Manganese Dioxide. My variation with increased amounts of both the Manganese Dioxide as well as the charcoal and corresponding decreases of the first two ingredients seemed to perform much better with increased velocity as well as less velocity spread. Slight tweaking of this further might prove even better, although I do think that any further increase of the Manganese Dioxide should be approached with caution. Perhaps even a slight decrease in the amount along with an increase of the charcoal could prove to give an improvement.


60 KNO3
30 Ascorbic
4 Manganese
6 Charcoal

I'll try this next batch as I finally did receive the Manganese Dioxide.

And for anyone considering White Powder - basically don't. 10 hours in a food dehydrator at max setting and this stuff STILL was not completely dry. But it was at least dry enough to grind and now I have it on a cookie sheet finishing its drying in the sun outside. But I'm done experimenting I think, Crimson powder works well for me, and this "Grey" variant seems to be the formula for all my non-black powder making in the future.

EDIT: Manganese Dioxide in Mineral form is called "Pyrolusite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolusite)". So now we have a better sounding and more official name for "Grey Powder"

[HamGunner]

60 KNO3
30 Ascorbic
4 Manganese
6 Charcoal. I'll try this next batch as I finally did receive the Manganese Dioxide.
But I'm done experimenting I think, Crimson powder works well for me, and this "Grey" variant seems to be the formula for all my non-black powder making in the future.

I bet that will be a decent batch. Do let us know how it turns out.

I still have plenty of the ingredients to play with, but like you, I am about done experimenting with alternative powders.

My TP BP is looking very good to me and it is not such a nasty chore to make the charcoal out of TP.

[Sandro_ventania]

60 KNO3
30 Ascorbic
4 Manganese
6 Charcoal

I'll try this next batch as I finally did receive the Manganese Dioxide.

And for anyone considering White Powder - basically don't. 10 hours in a food dehydrator at max setting and this stuff STILL was not completely dry. But it was at least dry enough to grind and now I have it on a cookie sheet finishing its drying in the sun outside. But I'm done experimenting I think, Crimson powder works well for me, and this "Grey" variant seems to be the formula for all my non-black powder making in the future.
It would be great if a comparative test was carried out between manganese dioxide and iron oxide. Only then will we know which works best. unfortunately I didn't get pure manganese dioxide. And definitely friends, no matter how best you have a recipe, never, ever stop trying!!! Only then can there be evolution!!

[2TM101]

Starch "white" powder -for people with lots of time but no money.

All told less than $4 a pound for the two ingredients. Just as powerful as any of the other substitutes but takes longer to make than anything else, including the entire ball mill & puck BP method.

Because it takes FOREVER to dry. even spread out over an entire cookie sheet and then moved to a ventilated screen once it cools. It forms a crust and then the inside holds all of the moisture. Even if you break it up into "cookies" and put it into a food dehydrator on max setting it takes days. And you HAVE to make sure its dry because if not it will clump up and give you false "dryballs". Well, I did try to use it like that.

In 50shots my caplock pistol behaved like i had put no powder into it at all no less than three times. I could tell from where the ramrod stopped that the powder was in there, especially with this bulky stuff. Multiple caps got no ignition. so when I took off the nipple and checked there was a big air gap in there. Even though the starch powder felt dry it was clumping and jamming before it got all the way in.

I have since truly fully dried this stuff and re-screened it. and it now works but this is WAY too much work for an inferior product. It is, however, very inexpensive.

[MUSTANG]

What velocity have you achieved with "White Powder" compared to velocities for Black Powder, and Golden Powder? I am interested to see actual velocities, impressions help but do not provide hard comparisons.

My concern is that in my life I have seen ammunition and reloading components go from fairly inexpensive and available at about any country store/hardware store/gas station etc... To being a "Specialty Item that has become expensive and one has to Shop around and "Buy When It's There". Ability to "Roll Your Own" and tailor to requirements is one reason I believe this and other threads on making powders is popular.

[Sandro_ventania]

Starch "white" powder -for people with lots of time but no money.

All told less than $4 a pound for the two ingredients. Just as powerful as any of the other substitutes but takes longer to make than anything else, including the entire ball mill & puck BP method.

Because it takes FOREVER to dry. even spread out over an entire cookie sheet and then moved to a ventilated screen once it cools. It forms a crust and then the inside holds all of the moisture. Even if you break it up into "cookies" and put it into a food dehydrator on max setting it takes days. And you HAVE to make sure its dry because if not it will clump up and give you false "dryballs". Well, I did try to use it like that.

In 50shots my caplock pistol behaved like i had put no powder into it at all no less than three times. I could tell from where the ramrod stopped that the powder was in there, especially with this bulky stuff. Multiple caps got no ignition. so when I took off the nipple and checked there was a big air gap in there. Even though the starch powder felt dry it was clumping and jamming before it got all the way in.

I have since truly fully dried this stuff and re-screened it. and it now works but this is WAY too much work for an inferior product. It is, however, very inexpensive.

2TM101, believe what I'm going to tell you. It's just a matter of technique! I prepare the porridge and throw it on plastic wrap, leaving it spread out like a sheet of paper. I take it out in the sun and that same afternoon it's so dry that it comes off the plastic on its own and I can break it with my hands like it was a Ruffles potato. Yes... the powder is like other substitutes, perhaps by adding iron oxide or manganese dioxide it would be even better, but I've never tried it. The important thing is to have powder options and continue research, to find others and perhaps even better ones!

[2TM101]

What velocity have you achieved with "White Powder" compared to velocities for Black Powder, and Golden Powder? I am interested to see actual velocities, impressions help but do not provide hard comparisons.

My concern is that in my life I have seen ammunition and reloading components go from fairly inexpensive and available at about any country store/hardware store/gas station etc... To being a "Specialty Item that has become expensive and one has to Shop around and "Buy When It's There". Ability to "Roll Your Own" and tailor to requirements is one reason I believe this and other threads on making powders is popular.

I got back into reloading when California started background checks for ammunition. I'm wearing a Glock 17 as I type this so the background check, or the $1 fee, was never an issue. Driving 30 miles each way to pay someone $25 to hand me a box was too much. I got into Black Powder and Airguns because California doesn't care about them, so no FFL fee at all.

Buying Black Powder involves a Hazmat fee. Buying Fertilizer, barbecue supplies and rust does not. I make my own bullets, powder & caps. I've gotten to the point with my own percussion caps that I would not buy new ones even if they were available. And if I make them out of sheet copper instead of beer cans they even look about the same. Bu then they cost $0.03 each to make as opposed to about $0.014

I have made "White Powder" (Starch) Golden Powder (vitamin C) Crimson Powder (golden powder + 4% of other stuff) and Grey Powder (golden powder + 10% of different other stuff) and found the last one to be the most effective. As that "Other Stuff" is Manganese Dioxide, which in its mineral form is called "Pyrolucite" I am calling the resulting powder Pyrolucite. Sounds like the commercially available BP substitute - and is better in some ways.

I do have a chronograph, so in the future I am going use my Rossi92 to test Win244 (Starting loads with Coffee ground filler) Vs BP Vs my Grey/Pyrolucite powder. I'll use a cartridge to test as I can carefully measure the powder ahead of time before I get to the range. I may have some fine tuning to do with the 6% charcoal 4% Manganese Dioxide part.

Ultimate goal is to come up with the best possible homemade substitute for both black powder AND trailboss.

[2TM101]

2TM101, believe what I'm going to tell you. It's just a matter of technique! I prepare the porridge and throw it on plastic wrap, leaving it spread out like a sheet of paper. I take it out in the sun and that same afternoon it's so dry that it comes off the plastic on its own and I can break it with my hands like it was a Ruffles potato.

You must be using substantially better starch, which is very likely. I was using the cheapest starch I could find ($1.99 a pound on Amazon) as the objective was just being cheap as possible. I can get a pound of starch for $2 I can get a pound of Potassium Nitrate for $2.54. A pound of gunpowder for less than $2.50 is appealing. And It did work very well. If I make this again I have to leave it on the stove a lot longer and then dry it in the food dehydrator I got. And maybe not leave it out in the rain when drying, that probably didn't help.

[Sandro_ventania]

You must be using substantially better starch, which is very likely. I was using the cheapest starch I could find ($1.99 a pound on Amazon) as the objective was just being cheap as possible. I can get a pound of starch for $2 I can get a pound of Potassium Nitrate for $2.54. A pound of gunpowder for less than $2.50 is appealing. And It did work very well. If I make this again I have to leave it on the stove a lot longer and then dry it in the food dehydrator I got. And maybe not leave it out in the rain when drying, that probably didn't help.
starch is starch. However, I clarify that I used cassava starch, also called cassava starch... (ops, the translator doesn't know the second name and repeated it). If you want a BP replacement that is more efficient than BP, you will have to use a better oxidizer. I could name a few, but I was told not to because of the idiots who might read this. Because the powder really becomes more powerful.

[dtknowles]

starch is starch. However, I clarify that I used cassava starch, also called cassava starch... (ops, the translator doesn't know the second name and repeated it). If you want a BP replacement that is more efficient than BP, you will have to use a better oxidizer. I could name a few, but I was told not to because of the idiots who might read this. Because the powder really becomes more powerful.

It could be, but I would not really know, but saying starch is starch might be like saying charcoal is charcoal.

[barrabruce]

Got to test some golden powder loads in the 30-30. 60/40 mix
I loaded these about a month ago.
Been raining and flooding and tropical humid.
29 grains with 150 pp bullet.Just to bullet base. Lots of smoke first 4 shots out of clean barrel in 2" at 50 yards.
12" low
30 grains less smoke bit more bang. Some 12" low some around point of aim.
31 grains still erratic spread but louder and less smoke.
32 only two shots. Least of all smoke. 2" low from point of aim and getting to near cracking pace.
I think I will have to clean often to shoot this beast of a gun.
My original loads seemed to work the best so far.
May try lube on paper patches again.
After 20 shots the bore was gritty first 1/3 rd of barrel.
Could have been patch fouling or patch failure.
I patched to groove +1 thou with a light taper crimp to be snug in the case. I usually patch to fill the throat or fired brass.
Since this batch of GP has time to mature I will load some more and see if there is any difference.

It was raining when I was shooting but there seems to be less smoke the more I compress this batch and more swing in velocity.
Patch failure may have caused this thou, not sure.
Any way.
Is what it is.

[2TM101]

starch is starch. However, I clarify that I used cassava starch, also called cassava starch... (ops, the translator doesn't know the second name and repeated it). If you want a BP replacement that is more efficient than BP, you will have to use a better oxidizer. I could name a few, but I was told not to because of the idiots who might read this. Because the powder really becomes more powerful.

Lots of better Oxidizers (https://www.pyrochemsource.com/Oxidizers_c_13.html) But look at the page. Potassium Nitrate is $3 a pound, about 1/4 of anything else. I'm cheap.

[Sandro_ventania]

It could be, but I would not really know, but saying starch is starch might be like saying charcoal is charcoal.

Você disse bem! “Dizer que amido é amido é o mesmo que dizer que carvão é carvão”. Por isso devemos experimentar as opções!

[Sandro_ventania]

Got to test some golden powder loads in the 30-30. 60/40 mix
I loaded these about a month ago.
Been raining and flooding and tropical humid.
29 grains with 150 pp bullet.Just to bullet base. Lots of smoke first 4 shots out of clean barrel in 2" at 50 yards.
12" low
30 grains less smoke bit more bang. Some 12" low some around point of aim.
31 grains still erratic spread but louder and less smoke.
32 only two shots. Least of all smoke. 2" low from point of aim and getting to near cracking pace.
I think I will have to clean often to shoot this beast of a gun.
My original loads seemed to work the best so far.
May try lube on paper patches again.
After 20 shots the bore was gritty first 1/3 rd of barrel.
Could have been patch fouling or patch failure.
I patched to groove +1 thou with a light taper crimp to be snug in the case. I usually patch to fill the throat or fired brass.
Since this batch of GP has time to mature I will load some more and see if there is any difference.

It was raining when I was shooting but there seems to be less smoke the more I compress this batch and more swing in velocity.
Patch failure may have caused this thou, not sure.
Any way.
Is what it is.

Powder burns better and cleaner, the higher the pressure it reaches. A good crimp and a good compressed load should give the best results.

[Sandro_ventania]

Lots of better Oxidizers (https://www.pyrochemsource.com/Oxidizers_c_13.html) But look at the page. Potassium Nitrate is $3 a pound, about 1/4 of anything else. I'm cheap.

You're right, those looking for substitutes also like economical shooting. But from experience, adding 10% of a better oxidizer improves the powder by 30% or more. It's incredible, but this little bit makes magic.

[2TM101]

You're right, those looking for substitutes also like economical shooting. But from experience, adding 10% of a better oxidizer improves the powder by 30% or more. It's incredible, but this little bit makes magic.

Potassium Perchlorate maybe?

How about:

10% Potassium Perchlorate
50% Potassium Nitrate
30% Ascorbic Acid
5% Manganese Dioxide
5% charcoal

Its possible that varying these amounts by 1-2% may improve performance even more but if this works out to be the equivalent of 777 I'll have my final formula. Nice round percentage numbers for making small amounts of it.

