simple Hi-Tek coating

[HI-TEK]

Hi-Tek I was out again today. I noted some material in the lands of the rifling. Not sure if I would call it leading more like fine coating. I shot a few round using PB GC'd bullets down the bore and the material was all but gone. I am not satisfied I am getting the drying I need by having the bullets sit out in the hot sun. Would there be any harm in drying the bullets in my oven set at 100F or would I risk starting a premature cure? The bullets went through the sizing process just fine with no loss of coating evident. The bullets have two coats.

Take Care

Bob

Hi Bob,
70-100 F range may be OK.
I cannot offer any advice as to how long to warm dry, to get adequate drying.
I have advised that pre-warming alloy to about 80-90F before coating certainly helps a lot.
Trick is, coat those warmed alloys quickly, and dump, then allow warmth of alloy, to drive off any moisture.
Leaving it in the sun, to dry, the drying rate, depends on actual temperatures.
It may be sunny, but be also a cold ambient condition, and drying will be inadequate.

[benellinut]

You can get used household stoves from many retailers who haul away old stoves, you may get one for free or for the price of scrap weight. Some sell them for scrap so I wouldn't pay much more then scrap value, even if the heating elements are dead those are cheap online. Hook it up to a PDI for accurate temp control and you'll have a great stove, probably more accurate then it ever was before. I don't have links but I have seen fan kits you can buy to convert a regular stove to a convection. I have a big shop/garage, it's actually an old small barn, although over the years it's become cluttered. I'm in the process of refurbishing my old trailer this weekend and will be making trips to the scrap yard and dump (I'll be looking for a used stove and more lead while there ;-), I plan on setting up a stove in one corner, a cheap vent/fan above the stove and another small bench dedicated to casting. At least that the plans for this summer, God willing I'll be up and running by the end of June.

[ioon44]

Hi-Tek I was out again today. I noted some material in the lands of the rifling. Not sure if I would call it leading more like fine coating. I shot a few round using PB GC'd bullets down the bore and the material was all but gone. I am not satisfied I am getting the drying I need by having the bullets sit out in the hot sun. Would there be any harm in drying the bullets in my oven set at 100F or would I risk starting a premature cure? The bullets went through the sizing process just fine with no loss of coating evident. The bullets have two coats.

Take Care

Bob


Bob
I will share what I've been doing with drying.
I built a drying/ warming cabinet to pre-warm the alloy to about 80-90F before coating. After coating I let air dry outside for about 30min, then put in the cabinet for 1 hour at 120deg F then shut off the heat and leave until the next day.
I have been using the Candy Apple Red with two coats baked 12min at 400deg F with good results.

I have a surface thermometer and found that on my dark red colored wood deck in full sun the temp could reach 130deg F, so drying in the sun can be effected by a lot of variables depending on the ambient temp.
This may be over kill but like you I am tired of re melting boolits.

My last test was with 50 rounds of 158gr RN out of a 4" .38 special at about 800fps only thing in the barrel was a light film which came out with a dry patch, no leading or any thing to brush out.

Have a good day

[HI-TEK]

Bob
I will share what I've been doing with drying.
I built a drying/ warming cabinet to pre-warm the alloy to about 80-90F before coating. After coating I let air dry outside for about 30min, then put in the cabinet for 1 hour at 120deg F then shut off the heat and leave until the next day.
I have been using the Candy Apple Red with two coats baked 12min at 400deg F with good results.

I have a surface thermometer and found that on my dark red colored wood deck in full sun the temp could reach 130deg F, so drying in the sun can be effected by a lot of variables depending on the ambient temp.
This may be over kill but like you I am tired of re melting boolits.

My last test was with 50 rounds of 158gr RN out of a 4" .38 special at about 800fps only thing in the barrel was a light film which came out with a dry patch, no leading or any thing to brush out.

Have a good day

Hi ioon44,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Looks like you have sorted out drying matters.
I am really pleased, that you are getting such good results.
There is really no reason why every one cannot get similar results as you.
Dry film residues normally are from powder burn, and should easily clean out.
Thanks much
Hi-Tek

[ioon44]

My guess is, (if you used liquid coating) that you have obtained a dark golden/greenish colour.
This is due to settled ingredients not being mixed up well enough.
What will happen, that as you use more coating, without mixing all evenly, is, that eventually you will end up with a very thick non glossy coating that will be black, but will end up with too much solids.
Please examine your coating concentrate by using a long screwdriver to see if there is solids on the bottom.
This may tell all.
Using powdered version to a great extent should eliminate uneven mixtures as powder mix is uniformly mixed and milled together.


I have used about 1/2 of the container of Liquid Black with the settled ingredients not being mixed up well enough, kept getting the dark golden/greenish colour.

I put a bullet in the can to start with, but with hand shaking never got it mixed well never did think to use a long screwdriver to check the coating.
So I put the container in a rock tumbler for about 30 min. Then mixed to 5-1-7 and coated some boolits, they came out glossy black and passed the smash test.
I have not had a chance to shoot the last boolits with the well mixed Black coating.


Question, will the last half of the coating be ok to use?

[robertbank]

The issue becomes for the hobby shooter how much time do you want to spend to get a certain result. The Hi- Tek and Powder Coating methods do offer certain advantages over regular lubed bullets. For me the absence of or reduction of smoke is a significant advantage over lubed bullets.

Powder Coating is effective but is or can be tedious work when dealing with 9mm and 38spl bullets in volume.

The Hi-Tel method is very efficient when bullets are dried properly and that seems to be the issue from my experience. The acetone and crush test for me have not proven to be indications of sucess in applying the product as I have found leading to occur despite the bullets passing the test. What is even more frustrating are bullets that after coating and cooking survive sizing yet still lay down a fine film of lead after the 2nd coat.

Pat Marlins PB gas checks may end up being the God send in all of this as I applied them to 50 9MM bullets coated with the Hi-Tek coating and eliminated the leading in the barrel, a barrel that had leading from the same batch when not gas checked. The application of GC's is not, however, a solution for anyone who shoots larger volumes o bullets in practice. Solving the drying problem is the real solution. I will try pre-heating batches of bullets in trays I use to cook the bullets on. That way there will be less handling of the bullets ands time will be saved. In the end this process might be better left to commercial operators with the proper drying methods.

The days I air dried the humidity was around 26% and the air temperature was 23C - 26C in direct sunlight. In short it was very hot in the sun.

Take Care

Bob

[ioon44]

The issue becomes for the hobby shooter how much time do you want to spend to get a certain result. The Hi- Tek and Powder Coating methods do offer certain advantages over regular lubed bullets. For me the absence of or reduction of smoke is a significant advantage over lubed bullets.

Powder Coating is effective but is or can be tedious work when dealing with 9mm and 38spl bullets in volume.

The Hi-Tel method is very efficient when bullets are dried properly and that seems to be the issue from my experience. The acetone and crush test for me have not proven to be indications of sucess in applying the product as I have found leading to occur despite the bullets passing the test. What is even more frustrating are bullets that after coating and cooking survive sizing yet still lay down a fine film of lead after the 2nd coat.

Pat Marlins PB gas checks may end up being the God send in all of this as I applied them to 50 9MM bullets coated with the Hi-Tek coating and eliminated the leading in the barrel, a barrel that had leading from the same batch when not gas checked. The application of GC's is not, however, a solution for anyone who shoots larger volumes o bullets in practice. Solving the drying problem is the real solution. I will try pre-heating batches of bullets in trays I use to cook the bullets on. That way there will be less handling of the bullets ands time will be saved. In the end this process might be better left to commercial operators with the proper drying methods.

The days I air dried the humidity was around 26% and the air temperature was 23C - 26C in direct sunlight. In short it was very hot in the sun.

Take Care

Bob

All of my boolits are from 6-2-92 alloy, works in all the different calibers I load and shoot. My trays are made from 1/4" hardware cloth or screen, this keeps air flowing around the boolits.
Hang in there Bob sometimes it just a small change that can make a difference.

Commercial operators don't all ways get it right either.

[robertbank]

All of my boolits are from 6-2-92 alloy, works in all the different calibers I load and shoot. My trays are made from 1/4" hardware cloth or screen, this keeps air flowing around the boolits.
Hang in there Bob sometimes it just a small change that can make a difference.

Commercial operators don't all ways get it right either.

I agree. I know I am close. I also realize for me at this latitude unless I come up with an alternative drying method this will be a high summer project only. I am very close.

Take care

Bob

[ioon44]

I agree. I know I am close. I also realize for me at this latitude unless I come up with an alternative drying method this will be a high summer project only. I am very close.

Take care

Bob

Trying to coat in the winter months made it a necessity for me to come up with a repeatable drying method to use year round. I am sold on the HI-TEK system so I will be using it full time.
What I built was low cost and doesn't take up much room, had most every thing all ready.

[Ausglock]

How about one of those bathroom heatlamp units that fit in the ceiling.
They also have a fan in them.

[robertbank]

Well won't likely work in the winter but for summer I am thinking you may have hot the nail on the head. I will do some searches and see what is available.

Bob

[benellinut]

Bob,

Just has a thought, what about a simple solar oven? A few pieces of wood, an old window pane, black paint and with some spare time you can make a quick oven that will heat even when chilly outside, just needs sunshine. http://solarovens.org/

[PAT303]

Why not use your baking oven set at 70-100 degree's and bake the boolits for 5mins and then coat. Pat

[robertbank]

Why not use your baking oven set at 70-100 degree's and bake the boolits for 5mins and then coat. Pat

I may try that tomorrow. Worth a try.

Bob

[PAT303]

I coated 4kg worth of boolits today,I put them in the oven for 5mins,they felt warm to touch and the coating worked perfect,smashed half a dozen and all past. Pat

[HI-TEK]

I coated 4kg worth of boolits today,I put them in the oven for 5mins,they felt warm to touch and the coating worked perfect,smashed half a dozen and all past. Pat

Hi Pat 303
Thanks for your post.
Sounds like you are well onto it.
How did they look? It would be great if we saw pictures.
With pre-warming before coating, how was drying rate, and how long did you wait before cooking?
Which coating did you use, and what ratio of materials?
Hi-Tek

[PAT303]

They are working well Joe,what I found was they dry quicker,I got the dull sound after 15-20 secs instead of 20-30 secs.I let them dry for a few hours and then pre-warmed them on the top of the oven and then baked,winter is here in Perth so I'll be doing the heating before coating from now on,I made up a fresh batch of Texas Tea,20mls coating,4mls catalyst and 30mls acetone,the second coat will be baked at 300 degree C for 30mins and water dropped to heat treat,that doesn't seem to affect the coating,they don't lead in my 303 and I'm pushing them up to 1950fps. Pat

[PAT303]

To add I found 2ml per kilo of boolits works for me,quite often a few aren't totally covered but I just give them a third coat or if it's the bottom of the grooves I don't bother. Pat

[robertbank]

Pat with winter upon you in the Southern Hemisphere what exactly constitutes winter? -20C, wind and snow or 15C with occasional rain. From what I recall from my Social Studies classes, a very long time ago Perth's weather is pretty moderate by our standards and I live near the coast.

I plan on trying your suggestion. Today will be 26C and sunny. I am hopeful the pre warming before applying product proves the answer.

Bob

[Ausglock]

Pat with winter upon you in the Southern Hemisphere what exactly constitutes winter? -20C, wind and snow or 15C with occasional rain.

Bob

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Aussie winter along the coastal region is like 0 Deg C of a morning. getting to 18 to 20degC of a day time.
Snow only in the south east mountain area.

In the outback, winter temp gets down to -3 or so. Daytime temps are 20 deg C.

[robertbank]

Well if I ever visit Aussiland I'll leave my snow shoes at home...wait a minute I don't have any of those contraptions either. Not sure I could take your summer though. We get 40C in our back shooting pits up against the mountain and that is plenty hot for me.

Take Care

Bob

[PAT303]

Pat with winter upon you in the Southern Hemisphere what exactly constitutes winter? -20C, wind and snow or 15C with occasional rain. From what I recall from my Social Studies classes, a very long time ago Perth's weather is pretty moderate by our standards and I live near the coast.

I plan on trying your suggestion. Today will be 26C and sunny. I am hopeful the pre warming before applying product proves the answer.

Bob
Bob,our winters aren't really winters compared to yours,I live 200m from the ocean so I have what we call ''cold'',below 10 degree's C and moist ocean air with rain and sometimes heavy morning dew.Your winters are like our summers,you put up with extreme cold,we suffer extreme heat. Pat

[PAT303]

Well if I ever visit Aussiland I'll leave my snow shoes at home...wait a minute I don't have any of those contraptions either. Not sure I could take your summer though. We get 40C in our back shooting pits up against the mountain and that is plenty hot for me.

Take Care

Bob
I drove across the Pilbara region of Oz three years ago,it was so hot even the camels and donkeys were dying,I can't tell you how hot it was because my thermometer maxed out at 50c,I had water bottles on the back seat of my Defender and I recon they were hot enough I could have just added a tea bag and sugar. Pat

[Rodvan]

So I'm still having a slight leading issue with my 9mm and 40 S&W with the red copper powder. The leading isn't bad enough to affect accuracy and the barrel cleans easily with a few passes of Chore Boy wrapped around a bore snake. So yesterday, I recovered a couple of bullets and what I found made me wonder if I'm pushing the bullets too fast. The 9mm average velocity is 1092 & max of 1162 fps. The 40 averages 959 and max of 988 fps. What I found with the 9mm is that the lands and grooves are being stripped clean off the bullet. The bullet started life at .357 and ended up at .340. So do you think my leading is caused by excess speed or another issue?

[PAT303]

I'm no expert but hows the fit?,undersize boolits will do what yours are doing.I just had a little trouble,2kg of boolits got too hot trying to heat treat and they melted,worst part is most were CBE 6.5mm,that mold is a single cavity so production is painfully slow.The second batch worked perfect,three passing the smash and wipe and will be ready to shoot in 2 weeks. Pat

[Rodvan]

I'm no expert but hows the fit?,undersize boolits will do what yours are doing.I just had a little trouble,2kg of boolits got too hot trying to heat treat and they melted,worst part is most were CBE 6.5mm,that mold is a single cavity so production is painfully slow.The second batch worked perfect,three passing the smash and wipe and will be ready to shoot in 2 weeks. Pat
Pat- I slugged the 9mm at .356. I've tried .357 & .358 with the same results. I think the bullets for the 40 are .401 or .402, don't remember. I'm going to try some commercially coated bullets and see what happens. Both guns are vey accurate even with the leading.

[robertbank]

The velocities you quote are not excessive for the 9MM. To soft a lead may be the cause.

Take Care

Bob

[220]

All the soft blokes live near the coast :kidding:
Gets a bit cooler around here
Official temps for the past 4 days



Tue, May 26
-3.0°C
14.1°C
0.0mm


Mon, May 25
-0.5°C
13.8°C
0.0mm


Sun, May 24
-4.8°C
16.0°C
0.0mm


Sat, May 23
-2.8°C
15.0°C
0.0mm

[HI-TEK]

All the soft blokes live near the coast :kidding:
Gets a bit cooler around here
Official temps for the past 4 days



Tue, May 26
-3.0°C
14.1°C
0.0mm


Mon, May 25
-0.5°C
13.8°C
0.0mm


Sun, May 24
-4.8°C
16.0°C
0.0mm


Sat, May 23
-2.8°C
15.0°C
0.0mm




You must be living close to our pollies in Canberra. Winter or summer it is always "cold" down there...lol...lol...:kidding:

[220]

You must be living close to our pollies in Canberra. Winter or summer it is always "cold" down there...lol...lol...:kidding:

Only about 100km in a straight line but thankfully there is a rather large mountain range in between lol

[Ausglock]

220.. You down Jindi way or further out?

[kryogen]

So I'm still having a slight leading issue with my 9mm and 40 S&W with the red copper powder. The leading isn't bad enough to affect accuracy and the barrel cleans easily with a few passes of Chore Boy wrapped around a bore snake. So yesterday, I recovered a couple of bullets and what I found made me wonder if I'm pushing the bullets too fast. The 9mm average velocity is 1092 & max of 1162 fps. The 40 averages 959 and max of 988 fps. What I found with the 9mm is that the lands and grooves are being stripped clean off the bullet. The bullet started life at .357 and ended up at .340. So do you think my leading is caused by excess speed or another issue?

I am having similar issues with COWW only, air cooled.
What alloy are you using ?

Might want to water drop after last bake and let harden 2 days or so.?

I'm personally doing this, + alum gas checks next batch,but my wife just had a baby a few days ago so I'm not going to load or shoot for a while probably.

[robertbank]

I'm personally doing this, + alum gas checks next batch,but my wife just had a baby a few days ago so I'm not going to load or shoot for a while probably.

Probably???? Congratulations. I trust father survived the birth ok. :kidding:

220 must be fall your side of the big E. Your fall mirrors our spring though we normally have rain along with those temperatures. May is a dry month here but June,,,,,,, well it rains.

Did yard work yesterday to please "she who knows best". Have some IDPA work to do today but then off to the range. Temperature will be 26C today and +40C in the back pits at our range.

Tale Care

Bob

[popper]

Rodvan the base of the 9 looks terrible - land backwards? gas cutting? FCD? I use the green & WST - no leading with a 130gr. ~ACWW alloy ~1k fps.

[2wheelDuke]

I baked some boolits today, and might've had my first failed tests.

I was kinda scraping the bottom of the bottle of Gold liquid mix. I mixed it probably a couple months ago now, and have had it sealed with a syringe stuck in the top of the tube.

I had to really scratch for the 2nd coat of my 3rd batch, and it seemed kinda iffy. They pass the smash test OK it seems, but I do notice a bit of color on an acetone soaked rag when I wipe them. The coating doesn't easily scratch off with a finger nail, but I can scratch steaks of coating away, gouging into the lead. Maybe my alloy was on the soft side for that batch.

I think I'd rather play it safe by putting them back in the pot instead of chasing down issues after they're loaded.

[220]

Further north and west Ausglock, Adelong/Batlow area, temps for Batlow it is usually a few degrees cooler than Adelong although we did have a frost every morning the temp at Batlow was below zero just not quite as severe. Summer is the same with max daytime temps for Batlow being about 5c cooler so tops out around 36 instead of 40+.
You wouldnt think 25km would make much difference in temp but 500m in elevation sure does.

Spent yesterday fencing at the farm, rained so not much change in daytime temp but means night time temp is in the low + instead of -.

[Rodvan]

Kroygen-I'm using range scrap that's between 15-16 BHN. All of the bullets age for several weeks before I load them. I'll try the water drop on the next batch and see what happens.

Popper-Yes, the 9 is an ugly looking but it shot great:grin: It didn't land base first, and it is actually in very good condition. No FCD...
Here is a crappy photo of the base.

[PAT303]

Instead of remelting any that didn't work simply tumble lube them and shoot them,I hate wasting good boolits. Pat

[2wheelDuke]

I thought about tumble lubing and shooting them.

[Avenger442]

Loaded all my stuff in the car Monday night to go to the range Tuesday but ended up in the emergency room instead. In the end all is well. But have been told can't lift anything over 1 lb. with right hand until June 10th. So I guess Hi-Tek .223 and .308 report will have to wait.
This might give me a chance to load some more if I can figure out how to do it left handed.

Has anyone used the Foster hollow pointing drills that fit their case trimmer? I have asked this question before and received no reply so if none this time will assume answer is no.

[HI-TEK]

Loaded all my stuff in the car Monday night to go to the range Tuesday but ended up in the emergency room instead. In the end all is well. But have been told can't lift anything over 1 lb. with right hand until June 10th. So I guess Hi-Tek .223 and .308 report will have to wait.
This might give me a chance to load some more if I can figure out how to do it left handed.

Has anyone used the Foster hollow pointing drills that fit their case trimmer? I have asked this question before and received no reply so if none this time will assume answer is no.


Sorry to hear that you were not well.
Hope you recover quickly and completely.
Look after your self.
It seems, that you have really gotten the Hi-Tek bug...lol...lol..:kidding::grin:

[Avenger442]

Sorry to hear that you were not well.
Hope you recover quickly and completely.
Look after your self.
It seems, that you have really gotten the Hi-Tek bug...lol...lol..:kidding::grin:

Thanks Joe.
Missed calling Donnie to get the powders he had coming in. Maybe I can call tomorrow.

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Joe.
Missed calling Donnie to get the powders he had coming in. Maybe I can call tomorrow.

Donnie did mention, that he has had contacts from folk, that were after the recently shipped powdered coating, specifically for the Bronze 500 and the Gunmetal blue/grey.
I did tell him bout your interest as well.
If you contact him, I am sure that Donnie will look after your needs.
Donnie also received in this shipment, powdered coatings, Red Copper, Brick Red, Gold 1035, OLd Gold, (antique Gold) Black.
Also Dark Green (liquid), Aqualube 5000.
So now he can look after all you guys in the US.
All these coatings were tested here by Ausglock, before being sent to the US.
I cant remember if he posted his photos or not. I must stir him up a bit ...lol...lol:lol:
Ausglock has been a little sedate of late with his postings.:sad:

[robertbank]

I just loaded 100 rds of .357mag using 200gr and 158gr RN bullets under Unique and 700X using PB GC's. My Ruger GP-100 suffers from barrel restriction which usually causes minor leading in the first 1/8th" pf the rifling. Bullets are Hi-Tek Gold coated.

I'll let you know how they shoot later today.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Donnie did mention, that he has had contacts from folk, that were after the recently shipped powdered coating, specifically for the Bronze 500 and the Gunmetal blue/grey.
I did tell him bout your interest as well.
If you contact him, I am sure that Donnie will look after your needs.
Donnie also received in this shipment, powdered coatings, Red Copper, Brick Red, Gold 1035, OLd Gold, (antique Gold) Black.
Also Dark Green (liquid), Aqualube 5000.
So now he can look after all you guys in the US.
All these coatings were tested here by Ausglock, before being sent to the US.
I cant remember if he posted his photos or not. I must stir him up a bit ...lol...lol:lol:
Ausglock has been a little sedate of late with his postings.:sad:

Not that I know him personally, but sedate may not be the requisite word for Ausglock. He seems to be a fairly active bloke to me. :guntootsmiley:

I'll give Donnie a call.

[leadman]

Rodvan, are your boolits passing the smash and acetone wipe test on the first coat?

[zomby woof]

I just loaded 100 rds of .357mag using 200gr and 158gr RN bullets under Unique and 700X using PB GC's. My Ruger GP-100 suffers from barrel restriction which usually causes minor leading in the first 1/8th" pf the rifling. Bullets are Hi-Tek Gold coated.

I'll let you know how they shoot later today.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,
had the same thing with my GP100, thread choke. I got a pin gauge, I believe it was a .348". Loaded up some boolits with lapping compound and fired progressively finer compound until the gauge went all the way through the barrel. Stopped the leading.

[Rodvan]

Rodvan, are your boolits passing the smash and acetone wipe test on the first coat?
Yes, Leadman. All of the bullets pass the smash/acetone test, and that's why the leading issue is so frustrating. For now, I'm just coating 9mm and using copperplated for the 40 S&W until I can figure out what the problem is.

[robertbank]

Yes, Leadman. All of the bullets pass the smash/acetone test, and that's why the leading issue is so frustrating. For now, I'm just coating 9mm and using copperplated for the 40 S&W until I can figure out what the problem is.

My experience exactly. The smash/acetone test is no guarantee the bullets will perform as expected. I was out today with my 9MM and the results resulted in severe leading. I loaded some 158gr PB GC Hi-Tek bullets in my Ruger and the barrel was clean as a whistle with velocities of around 1,000 FPS. The bullets from the same batch did lead without the GC's. When I returned home I took, from the same batch of 158 gr RN HT coated bullets and ran them through my RCBS Lubricator with the .358 sizing die installed. I lubed 50 bullets using conventional soft lube. As I was sizing the 50 three - five of the bullets lost coating on a portion of the top or bottom driving band. The bulelts were coated at the same. There is the frustrating part. You don't really know if you have good or bad bullets until you shoot them and from my 9MM experience today the timing is not great.

We shall persist. At worse I will have a bunch of bullets to lube or GC as the case may be. I am going to do about 50 bullets, heating them to 100F before coating them the first time. After air drying I will warm the bullets again for five minutes before baking them at 400F. After sizing I will repeat the process for the 2nd coat. If I still get leading with either the 9MM or 38spl I will go buy a bottle of Scotch, go out on the deck and try to calculate in my head how loing it would take to walk to the nearest star and how many pairs of shoes I would wear out doing it.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

I've got a question, since I have no experience with other lubes. Do you get the same type of failures from the soft lubes and the powder coating? Leading in the barrel sometimes? Or have the soft lubes been used for so long that those kind of things just don't happen? I guess that is more than one question but you get my drift.

I would try something else but this is working for me in the rifles.

[PAT303]

I'd like to add,I've had great success with this coating but yesterday for some reason I managed to put too much coating in the bucket on the first coat,the boolits were completely covered,not blotchy like normal,I figured I'd just bake them and tumble lube them,the coating flaked off the boolits in big pieces and failed completely.I'm inclined to think maybe this could be one of the main reasons people are having trouble,it only takes a mil or two too much coating first up to cause failure,all the other boolits from the same batch,same coating,cook time everything turned out fine,I smashed them flat like a coin and the coating stayed on,the others flaked on the first hit.I use 2ml per kilo of boolits,when they come out they look like ****,the next coat add another ml of coating to get good coverage and happy days.Lastly I warm my boolits just so you can feel the warmth on colder days,that helps. Pat

[Avenger442]

Pat
Agree. Like Joe says two main sources of failure 1. incomplete drying 2. trying to coat too thick.
Just stain um lightly and let dry over night especially on first coat.

[HI-TEK]

I'd like to add,I've had great success with this coating but yesterday for some reason I managed to put too much coating in the bucket on the first coat,the boolits were completely covered,not blotchy like normal,I figured I'd just bake them and tumble lube them,the coating flaked off the boolits in big pieces and failed completely.I'm inclined to think maybe this could be one of the main reasons people are having trouble,it only takes a mil or two too much coating first up to cause failure,all the other boolits from the same batch,same coating,cook time everything turned out fine,I smashed them flat like a coin and the coating stayed on,the others flaked on the first hit.I use 2ml per kilo of boolits,when they come out they look like ****,the next coat add another ml of coating to get good coverage and happy days.Lastly I warm my boolits just so you can feel the warmth on colder days,that helps. Pat

Pat 303,
What you described, is exactly what I have been advising that will happen if using too much on first coat.
My suggestion, is, that if you tend to be a little heavy handed with first coating, then simply dilute mixture more with Acetone or MEK.
So when you may add a little more than ususal, you really will not be adding much too much extra coating but more solvent.
Another suggestion is, that if you have a standard mix you are happy with, and, you add a little too much, no problems at all.
Simply add more uncoated projectiles plus only a little extra Acetone or MEK to your over coated projectiles mixer, and the solvent will re mix all, and re-coat the added non coated projectiles.
Essentially, you use solvent to extend extra coating added onto more projectiles.
Next trick is, dont tumble coat for extended periods, and dry well, before you bake.