Potassium Perchlorate is used a lot in fireworks as it does oxidize better than potassium Nitrate, and it IS one of the components of Pyrodex, but I have no experience with it.

[Sandro_ventania]

Potassium Perchlorate maybe?

How about:

10% Potassium Perchlorate
50% Potassium Nitrate
30% Ascorbic Acid
5% Manganese Dioxide
5% charcoal

Its possible that varying these amounts by 1-2% may improve performance even more but if this works out to be the equivalent of 777 I'll have my final formula. Nice round percentage numbers for making small amounts of it.

Potassium Perchlorate is used a lot in fireworks as it does oxidize better than potassium Nitrate, and it IS one of the components of Pyrodex, but I have no experience with it.
Yes, perchlorate is a great oxidant. In this formula, I would not use manganese dioxide. Or at least I would test very carefully when using it as it can make the powder sensitive. In these substitutes I always tried to leave out the charcoal, so that the powder was as clean as possible. But coal is free, so it makes the powder economical, just how you like it...(me too).

[2TM101]

Yes, perchlorate is a great oxidant. In this formula, I would not use manganese dioxide. Or at least I would test very carefully when using it as it can make the powder sensitive. In these substitutes I always tried to leave out the charcoal, so that the powder was as clean as possible. But coal is free, so it makes the powder economical, just how you like it...(me too).

I found the MSDS for Manganese Dioxide and it specifically says do not grind it in the presence of an Oxidizer, so this is cook method only. I suppose you could tumble it without media and it would be OK.

I think I have achieved the cheapest possible powder at this point and am now looking for the best I can make, even if that limits it to cartridges as the pressure is too high for normal BP guns

[Sandro_ventania]

I still recommend testing its formula without manganese dioxide. Using perchlorate, I find it unnecessary to use a catalyst. If you do any tests using dioxide, do it with caution, in small doses. And please keep us informed of your results!

[Sandro_ventania]

I found the MSDS for Manganese Dioxide and it specifically says do not grind it in the presence of an Oxidizer, so this is cook method only. I suppose you could tumble it without media and it would be OK.

I think I have achieved the cheapest possible powder at this point and am now looking for the best I can make, even if that limits it to cartridges as the pressure is too high for normal BP guns

2TM101, did you or any other colleague compare the crimson powder with manganese dioxide and iron oxide? What difference did you find? I have trouble finding it, so I would like to know if it was worth it.

[2TM101]

I got the manganese Dioxide from Amazon actually. Same Amazon that won't send me a slingshot as it is too dangerous. It was more of a bother getting the Perchlorate. HamGunner came up with this:

Golden (60%-40% Potassium Nitrate-Ascorbic Acid) had Very Good accuracy, even though it had a wide spread in velocity and slow velocity at that. I am not sure what to make of it just yet. Golden is much lighter than any of the others and the 22 gr. completely filled the chambers of my revolver cylinder, so that is why I used 22 gr. for these tests. Golden compacts into a fairly solid chunk when compressed, but seems to burn very clean. It has much less smoke than any of the others tested.

Crimson 64.3% Potassium Nitrate,32.1% Ascorbic Acid,1.8% Iron Oxide, and 1.8% charcoal) although faster than Golden, was also a bit slow with a fair amount of velocity spread, but was somewhat less bulky than Golden. It was also clean burning and gave what I will call just Good accuracy.

My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy

Golden delivered an average of 515 fps., ES 187 fps., and SD 65 fps. Accuracy Very Good. All in a decent group with no flyers. 2 1/2" group.

Crimson delivered an average 772 fps, ES 106, and SD 43 fps. Accuracy 4" group.

Gray delivered an average 851 fps., ES 83 fps., and SD 31 fps. Accuracy 3 1/2" group..

This motivated me to focus on the "gray" composition. I was going to make some of that up today but its raining.

These tests were all 22 grains in a revolver, I'm guessing a .36, so when I load it in .38 special cases it should perform about the same. And I should be able to get 26 grains or more into a .357 case, at which point I will be satisfied.

I did buy the Potassium Perchlorate so I may go with

11% Potassium Perchlorate, 50% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal

[Nobade]

This is getting interesting. If we're not careful we may end up reinventing Pyrodex.

[dondiego]

This is getting interesting. If we're not careful we may end up reinventing Pyrodex.

I think pyrodex is potassium chlorate based.

[HamGunner]

"My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy."

While I milled and corned this mixture without any problems at all, I am not sure about doing the same with the added Potassium Perchlorate. Might not be a problem either, but I think I remember 2TM101 reading somewhere about cautions with mixtures of oxidizers and Manganese Dioxide. I am certainly not a Chemist, so the more study, the better I am guessing.

I read about the "Pyrolusite". Interesting. It has been used as far back as the Neanderthals for possibly coloring as well as enhancements to making fire.

Edit: Ok, it was right up above a few days ago.

Per 2TM101 "I found the MSDS for Manganese Dioxide and it specifically says do not grind it in the presence of an Oxidizer, so this is cook method only. I suppose you could tumble it without media and it would be OK."

[Sandro_ventania]

I got the manganese Dioxide from Amazon actually. Same Amazon that won't send me a slingshot as it is too dangerous. It was more of a bother getting the Perchlorate. HamGunner came up with this:

Golden (60%-40% Potassium Nitrate-Ascorbic Acid) had Very Good accuracy, even though it had a wide spread in velocity and slow velocity at that. I am not sure what to make of it just yet. Golden is much lighter than any of the others and the 22 gr. completely filled the chambers of my revolver cylinder, so that is why I used 22 gr. for these tests. Golden compacts into a fairly solid chunk when compressed, but seems to burn very clean. It has much less smoke than any of the others tested.

Crimson 64.3% Potassium Nitrate,32.1% Ascorbic Acid,1.8% Iron Oxide, and 1.8% charcoal) although faster than Golden, was also a bit slow with a fair amount of velocity spread, but was somewhat less bulky than Golden. It was also clean burning and gave what I will call just Good accuracy.

My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy

Golden delivered an average of 515 fps., ES 187 fps., and SD 65 fps. Accuracy Very Good. All in a decent group with no flyers. 2 1/2" group.

Crimson delivered an average 772 fps, ES 106, and SD 43 fps. Accuracy 4" group.

Gray delivered an average 851 fps., ES 83 fps., and SD 31 fps. Accuracy 3 1/2" group..

This motivated me to focus on the "gray" composition. I was going to make some of that up today but its raining.

These tests were all 22 grains in a revolver, I'm guessing a .36, so when I load it in .38 special cases it should perform about the same. And I should be able to get 26 grains or more into a .357 case, at which point I will be satisfied.

I did buy the Potassium Perchlorate so I may go with

11% Potassium Perchlorate, 50% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal
If you allow me, can I give you a composition suggestion? I would use 10% perchlorate, 50% nitrate, 35% ascorbic acid, 2% manganese dioxide and 3% charcoal. I increased the fuel a little, because with the addition of perchlorate (oxygen) I think there would be a lack of fuel. But obviously everything would need testing to confirm the best composition.

[Sandro_ventania]

This is getting interesting. If we're not careful we may end up reinventing Pyrodex.
True... but how much does it cost? 1/5 of the value of pyrodex? And without depending on the company? hmmm I think we're on a good path...lol!

[2TM101]

This is getting interesting. If we're not careful we may end up reinventing Pyrodex.

60% of Pyrodex IS black powder

45% potassium nitrate
19% potassium perchlorate
11% sodium benzoate
9% charcoal
6% sulfur
6% dicyandiamide
4% dextrin
1% water

It has 40% of other stuff added just to get the DOT to classify it differently - and not work as well. I own some Pyrodex I bought when I was just starting out and its what I could get delivered to me. I won't get any more.

[2TM101]

If you allow me, can I give you a composition suggestion? I would use 10% perchlorate, 50% nitrate, 35% ascorbic acid, 2% manganese dioxide and 3% charcoal. I increased the fuel a little, because with the addition of perchlorate (oxygen) I think there would be a lack of fuel. But obviously everything would need testing to confirm the best composition.

I'll go with this.

For one pound of powder


Perchlorate = $0.90
Nitrate = $1.25
Ascorbic Acid=$1.85
Manganese = $0.47 (at $24 a pound I'm glad its the 2% part)
Charcoal = $0.15

So about $4.52 a pound, and no hazmat fees. Figure $5 with shipping cost added in.

So for the cost of that crappy burger lunch I just had I could have 3 Lbs of powder instead, that perfectly adequate for any loading I do.

Also note that this is Potassium PERchlorate, not Potassium Chlorate. Apparently that isn't very stable.


324973

[2TM101]

I found the MSDS for Manganese Dioxide and it specifically says do not grind it in the presence of an Oxidizer, so this is cook method only. I suppose you could tumble it without media and it would be OK."

Specifically it says powdered Magnesium - so the Manganese Dioxide may behave differently. Also if the perchlorate and MNO3 is diluted to where it is only 1/8 of the total mixture it is probably too low a concentration for it to be dangerous. I'll have to be more careful that the people who tried it the first time so I don't wind up like Berthollet here.


324972

[ofitg]

Interesting details about Berthollet's accident -

https://www.chemistryviews.org/chlorates-tragic-incidents-and-life-saving-applications-part-2/

His formula included 75% potassium chlorate with 10% sulfur? Mixing potassium chlorate with sulfur is risky business, best done in very small quantities (eg, making primer compound).

Since your objective is propellants, not primers, the less reactive perchlorate should be a safer alternative.

[Sandro_ventania]

Perchlorate is much more stable than chlorate. Chlorate and sulfur is an explosive combination... only useful in primers. There are videos on YouTube showing the difference in stability between chlorate and perchlorate.

[dverna]

I'll go with this.

For one pound of powder


Perchlorate = $0.90
Nitrate = $1.25
Ascorbic Acid=$1.85
Manganese = $0.47 (at $24 a pound I'm glad its the 2% part)
Charcoal = $0.15

So about $4.52 a pound, and no hazmat fees. Figure $5 with shipping cost added in.

So for the cost of that crappy burger lunch I just had I could have 3 Lbs of powder instead, that perfectly adequate for any loading I do.

Also note that this is Potassium PERchlorate, not Potassium Chlorate. Apparently that isn't very stable.


324973

$5/lb using 22 gr works out to a powder of cost of $15.71 for 1000 rounds. I do not know how long it takes to make 3 lbs but your numbers indicate a batch size of 1 lb. Say an hour????

Cost of HP38 delivered from Powder Valley (it is in stock) is $655 for two jugs. 3.2 gr of HP38 will match or exceed your results. Powder cost for 1000 rounds works out to $18.72.

A savings of $1/hr. for an inferior product.

The risks and effort do not make sense. Smokeless powder can be stored for decades without degradation.

I understand the benefits of having something if commercial powder becomes scarce, but doing this to save money does not pencil out.

[2TM101]

Interesting details about Berthollet's accident -https://www.chemistryviews.org/chlorates-tragic-incidents-and-life-saving-applications-part-2/

His formula included 75% potassium chlorate with 10% sulfur? Mixing potassium chlorate with sulfur is risky business, best done in very small quantities (eg, making primer compound).

Since your objective is propellants, not primers, the less reactive perchlorate should be a safer alternative.

Apparently they found that out in 1788. I don't use Potassium Chlorate in anything. What I love about this picture is Barthollet is standing there totally unharmed with a *** expression and everyone around him is killed.

[2TM101]

$5/lb using 22 gr works out to a powder of cost of $15.71 for 1000 rounds. I do not know how long it takes to make 3 lbs but your numbers indicate a batch size of 1 lb. Say an hour????

Cost of HP38 delivered from Powder Valley (it is in stock) is $655 for two jugs. 3.2 gr of HP38 will match or exceed your results. Powder cost for 1000 rounds works out to $18.72.

A savings of $1/hr. for an inferior product.

The risks and effort do not make sense. Smokeless powder can be stored for decades without degradation. I understand the benefits of having something if commercial powder becomes scarce, but doing this to save money does not pencil out.

In my case this got started when California introduced background checks for ammunition and I had to make a 50 mile round trip to pay someone $25 to hand me a box. So I started reloading again after decades of not doing it. Then I looked at the hazmat fees that prevented me from buying single pounds of powder, and I started making that.

And then making powder, primers, bullets and crafting ammunition became a lot more fun than actually using it. I used to spend $12-15K a year flying and now I'm on medications that prevent me from ever doing that again. Saving money isn't an issue anymore.

[HamGunner]

This is getting interesting. If we're not careful we may end up reinventing Pyrodex.

That would not be a bad thing, especially if it works well, is cleaner burning, and is safe without the sulfur, which certainly aids in making Pyrodex just as much a nasty fouling and corrosive mix as Black Powder.

Edit: And of course, if buying the ingredients in larger volume, the price would surely go down somewhat. But, like stated, saving money is not the driving factor.

[ofitg]

Apparently they found that out in 1788. I don't use Potassium Chlorate in anything. What I love about this picture is Barthollet is standing there totally unharmed with a *** expression and everyone around him is killed.

Potassium Chlorate is still being used, in items that need the extra reactivity - for example, in kitchen matches - with additives which control/moderate the combustion -

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/fb/fb26f474-453e-42bc-84b0-bace0a4230f3.pdf

For the past few years, it has become popular for people to make their own H48 and FH42 primer compounds (used by the U.S. military in the early 1900s).
The military continued to use potassium chlorate (with lead thiocyanate instead of sulfur) for small arms primers into the 1950s -

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/priming-mixtures.58110/

[2TM101]

Cost of HP38 delivered from Powder Valley (it is in stock) is $655 for two jugs. 3.2 gr of HP38 will match or exceed your results. Powder cost for 1000 rounds works out to $18.72. A savings of $1/hr. for an inferior product.

Totally valid argument if I was just loading cartridge guns. But I have discovered (Oh Horrors) that for me at least making this stuff is actually a lot more fun than using it.

[2TM101]

I chrongraphed my three different mixtures of alternative powders today, along with Goex and my recent TP(Toilet Paper) powder. I cooked the Golden, but milled and pressed (corned) the others.

I have a batch made up of your "Gray" that I milled for a few hours mainly to make sure it was mixed as well as it could be. Plan to finish it this weekend but I have a question:

With Black Powder the Sulfur is what holds it together when its pucked. when I tried to puck "White Powder" it did nothing, the resulting puck just crumbled back into powder before I even had it out of the die. With "Gray" what is functioning as the binder?

[HamGunner]

With "Gray" what is functioning as the binder?

I certainly have not a clue. It was not ceramic hard, but did form a fair puck. Ground easily, so I ground it with the grain grinder on a coarse setting for several cycles to get as much 3F as I could. It made a bit more fines than normal Black.
\
It might be useful to add a little bit of Dextrin.

[2TM101]

I certainly have not a clue. It was not ceramic hard, but did form a fair puck. Ground easily, so I ground it with the grain grinder on a coarse setting for several cycles to get as much 3F as I could. It made a bit more fines than normal Black.
\
It might be useful to add a little bit of Dextrin.

I do have dextrin somewhere. If I remember correctly the added amount is very little and I am actually at just the right stage to put it in. I milled it for about 6 hours and its all still in the ball mill jar.

Which now has me wondering about something else. Homemade Dextrin is just baked corn starch. When I made powder that mainly consisted of corn starch - it didn't bind at all. It granulated very well once cooked - but then took several days to dry - and in a food dehydrator at that. But it didn't hold together at all coming from a ball mill.

So now I'm wondering what actually happens to corn starch when you bake it that turns it into Dextrin.

[indian joe]

I do have dextrin somewhere. If I remember correctly the added amount is very little and I am actually at just the right stage to put it in. I milled it for about 6 hours and its all still in the ball mill jar.

Which now has me wondering about something else. Homemade Dextrin is just baked corn starch. When I made powder that mainly consisted of corn starch - it didn't bind at all. It granulated very well once cooked - but then took several days to dry - and in a food dehydrator at that. But it didn't hold together at all coming from a ball mill.

So now I'm wondering what actually happens to corn starch when you bake it that turns it into Dextrin.

dunno the science but it turns from corn starch to glue
You want the colour change through straw yellow to light brown (about the colour of a dried walnut hull)

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I do have dextrin somewhere. If I remember correctly the added amount is very little and I am actually at just the right stage to put it in. I milled it for about 6 hours and its all still in the ball mill jar.

Which now has me wondering about something else. Homemade Dextrin is just baked corn starch. When I made powder that mainly consisted of corn starch - it didn't bind at all. It granulated very well once cooked - but then took several days to dry - and in a food dehydrator at that. But it didn't hold together at all coming from a ball mill.

So now I'm wondering what actually happens to corn starch when you bake it that turns it into Dextrin.

I've tried all kind of binders, including home made starch. SGRS is by far the best. I use 3% and my screened powder is rock hard.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09J94T8NK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Nobade]

I've tried all kind of binders, including home made starch. SGRS is by far the best. I use 3% and my screened powder is rock hard.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09J94T8NK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

How do you use this? Do you add it in the ball mill or afterward before making the dough ball? How does that work with golden powder, add while cooking?

[2TM101]

I've tried all kind of binders, including home made starch. SGRS is by far the best. I use 3% and my screened powder is rock hard.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09J94T8NK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Currently unavailable on Amazon. But I do have some from Skylighter I got after watching your youtube video about it.

I do not know for sure if the "Gray" powder will need it, this is my first batch of the stuff. I may try pucking it as is and if it doesn't work I will add the SGRS, run it for about 10 min to mix it in and then puck it again.

Side note I discovered Magnesium (atomic number 12) and Manganese (atomic number 25) were both named after the same Greek town. There are FOUR elements named after the same Swiss town.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

How do you use this? Do you add it in the ball mill or afterward before making the dough ball? How does that work with golden powder, add while cooking?

Golden powder doesn't need a binder. It will get hard as a rock once the water cooks out.

For BP I add it to the jar after the mill time is over and mill for an additional 10-30 minutes. Just to mix it, it's already a fine powder.

To screen add pure water. I like to get it good and well saturated to make sure all the starch is activated. At that point it will need a few hours to dry out a little or you'll just press long snakes out of your screen. When it starts to fall off the screen I know it's ready. I bought a metal syringe I've been meaning to try to press it out. The starch makes it more sticky and harder to press.

After 24 hours I'll break it up and sort, just to get the dust out which is not much. My granules are on the larger side, but they are less dense so they still burn good and fast.

[indian joe]

I've tried all kind of binders, including home made starch. SGRS is by far the best. I use 3% and my screened powder is rock hard.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09J94T8NK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Steve
Dextrin aint always Dextrin
Vettpilot reckoned rice starch was way better than Dex - I Got a bag but have not used it yet - if you are using 3% rice then I reckon GOOD dextrin is little different

my story
my first try at Dextrin was ok (kind of) I used 5% like some recommend - it worked like we would expect (that was about the first twenty pound of powder)
I cooked a new batch of Dextrin and used it at 5% in the meal intending that for screened and intending to try pucks with no Dex
So ground a bunch of meal with the 5% in from the get go then went to process some screened powder one day -- it was black glue !! - a bloody great mess. just way tooo gooey gluey so in order to dilute the dextrin percentage back to useful (2%) I ground a whole heap more meal with none and mixed / reground till I had it right -

2% Dextrin is plenty if the Dextrin is good - if 3% rice starch is needed then its no better than (Good) Dextrin is my story.........

[indian joe]

How do you use this? Do you add it in the ball mill or afterward before making the dough ball? How does that work with golden powder, add while cooking?

I put it in the mill at the start of the grind - proly dont matter but cant see the point of leaving it out till last (unless you do a stuff up like I did with too much of it )

[Nobade]

Thanks guys! I haven't tried making any screened powder yet, thought I'd give it a go to see how that works.

[2TM101]

I put it in the mill at the start of the grind - proly dont matter but cant see the point of leaving it out till last (unless you do a stuff up like I did with too much of it )

I was wondering why it was added later myself. May as well be part of the original blend if it doesn't do anything while it is still dry. From what I understand neither Dextrin nor SGRS do anything at all until you add water, and the amount of water added for Pucking is not enough for the SGRS/Dextrin to work. Or is this wrong?

For Black Powder I don't see any reason to make screened powder once you have a functioning puck die & press. For these alternate powders that are Vitamin C based, the main fuel seems to be a plenty good binder, especially when cooked.

[Sandro_ventania]

dextrin or any other binders are only suitable for sieved BP. For Golden powder, Crimson powder and any other variant based on potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid, no binders are needed. Speaking of which, I'm about to test another variant...the yellow powder!! This one promises to be better than the crimson one and the one with manganese!

[owejia]

Posted this in the wheelgun revolver section, thought it might get more discussion here. Would the golden powder do ok loaded in 45LC brass/over powder wad/walnut tumbling media/over shot card glued in with finger nail polish? This is for shooting the carpenter bees. Compressed powder with over powder wad would take up about half of the cartridge with the rest being filled with walnut media. Probably less than 10' shots. Any thoughts, opions. Haven't made any of the golden powder yet but have the necessary ingredents.

[Hellgate]

Looks like a good bee killer but I would test several rounds against some thin cardboard or paper at various distances to be sure there is no solid projectile of either powder or media. A crimp might help. You'd also get an appreciation for the pattern size and effective range.

[2TM101]

dextrin or any other binders are only suitable for sieved BP. For Golden powder, Crimson powder and any other variant based on potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid, no binders are needed. Speaking of which, I'm about to test another variant...the yellow powder!! This one promises to be better than the crimson one and the one with manganese!

Pyrotechnic Yellow powder's true formula is a 3:2:1 ratio of Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Carbonate, and Sulfur. But to make it good you have to melt it together which is an extremely dangerous thing to attempt. It will also blow up if you attempt to grind it. I have to assume you mean something else.

The reason "Golden Powder" was called what it is. This formula existed first.

[Sandro_ventania]

Pyrotechnic Yellow powder's true formula is a 3:2:1 ratio of Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Carbonate, and Sulfur. But to make it good you have to melt it together which is an extremely dangerous thing to attempt. It will also blow up if you attempt to grind it. I have to assume you mean something else.

The reason "Golden Powder" was called what it is. This formula existed first.
I'll have to find another name then...lol! What name would you give to a yellow powder, without being able to call it yellow powder?

[Sandro_ventania]

Posted this in the wheelgun revolver section, thought it might get more discussion here. Would the golden powder do ok loaded in 45LC brass/over powder wad/walnut tumbling media/over shot card glued in with finger nail polish? This is for shooting the carpenter bees. Compressed powder with over powder wad would take up about half of the cartridge with the rest being filled with walnut media. Probably less than 10' shots. Any thoughts, opions. Haven't made any of the golden powder yet but have the necessary ingredents.

What is walnut media? For insects I would use salt or corn grits. To close it, I would use paraffin or beeswax.

[owejia]

Walnut media is the shells ground up, used in brass cleaning, sandblasting, reptile bedding. The reason I use it bought a large supply for use in cleaning/polishing brass in a vibratory tumbler years age. Media can be compressed slightly in the brass cases, and they have sharp edges which seems to penetrate/cut the body of the insects. Thought about using bp but this is like a massive fire fight when the bees are active. Point and shoot at moving targets as fast as you can, reload and continue shooting usually for 15-20 minutes at a time. Bp is rather dirty and tends to build up carbon causing problems in the revolvers. Thought golden powder would burn cleaner, keeping me shooting longer instead of jam ups caused by dirty bp. Made a set of dies for 38/357 brass and also 45 acp/45Lc brass, have been doing this for several years and on a really warm mid April- May day can shoot 300+ rounds in a very short time. Usually shoot 1 to 2 thousand bee loads each spring.

[dverna]

Walnut media is the shells ground up, used in brass cleaning, sandblasting, reptile bedding. The reason I use it bought a large supply for use in cleaning/polishing brass in a vibratory tumbler years age. Media can be compressed slightly in the brass cases, and they have sharp edges which seems to penetrate/cut the body of the insects. Thought about using bp but this is like a massive fire fight when the bees are active. Point and shoot at moving targets as fast as you can, reload and continue shooting usually for 15-20 minutes at a time. Bp is rather dirty and tends to build up carbon causing problems in the revolvers. Thought golden powder would burn cleaner, keeping me shooting longer instead of jam ups caused by dirty bp. Made a set of dies for 38/357 brass and also 45 acp/45Lc brass, have been doing this for several years and on a really warm mid April- May day can shoot 300+ rounds in a very short time. Usually shoot 1 to 2 thousand bee loads each spring.

Will be cheaper and cleaner to use 1.5 gr of Bullseye or similar. At $60/lb, cost for powder comes to $.013/shot.

[2TM101]

I'll have to find another name then...lol! What name would you give to a yellow powder, without being able to call it yellow powder?

It doesn't need to be named after a color. My 'Golden Powder" was never anything close to what I would call Golden. My "Crimson Powder" is in fact a very dull red and not that color either.

The given formula for "Gray Powder" contains Manganese, the mineral form of which is Pyrolusite, so I call that Pyrolusite powder. "Grey" didn't seem to be distinctive enough as a lot of powders are grey, and "Pyrolusite" sounds like Pyrodex, so it a good name for this stuff.

My Starch "White" powder was actually white, so I got some cheap food coloring. Now I can make it in 16 different colors.