The flakes you see and obtained, I can describe to you, with a rough comparison.
If you imagine the coating being like a balloon, shrink wrapped over alloy, that has trapped vapors/moisture/solvent, then placing that into the oven, will make balloon expand due to vapours being heated.
The balloon, exposed to heat will bake very quickly, but is not in contact with alloy so it will cure, but not bonded to alloy.
Upon cooling, it shrinks back onto alloy, but film is not stuck to alloy, hence the flaking off you are obtaining.
Simple really.
Thin coats dry faster even if they dont look great on first coat.
Always dry first coat well before cooking irrespective of how much coating you use.
If you coat with heavy dose, drying will be greatly delayed.

[robertbank]

I've got a question, since I have no experience with other lubes. Do you get the same type of failures from the soft lubes and the powder coating? Leading in the barrel sometimes? Or have the soft lubes been used for so long that those kind of things just don't happen? I guess that is more than one question but you get my drift.

I would try something else but this is working for me in the rifles.

I have used soft lubes for years and have experienced virtually zero leading. My Ruger leads a bit due to barrel constriction but is easily dealt with. I size my 9MM bullets .357 and my 38spl bullets .358. My interest in HI-Tek and PC'd bullets is both eliminate lube smoke. I have the PC process working. Not so much Hi-Tek yet.

Take Care

Bob

[leadman]

Way back in this thread we discussed a white powdery substance that crept out of the cast boolits. Don't know if it is zinc or calcium but it messes up the coating.
So look at any boolits you have not coated for the powdery stuff. I used Zep root killer that has copper sulfate in it to flux the pot with. This seemed to correct the problem.

[PAT303]

Pat 303,
What you described, is exactly what I have been advising that will happen if using too much on first coat.
My suggestion, is, that if you tend to be a little heavy handed with first coating, then simply dilute mixture more with Acetone or MEK.
So when you may add a little more than ususal, you really will not be adding much too much extra coating but more solvent.
Another suggestion is, that if you have a standard mix you are happy with, and, you add a little too much, no problems at all.
Simply add more uncoated projectiles plus only a little extra Acetone or MEK to your over coated projectiles mixer, and the solvent will re mix all, and re-coat the added non coated projectiles.
Essentially, you use solvent to extend extra coating added onto more projectiles.
Next trick is, dont tumble coat for extended periods, and dry well, before you bake.

The flakes you see and obtained, I can describe to you, with a rough comparison.
If you imagine the coating being like a balloon, shrink wrapped over alloy, that has trapped vapors/moisture/solvent, then placing that into the oven, will make balloon expand due to vapours being heated.
The balloon, exposed to heat will bake very quickly, but is not in contact with alloy so it will cure, but not bonded to alloy.
Upon cooling, it shrinks back onto alloy, but film is not stuck to alloy, hence the flaking off you are obtaining.
Simple really.
Thin coats dry faster even if they dont look great on first coat.
Always dry first coat well before cooking irrespective of how much coating you use.
If you coat with heavy dose, drying will be greatly delayed.
Joe,I had a blonde moment,I'm in the process of aging this weeks batch for some military match shooting,I'm taking the coating to 2200fps with three different 200grn+ boolit designs for the 250m yardage,I want to copy the .303 MkVI round. Pat

[Ausglock]

results from third party testing.

An IPSC Master grade shooter tried some of my 125gr SWC bullets during the week.
He send photos of the results.
He stated that he is not a great Group shooter, but was extremely impressed wit these bullets.
All shot from 25Yards from a rest.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20141230_210819.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20141230_210819.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/2015-05-27%2015.56.35.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/2015-05-27%2015.56.35.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/51620551-1f34-4529-924d-292e507029ea.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/51620551-1f34-4529-924d-292e507029ea.jpg.html)

[dsa]

results from third party testing.

An IPSC Master grade shooter tried some of my 125gr SWC bullets during the week.
He send photos of the results.
He stated that he is not a great Group shooter, but was extremely impressed wit these bullets.
All shot from 25Yards from a rest.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20141230_210819.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20141230_210819.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/2015-05-27%2015.56.35.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/2015-05-27%2015.56.35.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/51620551-1f34-4529-924d-292e507029ea.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/51620551-1f34-4529-924d-292e507029ea.jpg.html)

At what velocity was he shooting? Did he experience any fouling or lead deposits in the comp? The bullets look great by the way. I am just curious to what others are experiencing in open guns shooting Hi-TEK coated bullets, thanks.

[Ausglock]

1400fps.
zero fouling. clean comp. zero leading.
We know how to do it down here.

[PAT303]

One thing,notice the loads DON'T have a heavy crimp thats cutting through the coating. Pat

[Ausglock]

yeah. All my 38 Supercomp Major loads run very little crimp.
Just enough to remove the belling.
The only Auto rounds I crimp Heavy are 357Sig.

[dsa]

I am not getting any leading in the bore but I am getting some deposits on the bottom of the 1st baffle in the comp (9mm Major open gun). I'll back off on the crimp and see what happens.

[robertbank]

1400fps.
zero fouling. clean comp. zero leading.
We know how to do it down here.

Perfect! So why not put in print exactly how to do it using both the liquid and powder versions. The instructions need to be clear concise and the process repeatable. The drying aspect seems to be the vaguest. The acetone/smash test proves nothing. I have applied the test, sized bullets after coating with NO evidence of coating shearing off, applied the 2nd coat, baked to 400F and still get barrels filled with lead. I am certain the product works. Unfortunately hoping , relying on luck, and chance are not going to cut it in the hobbyist market.

With the exception of the tropical north a good part of Australia enjoys hot dry warm summers and by the sounds of it the winters are not all that tough either. 40C+ dry heat occurs in N.A. above Mexico in rather short periods of time in relatively small areas so your instructions, from my experiences, might focus on methods to ensure proper drying and product application. Dismiss this suggestion and I suspect the product will be tried by many but not for long.

I am about to try pre-heating the bullets before applying product and after a day in the sun will again warm the bullets for a yet to be determined time to drive off any remaining liquids before baking. The 2nd application of product will follow the same method applied for the first. All of this should produce a suitable bullet.

Knowing how to "do it over here" is nice to know but doesn't serve Hi-Tek's interests "over here" unless you can communicate, preferably in English, clear instructions for the hobbyist that will produce repeatable results. To date you haven't as evidenced by the number of reported variances in results.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Another question, can soft lubes be run in rifles at 2500 to 3000 fps without running out before the end of the barrel?

Hi-Tek advantage over soft lube is no smoke and no grease on dies , etc. Hi-Tek advantage over PC seems to be in the more simple less mess. That is if I have been reading this site correctly.

[Ausglock]

Robabank.

FFS... Do you want me to come and shoot your ammo for you too???

Look at page 19. post 364 I think. That is all you need for instructions.
Not my problem if you live in the frozen north of the planet. Adapt to your environment.

There are 1000's of people using the coating with no issues, all over the world.
Commercial and private users that are getting on with the job.

It is not rocket science. Stop over thinking the problem.
coat as per instructions.
use correct alloy.
don't cheapskate on alloy.
Size to suit the firearm.
Use correct reloading die settings to prevent bullet damage during reloading.
If this all fails, Take up Lawn bowls.:kidding:

[robertbank]

Another question, can soft lubes be run in rifles at 2500 to 3000 fps without running out before the end of the barrel?

Hi-Tek advantage over soft lube is no smoke and no grease on dies , etc. Hi-Tek advantage over PC seems to be in the more simple less mess. That is if I have been reading this site correctly.

Yes.

Bob

[PAT303]

Another question, can soft lubes be run in rifles at 2500 to 3000 fps without running out before the end of the barrel?

Hi-Tek advantage over soft lube is no smoke and no grease on dies , etc. Hi-Tek advantage over PC seems to be in the more simple less mess. That is if I have been reading this site correctly.
I've been shooting Hi-Tek in 26'' tubes,the boolits recovered from the berm still had the coating on them,the only ones that didn't were smashed up revealing lead from inside the boolit,you won't run out of lube with HT. Pat

[Harter66]

Late as usual .
I must say that the instructions seem to be fairly clear to me of course I have taken the time to read all 295 pages @20 posts . Somewhere around 200 pages it clicked about the 5-1-7 mix ratio and I got the part about coke spoons or super tankers as well . 200 C is 395 F and air flow in the oven seems to be somewhere between needed and essential to good results. Also just a stain is enough for the base coat . All ovens are different , don't hook you pid to anything but the coils. Hit it like ya mean it .

There do seem to be some bugs with alloy particulars and certain impurities . Also with water contamination in the solvents. Tests have pushed hytek to 3600 fps . 3 minutes is about what is being achieved in rifles at nominal rifle speeds but pistols are the top proformers. Gas checks are needed in top loads with suitably hard alloies.

The bloody language was fine until about page 260 . The is also some goober that says after 22,000 rounds a bbl was oversized, apparently he was blissfully unaware that the US Army did tests and determined that 30-06 has a bbl life of 30 seconds or roughly 10,000 rounds.

I never did find a link to a load data thread. there's only 10-15 pages of topics so after this marathon that shouldn't be to bad .

[PAT303]

Robert,the coating isn't a silver boolit,if anything else is wrong you will get leading just like using liquid lubes,the coating can't compensate for under size boolits,or using PB instead of GC etc,apply the same loading practises such as sizing to throat dia,a touch off the lands,no heavy crimp,bell the case a thou over boolit dia all the normal stuff.With the coating all the info is here,the amount per kilo,drying time,cooking time,mixture amounts,like Trevor said I think you are thinking too much,KISS. Pat

[robertbank]

BBQJoe..

1. add 2 bullets to your colour resin and shake for a good 5 minutes. (Not applicable for powder)
2. shake the catalyst. (Catalyst is included in powder, Not applicable for those using powder version)
3. empty bottle ready. Add 5 parts colour immediately...IMMEDIATELY... after shaking (Not applicable for powder version)
4. Add 7 parts Acetone and then the 1 part catalyst. (Not applicable for powder version)
5. Put lid on the mixture and shake the ***** out of it for 5 minutes. I use 600ml coke bottles with pop-tops on them. easy to add coating to the bullets. (Not applicable for powder version)
6. Add about 200 bullets to the plastic bucket. lid is NOT needed. (Not applicable for powder version)
7. Shake the 5-1-7-mix and Immediately add a dribble to the bucket of bullets. Replace mixture lid Immediately. (Not applicable for powder version)
8. Shake the bucket of bullets and coating. Remember... you have to have the bullets and coating mixing around just like a cement mixer does. The bottom of the bucket should be wet with coating.
9. Keep shaking, swirling until the rattle of the bullets changes to a dull thumping. you will hear the change really easy.
10. dump the coated bullets onto your drying tray and shake the tray side to side until the bullets have leveled out on the tray. don't worry about them touching. it doesn't matter.
11. If you think there isn't enough colour on the bullet, then you have the coating just right. Leave them alone for at least 10 minutes. then warm them with a hair dryer. (Warming in an even set at 100F has also been suggested as a pre-warming before coating)
12. turn on your oven and pre-heat to 200deg C.
13. place you bullets on the baking tray and spread them around to be even on the tray and place tray in the oven.
14. set the oven timer for 12 minutes. not 6 or 8. But a full 12 minutes (This time varies depemding on your results. If the bullets don't perform you either should leave them in longer or buy a different watch)
15. when the oven turns off, remove the tray of bullets and let them cool. do not touch them until cool.
16. when cool. take 1 bullet. lay it in it's side on a steel base and smash it with a hammer. the coating should not flake off (If it doesn't you know the coating will not flake off when hit with a hammer)
17. Take another bullet and get some acetone on a white cloth and wipe the coated bullet for 30 seconds and see if the colour comes off. if it does. place back into oven and bake for another 5 minutes. ( I have found 12 minutes per bake is enough). (see 14. above bold type)
18. When the bullets are cool, place back in the bucket and repeat steps 6 to 17.
19. when 2nd coat has cooled and has tested OK, Size and shoot (test is smash or acetone)
20. Smile to yourself that you are now up to the same level of technology as we Aussies.
This is really ***** easy to do. the biggest mistake is not shaking immediately before coating or not baking long enough or at a too low temperature. (so if your bullets still lead the barrel you have 500 bullets that you may have not:

1. shaken properly after coating
2. Not baked long enough
3. Used the wrong temperature

For those using the powder version you mix 20 grams pf powder with 100ml of acetone. Apply 5ml of thorughly mixed mixture to 2000 grams of bullets. Apply and bake as above. If it doesn't work add more acetone to mixture or apply less mixture to same amount of bullets. Bake longer or shorter until you luck into something that worked. Repeat.

Trevor I think that pretty much sums up the instructions. You might agree they are not commercial grade instructions. I would suggest Joe clearly write instructions for both products in a new thread. I am sure the head Moderator will be pleased to sticky and lock the post. With the instructions Joe could offer up a short list of causes for specific problems that casters may or might encounter.

The Brits sent the Scots to Canada and the criminals to Australia (Temperate climate in Canada - hot as _____ in Australia. The English Judges must have been a religious lot though the Scottish Clearings played a significant role in developing what is now Manitoba. :kidding:

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

Perfect! So why not put in print exactly how to do it using both the liquid and powder versions. The instructions need to be clear concise and the process repeatable. The drying aspect seems to be the vaguest. The acetone/smash test proves nothing. I have applied the test, sized bullets after coating with NO evidence of coating shearing off, applied the 2nd coat, baked to 400F and still get barrels filled with lead. I am certain the product works. Unfortunately hoping , relying on luck, and chance are not going to cut it in the hobbyist market.

With the exception of the tropical north a good part of Australia enjoys hot dry warm summers and by the sounds of it the winters are not all that tough either. 40C+ dry heat occurs in N.A. above Mexico in rather short periods of time in relatively small areas so your instructions, from my experiences, might focus on methods to ensure proper drying and product application. Dismiss this suggestion and I suspect the product will be tried by many but not for long.

I am about to try pre-heating the bullets before applying product and after a day in the sun will again warm the bullets for a yet to be determined time to drive off any remaining liquids before baking. The 2nd application of product will follow the same method applied for the first. All of this should produce a suitable bullet.