[Sandro_ventania]

Walnut media is the shells ground up, used in brass cleaning, sandblasting, reptile bedding. The reason I use it bought a large supply for use in cleaning/polishing brass in a vibratory tumbler years age. Media can be compressed slightly in the brass cases, and they have sharp edges which seems to penetrate/cut the body of the insects. Thought about using bp but this is like a massive fire fight when the bees are active. Point and shoot at moving targets as fast as you can, reload and continue shooting usually for 15-20 minutes at a time. Bp is rather dirty and tends to build up carbon causing problems in the revolvers. Thought golden powder would burn cleaner, keeping me shooting longer instead of jam ups caused by dirty bp. Made a set of dies for 38/357 brass and also 45 acp/45Lc brass, have been doing this for several years and on a really warm mid April- May day can shoot 300+ rounds in a very short time. Usually shoot 1 to 2 thousand bee loads each spring.

ahh, I get it! 300 shots in one afternoon? There must be a lot of bees there! Is it a bee (apis mellifera?) or another insect? I think you'll do very well with Golden powder, it will certainly give you 300 shots without having to clean! A video of this would be fun to watch.

[2TM101]

What is walnut media? Something I have a lot of and don't use, now that I wet tumble everything. Both of my dry tumblers have been repurposed, one does powder coating and the other does tumble lubing. Neither are functions I would have bought a dry tumbler for, but I already had them.

I would have offered all of my dry media to someone here for cost of shipping but I actually thought the world had moved on and nobody used it anymore.

[barrabruce]

I would have offered all of my dry media to someone here for cost of shipping but I actually thought the world had moved on and nobody used it anymore.

I never clean my brass looks like I missed out on using dry media or any other.
I’ve had to learn to use a little dishwashing soap in a container and shaking it around a few times using this golden powder ,then drying in the oven. It’s the mostest I have ever done.

I made a batch of golden powder about a month ago.
I left it as big rocks.
I ground some up then added a little water to make tiny clumps like screened powder.
When drying in the pan there were bits than didn’t want to loose it’s moisture.
It finally went a dark colour and I quit cooking it.
When it cooled down it dried and all seemed to go hard.
Anyone experienced the same thing?
We had a power outage and I used a low flame on a spirit burner as a heat source.

[2TM101]

I made a batch of golden powder about a month ago. I left it as big rocks. I ground some up then added a little water to make tiny clumps like screened powder.
When drying in the pan there were bits than didn’t want to loose it’s moisture. It finally went a dark colour and I quit cooking it.

When it cooled down it dried and all seemed to go hard. Anyone experienced the same thing?

At this point I have concluded that Golden Powder is like making BP without the Sulfur. Its missing ingredients, and I don't make either of those anymore.

When I make any of the other combinations, white, Crimson or "Grey" (especially the first one) I now put the "dough" into a cupcake tray with actual cheap paper cupcake liners. It basically gives me pucks. If the paper sticks and won't peel off its not a big deal. These pucks then fit in my food dehydrator if need be. Then they get broken up and ground just like BP.

Side note with the Manganese "grey" powder at the range today I had several failures to ignite. It IS possible the powder was not completely dry as it was clumping, so I have it all in a tray to dry for another week, since I can't put it in the dehydrator once its ground. Its also possible that like other black powder substitutes this just has a high ignition temperature. Current plans are when the Manganese runs out to go back to Crimson as Iron Oxide is a lot cheaper and my Crimson has been totally reliable.

[owejia]

ahh, I get it! 300 shots in one afternoon? There must be a lot of bees there! Is it a bee (apis mellifera?) or another insect? I think you'll do very well with Golden powder, it will certainly give you 300 shots without having to clean! A video of this would be fun to watch.

Actually the bees congregate where they have hatched from the larva stage to bee stage, usually where they have access to exposed wood to drill [eat a almost perfect round hole ] to crawl into to lay their eggs for next years hatch. I live in a log house with porches on three sides and a balcony on the 4th wall that is used for a car port. Over the years the aggressive killing of the bees has the population down around my log house. Any pole barns, wooden structures abandoned houses with exposed wood, especially soft fir or pine are really prone to attracting the wood bees. The intense congregating of the bees is due to their mating season and the males become quite aggressive to anything that gets in their space or area. They fly from one structure to another looking for different mates to breed. They make 90 degree turns in the wood boards and can drill as far a foot or longer in them. Lay their eggs and deposit pollen to feed the larva, until they hatch the next year. The worst part is when the wood peckers come along trying to get the bee larva by ripping holes in the boards . Can really make a eyesore of your house or other wood structure. Years ago they made a chemical[diazine, not sure of the spelling] to control them but was outlawed because it was so toxic. We have hordes of wild mustard plants that voluntarily come up in the fallow corn, soybean and wheat fields in early April into May with a yellow pollen that the bees gather to feed the larva. The holes weaken the strength of the rafters, ceiling joist, the wall boards and studs with all the holes drilled in them. This is why I try to control the wood bee population around my property. Sorry about the thread drift but if you have ever seen the damage they do to exposed soft wood you will understand why.

[2TM101]

Yes, I did. I mixed everything in together from the start. I think that by the time it starts to turn yellow it may be too late to add the other ingredients since it's already started the polymerization.

I'm going to shoot some more today, but that has to be the cause, too wet. Funny that it burned so well unconfined.

One shot was particularly interesting. It stuck the bullet in the bore and melted the mouth of the cartridge case. I could hear it burning in the chamber, it must generate some pretty high temperatures for a moment.

I had that happen to me on Friday. Its the only time it has so far - but it did happen to someone else,

[2TM101]

What is the advantage of this powder over the tried and true KNO3 and table sugar? Cost is about $3 a pound.

This post was awhile ago - has anybody actually made sugar gunpowder?

[Nobade]

I had that happen to me on Friday. Its the only time it has so far - but it did happen to someone else,

Well at least I'm not the only one to manage to do that. Was your powder freshly made like mine was or had it aged a bit?

[Sandro_ventania]

This post was awhile ago - has anybody actually made sugar gunpowder?

with sugar, it's only good if you use chlorate or perchlorate... they say it's a strong powder like triple seven. To be economical, it can be half perchlorate, half potassium nitrate. It would be 30-30-40... then it should be like BP.

[2TM101]

Well at least I'm not the only one to manage to do that. Was your powder freshly made like mine was or had it aged a bit?

Relatively fresh.

I'm seeing a recurring theme here that these alternate powders are not actually ready when they look like they are. Some reaction is still taking place and they need to "cure" for some amount of time before being used. I had all of my Manganese "grey" powder in charging tubes already - but at the range this past weekend I got multiple hangfires and one load took four primers before it finally went off. This was in an inline using CCI 209 primers.

I have seen a few posts from others saying their older powder worked better. So now its all spread out in a baking tray for more drying and "cure" time.

[2TM101]

with sugar, it's only good if you use chlorate or perchlorate... they say it's a strong powder like triple seven. To be economical, it can be half perchlorate, half potassium nitrate. It would be 30-30-40... then it should be like BP.

I have perchlorate now, but it costs considerably more than nitrate so this may not actually be an economical choice. When this stuff gets more expensive than the real thing, I'll just make the real thing. I can also only imagine how much residue there would be from burning sugar.

Speaking of Perchlorate - is there any formula for swapping it out with Nitrate? I know it has 4 oxygen atoms per molecule as opposed to the 3 that are in Nitrate, but it apparently oxidizes a lot faster in addition.

[a.squibload]

Thanks for this GP thread, got me to do stuff instead of just thinkin about it.

GP complaints & suggestions...

I was convinced by a video to purify the KNo3, and to try
making charcoal.

Nobody told me not to use aluminum to cool the solution.
I used foil to protect the aluminum baking pan. The nitrate salt
destroyed the foil and kinda wrecked the pan. I hope the bits of foil
won't make much difference in the mix.

I tried the "starch" powder, it was hard to do, took forever to dry,
set up hard as rock, failed to ignite in a 38 cartridge sticking the
bullet in the barrel (primer did that I guess). Won't make any more of
that stuff.

The Crimson powder worked well in a 38, point of aim at 25 yards.
I want to add some charcoal but the can I used to make charcoal
had no exhaust hole. I figured the smoke would get out through the
loose fit between the lid and can. It did but seems to need a hole
for more flow. There was a liquid residue that dried hard, also the wood
didn't all charcoalize. First time, I'll try again. As well as the CP works
I still want to try making BP.

(I didn't try CP in the frontstuffer, it was getting cold and I got hungry.)

Residue / rings in barrel with BP can be avoided with natural lubes
(non-petroleum), try a lube wad under the payload, works wonders.
Don't clean or lube with petroleum either, use natural stuff (Crisco base, etc.),
plenty of info here in other threads.

Bee trap: there are YT videos showing a simple wasp trap made from a 2-liter soda
bottle (cut the top off & invert it, wire it together making a bale to hang it
with, add colored sugar water, bits of fruit in for bait). Not sure if it would work on
carpenter bees, works great on wasps. 'Course "bee shot" is more fun.

PS: KNo3 smells like pee! :>(

[Nobade]

Welcome a.squibload, you are going through many of the same things the rest of us have been through. Enjoy the fun, be safe, and let us know what you find!

[2TM101]

Thanks for this GP thread, got me to do stuff instead of just thinkin about it.

GP complaints & suggestions...

I was convinced by a video to purify the KNo3, and to try making charcoal.

Purifying the KNO3 Is a lot of work for miniscule gain

I hope the bits of foil won't make much difference in the mix.

It will

I tried the "starch" powder, it was hard to do, took forever to dry, set up hard as rock, failed to ignite in a 38 cartridge sticking the bullet in the barrel (primer did that I guess). Won't make any more of that stuff.

Even after "Forever" it failed because it was not dry. I have to put mine in a cupcake tray with paper liners to make pucks, put those in a food dehydrator on max setting for two DAYS, then I can grind them up and make powder. Yes the paper sticks and bits of paper wind up in the powder. Bits of paper is safe. Bits of Aluminum - you actually have made a different composition.

The Crimson powder worked well in a 38, point of aim at 25 yards. I want to add some charcoal but the can I used to make charcoal had no exhaust hole. I figured the smoke would get out through the loose fit between the lid and can. It did but seems to need a hole for more flow.

Crimson powder HAS Charcoal in it. Its less than 2% but there is some. As far as your Kiln goes, I did have a paint can with a hole in the lid but it started coming apart after a few runs. I finally bought an Amazon dutch oven, and yes, it does need the hole. Gas needs to escape freely, leaking around the lid is not enough.

Residue / rings in barrel with BP can be avoided with natural lubes (non-petroleum), try a lube wad under the payload, works wonders. Don't clean or lube with petroleum either, use natural stuff (Crisco base, etc.),

You can use Petroleum lube with these alternate powders just like with Smokeless, its fine. You cannot use it with Black powder or even Pyrodex as both contain Sulfur, which combines with the petroleum to make tar.

PS: KNo3 smells like pee! :>

Look up how it was originally made. It was from Pee.
(

I'm doing that thing where my part is in Blue

[Sandro_ventania]

I have perchlorate now, but it costs considerably more than nitrate so this may not actually be an economical choice. When this stuff gets more expensive than the real thing, I'll just make the real thing. I can also only imagine how much residue there would be from burning sugar.

Speaking of Perchlorate - is there any formula for swapping it out with Nitrate? I know it has 4 oxygen atoms per molecule as opposed to the 3 that are in Nitrate, but it apparently oxidizes a lot faster in addition.

It is for economic reasons that I prefer to use perchlorate only as an additive. that 10% that we already talked about.

[Sandro_ventania]

Thanks for this GP thread, got me to do stuff instead of just thinkin about it.

GP complaints & suggestions...

I was convinced by a video to purify the KNo3, and to try
making charcoal.

Nobody told me not to use aluminum to cool the solution.
I used foil to protect the aluminum baking pan. The nitrate salt
destroyed the foil and kinda wrecked the pan. I hope the bits of foil
won't make much difference in the mix.

I tried the "starch" powder, it was hard to do, took forever to dry,
set up hard as rock, failed to ignite in a 38 cartridge sticking the
bullet in the barrel (primer did that I guess). Won't make any more of
that stuff.

The Crimson powder worked well in a 38, point of aim at 25 yards.
I want to add some charcoal but the can I used to make charcoal
had no exhaust hole. I figured the smoke would get out through the
loose fit between the lid and can. It did but seems to need a hole
for more flow. There was a liquid residue that dried hard, also the wood
didn't all charcoalize. First time, I'll try again. As well as the CP works
I still want to try making BP.

(I didn't try CP in the frontstuffer, it was getting cold and I got hungry.)

Residue / rings in barrel with BP can be avoided with natural lubes
(non-petroleum), try a lube wad under the payload, works wonders.
Don't clean or lube with petroleum either, use natural stuff (Crisco base, etc.),
plenty of info here in other threads.

Bee trap: there are YT videos showing a simple wasp trap made from a 2-liter soda
bottle (cut the top off & invert it, wire it together making a bale to hang it
with, add colored sugar water, bits of fruit in for bait). Not sure if it would work on
carpenter bees, works great on wasps. 'Course "bee shot" is more fun.

PS: KNo3 smells like pee! :>(

squibloat, congratulations on getting your hands dirty! Not only is it economical, but it's fun to shoot something you made yourself. And you'll still be prepared for the zombie apocalypse...lol! Share your experiences! I also make BP, but I prefer to use GP or crimson, as they are easier to make and are much less messy in the barrel.

[a.squibload]

Thx for the response.

Purifying the KNO3 gave me a few tiny grains of dirt - agree not worth the effort.

How much difference would the aluminum flakes make? There's not much, got most of it out.
Not even sure it could be called aluminum any more, grey and dusty.

After 2 days I threw the starch powder in the toaster oven for 10+ hours, it ground up
OK but wow, what a hassle. Might try corn starch for mortar if I build a brick wall! :>)

I didn't add any charcoal to my CP, will try that soon, I think the CP style is best, easy to
make, easy to clean up after.

PS: yeah, they used to dig dirt from under churches (among other places) for the nitrates.
It was considered impolite to leave during the sermon, which could be a long time.
Hence the term "pews". OK, that's what I heard, I'm not THAT old...

[2TM101]

How much difference would the aluminum flakes make? There's not much, got most of it out.
Not even sure it could be called aluminum any more, grey and dusty.

Enough of it and your powder will start burning hotter than you want it to Less than 1% probably not too bad

After 2 days I threw the starch powder in the toaster oven for 10+ hours, it ground up OK but wow, what a hassle. Might try corn starch for mortar if I build a brick wall! :>)

It takes FAR longer to dry than any of the other mixtures we talked about here. And if you don't get it thin enough it forms a crust on it that locks the rest of the moisture in. I make cupcake pucks and use a food dehydrator unless I'm planning on making it into powder a month from now

I didn't add any charcoal to my CP, will try that soon, I think the CP style is best, easy to make, easy to clean up after.

CP has no charcoal in it, its a 2 component blend. For a single shot muzzleloader its great, you just have to use 150-200% of a black powder load. For anything else its not energy dense enough. The Iron Oxide and Charcoal you add to make it Crimson powder is only 3.8% of the mix, but makes a HUGE difference in power. Crimson powder is fine for revolvers. Still not quite enough to make a 9mm cycle, but I am told a .45ACP will cycle with it.

The manganese based version - with Perchlorate added to make it oxidize faster, *might* be enough to make a 9mm work, but I'm not there yet.

[Sandro_ventania]

Hey guys...a topic with more than 20 pages and counting, can you ask the administrators to pin it? Ask me to pin it below Black powder's sister topic!

[2TM101]

Something we haven't been talking about in this thread (as opposed to the BP thread) is what density these various alternate powders are supposed to be at. I just checked my last batch of Manganese/Pyrolusite/"Grey" and it came out at 0.88 grams per CC! Thats less than half of what commercial BP is at 1.70.

So far all I have used it in is single shot inline muzzleloaders and I was loading charge tubes for that by weight, not volume. By weight it seems to be about equal performance. But when I filled a .357 case and then measured it it was 18 grains.

I don't have any golden powder as as don't make that anymore. I do have Crimson but I think it would measure the same as the Pyrolusite as there is only a 3% difference in the composition. When Hamgunner got these results:

Gray delivered an average 851 fps., ES 83 fps., and SD 31 fps. Accuracy 3 1/2" group.
Goex delivered an average 841 fps., ES 63 fps., and SD 23 fps. Accuracy 3" group.
He had pucked and corned everything but the Golden (not sure why, but he cooked just that one)

My Pyrolusite/Manganese/Gray was cooked and never pucked. And.....wow. Everything gets pucked from now on. I'm even going to go back to my apparently not finished stuff, measure what it is now, puck it, and measure it again, and see what gain I get. It seems to be just as good as commercial Black Powder by weight - provided you can actually get it in the Gun.

Now I'm wondering about the starch powder. It will NOT puck, it comes out of the die the same crumbly powder that went in. But is it compressing? I will have to make some and check. I'll report on that in May I suppose - that stuff does not dry at any reasonable speed.

[Sandro_ventania]

Something we haven't been talking about in this thread (as opposed to the BP thread) is what density these various alternate powders are supposed to be at. I just checked my last batch of Manganese/Pyrolusite/"Grey" and it came out at 0.88 grams per CC! Thats less than half of what commercial BP is at 1.70.

So far all I have used it in is single shot inline muzzleloaders and I was loading charge tubes for that by weight, not volume. By weight it seems to be about equal performance. But when I filled a .357 case and then measured it it was 18 grains.

I don't have any golden powder as as don't make that anymore. I do have Crimson but I think it would measure the same as the Pyrolusite as there is only a 3% difference in the composition. When Hamgunner got these results:

Gray delivered an average 851 fps., ES 83 fps., and SD 31 fps. Accuracy 3 1/2" group.
Goex delivered an average 841 fps., ES 63 fps., and SD 23 fps. Accuracy 3" group.
He had pucked and corned everything but the Golden (not sure why, but he cooked just that one)

My Pyrolusite/Manganese/Gray was cooked and never pucked. And.....wow. Everything gets pucked from now on. I'm even going to go back to my apparently not finished stuff, measure what it is now, puck it, and measure it again, and see what gain I get. It seems to be just as good as commercial Black Powder by weight - provided you can actually get it in the Gun.

Now I'm wondering about the starch powder. It will NOT puck, it comes out of the die the same crumbly powder that went in. But is it compressing? I will have to make some and check. I'll report on that in May I suppose - that stuff does not dry at any reasonable speed.

For me this is a mystery. My starch powder dries in 24 hours, just in the sun! I think you are using too much water or leaving too thick a layer. I spread on a plastic sheet (towel, film) a layer as thin as a sheet of paper.

[2TM101]

For me this is a mystery. My starch powder dries in 24 hours, just in the sun! I think you are using too much water or leaving too thick a layer. I spread on a plastic sheet (towel, film) a layer as thin as a sheet of paper.

Too thick a layer is most likely it. Thin as a sheet of paper? How? You use a rolling pin or some such?

[Sandro_ventania]

Too thick a layer is most likely it. Thin as a sheet of paper? How? You use a rolling pin or some such?

Paper-thin was a bit of an exaggeration... ha ha. But I put plastic wrap on top and use a roller to spread it. It will stick to the plastic when you remove it, then you put it out to dry, when it dries, it comes away from the plastic like crispy skin.

[2TM101]

Have you ever heard of white powder? It's stronger than the GP, it's just not as clean... I've seen it used in 9mm. The recipe is also simple. 65% potassium nitrate (perchlorate is even better) and 35% starch.

So far nothing I have made actually cycles 9mm (its fine in 9mm revolvers) What mix and how much is being used to get 9mm to work? I have Perchlorate now, specifically for 9mm - do not think I need it in anything else.

[Sandro_ventania]

I personally have never used 9mm, because I don't like the caliber, and mainly I don't like pistols. But I know they've already used it. Have you tried perchlorate powder with starch? 60-40 or 65-35?

[2TM101]

I personally have never used 9mm, because I don't like the caliber, and mainly I don't like pistols. But I know they've already used it. Have you tried perchlorate powder with starch? 60-40 or 65-35?

I found there actually is a commercial formula for Starch powder that was used extensively in South Africa. "Sannadex" is a 9/8/2 mix of Chlorate, Sugar and Oxide (Iron). Not experimental, it was widely used for years by a large number of people.

50:50 Sugar and Potassium Chlorate sounds too simple, but apparently 8.5 grains of it will fit into a 9mm, and it cycles. Also I get the general idea that starch and sugar are interchangeable as I see formulas with starch used and then somewhere else is the same formula but it is sugar instead, and the same amount..

Perchlorate may be slightly better than Nitrate but for 4 times the cost I won't get any more of it. Potassium Chlorate seems to be the Oxidizer of choice for anything that does NOT contain Sulfur. So much so that all the formulas need to be redone, and the resulting product could be too powerful for muzzleloaders.

Back to the drawing board

[dondiego]

I found there actually is a commercial formula for Starch powder that was used extensively in South Africa. "Sannadex" is a 9/8/2 mix of Nitrate, Starch and Oxide (Iron). Not experimental, it was widely used for years by a large number of people.

50:50 Sugar and Nitrate sounds too simple, but apparently 8.5 grains of it will fit into a 9mm, and it cycles. Also I get the general idea that starch and sugar are interchangeable as I see formulas with starch used and then somewhere else is the same formula but it is sugar instead, and the same amount..

Question I have then is how much better is perchlorate in this case?

60:40 Sugar (or starch) & Perchlorate? or 65:35 if its that much better. Though to be honest, if I can get a 9mm to cycle with plain old Nitrate I may stop experimenting. This was the "Holy Grail" and if 9mm works, anything will.

What is a 9/8/2 mix?

[Sandro_ventania]

I found there actually is a commercial formula for Starch powder that was used extensively in South Africa. "Sannadex" is a 9/8/2 mix of Nitrate, Starch and Oxide (Iron). Not experimental, it was widely used for years by a large number of people.

50:50 Sugar and Nitrate sounds too simple, but apparently 8.5 grains of it will fit into a 9mm, and it cycles. Also I get the general idea that starch and sugar are interchangeable as I see formulas with starch used and then somewhere else is the same formula but it is sugar instead, and the same amount..

Question I have then is how much better is perchlorate in this case?

60:40 Sugar (or starch) & Perchlorate? or 65:35 if its that much better. Though to be honest, if I can get a 9mm to cycle with plain old Nitrate I may stop experimenting. This was the "Holy Grail" and if 9mm works, anything will.

I know Sannadex as a powder made from sugar and chlorate. It is quite hygroscopic, if you use starch, it becomes less hygroscopic. Have you tested the crimson powder by adding the perchlorate? I wish I could test it before I tell you, but like I said, I don't use 9mm. But I strongly believe that by adding the perchlorate, it will cycle to 9mm.

[Sandro_ventania]

What is a 9/8/2 mix?

I believe by volume. 9 parts + 8 parts + 2 parts

[HamGunner]

I believe that will calculate out to 47.37 % of the Nitrates, 42.10 % of the Starch, and 10.53 % of the Iron Oxide.

[dondiego]

I believe by volume. 9 parts + 8 parts + 2 parts

Is that by volume or weight?

[HamGunner]

I would rather think by weight of dried ingredients. Not nearly as accurate other wise.

[HamGunner]

i found this posted here on this site from back in 2016. It is shown in volume, so that was likely the usual way of measuring it.
KNO3 - 2 1/3 cups, Sugar - 2 cups (starch ?), Iron Oxide - 1/8 cup.

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/IMcomp_zpsvklnwckw.png

[2TM101]

Is that by volume or weight?

It was by TABLESPOON. Site I got it from was in Zimbabwe. I assumed it was Potassium Nitrate but it turned out to actually be Potassium Chlorate.

I just got a whole lot of Potassium Perchlorate, but then a Chemist pointed out that It reacted slower than Potassium Nitrate and only produces 18% more oxygen by weight. So that was a waste. Chlorate is much better than either, but just how much seems to vary.

And the gremlin is Sulfur. Not only do you have to keep it away from petroleum based bullet lubes, you get it anywhere near the Chlorate and your reloading room will blow up like a Meth lab.

[LAGS]

Aren’t priming compounds like H48 and F42 made from potassium chlorate and Sulfur ?

[Nobade]

Aren’t priming compounds like H48 and F42 made from potassium chlorate and Sulfur ?

Yes they are and you must be extremely careful while handling them.

[2TM101]

Aren’t priming compounds like H48 and F42 made from potassium chlorate and Sulfur ?

H48 is Antimony Sulfate, Sulfur and Potassium Chlorate. It also explodes, not burns. There is very little of it in a primer or cap.

[LAGS]

Thank you guys.
Now I can see why you can’t use potassium chlorite to make BP to make the powder faster.
When I made fireworks.
I use to use the PC instead of Kn03 to boost the powder like in firecrackers

[2TM101]

Thank you guys. Now I can see why you can’t use potassium chlorite to make BP to make the powder faster.

Potassium Chlorate and Sulfur not only explode but are very friction sensitive. Its why H48 even works.

But you can't make Gunpowder that way. They learned that as far back as 1794.

I still love that one on the left. Everyone around Berthollet is dead (Over 1000 people) and he's just standing there totally unharmed wondering what happened.

325800 325803

Now you CAN use Potassium Perchlorate, but for 4 times the cost. Pyrodex contains it, so apparently there is some gain for using it.

[2TM101]

I know Sannadex as a powder made from sugar and chlorate. It is quite hygroscopic, if you use starch, it becomes less hygroscopic.

So starch and Sugar are essentially interchangeable in these compositions?

I've seen Sannadex formulas using Nitrate, and ones using Chlorate. These are every different chemicals, someone is dangerously wrong. On the site where it said Nitrate, it also gave the formula for regular Black Powder as 75-25-5, so I tend to think they are wrong and you are right in this case. They also said you cook Sannadex dry. It looked like something out of Anarchists Cookbook - which intentionally had dangerously wrong formulas in it.

Every reference to it I can find show it being used in centerfire cartridge rifles and getting around 2000+ FPS. If it is indeed Chlorate, and it seems to be, it is not safe to use in a black powder only firearm. But I'm guessing that won't matter to most of the readers here as you were not planning to use any of these that way anyhow.

I have now seen SEVEN different formulas for Crimson powder, with three of them being on the same page. And disturbingly - all are called Crimson Powder.