Knowing how to "do it over here" is nice to know but doesn't serve Hi-Tek's interests "over here" unless you can communicate, preferably in English, clear instructions for the hobbyist that will produce repeatable results. To date you haven't as evidenced by the number of reported variances in results.

Take Care

Bob

Thanks for your suggestions.

Can I point out, that I supply a detailed coating instruction (in English) for both liquid and powdered systems.
You have at least, two local/nearby suppliers, (who also speak English) of both liquid and powdered products, from whom you can obtain products and practical assistance.
They both are local manufacturers, and are also users and suppliers of the liquid and Powdered Hi-Tek coatings.

As they use the products themselves, and are always available, and are very pro-active with trying to sort out any problems with their customers.

They also supply a detailed written instruction in English, on how to get best results with coatings and those instructions are written in " English", and instructions are based on user experience with the products.

It is unfortunate, that some folk dont seem to take notice of instructions, and try to do all sorts of modifications to coat, which is outside what is recommended or suggested.

Because of the many variables, due to user, climate, solvent type, ovens, alloys, drying conditions, etc etc etc, and, as your had requested, how can such a "simple" written instruction, and written in "English" US or UK version, be expected to cope with every variable ?????

I cannot understand, why many thousands of people world wide, both hobbyists and commercial casters obtain great results, but, for some peculiar undetermined reason, a few, just dont seem to get those same results.

May be, it would be simpler and more cost effective, if users who cannot obtain good results with coating themselves, simply buy commercially produced products.
If commercially supplied products dont work in desired end uses, unfortunately, user may have no other option but to revert back to conventional grease/wax type lubes or other types that is found satisfactory.

It is quite possible, that despite Hi-Tek working in 99.99% of cases, but for the last 0.01%, it will not be satisfactory.
I am sure that such scenario exists for all products that had been tried and used.
Apology for long winded reply.

[Avenger442]

I've been shooting Hi-Tek in 26'' tubes,the boolits recovered from the berm still had the coating on them,the only ones that didn't were smashed up revealing lead from inside the boolit,you won't run out of lube with HT. Pat

Pat
You really don't have to convince me about the Hi-Tek. I've shot the .308 and .223 with H4895 .5 g short of max load with no leading. Love this stuff.

I guess that because I'm a newbie at shooting bullets that I make myself and have never used another lube or coating I was just wondering if you could get near 3000 fps with soft lubes. I probably should not have semi-hijacked the thread so I asked it in another and got a very good answer from Yodogsandman with test results. Sometimes I spend too much time looking at this thread and forget there are better places to ask a question. This place is great for guys like me.

Order coming from Donnie for the Bronze 500 and the one I really want to see 007 Gunmetal Blue Grey. Have always associated that color with Bond.

[HI-TEK]

Pat

Order coming from Donnie for the Bronze 500 and the one I really want to see 007 Gunmetal Blue Grey. Have always associated that color with Bond.

Great news.
Donnie is a great guy and very helpful.
I just wanted to give you a heads up with Gunmetal colour.
This is a very sneaky colour, and colour appears to be hiding. When you look at the powder, it looks very bland and non coloured.
When mixed with solvent, it also has little colour. BUT, when you start to coat in your container, as you mix/tumble, the colour develops and deepens.
Baking the dried coating, deepens colour again.
It is like magic...lol...lol (snake oil as some folk would say) lol lol:kidding:

[Ausglock]

the longer you shake it, the darker it gets.

[HI-TEK]

the longer you shake it, the darker it gets.

That is correct, as you say and found, but it also must be kept in mind, shake coating for too long, will make bad looking rough finished coatings, as it will become tacky in mixing containers, which will not level out and not form nice glossy and smooth finish with baking.
May be you can load a video of how you do it with Gunmetal????? Is it possible????:razz:

[Ausglock]

Ummmm.... NO!!!

[HI-TEK]

Ummmm.... NO!!!

Fair enough.... just a thought....

[Gremlin460]

Ummmm.... NO!!!

Grumpy old NSW coot!!! :P

[HI-TEK]

Pat
Order coming from Donnie for the Bronze 500 and the one I really want to see 007 Gunmetal Blue Grey. Have always associated that color with Bond.


Just attached the details of photo of Gunmetal, mixed in solvent, (Note colour of liquid), and alloy coated & baked twice, with smash test, (note final developed colour on alloy).
Well I should have called it Bond colour lol lol, but it did remind us of a Gunmetal Blue/Gray type colour. Link is to photo. (I hope it works as I am a newbie at Photobucket)
http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/media/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg.html? sort=3&o=0

[Ausglock]

Gunmetal Grey

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/media/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/media/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg.html)

Thanks Trev.
I will have to work on my Photobucket skills. It is awful.
I need expert guidance.
When clicking on link I supplied, it gets the photo as well as others in my list.
I almost got there but not quite, as I dont know how to simply chose/select a photo and paste it.

[Ausglock]

you need to click on IMG not DIRECT in photobucket.

[robertbank]

Joe the instructions suggest getting 100 bullets ready to coat using 1ml of mixture then suggest 1ml per 400 grams. The variance in these instructions is a factor of 2 when using 125gr 9MM bullets. You can check the math if you desire. My last batch of bullets dried for four hours in the sun when the air temperature was 26C or 78.8F with humidity at 26%. I would suggest this should be ideal conditions. Not desert like but hardly cold or humid.

The instructions make no mention of pre warming bullets and sizing sizing should occur just before loading not the first. The instructions also indicate that if you don't get the desired results then change the mixture. Terrific.

I will persist until I get it right. I would suggest most won't.

The two tests listed do not ensure the bullets are going to work. They only ensure the two bullets you tested pass the test. It only takes a few bullets to lead a barrel. Two days ago 50 turned my M&P 9MM barrel into a lead mine. The batch passed the smash and wipe test. I suspect drying is the problem as the mixtures have been measured precisely. Heat would not be a factor because all indications are longer baking times only hardens the coating with a darker appearance. I'll talk to Donnie in the morning. The worse case scenario is I will end up with a couple of coffee cans full of bullets requiring lubing.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Gunmetal Grey

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jandmspecializedproductsHi-Tek/media/Second%20Coat%20Blue%206001R_zpsyrcyqyfj.jpg.html)

Strange, looks like blue cows milk in the container. Magic milk:mrgreen:.
Bond always had his gadgets. The thing I liked about him most.

[Ausglock]

Drying in cooler times.
Currently we have here day time temps of 21 to 25deg C.

Coat and let dry in these temps with a fan blowing across the trays of bullets sitting on a metal bed frame to allow the air to get to all surfaces for 10 minutes.
then take the tray and place on top of the oven while the first tray is baking.
swap trays and repeat.
zero failure.
20,000 were processed like this on saturday.
what does that tell you???
5,000 of these were with the Bronze 500. 5,000 with Candyapple red. The rest were coated with Kryptonite Green.

[kryogen]

Um, first it tells me that I should move to australia....
I seem to have much less time to play in the garage, all I seem to do is feed the baby, change diapers, fill bottles, clean bottles, change the baby, ....

[Gremlin460]

Um, first it tells me that I should move to australia....
I seem to have much less time to play in the garage, all I seem to do is feed the baby, change diapers, fill bottles, clean bottles, change the baby, ....

A Baby is a collection of uncontrollable orifices for the first few years, eventually you will get the holes under control one by one as time goes on, then you will find later in life the two on the side of the head are unresponsive or work intermittently, and by 15> years the one in the front of the head wont stop working.

Just a heads up.

[PAT303]

Gremline,without doubt the best explanation of children I have ever heard. Pat

[Ausglock]

Um, first it tells me that I should move to australia....
I seem to have much less time to play in the garage, all I seem to do is feed the baby, change diapers, fill bottles, clean bottles, change the baby, ....

As they say...... Can't do the time?...Don't do the crime....:kidding:

[Avenger442]

A Baby is a collection of uncontrollable orifices for the first few years, eventually you will get the holes under control one by one as time goes on, then you will find later in life the two on the side of the head are unresponsive or work intermittently, and by 15> years the one in the front of the head wont stop working.

Just a heads up.


But the best part is when they get married and have a 16 year old of their own that wants to die their hair purple. We love them anyway no matter what. And that is the amazing thing. (I've resisted the urge to get some of that wash out purple die do my hair and go over to their house.)

[ioon44]

Joe the instructions suggest getting 100 bullets ready to coat using 1ml of mixture then suggest 1ml per 400 grams. The variance in these instructions is a factor of 2 when using 125gr 9MM bullets. You can check the math if you desire. My last batch of bullets dried for four hours in the sun when the air temperature was 26C or 78.8F with humidity at 26%. I would suggest this should be ideal conditions. Not desert like but hardly cold or humid.

The instructions make no mention of pre warming bullets and sizing sizing should occur just before loading not the first. The instructions also indicate that if you don't get the desired results then change the mixture. Terrific.

I will persist until I get it right. I would suggest most won't.

The two tests listed do not ensure the bullets are going to work. They only ensure the two bullets you tested pass the test. It only takes a few bullets to lead a barrel. Two days ago 50 turned my M&P 9MM barrel into a lead mine. The batch passed the smash and wipe test. I suspect drying is the problem as the mixtures have been measured precisely. Heat would not be a factor because all indications are longer baking times only hardens the coating with a darker appearance. I'll talk to Donnie in the morning. The worse case scenario is I will end up with a couple of coffee cans full of bullets requiring lubing.

Take Care

Bob


HI Bob

I would like to share some experience I have had with HI-TEK and M&P 9mm barrels. I have a friend who has 2 M&P 9mm's and has had the same results as you with the leading shooting coated boolits.

These same coated boolits shot clean out of my Glock 9mm's both factory and lone wolf barrels as well as other 9mm and .38cal guns.

What we found with the M&P barrels was that they measured .357" and were extremely rough and a lot of tool marks. These leaded really bad with lubed boolits also.


The M&P barrels are being lapped and polished and are starting to shoot the coated boolits better.

I don't know if it is possible for you to shoot your coated boolits that pass the smash test out of other of guns as a test.

The boolits are two coats of Candy Apple Red and Red Coped powders 5ml of coating to 2kg of boolits in an open bucket, baked 12min at 400deg usually the next day after being dried for 1 hour at 120deg. All 6-2-92 alloy.

Hope this helps, I am not trying to bash M&P barrels just sharing what I have seen.

[benellinut]

HI Bob

I would like to share some experience I have had with HI-TEK and M&P 9mm barrels. I have a friend who has 2 M&P 9mm's and has had the same results as you with the leading shooting coated boolits.

These same coated boolits shot clean out of my Glock 9mm's both factory and lone wolf barrels as well as other 9mm and .38cal guns.

What we found with the M&P barrels was that they measured .357" and were extremely rough and a lot of tool marks. These leaded really bad with lubed boolits also.


The M&P barrels are being lapped and polished and are starting to shoot the coated boolits better.

I don't know if it is possible for you to shoot your coated boolits that pass the smash test out of other of guns as a test.

The boolits are two coats of Candy Apple Red and Red Coped powders 5ml of coating to 2kg of boolits in an open bucket, baked 12min at 400deg usually the next day after being dried for 1 hour at 120deg. All 6-2-92 alloy.

Hope this helps, I am not trying to bash M&P barrels just sharing what I have seen.

I have a Beretta 92FS that also has a rough finish in the bore, it's like looking through a rolled up piece of 400 grit sand paper. I sent it back to Beretta and they told me it was normal and within specs. It copper fouls quickly, there is no way I would ever shoot anything but jacketed in it. It has smooth out a little after 500 rounds, can't lap it because it's chrome lined so I have to live with it. It's the roughest barrel I've ever owned other then a couple 60-70 year old mil serp rifles.

[Ausglock]

S&W M&P 9mm are very popular here in OZ for IPSC Production division.
All shoot commercially coated bullets with no issues.
Bullets are sized .356.

[ioon44]

I am sure all S&W M&P 9mm are not rough like the ones I have dealt with, but these were .357" and lots of tool marks but with lapping and .358" boolits they are doing better.

[robertbank]

Good to hear Trevor. I have used a M&P FS in IPSC but I don't like to get stuck with the 5#+ trigger when I could be shooting my CZ going from a 5#+ DA to a 3.5# Sa trigger. The latter makes the longer B Zone plates somewhat easier to smack. I don't shoot much IPSC anymore due to back problems but do shoot a lot of IDPA and when I am not shooting my GP-100/686 Smith I pound the BGs with a M&P Pro 5".

I spoke to Donnie this morning and he recommended a third coat on the bullets. I have a sample now with a third coat and 50 9MM and 50 38spl loaded and soon will be off to the range. The severe leading I am getting is towards the front of the barrel which might indicate more coatin g is called for. He also suggested if the thid coat does not do the trick was to increase my powder to acetone ratio by 10% which would bring it up to 23 grams per 100 ml of acetone. I am hoping the third coat does the trick. He also indicated the drying time was certainly adequate. 80F with low humidity is almost a 10 minute dry. Acetone evaporates at room temperature and sitting on hardware cloth with the sun beating down helped along with a slight breeze dries things up quickly. In addition as the oven was heating I had a rack of bullets sitting on the top of the oven to further insure complete drying.

Take care

Bob
ps the Gold is more Gold with the third coat and the green is definitely greener and nice and shiny. Cool.

[andre3k]

Joe the instructions suggest getting 100 bullets ready to coat using 1ml of mixture then suggest 1ml per 400 grams. The variance in these instructions is a factor of 2 when using 125gr 9MM bullets. You can check the math if you desire. My last batch of bullets dried for four hours in the sun when the air temperature was 26C or 78.8F with humidity at 26%. I would suggest this should be ideal conditions. Not desert like but hardly cold or humid.

The instructions make no mention of pre warming bullets and sizing sizing should occur just before loading not the first. The instructions also indicate that if you don't get the desired results then change the mixture. Terrific.

I will persist until I get it right. I would suggest most won't.

The two tests listed do not ensure the bullets are going to work. They only ensure the two bullets you tested pass the test. It only takes a few bullets to lead a barrel. Two days ago 50 turned my M&P 9MM barrel into a lead mine. The batch passed the smash and wipe test. I suspect drying is the problem as the mixtures have been measured precisely. Heat would not be a factor because all indications are longer baking times only hardens the coating with a darker appearance. I'll talk to Donnie in the morning. The worse case scenario is I will end up with a couple of coffee cans full of bullets requiring lubing.

Take Care

Bob

I've been at this since February and now I'm finally getting consistent results. This also included about firing 2k test rounds through various pistols looking for leading, smokiness and smell. A lot is determined by your weapon. The main factors causing my initial failures were inconsistent oven temps and not enough drying time. I have to set my oven to 425 to maintain a 400 degree temp. Also, 4 hours is my minimum drying time but I usually dry over night. I use 1ml per kg for 9mm and 40's for the first coat, then 2ml per kg on subsequent coats. For 45's I use 2ml per kg on all coats. 3 coats gives me the best results with almost no leading and very minimal smoke. I do all of my testing at an indoor range so I probably notice smoke and odor more than most people.
I just had to work with what I had and used Donnies directions and the advice here as baselines and not as Gospel and adjust and tweaked things to meet my needs and the equipment i'm using.

[PAT303]

I have a couple of pasta sauce jars full of boolits that have failed coating on them,I tumble lube them and shoot them at gongs for practice,too much coating on the first coat or not drying them enough was my biggest problem when I first started. Pat

[Avenger442]

I have to make a correction to a previous post that I made. Someone had asked what my best group was with my 308 I told them 1 3/4" and posted a photo of that test. Actually below is my best group.

141068

Your going to have click on to enlarge and read target. If my calculations are correct based on load data fps these were moving at about 2600 fps between 35000 and 40000 psi. That's a Lee C309-160R bullet three coats of Hi-Tek with 41 gr H4895 out of my Granddaughters scoped Remington 700 bull barrel deer rifle from lead sled.

Guys it is achievable if you just keep at it.

[PAT303]

Can't argue with that. Pat

[benellinut]

I have to make a correction to a previous post that I made. Someone had asked what my best group was with my 308 I told them 1 3/4" and posted a photo of that test. Actually below is my best group.

141068

Your going to have click on to enlarge and read target. If my calculations are correct based on load data fps these were moving at about 2600 fps between 35000 and 40000 psi. That's a Lee C309-160R bullet three coats of Hi-Tek with 41 gr H4895 out of my Granddaughters scoped Remington 700 bull barrel deer rifle from lead sled.

Guys it is achievable if you just keep at it.

Nice! Are those with or without a gas check?

[Avenger442]

Gas checked. I have always understood that if I was going to run that kind of pressure in a rifle I need to gas check the bullet. I'm assuming you are asking because they may lead without gas check. I do have some of the same bullets coated with no gas checks. I had thought about shooting them. Just to see if they lead, I may load a few over the same loads and shoot them last on my next trip to the range. Problem is, my Granddaughter has talked with me about not using her gun for testing. My new 308 has not reached the same performance as to grouping as the bull barrel yet. I'll get there I believe but may have to change some things.

Also need to note that this is not 20 BHN lead but more in the 15-16 BHN can't remember exactly. I try to test what I might use to hunt with so, in the 308, I shoot the medium. I have been shooting some 20+ BHN Hi-Teked in 223 with OK results. I bought it just to test with. Too heavy for squirrel and rabbit and too light for larger. It is great on Beaver in the lake. With Federal Gold Match this gun has shot 1" groups and with a better shooter I believe could do under that.

[benellinut]

Gas checked. I have always understood that if I was going to run that kind of pressure in a rifle I need to gas check the bullet. I'm assuming you are asking because they may lead without gas check. I do have some of the same bullets coated with no gas checks. I had thought about shooting them. Just to see if they lead, I may load a few over the same loads and shoot them last on my next trip to the range. Problem is, my Granddaughter has talked with me about not using her gun for testing. My new 308 has not reached the same performance as to grouping as the bull barrel yet. I'll get there I believe but may have to change some things.

I was more curious about accuracy, how well a GC boolit would shoot without a GC. I have a couple M1 Garand's I love to shoot, I have a couple years worth of ammo left from the stock pile I bought long ago from the CMP but when that's gone I'll be reloading for them. I wish I had bought a lot more ammo, it was about $67 shipped for a spam can of either 240 loose or 194 on en bloc clips in bando's, I bought both. Good Greek HXP ammo too, and the brass is good stuff, been saving it all and was given more from a buddy who shot it and doesn't reload.

I'll be interest to read more of your posts about this bullet.

[Avenger442]

We'll try to find out.

I'm not that into the older guns. The ones I have that don't have sentimental value ( like Dad and Grandads guns) are for sale to finance my hobbies. My Dad always had an admiration for the Garand he carried one in WW II. He said he wished he had one to deer hunt with instead of the Enfield.

[robertbank]

I had mixed results from my third coating. The good news my 38spl bullets performed flawlessly. The barrel was squeaky clean after 50 rounds. Good news there. The bad news is the 9MM bullets failed again. Remember both bullets were t=prepared EXACTLY the same way on the same day with exactly the same mixture and exactly the same drying time and baked at the same temperature for exactly the same length of time.

I want to talk to Donnie this morning. The 9MM is a high pressure round and requires a bullet harder than the 38spl does. When we bake our bullets for 10 minutes at 400F and air cool them we end up annealing the bullets aka softening them. Over time they may return to the hardness they started at but for some time after they are significantly softer. Depending on what Donnie thinks I may try to bajke the bullets for an hour at 400F and water quench them to harden them. Not sure that is the cure because others have used the M&P Pro with these bullets without encountering severe leading. Too, Donnie mentioned the barrel might be the problem and I may try these bullets in a couple of my other 9MM pistols (CZ & Tanfanglio).

As others have suggested the worse case scenario is the bullets I have can always be lubed and shot for practice.

As a side note the issue was with the Gold mixture on the 9MM bullets while the Gold worked fine on the 38spl.

I also have some 38spl bullets done in the Green with three coats on them. They are shiny and ready to go. I may try some 9MM bullets using the green and see how they work out using the same process so far used with the Gold.

The saga continues with a light at the end of the tunnel and I don't think it is a train.

Take care

Bob
ps After talkimg to Donnie yesterday I am satisfied drying is not a problem. 80F with humidity at the mid 20's with a slight breeze dries things very quickly. Acetone evaporates at room temperature.

[ioon44]

, Donnie mentioned the barrel might be the problem and I may try these bullets in a couple of my other 9MM pistols (CZ & Tanfanglio).

.[/QUOTE]

Hi Bob

Just wondering, What does your M&P 9mm barrel look like inside?


What alloy are you using?

[robertbank]

HI

The barrel is a new 1 - 10 twist 9MM I got from S&W. I replaced the original 1-18 twist with the more conventional 1 - 10 twist for the 9MM. I shot 50 rds. After each 10- rd mag I ran a brush through the barrel. and right from the first 10 rds the barrel showed lead deposits about an inch from the muzzle. With each 10 rd mag the leading go worse. After 50 rds all the grooves were pebbled with lead deposits. Quite thick actually. It will take a few passes with the Lewis Lead remover and some scrubbing to clean the barrel completely. Once thoroughly cleaned I will run a patch or two of Lead Away patches followed by Hoppes soaked patches followed by dry patches to ensure the barrel is completely free of lead. I may try my CZ 75 Shadowline and CZ 85 Combat as a test platform next time but the M&P PRO s what I prefer to use in IDPA SSP so it is that gun I would like to get shooting these bullets in.

Take Care

Bob

[Ausglock]

Does the 1:18 barrel shoot them OK?
1:10 is fast for a 9mm. Especially with Mystery metal alloy. Even with 2.6.92 hardball that is a coating stripper twist.
Mine are around the 1:16
My 357sig is 1:32

[robertbank]

Does the 1:18 barrel shoot them OK?
1:10 is fast for a 9mm. Especially with Mystery metal alloy. Even with 2.6.92 hardball that is a coating stripper twist.
Mine are around the 1:16
My 357sig is 1:32

Trev most of the European 9MM guns are 1 - 10 twist barrels. My Tanfoglio, CZ and a STI I had/have all had 1 - 10 twist barrels. The CZ Shadow, the most popular pistol in IPSC Production worldwide has a 1 - 10 twist barrel. All new S&W barrels in 9MM are now produced with 1 - 10 twist barrels. As you may be aware the M&P pistols garnered a spotty reputation for accuracy in the 9MM platform and I am told Smith made the move to the more conventional 1 - 10 twist to improve accuracy using 124 and 147 gr bullets.

After talking to Donnie the next batch of bullets I do for the 9MM will be water quenched right from the oven after the third coat. I hope to reverse some of the annealing that takes place by heating the bullets and then air cooling them. I will also be testing them in my CZ 85 Combat rather than my MP PRO. I am also doing a fresh batch using the Green powder. They will be coated, baked, coated, baked, sized then coated and baked.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care
ps CZ pistols are 1 - 9.7" twist barrels on the conversion from metric.
Bob

[Shotgundrums]

As you may be aware the M&P pistols garnered a spotty reputation for accuracy in the 9MM platform and I am told Smith made the move to the more conventional 1 - 10 twist to improve accuracy using 124 and 147 gr bullets.


They told you that would fix there accuracy issues, huh?.... It sure does sound like a smith and Wesson answer. Reprogramming the turn ratio on the broach cutting is far cheaper than making the dimensional changes to what a 9mm barrel should be. 1:16 barrels will stabilize and shoot accurately the 124s and 147s.

[robertbank]

They told you that would fix there accuracy issues, huh?.... It sure does sound like a smith and Wesson answer. Reprogramming the turn ratio on the broach cutting is far cheaper than making the dimensional changes to what a 9mm barrel should be. 1:16 barrels will stabilize and shoot accurately the 124s and 147s.

Their original barrels for the M&P 9MM were 1 - 18 I think. Not sure what the issue is the Europeans have been producing 9MM longer then anyone else and they have been producing 9MM guns with 1 - 10 barrels since Christ was a Corporal. I have never experienced leading in any of my 9MM guns using soft lube. I size my lead bullets .357 and the bullets seem to go in the general vicinity of where I am aiming most of the time. I am trying .356 with the Hi-Tek coating based upon my discussion with Donnie. I will also see what water quenching will do for me as well. The 9MM is a high pressure round and I suspect my alloy might be to soft after it comes out of the oven and then air dried. We shall see I have the time and for the moment the will.


Take Care

Bob
ps I got one coat of green applied and baked this PM. Should get the 2nd coat baked and sized tomorrow. Cooler with rain in the forecast so it might be a day of casting.

PPs I t should be said Glock 17 barrels are 1 - 10 twist (Rounded the conversion)

[HI-TEK]

Robert Bank

If possible, can you try to capture/recover some shot alloys and send a picture?
This should tell me a lot, especially if captured in a water tank or similar, so projectile is reasonably intact after being shot.
I wish to examine surfaces after alloy is shot.
Hi-Tek

[220]

Here's another group from the 375H&H son shot on the weekend.
Only 3 shots and 50m but shows promise, 100m groups were around 1.5" ran out of time to test at 200
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2015-06/2d5154c6.jpg

[kweidner]

Here's another group from the 375H&H son shot on the weekend.
Only 3 shots and 50m but shows promise, 100m groups were around 1.5" ran out of time to test at 200
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2015-06/2d5154c6.jpg
Very nice! I get very similar groups from my 220gr 300 BO. Recently shot it out to 400yds. 92-6-2 and HT gold. I am running suppressed and just love it. I need to figure out how to post videos. I also set camera at 200 and all you hear is the bullet hit the plate. No report. I had a scope go south and will send it off to get fixed. I was running 1/2 MOA to 1MOA at 1,2,and 300. Needed more elevation so put on a larger target scope with big tube. It is wandering all over the place. Gonna put smaller scope back on and re work videos while big tube gets fixed.

Trev your right fast twists can be bullet killers with softer stuff. I have an HP version of mold and it is very picky about powder. It likes a gradual build of pressure. If you use fast powders it will go from MOA to nearly keyhole. Boolit and coating still in tack but twist just kills accuracy on softer stuff with wrong powder. It works OK with a softer push so to speak.

[ioon44]

Drying in cooler times.
Currently we have here day time temps of 21 to 25deg C.

Coat and let dry in these temps with a fan blowing across the trays of bullets sitting on a metal bed frame to allow the air to get to all surfaces for 10 minutes.
then take the tray and place on top of the oven while the first tray is baking.
swap trays and repeat.
zero failure.
20,000 were processed like this on saturday.
what does that tell you???
5,000 of these were with the Bronze 500. 5,000 with Candyapple red. The rest were coated with Kryptonite Green.

Ausglock
I have some questions about your directions you posted on page 19 #366.
11. If you think there isn't enough colour on the bullet, then you have the coating just right. Leave them alone for at least 10 minutes. then warm them with a hair dryer.

Just wondering how long do you warm with the hair dryer and how hot do the boolits get?
When you the tray and place on top of the oven while the first tray is baking how hot do these get?

This may be an area that people over look in the coating process.

I built a drying/warming cabinet with hot air flowing through it to pre warm the boolits for coating(90deg F) and to force the drying. This brings the boolit temp to 120deg F for 1hour, this is most likely longer than needed but I am having zero failure rate.

This way I can do about 2,000 boolits at a time.

I use 6-2-92 alloy, not straight WW.