I now have a proven formula for Black Powder, a proven formula for Crimson Powder and a proven formula for H48. At this point I am going to stop experimenting and just watch.

[Sandro_ventania]

It was by TABLESPOON. Site I got it from was in Zimbabwe. I assumed it was Potassium Nitrate but it turned out to actually be Potassium Chlorate.

I just got a whole lot of Potassium Perchlorate, but then a Chemist pointed out that It reacted slower than Potassium Nitrate and only produces 18% more oxygen by weight. So that was a waste. Chlorate is much better than either, but just how much seems to vary.

And the gremlin is Sulfur. Not only do you have to keep it away from petroleum based bullet lubes, you get it anywhere near the Chlorate and your reloading room will blow up like a Meth lab.

All manufacturers that I know of use perchlorate...they avoid chlorate because of its instability. Perchlorate is very good, there was no waste, use it and you will see the difference.

[Sandro_ventania]

Thank you guys.
Now I can see why you can’t use potassium chlorite to make BP to make the powder faster.
When I made fireworks.
I use to use the PC instead of Kn03 to boost the powder like in firecrackers

I will tell you my experience. I didn't do BP with chlorate. I added 10% chlorate to the ready-made BP. And this increased the speed by 30%. But it's the kind of thing that... do what I say, but don't do what I do... lol

[Sandro_ventania]

So starch and Sugar are essentially interchangeable in these compositions?

I've seen Sannadex formulas using Nitrate, and ones using Chlorate. These are every different chemicals, someone is dangerously wrong. On the site where it said Nitrate, it also gave the formula for regular Black Powder as 75-25-5, so I tend to think they are wrong and you are right in this case. They also said you cook Sannadex dry. It looked like something out of Anarchists Cookbook - which intentionally had dangerously wrong formulas in it.

Every reference to it I can find show it being used in centerfire cartridge rifles and getting around 2000+ FPS. If it is indeed Chlorate, and it seems to be, it is not safe to use in a black powder only firearm. But I'm guessing that won't matter to most of the readers here as you were not planning to use any of these that way anyhow.

I have now seen SEVEN different formulas for Crimson powder, with three of them being on the same page. And disturbingly - all are called Crimson Powder.

I now have a proven formula for Black Powder, a proven formula for Crimson Powder and a proven formula for H48. At this point I am going to stop experimenting and just watch.

Sugar is better than starch, but with sugar, it becomes very hygroscopic. It can't be stored. You can use pure nitrate, pure chlorate (or perchlorate) or mix nitrate with chlorate.

[Sandro_ventania]

Quanto mais clorato ou perclorato, mais forte será o pó.

[2TM101]

All manufacturers that I know of use perchlorate...they avoid chlorate because of its instability. Perchlorate is very good, there was no waste, use it and you will see the difference.

I went to the bottom of the Sannadex rabbit hole, at least the best anyone can researching 10-15 year old information from South Africa. Lets just say we should forget about it.

[MUSTANG]

Quanto mais clorato ou perclorato, mais forte será o pó.


Translation for those like myself who did not know what his posting meant:

The more chlorate or perchlorate, the stronger the powder will be.

[Sandro_ventania]

I'm sorry, this time the message was in my language. Thank you Mustang, for the translation.

[Tracy]

Aren’t priming compounds like H48 and F42 made from potassium chlorate and Sulfur ?

Recipes I've seen advise adding a small amount of baking soda to neutralize the acid in the sulfur. That doesn't make it safe, but makes it more stable.

[2TM101]

Crimson 64.3% Potassium Nitrate,32.1% Ascorbic Acid,1.8% Iron Oxide, and 1.8% charcoal) although faster than Golden, was also a bit slow with a fair amount of velocity spread, but was somewhat less bulky than Golden. It was also clean burning and gave what I will call just Good accuracy.

My Gray 61% Potassium Nitrate,31% Ascorbic Acid, 5% Manganese Dioxide, and 3% charcoal was faster yet with less velocity spread. It was clean burning and also gave just Good accuracy.

Crimson delivered an average 772 fps, ES 106, and SD 43 fps. Accuracy 4" group.

Gray delivered an average 851 fps., ES 83 fps., and SD 31 fps. Accuracy 3 1/2" group.

Maybe its just me or I made a bad batch, but the manganese powder isn't working for me.

In my .45 inline it failed to ignite multiple times - then finally did, moving the ball about 4" down the barrel.

I loaded 25 rounds of .38 consisting of 1cc of 'Gray" with 2 grains of W244 on top of it. Not only wildly inaccurate, in FOUR of those the smokeless went off - and the Gray STILL didn't ignite. I got a pop and saw the bullet hit the dirt behind the target, but no appreciable smoke.

After I got home I poured one of the 60 grain charge tubes on a paper plate and lit it. Took over three seconds to burn. Reminded me of when I tried to make Black Powder using activated charcoal. This stuff burns slowly and HOT, like I made low grade thermite.

[Rian de Stokke]

Bump

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[HamGunner]

Maybe its just me or I made a bad batch, but the manganese powder isn't working for me.
Did you mill and corn this or use the cooking method? I milled then corned/screened the (Gray) with the Manganese as I also did with the Crimson with the Iron Oxide.

I found no difficulty in ignition. I used one of my .36 cal. revolvers for the tests and used my home made caps for the ignition.

[2TM101]

Did you mill and corn this or use the cooking method? I milled then corned/screened the (Gray) with the Manganese as I also did with the Crimson with the Iron Oxide. I found no difficulty in ignition. I used one of my .36 cal. revolvers for the tests and used my home made caps for the ignition.

I clearly did something wrong, there is no other explanation for the results being this different.

In another unexplained observation, the manganese powder, and my starch powder, are remaining free flowing granules, but my crimson powder is "Agglomerating" (new word for me). Others have said the golden powder also does this.

Easy enough to take a spoon and break it back up - at least when its in a tub. But if that is happening inside cartridges loaded with it I can't fix it or even know its happening. So now its pretty much limited to muzzleloader use. MIGHT be moisture related but I have no way to dry it out once its already powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

Yes... some mixtures become more or less hygroscopic, dry powder has to be well packed, preferably with silica. I always prefer to make small batches to use within a month at most. I still have a leftover batch of Golden powder that is over a year old, stored in a plastic container, it is still grainy, not as much as when I made it, but perfectly usable. I believe that loaded brass cases should still keep the powder intact.

[2TM101]

I found a place that makes re-usable silica gel packs. News to me that this even existed, apparently you pop them in a microwave on defrost for about 10 minutes and it steams all the collected moisture out of them.

I had originally put my homemade powder in old smokeless powder cans. Black powder was fine, but some of these alternates clumped up ("Agglomerated"). Not badly, hit the can a few times and it went back to powder. I poured it all out into open top cottage cheese tubs and it did it again. When my Silica Gel packs come I'll put several in each tub and seal them up and see if that works.

I had loaded a number of duplex .38 rounds and in 4 out of 22 rounds the homemade powder did not ignite even when the smokeless powder did - and it was on top. Just got a pop, about 200 fps and no significant smoke. What I did see may have just been the powder blowing out of the gun.

I know how to make improvised munitions - seriously potent ones actually. But learning how to make this low powered stuff that can make a black powder gun work without damaging it is an art form I'm still mastering.

[HamGunner]

With all the chatter about moisture and these powders being fairly hygroscopic, I checked all the leftovers from my batches that I had made right at 2 months ago. Stored in plastic medicine bottles for the most part and various other plastic bottles with sealing tops, I really do not see anything indicating that they have taken up any moisture to speak of. Even the fines are still plenty dry enough to pour through a fine funnel.

I checked on the Golden, Crimson, and the Gray w/Magnesium and all are still plenty loose & dry. They are stored in my basement reloading/hobby room where it is climate controlled, but there are plenty of days where the humidity has exceeded 60% or more. Sealed containers seem to be plenty good enough for me.

[2TM101]

I checked on the Golden, Crimson, and the Gray w/Magnesium and all are still plenty loose & dry. They are stored in my basement reloading/hobby room where it is climate controlled, but there are plenty of days where the humidity has exceeded 60% or more. Sealed containers seem to be plenty good enough for me.

Its possible in my case it was not dry enough to begin with. Sealed containers keep the moisture IN as well....

I left the most recent batch of starch powder in the dehydrator a whole extra day and it made nice hard granules that still pour like sand. I don't know how I messed up the manganese powder but it at least does still pour correctly. I do have silica gel packs inbound, I'll see what I can do with those.

[Sandro_ventania]

As soon as I do a test, I leave some of the powder on a plate on the table and observe. So I can observe the hygroscopic potential of each one and I discard the worst ones.

[dtknowles]

I found a place that makes re-usable silica gel packs. News to me that this even existed, apparently you pop them in a microwave on defrost for about 10 minutes and it steams all the collected moisture out of them.



Almost all silica gel pack descants can be rejuvenated in a dehydrator, or oven. I did not know about using a microwave. We used to used them at work and we had a dehydrator that used heat lamps to rejuvenate them.

Tim

[barrabruce]

Can I use golden powder as a combustible filler?
I tried some duplexing of 310 brass with 3.2 gn shotgun powder and 1cc golden powder to the case mouth then finder seated a pp’ed bullet.
This is for fireforming as well as effect I hope.

Mine is hydroscopic.
Last month I added some bits of another batch to my glass jam jar and it was sticking to the sides to day.
A whack on the heal of my hand and it fell off the side of the jar and a big ball was left loose.
A bit of a shake and it all fluffed up again.
I sparked off 1cc and it went woof so I loaded some cases up with it.
Next month I may get to test them.

[Nobade]

I don't see why you couldn't use it for combustible filler. Of course it will add some energy to the shot but not a tremendous amount and it will certainly take up space. Just remember to clean your brass cases really well afterward since the fouling will attack brass.

[Sandro_ventania]

Can I use golden powder as a combustible filler?
I tried some duplexing of 310 brass with 3.2 gn shotgun powder and 1cc golden powder to the case mouth then finder seated a pp’ed bullet.
This is for fireforming as well as effect I hope.

Mine is hydroscopic.
Last month I added some bits of another batch to my glass jam jar and it was sticking to the sides to day.
A whack on the heal of my hand and it fell off the side of the jar and a big ball was left loose.
A bit of a shake and it all fluffed up again.
I sparked off 1cc and it went woof so I loaded some cases up with it.
Next month I may get to test them.

use golden powder on the bottom and smokeless on top. It is the duplex load that works best... including for shooting with rifles, like .308, 30-06, etc. These duplex loads burn very clean...you'll barely see any dirt. But still throw it in water with detergent when you get home.

[barrabruce]

O.k. Will do.
I put the powders 20 each way so one of them has to be a winner!

I will give the new to me gun a good scrubbing out afterwards or when things go south.

Hopefully it will blast out some of the cobwebs and shoot reasonable afterwards.

[twinscrewcanoe]

Questions on adding dextrin. How is it made? How is it mixed into the ingredients? How much do you use...some kind of ratio?

[Sandro_ventania]

It is not necessary to use dextrin, not even in Golden powder, Crimson powder and any other that uses potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid as main ingredients, because after cooking, when it cools the powder becomes hard as a stone.

[2TM101]

I don't see why you couldn't use it for combustible filler. Of course it will add some energy to the shot but not a tremendous amount and it will certainly take up space. Just remember to clean your brass cases really well afterward since the fouling will attack brass.

I now have a formula that appears to be the functional equivalent of Unique smokeless. Also one that appears to be the equivalent of Pyrodex. When I run out of all the other components I got to do testing with those are the only two I will make. I also made A lot of "failed" powders that produce a lot less energy, but I will still use. I also have a large pile of components I had to buy to test all that stuff, so I will still make the weaker formulas until that runs out and I will not waste.

And that stuff fits in the category of Combustible Filler. I have determined that with a smokeless charge behind it, my weak powders actually work. I take the starting load, reduce it by 1 grain and add 1cc of my garbage powder. Lots of smoke and it sounds & feels like the full power load.

Side note - I put my old coffee ground in as filler a few times. Seemed to have no effect whatsoever, not even burnt coffee smell.

[2TM101]

Questions on adding dextrin. How is it made? How is it mixed into the ingredients? How much do you use...some kind of ratio?

Put Corn Starch in the oven for awhile and it makes Destrin. Detailed instructions are elsewhere here and also on youtube. But you only need Dextrin or SGRS with Screened black powder. None of these alternate formulas need it.

[a.squibload]

Progress report:

My frustration ( / confusion? ) with these alternate powders probably stems from procedure, not ingredients.
However, it led to making my first Holy Black. Didn't realize it was that easy. First batch seems really fast.
Ball milled 12 hours, wetted with alcohol, squeezed in gloved hand and pushed through window screen with
a credit card (I made a wood frame for the screen). Looks about like 3f size. A one-inch trail lit at one end went "poof!"
We'll see how fast it throws a lead ball.

I will still experiment with GP, etc., but the addition of charcoal is where it went wrong. Not sure of nomenclature
but tried the KNo3 + vitamin C + iron oxide + charcoal. Probably made it too wet. Finally dried ( I thought),
ball milling made big hard lumps like rocks. Busted them up, dried again, crushed with a stick. The resulting "powder"
was like gravel, mill meant nothing to it. Soaked it in alcohol to soften it up for another try. Three days, it's still wet,
but in sheet form and crumbly. Soon I will mill it again and give it a try.

My aversion to making real BP was the milling, pucking, & grinding (I don't want to spend hundreds of $ for equipment
to make a few pounds of powder). Glad I read this thread, gave me the push to JUST DO IT!
Also an alternative which still has promise.

PS: Real BP seems so easy. The sulphur I bought was a fine powder, the KNo3 is easy to mill, the toilet paper charcoal
is so fragile it's easy to mill as well. Next batch I'll just throw it all in the mill, see no need to pre-mill each component.

[indian joe]

Progress report:

My frustration ( / confusion? ) with these alternate powders probably stems from procedure, not ingredients.
However, it led to making my first Holy Black. Didn't realize it was that easy. First batch seems really fast.
Ball milled 12 hours, wetted with alcohol, squeezed in gloved hand and pushed through window screen with
a credit card (I made a wood frame for the screen). Looks about like 3f size. A one-inch trail lit at one end went "poof!"
We'll see how fast it throws a lead ball.

I will still experiment with GP, etc., but the addition of charcoal is where it went wrong. Not sure of nomenclature
but tried the KNo3 + vitamin C + iron oxide + charcoal. Probably made it too wet. Finally dried ( I thought),
ball milling made big hard lumps like rocks. Busted them up, dried again, crushed with a stick. The resulting "powder"
was like gravel, mill meant nothing to it. Soaked it in alcohol to soften it up for another try. Three days, it's still wet,
but in sheet form and crumbly. Soon I will mill it again and give it a try.

My aversion to making real BP was the milling, pucking, & grinding (I don't want to spend hundreds of $ for equipment
to make a few pounds of powder). Glad I read this thread, gave me the push to JUST DO IT!
Also an alternative which still has promise.

PS: Real BP seems so easy. The sulphur I bought was a fine powder, the KNo3 is easy to mill, the toilet paper charcoal
is so fragile it's easy to mill as well. Next batch I'll just throw it all in the mill, see no need to pre-mill each component.

If you only shooting muzzleloaders you are home free first try - well done!
I used alcohol / water mix to dampen it at the start but I reckon I make better powder with just straight water - I also add a little dextrin to hold grain structure better. Other than that pretty much same procedure as you describe - and yeah its easy!! We use this screened powder in all front loaders including cap pistols.

[barrabruce]

Well the fireforming loads went well.
My patched tails were too long and didn’t unravel all that great.
I played with lubed and nonlubed patches.
Brightened up the barrel some.
Some patch fragments showed black and yellow deposits a them so i’m assuming I wasn’t getting great ignition.
Maybe it was the leftovers.
I’ll try some more duplex loads down the road.
It was a might breezy at times.
All shots 50m
Last 4 shots with lubed patched made a little cluster in the top left hand corner of the box.
326475
Switched to a smokeless load one of my other ones likes.
Started high then next lower to a small grouping.
I’ll take it.
326476
Going to try some more next time with pb boolits.
Some more pp’ed to help smooth it out I hope.
Cheers

[twinscrewcanoe]

I found this on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MDtkp_UYDA

[twinscrewcanoe]

I have questions on making GP and BP in terms of grain size. What size mesh corresponds to FF and FFF? What size meshes are useful in the process and where do you get them? Thanks.

[Sasquatch-1]

I am surprised this thread hasn't been made a "Sticky".

[HamGunner]

One can make the screened powder any size that one desires and there have been many variations over the years. Not all production facilities have the exact same screen mesh sizes since the screen materials themselves are of various thicknesses, so the actual granule sizes depends upon the thickness of the screen materials. This is very close to what is likely considered the normal screen mesh size of Black Powder.

Powder Grade/Screen Size

Cannon Grade /4-12
1FG /12-20
2FG /16-30
3FG /20-50
4FG /40-100
5FG /100-200

I mostly use 3FG size and I use anything that passes a #20 screen but is caught by my #40 screen. I just separate the fines from it's dust and use that for priming my flinter pans.

I made wooden frames for the stainless steel screens that I got, but don't remember where I got them. Sources for screening can be found in a lot of places. Here is what Duck, Duck, Go came up with.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mesh+screening+material&t=newext&atb=v419-1&ia=web

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I found this on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MDtkp_UYDA

I have it on good authority that whoever made that video is a very handsome man!

I use a stack of these things.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KFS99C2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

They may not translate exactly right but they are relatively inexpensive and do the job.

[2TM101]

I use a stack of these things.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KFS99C2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1
They may not translate exactly right but they are relatively inexpensive and do the job.

I use those same screens and based on where the powder stops at, I classify it like this:

2FA (Cannon Grade) 10
1FG / 20
2FG / 30
3FG / 40
4FG / 60
5FG /110

Not sure why I got a 110 screen instead of 100, but that's what I got. With actual Black Powder I do get dust that goes through that 110 screen, but not with any of the substitutes we have been making. In fact nothing goes through the 60 screen. Not with Golden, Crimson or White (starch) powder, smallest I get is 4F.

I run the cannon grade powder back through the coffee grinder as I have no use for that size. I use my 1F for 45-70. 5F would be for .32 S&W which is the smallest thing I load.

I recently got a CVA Scout in .44 Mag. The barrel on that gun is stainless steel and thick, making it safe and easy to clean - also being a single shot break open makes it easy to get squibs out of the thing if I go too light on the charge. I WAS using my CVA Scout in .45-70 but that thing was pounding my 66 year old shoulder a bit too hard. This is supposed to be fun.

[LAGS]

I use those exact screen sizes to separate my powder.
It works well and does match most factor powder grain sizes.
But I only do BP right now.
But this thread is getting interesting for another kind of powder.

[2TM101]

Homemade powders, from weakest to strongest, near as I can determine:

Golden Powder
White (Starch) Powder
Crimson Powder
Screened Black Powder
Puck & Corned Black Powder
Pyrodex
BH 209 / 777
Sugar / Chlorate Powder

With Black Powder the quality of the Charcoal can make the final product vary quite a bit. TP black powder is more than Pyrodex, but I've also made stuff that was weaker than anything on this list.

Most ballistic testing I have seen puts Pyrodex a little ahead of commercial BP. I have never used 209 or 777 but I think those are a little more yet again

The Sugar / Chlorate powder is at the upper limit for muzzleloaders, and that with loads at half what they would be for BP. If it cycles a 9mm, which it does, its way more than BP. In fact I have heard that you can use it as a direct replacement for Unique.

I don't know where "KNSU" made with Potassium Nitrate instead of Potassium Chlorate fits on this list.

I would assume the homemade Smokeless powders discussed elsewhere on this board would be at the bottom of this list and too powerful for a muzzleloader.

[LAGS]

Thank you for listing all the homemade stuffs level of power.
One other thing that I would like to see for comparisons is how well it cleans up or the amount of dirt or junk that each kind of powder produces.
Plus how are they as far as promoting rust or damage to the metal or finishes of not cleaned the same day , or if a gun is left loaded for any period of time.

[indian joe]

Homemade powders, from weakest to strongest, near as I can determine:

Golden Powder
White (Starch) Powder
Crimson Powder
Screened Black Powder
Puck & Corned Black Powder
Pyrodex
BH 209 / 777
Sugar / Chlorate Powder

With Black Powder the quality of the Charcoal can make the final product vary quite a bit. TP black powder is more than Pyrodex, but I've also made stuff that was weaker than anything on this list.

Most ballistic testing I have seen puts Pyrodex a little ahead of commercial BP. I have never used 209 or 777 but I think those are a little more yet again

The Sugar / Chlorate powder is at the upper limit for muzzleloaders, and that with loads at half what they would be for BP. If it cycles a 9mm, which it does, its way more than BP. In fact I have heard that you can use it as a direct replacement for Unique.

I don't know where "KNSU" made with Potassium Nitrate instead of Potassium Chlorate fits on this list.

I would assume the homemade Smokeless powders discussed elsewhere on this board would be at the bottom of this list and too powerful for a muzzleloader.

just a comment - I dont see any difference between screened and corned blackpowder -- made from the same base meal and compared on a weight basis.......volume loaded ?certainly ...............

[ofitg]

I would assume the homemade Smokeless powders discussed elsewhere on this board would be at the bottom of this list and too powerful for a muzzleloader.

There is (or at least, there was?) a forum member, username "alexzxz"..... in August 2016 he indicated that he was experimenting with Ammonpulver in his Italian percussion revolver - see post #21 in this old thread -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259479-Ammonpulver-Project-Update/page2

Five months later he dropped off the radar, his final post was in January 2017. It makes me wonder if his experiments had an unhappy ending....

[Sandro_ventania]

I am surprised this thread hasn't been made a "Sticky".

I'm surprised too! I think you have to ask an administrator to do this. Could anyone do this?

[Sandro_ventania]

There is (or at least, there was?) a forum member, username "alexzxz"..... in August 2016 he indicated that he was experimenting with Ammonpulver in his Italian percussion revolver - see post #21 in this old thread -

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259479-Ammonpulver-Project-Update/page2

Five months later he dropped off the radar, his final post was in January 2017. It makes me wonder if his experiments had an unhappy ending....

wow... Let's believe he changed sports!

[2TM101]

There is (or at least, there was?) a forum member, username "alexzxz"..... in August 2016 he indicated that he was experimenting with Ammonpulver in his Italian percussion revolver - see post #21 in this old thread

Ammonpulver is seriously last ditch losing the war stuff. No reason for anyone to be making that now, even in Ukraine.

[2TM101]

just a comment - I dont see any difference between screened and corned blackpowder -- made from the same base meal and compared on a weight basis.......volume loaded ?certainly ...............

This is a seriously first draft rough guess. I was hoping for input to improve it

Powders on this list are not evenly spaced by any means. Going by weight BP would be on one line. BH209 and 777 are not the same power level but I have never used either so I was hoping someone could clarify that and tell me which came first.

Sugar/Chlorate, Ammonpulver and the #7 Smokeless should be on their own list as they are NOT black powder substitutes, I might need to make two lists.

[ofitg]

I would note that “black powder” encompasses a wide range of firearm designs, and some designs are more robust than others. The 2001 Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual lists .50 caliber single-shot rifle loads reaching as high as 33,500 PSI pressure.

At the other end of the spectrum, the 1975 Lyman Black Powder Handbook does not include any percussion revolver loads exceeding 11,200 LUP pressure…. With the possible exception of the Ruger Old Army revolver, it’s probably not wise to subject any percussion revolver to pressures higher than 14,000 to 15,000 PSI.

[Sandro_ventania]

This is a seriously first draft rough guess. I was hoping for input to improve it

Powders on this list are not evenly spaced by any means. Going by weight BP would be on one line. BH209 and 777 are not the same power level but I have never used either so I was hoping someone could clarify that and tell me which came first.

Sugar/Chlorate, Ammonpulver and the #7 Smokeless should be on their own list as they are NOT black powder substitutes, I might need to make two lists.

I find this classification you make very funny... For me, what changes from one gunpowder to another is only the quantity and not the type. If I'm using golden gunpowder, it's one amount, if I'm using chlorate with sugar, I use another amount (less obviously). It would even be possible to use smokeless, as long as the load was small enough not to exceed the pressure limits. Or does anyone here believe that 1 grain of smokeless will blow up a muzzleloader? Okay...ok...ok...ok... it's to preserve the lives of irresponsible idiots. I have a friend who says that this is preventing natural selection and that's why they are reproducing everywhere...lol! Sorry...the last part was just a joke!

[2TM101]

I find this classification you make very funny... For me, what changes from one gunpowder to another is only the quantity and not the type. If I'm using golden gunpowder, it's one amount, if I'm using chlorate with sugar, I use another amount (less obviously). It would even be possible to use smokeless, as long as the load was small enough not to exceed the pressure limits. Or does anyone here believe that 1 grain of smokeless will blow up a muzzleloader? Okay...ok...ok...ok... it's to preserve the lives of irresponsible idiots. I have a friend who says that this is preventing natural selection and that's why they are reproducing everywhere...lol! Sorry...the last part was just a joke!

I have no way to tell what pressures these powders actually produce, Other then the gun blowing up meaning it was too much. Without knowing that this is pure guesswork. Even chronograph numbers are not giving me the full picture.

I could put enough 2-component golden powder in my .45 inline to make it work normally. I did, its why I don't have any golden powder now as it took 120 grains per shot.

What I would actually want to see is a by weight BP equivalent value worked out for all of these, where BP=1

So here, by weight, is my rough approximation. This has NOTHING to do with volume. I have personal experience only with the first five on this list, the remaining three are all guesses. 1.0 is standard black powder.

0.50 Golden Powder
0.60 White (Starch) Powder
0.80 Crimson Powder
0.85 "Grey" powder (Manganese)
1.00 Black Powder
1.05 Pyrodex
1.25 BH 209
1.25 777
2.00 Sugar / Chlorate Powder

Any of the first four could be made with Chlorate instead of Nitrate and would be significantly more powerful (and expensive) as they have no Sulfur.