[robertbank]

Robert Bank

If possible, can you try to capture/recover some shot alloys and send a picture?
This should tell me a lot, especially if captured in a water tank or similar, so projectile is reasonably intact after being shot.
I wish to examine surfaces after alloy is shot.
Hi-Tek

Joe if I can find something to shoot them in I will do it for you and I have your address and will send the bullets to you. If I can't find a vessel to shoot them into I know once the snow hits we can recover bullets for you. Four to five feet of snow stops most handgun bullets. That will be seven months from now so will look for an alternative to snow. I might be able to rig up a polythene capped pipe arrangement that will work.

It is wet and rainy today and cooler so I will be catching up on my casting today. I know I am close on the 9MM bullets so no reason to be concerned. When the answer is in front of you and you still don't catch the ring one gets frustrated. I am certain I have the 38spl solved the 9MM will soon be as well. Hot weather returns on the week-end. We need the rain.

Take Care

Bob

[Butchman205]

I can capture some in either a water tank, hanging water balloons in a catch box, or gel block.
Let me know if I can help.

[Avenger442]

Here's another group from the 375H&H son shot on the weekend.
Only 3 shots and 50m but shows promise, 100m groups were around 1.5" ran out of time to test at 200
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2015-06/2d5154c6.jpg

Love to see targets. I shows the accuracy that can be achieved with a product. Tell your son good shot.

[220]

Tell your son good shot.

I would but he knows lol
Only 17 but shoots very well, finished 2nd on the weekend in a big bore event (rifle/load needs to generate 5000ft/lb)
Put this one down at his first ever comp in a 300m event with a factory rifle shooting against big dollar customs a few years ago
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2015-06/6529d769.jpg
Won a junior state tittle in CLAS the 1st time he shot, this weekend he is off on a all expenses paid trip half way across the country shooting ISSF pistol with the state team.

Just to keep him grounded took my 14 year old daughter along to the range last rimfire benchrest comp we shot. Her first ever competition and she beat us both lol.

In his last year of school and wants to join the military, I would love to see him go in and do a trade but he is determined to try and get into special forces. Has his first interview next week and going to try for direct entry to special forces.

Physically I don't think he will have a problem, his running, swimming and endurance results are all well above the minimum requirements but the mental side of it might be more of a challenge but he is determined to try. If he doesn't make it through then he will have the option of doing a trade or regular army and trying again in a few years.

[Ausglock]

Ausglock
I have some questions about your directions you posted on page 19 #366.
11. If you think there isn't enough colour on the bullet, then you have the coating just right. Leave them alone for at least 10 minutes. then warm them with a hair dryer.

Just wondering how long do you warm with the hair dryer and how hot do the boolits get?
When you the tray and place on top of the oven while the first tray is baking how hot do these get?

This may be an area that people over look in the coating process.

I built a drying/warming cabinet with hot air flowing through it to pre warm the boolits for coating(90deg F) and to force the drying. This brings the boolit temp to 120deg F for 1hour, this is most likely longer than needed but I am having zero failure rate.

This way I can do about 2,000 boolits at a time.

I use 6-2-92 alloy, not straight WW.

I use the hair dryer until you can just feel the bullets are warmer than your hand (about 2 minutes).

The tray of bullets on top of the oven are slightly too hot to pickup with bare hands. need gloves.

[ioon44]

Thanks for the reply.

My temps are pretty close to what you are doing, I usually wait until the next day to bake. Main thing is the coating is working great.

[Avenger442]

Got the Gun Metal Blue and Bronze powders today. Thanks Donnie that was quick. I know your only a couple of states over but still quick delivery.

Now I need to cast some more so I can coat. Got 100 lb of wheel weights to process, cast about 500, coat some, about 30 test loads to load, about 20 test loads all ready for the range, testing and report and a messed up arm that will not let me do any of it until next week. It is a viscous circle :bigsmyl2:

[HI-TEK]

Got the Gun Metal Blue and Bronze powders today. Thanks Donnie that was quick. I know your only a couple of states over but still quick delivery.

Now I need to cast some more so I can coat. Got 100 lb of wheel weights to process, cast about 500, coat some, about 30 test loads to load, about 20 test loads all ready for the range, testing and report and a messed up arm that will not let me do any of it until next week. It is a viscous circle :bigsmyl2:


That was fast service by Donnie.
Unfortunately, as coating goes such a long way, casting becomes the challenge to just keep up, as you can coat very many, and fast.

I have had many complaints that it has made slaves out of people having to cast non stop, so they can coat. lol lol :kidding:

Looking forward to your coating and testing on new colours.

[bigfelipe]

Is there a shelf life on this stuff? I have a new can of red copper, but it's almost 2 years old..

[HI-TEK]

Is there a shelf life on this stuff? I have a new can of red copper, but it's almost 2 years old..

As long as it is in well sealed containers, not catalysed, kept out of sun and heat, the only thing that may happen is that the coating may darken, towards a tan colour, viscosity may increase, but should work OK.
Main thing is, mix it very, very well to ensure, that any/all sediments, are all in suspension and dispersed well before decanting and using.
If unsure of usefulness, after mixing well, just mix small batch for coating, and test on a few projectiles first.
This will reveal all.
I would be very interested in how you go.

[robertbank]

I ran 100 rounds through my CZ 85 Combat last evening. Results were inconclusive due to the fact I did a bone head test. I made two changes to my norm. One 50 rd batch I used Green coated bullets, coated 3 times sized .356 water quenched from the third bake AND one 50 rd batch using Gold, coated 3 times sized .356 no water quench. Hell, I guess that is 3 or is it 4 variables. Leading was very light leading me to believe one of the methods worked. (Kicking oneself in the behind with a heavy boot). Leading was in the last 2" of barrel. It was nothing like the leading experienced before. Very light. In any event will follow up today and will use to different CZ's and test results separately. Accuracy in all cases was excellent.

Joe bullets were shot into sand and those recovered had lost all their coating which is not surpising as sand is quite abrasive.

Bob

[Ausglock]

Hmmm... We use sandbags for backtops for low targets. recovered bullets still have coating on them.

[Avenger442]

How many gallon jugs of water do you think it would take to stop a 308, leaving muzzle about 2600 fps, at 100 yards?

I'm going to put something together behind my targets to see if I can recover a couple of bullets out of the rifle to see what they look like.

[Shotgundrums]

How many gallon jugs of water do you think it would take to stop a 308, leaving muzzle about 2600 fps, at 100 yards?

I'm going to put something together behind my targets to see if I can recover a couple of bullets out of the rifle to see what they look like.

Rifle rounds tend to be unrecognizable because of their velocity. That'll be a tough one.

[HI-TEK]

How many gallon jugs of water do you think it would take to stop a 308, leaving muzzle about 2600 fps, at 100 yards?

I'm going to put something together behind my targets to see if I can recover a couple of bullets out of the rifle to see what they look like.

I dont know if this will work or not, but is just an idea..
If you fill balloons, say 10 or so, and more if possible, hang or sit them in straight line, one behind another , so bullet will have to travel through each one, and, it will depend on how well each balloon reduces velocity, as to how many balloons it will take to stop the projectile.
A guess is, that it may take about 3-4 yards travel in water before bullet may stop.
So if balloons are 0.2 to 0.3 yards in diameter, for 0.2 yard diameter and travel of 4 yards in water required for projectile to stop, you will need about 16 balloons.
If Balloons are 0.3 yard diameter and for 4 yard travel, you will need about 12-13 balloons.
The only problem with this is that you get one shot, as balloons will burst after first shot, but it will also tell you how many will burst before bullet will stop.
I dont really know, but it may be possible, that projectile may stop after passing through 5 or 6 balloons.
Would be very interesting to find out.
You may also consider using large plastic Bags, may be 1/2 yard diameter each for the tests, filled with water to a level, that would easily allow a straight line shot through water contained in the bags, and bags placed in straight line, one behind the other to provide your "depth" ( or length of travel of projectile in the water) required to stop alloy.
What do you guys think?

[Butchman205]

With one gallon jugs lined up with one inch between each consecutive jug, the rifle bullet/boolit will normally be caught by the fifth jug...unless it turns. I've done this test many many times. Not sure how many water balloons you would need.

FYI-If you shoot straight down in a water barrel from 15', move quickly after the shot or you'll get a huge splash of water up right between the eyes. Haha! Ask me how I know...

A great way to "water test" projectiles (this has been done to collect the pieces of a fragmenting projectile), is with a 2'x2'x6' wooden box with the front end open. A water balloon hanger can be affixed to the inside top of the box, to hang water balloons in a row.

[PAT303]

Hmmm... We use sandbags for backtops for low targets. recovered bullets still have coating on them.
The ranges I shoot at ranged from hard red dirt at Kalgoorlie,hard iron ore dirt at Newman and sand at Perth,all boolits still had coating on them,even when the boolits were mashed up. Pat

[robertbank]

Ausglock like your 9MM twist comment I don't know what the intent of your post was. I'll post some pictures of the collected bullets from the sand. I didn't post what I said just to make up a story. If their was any evidence of coating on the bullets I would have said there was. The faint colour observed with PC coated bullets I find is hardly evidence the coating remained intact. River sand is very abrasive and I would not expect HI-Tek coating to remain pristine traveling into the stiff at over 1K FPS. what I do expect it to do is remain intact while travelling down a 5" barrel. I believe Donnie's suggestion to size the bullets after the 2nd coating at .356 appears to have improved the results. I have also water quenched the 9MM bullets from the oven on their last bake. I will know latter today if the weather holds if these adjustments. While quite warm yesterday today's forecast includes showers and cooler weather low 70" from high 80's.

Anytime I have used mild jugs to test HP bullet expansion in my .357 mag, five jigs usually was ample to stop them. The challenge is to hope the bullet continues to travel straight. Most of the time they did. The plastic jugs themselves will be hard on the coating, something I assume Joe wants to see. Five jugs would mean the bullet travels through 9 jug polymer walls before they stop on the 10th. I may cost out 6" plastic pipe. If I get a 5' length and cap one end with paper wadding on the bottom of the plug I should be able to get clean bullets. Butchman's comment will be born in mind but I suspect getting wet will be part of the fun.

Take care

Bob

[Butchman205]

Rifle rounds tend to be unrecognizable because of their velocity. That'll be a tough one.

I agree.
The only projectiles I've tested in water jugs, water tank, or ballistic gelatin...which retain most of their original weight, are Barnes copper bullets and Hornady GMX bullets. Most lead bullets fragment MUCH worse than most data I've seen posted by the manufacturers.

Also-The Barnes all copper bullets leave more copper fouling in my barrels than conventionally coated bullets. The Hornady GMX bullets are made of similar "gilding material" that most jacketed bullets' jacket is made of.
The gilding material is supposedly 95% copper and 5% zinc...which is therefore harder and copper fouls less.

I'll be interested to see how much or to what extent, the powder coating affects fragmentation of boolits made from WW.

-Butch

[Butchman205]

Butchman's comment will be born in mind but I suspect getting wet will be part of the fun.

Take care

Bob[/QUOTE]

It was very was fun!
Wasn't quite as fun totally disassembling and cleaning my AR that got soaked. I was wearing safety glasses (as I normally do when shooting), but I definitely underestimated the amount of back splash I would get from the shot...t'was a lot like getting hit with a full blast from a waterhose straight towards my eyes and AR.

Swapping gears, is the 400 degrees Fahrenheit at 10 minutes...the established curing time for the shake and bake powdercoated boolits?

Butch

[mpawlina]

Hello all,

I've been reading all of the posts around here and finally took a plunge and ordered powdered red copper from Donnie. First of all, I want to thank everyone that contributed to this tread and all of it's information. I don't think I would have had a success without it!

I shoot IDPA and just recently started to cast bullets. My gun is Glock 34 with factory barrel. My first coating experience, just like everyone else I suppose, was a bit wonky. But those are the growing pains associated with the Hi-Tek. This was my third coating and I must say I'm off and running great!

As suggested I did get convection oven from Wmrt, pid from ebay, wired it, and now I run set to 390. Love it.
141376

I always have used 20-100 mixing ratio, and eventually went with the Ausglock method of a quick squirt measure. Never got any leading, even during the learning process. The few important factors I had to consider above else were overall case length and powder charges. I have shot successfully with Winchester 231, Longshot, and Primo, although I did download them greatly and increased them by .2 grains at a time until I got the cleanest bore and 100% slide cycling. Currently I have a chrony on backorder but as soon as I get it I will post fps of my loads.

Maybe I got the right gun, maybe I'm lucky, but the process was straight forward and successful since day one (barring the over coating of my first two times). Thank you Hi-Tek for a great product.

On a side note I filed two bullets flat prior to coating and will compare with some uncoated ones I have saved from same casting session to see if the Hi-Tek does add any hardness beside it other qualities. Probably two more weeks away before I will test them.

Below is the sample of latest batch.
141372

[gunoil]

You have a good lead mix, they look perfect. Glad your here. mpawlina

[Avenger442]

mpawlina
Looking good. Your experiences starting out sound similar to mine with my rifles. From the beginning I have yet to have leading.

I did have a failure, my fault, with one tray of 45s for my Colt. Unfortunately before I caught it they had been mixed in with another group of 45s that were OK. Ended up having to remelt the whole bunch. Sometimes I get a bit hurried trying to finish something and do what my Dad used to warn me about. "Don't mess up". One of his favorites and most repeated bits of Fatherly wisdom. He would have loved casting and reloading.

[robertbank]

I'll be interested to see how much or to what extent, the powder coating affects fragmentation of boolits made from WW.

-Butch

Butch if you are talking powder coated bullets as opposed to Hi-Tek in 38 spl 158RN or 200 grRN neither bullet fragmented when shot into sand. Unless they hit a rock in the sand they looked like they did when they came out of the mold except for the scratches and pitting from the sand. I have shot a limited amount of Hi-Tek coated 38spl and .357mag using 158 gr RN and the bullet did not fragment at all. All the mentioned bullets are cast from WW alloy with a minimal amount of 50-50 solder added to aid mold fill out. At handgun velocities I doubt you would ever see much in the way of fragmentation when shot into sand.