Sugar/Chlorate supposedly can be loaded using tables for Unique. I have seen both it AND Unique used in cap& ball revolvers - with poor results. The pressure curve prevents you from being able to use enough and the resulting velocities are far less than what regular BP would give you.

So again, if anyone reading this thinks my by WEIGHT power equivalents are off, please update this.

[Sandro_ventania]

I have no way to tell what pressures these powders actually produce, Other then the gun blowing up meaning it was too much. Without knowing that this is pure guesswork. Even chronograph numbers are not giving me the full picture.

I could put enough 2-component golden powder in my .45 inline to make it work normally. I did, its why I don't have any golden powder now as it took 120 grains per shot.

What I would actually want to see is a by weight BP equivalent value worked out for all of these, where BP=1

So here, by weight, is my rough approximation. This has NOTHING to do with volume. I have personal experience only with the first five on this list, the remaining three are all guesses. 1.0 is standard black powder.

0.50 Golden Powder
0.60 White (Starch) Powder
0.80 Crimson Powder
0.85 "Grey" powder (Manganese)
1.00 Black Powder
1.05 Pyrodex
1.25 BH 209
1.25 777
2.00 Sugar / Chlorate Powder

Any of the first four could be made with Chlorate instead of Nitrate and would be significantly more powerful (and expensive) as they have no Sulfur.

Sugar/Chlorate supposedly can be loaded using tables for Unique. I have seen both it AND Unique used in cap& ball revolvers - with poor results. The pressure curve prevents you from being able to use enough and the resulting velocities are far less than what regular BP would give you.

So again, if anyone reading this thinks my by WEIGHT power equivalents are off, please update this.

This table is very interesting and it would be good if there were more tests, so we could have more reliable numbers. I say my GP is not half of my BP. my tests here left it close to 0.70 or 0.80. Crimson is almost as good as BP. But I say again, the idea of the table is very good and useful. With it we could develop loads, with any of these powders.

[2TM101]

My apologies to everyone who has been enthusiastic about this stuff. If you still are don't read this.

After months of playing around with this stuff, I'm going to stop. I will use up the ascorbic acid I bought and continue to make Crimson according to the original formula until that runs out, but that will be it.

Homemade screened Black Powder is better than any of this stuff, and ball milled/pucked powder can be as good as commercial. Both are cheaper to make, as well.

Golden Powder - Far too weak to be useful. In a one shot muzzleloader it takes 200% of a black powder load to work, and Crimson is less than 4% different. No reason to make this.

White (Starch) Powder = Garbage. It doesn't ignite. I loaded one chamber of my .36 Navy with this and it would not go off, ultimately I put the entire cylinder in my lead pot, and that in a cage, to melt the lead ball out (the nipples do not come out of this thing and I don't have a screw). By the time the starch powder went off with a weak pop the ball was already melting.

Crimson Powder - I'll use up the materials I have but thats it. Its no easier to make than screened BP but more expensive and less potent. Still, out of all the alternate powder s I tried, this was the best.

"Grey" powder (Manganese) - Never made this, but manganese dioxide is expensive and too much in a mixture makes it unsafe.

Sugar / Chlorate Powder = Unsafe and corrosive. This is not a propellant, it is an explosive. In small enough quantities you can get a semiauto to cycle with this but the bullet is being so damaged in the process of firing you won't hit anything.

Also anything with chlorates, or for that matter Perchlorate, will leave Chlorate salts in your gun and it will corrode quickly.

If something is going to stop you from shooting, its going to be primers, not powder. Brass can be reused many times, we can all make bullets or we would not be on this board, and the one component that would stop you from making black powder is also in all of these alternate formulas. You will always be able to get Sulfur, and make Charcoal. If you can't get Potassium Nitrate you cant make Golden, Crimson or Grey powder either.

Experimenting was fun, but none of these alternatives are better, cheaper or easier to make than actual black powder.

I did a LOT of experimentation, but thats my conclusion.

[Sandro_ventania]

My apologies to everyone who has been enthusiastic about this stuff. If you still are don't read this.

After months of playing around with this stuff, I'm going to stop. I will use up the ascorbic acid I bought and continue to make Crimson according to the original formula until that runs out, but that will be it.

Homemade screened Black Powder is better than any of this stuff, and ball milled/pucked powder can be as good as commercial. Both are cheaper to make, as well.

Golden Powder - Far too weak to be useful. In a one shot muzzleloader it takes 200% of a black powder load to work, and Crimson is less than 4% different. No reason to make this.

White (Starch) Powder = Garbage. It doesn't ignite. I loaded one chamber of my .36 Navy with this and it would not go off, ultimately I put the entire cylinder in my lead pot, and that in a cage, to melt the lead ball out (the nipples do not come out of this thing and I don't have a screw). By the time the starch powder went off with a weak pop the ball was already melting.

Crimson Powder - I'll use up the materials I have but thats it. Its no easier to make than screened BP but more expensive and less potent. Still, out of all the alternate powder s I tried, this was the best.

"Grey" powder (Manganese) - Never made this, but manganese dioxide is expensive and too much in a mixture makes it unsafe.

Sugar / Chlorate Powder = Unsafe and corrosive. This is not a propellant, it is an explosive. In small enough quantities you can get a semiauto to cycle with this but the bullet is being so damaged in the process of firing you won't hit anything.

Also anything with chlorates, or for that matter Perchlorate, will leave Chlorate salts in your gun and it will corrode quickly.

If something is going to stop you from shooting, its going to be primers, not powder. Brass can be reused many times, we can all make bullets or we would not be on this board, and the one component that would stop you from making black powder is also in all of these alternate formulas. You will always be able to get Sulfur, and make Charcoal. If you can't get Potassium Nitrate you cant make Golden, Crimson or Grey powder either.

Experimenting was fun, but none of these alternatives are better, cheaper or easier to make than actual black powder.

I did a LOT of experimentation, but thats my conclusion.

2TM101...your comments are very welcome and sensible. But they are only based on power, right? If someone is looking for other characteristics, perhaps the other powders would be more interesting. Golden or crimson powder, they are less corrosive than BP, cleaner than BP and can use waxes and lubricants used in smokeless powder... this is not possible with BP. And it's also easier to make than BP, you don't need a ball mill that will be left on for at least 12 hours! You won't need to make charcoal. All you need is one pan and you can make the powder in 15 minutes. So, it really depends on what you are looking for. I do all 3, Golden, crimson and BP... I really like doing BP, but the dirtiness of it bothers me sometimes, so I use Golden powder and I'm happy.

[barrabruce]

I loaded some 30-30 with 3.4 grns of shotgun powder and the rest golden powder as a filler and pushed 115 grn paperpatched bullets.
The groups were a little vertical stringy as I didn’t weigh the golden powder but the velocity was a lot better and a big cloud of white smoke lingered for several seconds before it cleared to see the target again.
Non existent recoil and nice visible effect.
Might up the smokeless a little.
One primer failed to fire so I pulled the bullet and tipped the case contents in a new primed case.
So golden and smokeless on top.
It sounded duller but shot significantly higher. More fouling in the case thou.
All good this end.
I will use what I have made up.
I can have some fun and make smoke and not dislocate my shoulder.
Ha

[Sandro_ventania]

I loaded some 30-30 with 3.4 grns of shotgun powder and the rest golden powder as a filler and pushed 115 grn paperpatched bullets.
The groups were a little vertical stringy as I didn’t weigh the golden powder but the velocity was a lot better and a big cloud of white smoke lingered for several seconds before it cleared to see the target again.
Non existent recoil and nice visible effect.
Might up the smokeless a little.
One primer failed to fire so I pulled the bullet and tipped the case contents in a new primed case.
So golden and smokeless on top.
It sounded duller but shot significantly higher. More fouling in the case thou.
All good this end.
I will use what I have made up.
I can have some fun and make smoke and not dislocate my shoulder.
Ha
That channel that makes BP with toilet paper, he did several tests with these duplex loads and he discovered that using PB or GP in our case, first and putting smokeless last, generates more speed. His chronograph confirmed it.

[a.squibload]

If you only shooting muzzleloaders you are home free first try - well done!
I used alcohol / water mix to dampen it at the start but I reckon I make better powder with just straight water - I also add a little dextrin to hold grain structure better. Other than that pretty much same procedure as you describe - and yeah its easy!! We use this screened powder in all front loaders including cap pistols.

Thanks for the encouragement!
I added 3% dextrin to my latest BP batch, the grains/granules are harder & don't turn to dust so easy.
The extent of my testing: it goes POW instead of FOOMP.
I might start using the same screen to get the dust out. Will save dust for next batch.

My previous batches had no dextrin, I figured the granules are so fragile I threw 'em in the ball mill.
Added dextrin. After 3 hours it all looks like fine powder, will run a while longer before screening.

((Saw a vid about making dextrin in a frying pan, works fine, don't have to heat up the oven.))


I started re-reading this thread and figured I didn't cook the GP long enough, tried again tonight.
Threw the 2 previous batches together, added an appropriate amount of charcoal (one batch had none), and some water.
Cooked to the "fudge" stage, sticky mess. Spread out on wax paper. Some of it was already dry, a little crunchy.
It's drying in the garage. I lit a chunk of it, went pretty fast considering it was probably not completely dry.

It is good to have an alternative to BP, and possibly fuel for certain cartridges.
I'm soaking some 45 Colt brass right now, they got a red residue from the GP test. Maybe waited too long to clean them.
Thanks again for all the info.

PS: Just thought as I watched and stirred: if the mix is simmering (bubbles rising),
can we assume it got well above 150°F ? So are we just drying out the water after that point?
If you have time (that's all I have!) couldn't you avoid the Danger Zone as it approaches dryness by
dumping it out? Would take longer to dry without heat but...

[Sandro_ventania]

Thanks for the encouragement!
I added 3% dextrin to my latest BP batch, the grains/granules are harder & don't turn to dust so easy.
The extent of my testing: it goes POW instead of FOOMP.
I might start using the same screen to get the dust out. Will save dust for next batch.

My previous batches had no dextrin, I figured the granules are so fragile I threw 'em in the ball mill.
Added dextrin. After 3 hours it all looks like fine powder, will run a while longer before screening.

((Saw a vid about making dextrin in a frying pan, works fine, don't have to heat up the oven.))


I started re-reading this thread and figured I didn't cook the GP long enough, tried again tonight.
Threw the 2 previous batches together, added an appropriate amount of charcoal (one batch had none), and some water.
Cooked to the "fudge" stage, sticky mess. Spread out on wax paper. Some of it was already dry, a little crunchy.
It's drying in the garage. I lit a chunk of it, went pretty fast considering it was probably not completely dry.

It is good to have an alternative to BP, and possibly fuel for certain cartridges.
I'm soaking some 45 Colt brass right now, they got a red residue from the GP test. Maybe waited too long to clean them.
Thanks again for all the info.

PS: Just thought as I watched and stirred: if the mix is simmering (bubbles rising),
can we assume it got well above 150°F ? So are we just drying out the water after that point?
If you have time (that's all I have!) couldn't you avoid the Danger Zone as it approaches dryness by
dumping it out? Would take longer to dry without heat but...

Friend, if you spread it out to cool and some of it is wet, then you didn't cook it long enough. The minimum temperature should be 250 degrees Fahrenheit. There has to be a color change.
When you cook it and put it out to cool, as soon as it cools down, everything has to be hard as a rock. 100% is hard and ready to use immediately, there is no need to wait for it to dry, as there will be no trace of water left. Don't be afraid to cook it, I've already cooked it until it turned dark brown and it was fine! I've measured it once and it was over 300 degrees fahrenheit and everything was fine. It is essential that all the water dries in the pan.

[a.squibload]

Didn't someone mention a magic temp. of 150°F?

Well it wasn't "wet", but was thick, sticky and spreadable. Some of it solidified immediately.
I wasn't going by color as it had the charcoal in it, looked like chocolate brownie mix.
It wasn't hard as a rock, the thin spread part was easy to break. I'll try shootin some, if it's not great maybe I'll
cook it some more, or just start a new batch. Still have half a ton of vitamin C.

I'll get the hang of this yet!

[Sandro_ventania]

Didn't someone mention a magic temp. of 150°F?

Well it wasn't "wet", but was thick, sticky and spreadable. Some of it solidified immediately.
I wasn't going by color as it had the charcoal in it, looked like chocolate brownie mix.
It wasn't hard as a rock, the thin spread part was easy to break. I'll try shootin some, if it's not great maybe I'll
cook it some more, or just start a new batch. Still have half a ton of vitamin C.

I'll get the hang of this yet!

If I said so, then it was 150° Celsius. (I'm used to the metric system here). Make small batches, I make test batches of only 100 grains. Also do small test batches and make just Golden powder, ascorbic acid and nitrate... that way you get the hang of it, you'll feel the texture is different and when you add other components, like iron oxide, you'll know when it's ready. .