My 125 gr 9MM bullets are the truncated cones style and the nose gets puched in or flattened when shot into sand. Does for lubed, PC or Hi Tek. They don;t shatter.

I only tried shake and bake once and didn't care for the process. I spent under $100Cdn to set myself up with a PC gun from Harbour Front. I already had an old air compressor. Guys do the shake and bake with good results. I am looking for more volume than I expect many of the shake and bake guys produce. I baked all my PC bullets for 10 minutes @ 400F in a small convection oven. PC coating is more expensive than the Hi-Tek method and slower but I have to get the latter to work or it won't be much use to me. PC paint is not as fast as Hi-Tek which is why I really want the Hi-Tek to work. Does for my 38spl and it will for my 9MM.

I don't shoot a lot of rifle and I only really shoot a Marlin 30-30 and my Longbranch outside of my two pistol cartridge carbines. In both rifles I have had excellent (for me) results so any movement away from regular lubing would be more out of curiosity than a desire to switch. When a scoped LB does 1 1/4" at 100 yards you tend to stick with the program. :D

Take Care

Bob

[mpawlina]

I've tried to PC as well. Here are my observations:

1. It definitely takes longer to PC. It's a very slow process (comparing directly to HT) if you use powder gun. It still twice as long if you use tumble method (20 min bake time vs 10 for HT).

2. First time i tried PC was with HF red powder. I decided to dry tumble. To get it to coat completely I had to tumble twice, bake twice and even then I had some small areas that were not completely coated. They also came out lumpy. Below is a picture of them and you can see some missing coat (sorry, only one I had).
141373

3. I got some free powder from local shop that had a sample from Sherwin-Williams. I then decided to use Hi-Tek application method to see if it would work with PC. After some experimentation it seems that it works. Still, i had to coat twice. This method did yield a completely covered projectile although still very lumpy. Picture below.
141374

4. Even if I get the powder for free, adjust method to be similar to HT, it still produces a projectile that is nowhere near as consistent looking as HT coated one. After long experimentation with different solvents, ratios, and times, i got to say that HT is still the champ.
141375

The last experiment left is comparison of hardness of the coatings. I have filed six bullets flat from the same cast batch. Two are uncoated, two are coated in HT, and two are PC'd. In two weeks I'll use my Lee hardness tester to check the hardness of them all and compere. I'll of course share the results with all here.

[mpawlina]

And here's my latest build. Bits and pieces from around the garage plus $30 Lee press. All the design props go to Gremlin as his machine inspired me to build my copy. Thank you Gremlin [smilie=s: !!! Sure makes using a LEE sizing die a breeze.


http://vid280.photobucket.com/albums/kk176/Marcin_Pawlina/IMG_2095_zpsw4uuopfv.mp4

Sorry for a shoddy quality but it was one handed iphone balancing act, lol.

[Ausglock]

Ausglock like your 9MM twist comment I don't know what the intent of your post was.

Take care

Bob

The intent of my post is that the coating will stay on, even when shot into sand.

[Gremlin460]

I am getting leading on my first batch of Candy Apple Red, and I know why. the day I let them dry was a damp, moist day up here while we were in the throws of rainy days.
So I believe moister absorbance is the issue with these.
Now we are into our winter, humidity is dropping, so I will remelt the 500 left out of the 1k batch and run them again.

All the other colours work fine, but they were done on different days. Red for me, needs a bit more concentration to get right.

[robertbank]

I PC still but bake for only 10 minutes not 20 at 400F. If you bake the bullets a 400F you are in effect annealing them. I will interested to see the results of your tests.

Take Care

Bob

[mpawlina]

I forgot to mention that I water quench after the last coat of HT. Effects of such have been debated as good and none but I'll take any extra hardness I can get.

[robertbank]

The intent of my post is that the coating will stay on, even when shot into sand.

Interesting.

Bob

[robertbank]

I forgot to mention that I water quench after the last coat of HT. Effects of such have been debated as good and none but I'll take any extra hardness I can get.

I have gone to water quenching as well. Putting them in the oven for 10 minutes at 400F will anneal the bullets if they air dry. I hope the water quench will stop the process. Time will tell.

Bob

[robertbank]

Joe here is a photo of some 9MM 125 gr bullets I retreived the other day from the back of our berm. They are shot into river sand that has been sandbagged and placed at the back of our IDPA pits. In the upper right there is a 9MM bullet, coated and ready to be loaded and to the right of it is a 158 gr 38spl bullet coated with regular powder coating. You can see, if you look close traces of red coating on the bullet. for the most part it has been stripped off of the bullet. There is no Hi-Tek coating left on any of the 9MM bullets I retrieved. I would not expect any either. The sand is pretty abrasive.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/2015-07-06%2002.31.59.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/2015-07-06%2002.31.59.jpg.html)

Take Care

Bob

[leadman]

I have been water quenching after the last coat also and it does improve the hardness.
If I want really hard boolits (30-35 bhn) then I heat treat them prior to coating and water quench after each minimal bake cycle. I only do 2 coats rather than 3 for hard boolits. I am able to keep most of the bhn gained from the heat treat process using this method.

[Avenger442]

I have been water quenching after the last coat also and it does improve the hardness.
If I want really hard boolits (30-35 bhn) then I heat treat them prior to coating and water quench after each minimal bake cycle. I only do 2 coats rather than 3 for hard boolits. I am able to keep most of the bhn gained from the heat treat process using this method.

I know I asked before but forgot, what is your alloy?
My test with water drop after bake has only give me minimal gains. About to add some magnum shot to alloy.

[Ausglock]

Robabank. There is something wrong there.

I can walk down our range to where we had sandbags behind low targets for IPSC and pickup fired bullets that could virtually be loaded and fired again. the coating is intact and the only damage is a bit of flattening at the nose and the rifling marks.
If I can get some tomorrow, I'll post a few photos.

[robertbank]

Well Trevor the gun is leading so no doubt there is something wrong. I am zeroing in on hardness of the bullets. By water quenching on the last bake I hope to reverse the obvious annealing that has to be taking place. We shall see. Soon. Perhaps as early as tomorrow.

Bob

[Ausglock]

do yourself a favour and buy a few KG's of 2.6.92 alloy and cast a few "control" bullets.

[robertbank]

do yourself a favour and buy a few KG's of 2.6.92 alloy and cast a few "control" bullets.

No I have no interest in spending more money on alloy for this product. No offense but it either works with WW alloy water quenched or I will go back to PC or regular lube. I live 15 hours by road from Vancouver where the nearest foundry resides. If I have to start bringing up alloy I might as well buy plated or FMJ bullets. It really is simple economics. It is shipping costs that makes shooting home cast bullets attractive for the action shooting sports. Nothing more nothing less.

If I can drive water quenched WW alloy in my pistol carbines to 1500 fps without leading using regular lube surely to God HI-Tek coating can work out to 1100 fps in pistols. Trevor the stuff will work using WW alloy.

Take care

Bob

[mpawlina]

My alloy is roughly 90% coww and 10% soww, fishing weights, and pure lead. Right after smelting into ingots, using Lee hardness tester, it tests 9 to 13 bhn depending on the exact mix. Each ingot is weighted and stamped with weight and batch hardness. Then, when I add ingot to my pot, I can calculate the expected hardness and see exactly how much super hard I may need to add to get to required bhn for my 9mm. But I never had to buy super hard. All my test batches shoot fine without leading. Given, I'm not pushing them super fast but they just work. 9 bhn is not exactly what is required for 9mm application but it works. I ice water quench when casting and same after the last coat. I not sure how precisely calibrated my tester is but that's the numbers I get. In two weeks time I'll post "aged bullet" hardness.

[Ausglock]

Robabank...
OK. Recovered bullet time.
These are all made by Susan Island Bullets.
They are 2,6,92 alloy
Left to right.
135gn RN coated with 2 coats of liquid Kryptonite green. fired into sandbags with river sand out of 38 Super at 1100fps. Note: coating missing where the bullet engaged the rifling, however the barrel was still lead free after 1 pass of a boresnake.
124gn RN coated with 2 coats of powder Candyapple red. Fired into sandbags with river sand out of 9mm at 1050fps.
135gn Spire point coated with liquid original green. Fired into sandbags with river sand out of 38 Special at 870fps. Note: ring around nose from dillon seating insert. Note crimp indentation
135gn RN coated with Powder Candy apple red. Fired into sandbags with river sand out of 357Sig at 1360fps. Note: Crimp indentation has cut the coating with no adverse affect.
All these were fired today out of different guns by different people. we had an IPSC practice day and shot 3 stages.

I told them that you northerners were whinging about coating coming off. Everyone helped me to collect fired bullets just to prove that when done right, coating does not come off.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/fb056fec-9c66-4752-af62-db07ec61ce26.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/fb056fec-9c66-4752-af62-db07ec61ce26.jpg.html)

[Michael J. Spangler]

Awesome pictures Trevor.
A lot of my recovered bullets were right in line with the first bullet in your picture. They strip a little from the rifling. I'm not sure if thats due to a soft alloy for the application or not but either way the bores remain lead free.
I just picked up some red copper liquid from a local gun shop yesterday. Can't wait to try it out!

[Michael J. Spangler]

Is anyone using Hi-Tek with the S&W 500? I am going to coat some bullets for someone to test in his revolver. I was wondering if anyone has had luck and what alloy you're using etc? The mold is a lee 440 grain.I have 2 of the same mold. I am going to ream the GC shank out of one and Mill the gas check shank off of the other to give him 2 plain base options to work with.
Thanks guys!

[robertbank]

Terrific pictures Trevor. Shoot those same bullets into the river sand up here and the bullets will look like the ones I posted. I picked a few out yesterday that had some of the coating left on them. Glad you have a repeatable method of applying the product that works. I have not found it yet with my 9MM and frankly I have enough bullets set aside that now require bullet lube to be shot to last out the year so I am not going to spend anymore time chasing the magic formula. Don't take it personal but when the effort exceeds the need ....why bother?

One range I shoot at in the US has berms made of a lighter fine sand. I will be down there in August. I will dig some of the bullets out of it. I am sure the coating will be intact. Like your acetone/crush test it proves nothing. Following the instructions listed with the powders I received resulted in leading in three of my pistols. With suggested amendments to the instructions from you and others associated with the product leading was eliminated in the 38spl but not in the 9MM. Maybe I got a bad batch of powder. I don't know. I do know I will get back to the testing sometime. Just not soon.

Take Care

Bob
Commercially produced bullets with this product I am sure are excellent bullets and if it was not cost prohibitive I would have an order into Bayou Bullets in a heart beat. Unfortunately the shipping would be a killer.

[HI-TEK]

Awesome pictures Trevor.
A lot of my recovered bullets were right in line with the first bullet in your picture. They strip a little from the rifling. I'm not sure if thats due to a soft alloy for the application or not but either way the bores remain lead free.
I just picked up some red copper liquid from a local gun shop yesterday. Can't wait to try it out!


Michael,
Just a quick message.
With the liquid Red Copper, and with other liquid types, please make sure that you really, and I mean really well, shake up contents first, before decanting to coat.
The Red Copper and other ingredients do pack down firmly with storage, and requires extra effort to re-mix, re-suspend evenly.
With your stripping in rifling, that is normal, and may be more evident with softer alloys.
Main cause seems to be sharp edges simply cutting into alloy, during hydraulic deformation of alloy.
Keep up the good work
Hi-Tek

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hi Joe!
I'm familiar with the gold and I can already see the copper (translucent containers from gateway) settles down a ton too.
I had a bunch of 401638 that wasn't doing me any good because I always had leading in my shield. They made great agitators for mixing up the color and catalyst. I knew 40cal was good for something.
I originally wanted the red cooper so I could color code my alloy depending on usage. Now I've realized that for everything I load for so far my 50/50 pure and COWW air cooled does the trick thanks to hi-tek. I guess the red copper will just be for show now.

[HI-TEK]

Hi Joe!
I'm familiar with the gold and I can already see the copper (translucent containers from gateway) settles down a ton too.
I had a bunch of 401638 that wasn't doing me any good because I always had leading in my shield. They made great agitators for mixing up the color and catalyst. I knew 40cal was good for something.
I originally wanted the red cooper so I could color code my alloy depending on usage. Now I've realized that for everything I load for so far my 50/50 pure and COWW air cooled does the trick thanks to hi-tek. I guess the red copper will just be for show now.

The Red Copper is a good product.
All Metallics are comparable in performance, and choice of colour becomes the users preference.
They are all very pretty as well as functional.
I am glad, that things are working out for you.
Please post some pictures as possible, I would love to see what you have made.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Will do.
I couldn't pass up the deal for the coating. A Local shop owner had me mill down a GC shank off a .501 440 grain Lee mold and also ream the shank off of another and gave me the coating in trade. Very nice deal for both of us.
He's wondering if the hi-tek will hold up in the 500 at about 1500 fps.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/BE9836D0-2A89-4EA6-88AD-2DAF8357C937_zpssrpkqkii.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/BE9836D0-2A89-4EA6-88AD-2DAF8357C937_zpssrpkqkii.jpg.html)

[leadman]

With the proper alloy the coating will hold up just fine at 1,500 fps. I have shot boolits over 3,600 fps and the coating held up.

[HI-TEK]

Will do.
I couldn't pass up the deal for the coating. A Local shop owner had me mill down a GC shank off a .501 440 grain Lee mold and also ream the shank off of another and gave me the coating in trade. Very nice deal for both of us.
He's wondering if the hi-tek will hold up in the 500 at about 1500 fps.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/BE9836D0-2A89-4EA6-88AD-2DAF8357C937_zpssrpkqkii.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/BE9836D0-2A89-4EA6-88AD-2DAF8357C937_zpssrpkqkii.jpg.html)

They are a whopper. What do you shoot with these, Aliens???? lol...lol
I do not have any experience with such sized bullets.
In theory, if coating is stuck well, I cant see any reason why it should not work.
What alloy would these be made of? What diameter?
If coating has stayed on at 3000ft/sec. plus, aside from may be severe deformation of alloy, I cannot see the coating having problems at 1500ft/sec.
Do a few, and bake and do your normal solvent & smash test on alloy being considered.
May be folk who had used these types may be able to also assist with this.

[HI-TEK]

With the proper alloy the coating will hold up just fine at 1,500 fps. I have shot boolits over 3,600 fps and the coating held up.

How are you doing Leadman.
Hope things are going well.
What alloy be suitable for such sized bullets at those speeds?
I am mainly interested in possible problems arising with excessive deformation of alloy, if it is too soft.

[ioon44]

Looking for some advice on using the Bronze powder I just received.

The boolit I will be coating is a .45cal 405gn to be shot out of .458 win mag and .458 SOCOM.

Should I mix the powder at 100/20 or 120/20 and should I do 2 coats or 3 coats, with each coat baked 12 min?

The alloy will be 6-2-92. Will 2kg of the 405gn boolits take longer than 12 min to cure?

Thanks for any advice.

[Ausglock]

Looking for some advice on using the Bronze powder I just received.

The boolit I will be coating is a .45cal 405gn to be shot out of .458 win mag and .458 SOCOM.

Should I mix the powder at 100/20 or 120/20 and should I do 2 coats or 3 coats, with each coat baked 12 min?

The alloy will be 6-2-92. Will 2kg of the 405gn boolits take longer than 12 min to cure?

Thanks for any advice.

I's stay with 100:20.
for 45 pills that size, I'd drop back to 1.5kg for 12 minutes.
remember you have to heat the alloy to minimum of 180Deg C at their core.
Try 2 coats and see how they go. if they need 3, then so be it.

[robertbank]

Gas checks took care of the leading in the 9MM coated with the Gold so I am encouraged to the point where I will try the green in the 9MM. The 9MM bullets coated with Gold that now lead the barrel at least will get by with no need for lube which is a bonus. Mix for the Green will be 100- 20 with 5ML applied to 2,000 grams of bullets. Alloy is water quenched WW with some tin added. I intend to water drop after each bake and size to .356 after 2nd coat. Bake time will be 8- 10 minutes at 400F. I will limit batch to 2K of bullets until I get shooting results.

On another note 38spl loads using Gold worked great. Barrel clean as new. Given bullets are of the same alloy and processed at the same time I am wondering if the Gold requires a harder alloy. Alloy hardness should really not be an issue given we anneal the alloy when we bake it and air dry. Life goes on.

Bob
ps Joe I should have water vessel for shooting bullets into sometime next week. Just waiting on a friend to deliver it.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=robertbank;3275621]ter 2nd coat. Bake time will be 8- 10 minutes at 400F. I will limit batch to 2K of bullets until I get shooting results.

Hi Bob,

Please bake at 200C for at least 10 minutes from placing products into oven and don't over load.
It is assumed, that you have adequate air circulation inside your oven.
If not, no problems at all.
Simply at about 5 minute point, take out tray, shake tray quickly to move things around, and return into oven to finish bake.
This should assist with more even bake across tray.

With using gas checks to get good results, it seems that your alloy may have been a little soft.
Not sure, but your success with gas checks certainly is pushing thoughts that way.

[Ausglock]

Bake time will be 8- 10 minutes at 400F.

Why 8 minutes???

With all the testing I have done over the last few years, 10 to 12 minutes is required.
But... Obviously you know more about it than I. So go your hardest.
Just don't come whinging and moaning about coating failure and leading.

Where is the "shake head in dis-belief" smilie ?????

[Gremlin460]

I have to put my flag up with Ausglock, I WAS repeat was experimenting with how short a time I could cure the coating and get away with it.
Experince and results prove that < 10.30 mins leads to leading in my guns 99% of the time. Worse with the reds than copper and gold.
My minimum cure time now is set at 12.00 mins. even then I don't run to the oven when the beeper goes off.

Ovens may vary heat transfer performance depending on the set up, the fact still stands 12 mins to cure is 12 mins to cure.
The beretta,1911 and Tupperware Glock do not lead > 12 mins, they all do < 10 mins.
Just my $0.02aud worth.

[robertbank]

[QUOTE=robertbank;3275621]ter 2nd coat. Bake time will be 8- 10 minutes at 400F. I will limit batch to 2K of bullets until I get shooting results.

Hi Bob,

Please bake at 200C for at least 10 minutes from placing products into oven and don't over load.
It is assumed, that you have adequate air circulation inside your oven.
If not, no problems at all.
Simply at about 5 minute point, take out tray, shake tray quickly to move things around, and return into oven to finish bake.
This should assist with more even bake across tray.

With using gas checks to get good results, it seems that your alloy may have been a little soft.
Not sure, but your success with gas checks certainly is pushing thoughts that way.

I agree on the gas checks indicating soft alloy. When we bake the bullets and air cool them we are really aneeling them and I suspect starting with an even harder alloy is not the answer. Water quenching them reduced the leading but did not eliminate it entirely. The bullets in question got 10 minutes of baking + @ 400F which runs a bit higher than 200C. I have 100 bullets ready now to load using the "green" version. I will test them out tomorrow and report back. Regardless of the results I will move along as described above. I remain confident. Right now I am shooting my revolver and have those bulelts working fine.

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;3275635]

I agree on the gas checks indicating soft alloy. When we bake the bullets and air cool them we are really aneeling them and I suspect starting with an even harder alloy is not the answer. Water quenching them reduced the leading but did not eliminate it entirely. The bullets in question got 10 minutes of baking + @ 400F which runs a bit higher than 200C. I have 100 bullets ready now to load using the "green" version. I will test them out tomorrow and report back. Regardless of the results I will move along as described above. I remain confident. Right now I am shooting my revolver and have those bulelts working fine.

Take Care

Bob

Thanks Bob,
Just a few things; (apology for my long blog)

1. Have you done any tests with hardness before and after baking at 200C?
Why I ask, is, I want to be sure of your suggestion of annealing taking place in the 10 odd minutes, and, if any annealing occurs, just how much annealing is occurring.

2. I just wish to again repeat, that the coating is a way to separate alloy from barrel.
The coating cannot correct any deficiency with engineering requirements lacking with alloy, hardness, sizing, barrel wear, powder loads/types, etc etc. Using same alloy, the variations you seem to be obtaining are not clear why this is happening at this stage.

3. I dont know, if you had seen previous blogs, where coating (Dark Green as used by Bayou) was deliberately over baked for 15 days, 8 hour days, 5 day week,at 200C, and all that was observed is that colour instead of being dark green was almost black.
Coating performed faultlessly when shot, and smash test also passed.
(Having had this test confirm things, your baking at 400F will not or should not affect coating, and should not cause loss of adhesion.)

User, who loaded and tested the over cooked coating, stated categorically that it was the best grouping results that hes has ever produced, and his gun was spotlessly clean.

Referring to you baking at 400F, for 10 minutes, should hardly be a cause for concern.

4. If you can, I really would like to know, at what temperature is the alloy reach, after the 10 minute cook at 400F?

The reason for this is, that if you have an oven, and no fan forced air circulation, the "actual" temperature in oven air, may not be a good indicator of heat being contained in alloy being cooked.

I want to refer back to a test we did, many years ago, with a fan forced conveyor belt type flow through oven, with single layer of coated projectiles were contained in a tray.

A tray of coated projectiles went through in about 10 minutes, with oven thermometer reading internal air temperature directly above the center of the tray, which showed 200C.

Upon tray emerging from oven, at the edges, (front, rear and sides), the alloy was actually molten, and in the center, the alloys in the same tray appeared not to be cooked adequately.

It taught us that we did not have enough/adequate air circulation, and we could not rely on heat settings, and thermometer reading, when we had not adequate air circulation inside oven that we thought was OK in the beginning.
Despite some fan circulation, there were obviously hot spots, and cold spots, from temperature that was required, as molten alloy had unreservedly showed us that problem.

Alloy taken from center of the tray was just barely cooked adequately, by passing tests and not changing colour much and in same tray we also had molten alloy.

So with these facts, we very quickly had to change our thinking with that oven set up.

I hope that this helps your thoughts with my quoting our experiences.

[robertbank]

Thanks Joe your post helps a lot.

My Green has turned quite Black which is no concern. I am glad to hear it may even help. My oven is a table top convection oven. Setting at 425F I achieve a temperature, based upon a stand alone oven thermometer of 410F. If I set it at 400F I get 375F aprrox. 2.5" off the oven floor. That is as close as I can get. I would rather have a couple degrees warmer frankly than under.

Water quenching only affects the surface layer of the lead which has lead to more than one thread involving the affects of sizing on water quenched bullets. This discussion is moot in this application as the Hi-Tek coating lies between the lead surface and the sizing die.

I have no way of measuring the temperature of the bullets after baking. Certainly, it is fair to assume the surface temperature of the bullet is at least the same as the oven temperature. If this assumption is true then some annealing is taking place. How much? Who knows? Water quenching the 9MM bullets after the third bake cannot hurt and should have some effect on the hardness of the bullet. Whether or not it has any effect on performance is just a matter of conjecture. I water quench my 9MM lead bullets from the mold so the start out with a hardness of around 21BR anyway. I water quench them because it is easier to drop the bullets into a pail of water than it is to fiddle with them any other way ( I cast 9MM with two four cavity molds at a time). I have shot lots of 9MM bullets cast from WW alloy without water quenching and they shot just find too. In hobby casting there is more witch craft than science applied from my experience. ;-)

I am loading my first Green (Actually now black) bullets today. I suspect all will be good. As Ausglock has mentioned on more than one occasion we ought not to over think this.

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Joe your post helps a lot.

My Green has turned quite Black which is no concern. I am glad to hear it may even help. My oven is a table top convection oven. Setting at 425F I achieve a temperature, based upon a stand alone oven thermometer of 410F. If I set it at 400F I get 375F aprrox. 2.5" off the oven floor. That is as close as I can get. I would rather have a couple degrees warmer frankly than under.

Water quenching only affects the surface layer of the lead which has lead to more than one thread involving the affects of sizing on water quenched bullets. This discussion is moot in this application as the Hi-Tek coating lies between the lead surface and the sizing die.

I have no way of measuring the temperature of the bullets after baking. Certainly, it is fair to assume the surface temperature of the bullet is at least the same as the oven temperature. If this assumption is true then some annealing is taking place. How much? Who knows? Water quenching the 9MM bullets after the third bake cannot hurt and should have some effect on the hardness of the bullet. Whether or not it has any effect on performance is just a matter of conjecture. I water quench my 9MM lead bullets from the mold so the start out with a hardness of around 21BR anyway. I water quench them because it is easier to drop the bullets into a pail of water than it is to fiddle with them any other way ( I cast 9MM with two four cavity molds at a time). I have shot lots of 9MM bullets cast from WW alloy without water quenching and they shot just find too. In hobby casting there is more witch craft than science applied from my experience. ;-)

I am loading my first Green (Actually now black) bullets today. I suspect all will be good. As Ausglock has mentioned on more than one occasion we ought not to over think this.

Take Care

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your reply.
The fact that your dark green coatings has turned Black in 10-12 minutes, it is suggesting to me that your oven temperature may be far higher than you think.
I am thinking along that line, as it took nearly an hour to go black with the aged bake tests.
It is possible that cooked alloy you are baking for 10-12 minutes, may reach 220-250 C for coating to go black.
Unless you can measure accurate alloy temperature, one is only guessing.
See if you can borrow from a friend a laser beam thermometer. This shoots a beam onto the alloy and gives you instant temperature on where you aim beam.

Advice I received from local commercial alloy maker, was that heat tended to "bleed" Tin to the surface of alloy at elevated temperatures.
Tin is much harder than Lead. I am not sure, but this is suggesting, that quenching, (snap cooling) causes formation of very fine crystals of metal on the surface of alloy, and that is why hardness seems higher with tests.

Really, the coating is not rocket science, rules are, first coat thin, dry well, then bake.
Test before applying second coat. Also, sizing a few will tell you, if first coat is OK.
If it sizes OK also, apply second coat. This time you can apply a little more coating. Dry well and bake.
That is it.
You will be fine with this. there is no magic involved.

[popper]

I use the gold with ACWW in BO @ 1800, coating must stay on cause no leading. Even tried it in the 308 ~ 2500, ACWW, no leading. H.T. only works if you cook for an hour @ 400F then quench. 10 min. @ 400F pretty much softens.You don't have to use As but it helps immensely.

[Avenger442]

OKed by Doctor to start using my right hand again as of yesterday. So I loaded about 30 rounds two different bullet cook times,12 min 400F and 60 min 400F, and three different loads coated Hi-Tek three coats of liquid Gold 1035 for the 308. This time with no gas check per promise to Bellinut. Already have about 60 more loaded to test in 223 and 308. Report coming for a range trip as soon as I can get caught up after two weeks with not being able to use right hand. My place looks like no one has touched anything for a month.

Also cast about five pounds Lee CTL 312 160 2R bullets. Per suggestion from leadman or popper, forgot who, added 2 tbs of mag shot to about 10 lbs of alloy and water dropped out of mold. Will test BHN at 14 days coat, water drop and test BHN after 14 days to see if I gain anything. Mag shot sure helped the look of the bullet finish. They are to be sized 309 and coated with the 007 powder. Love this bullet design but it is probably not what I would use to hunt with. Will make a good target bullet. The gun metal blue coating should make it beautiful, for a bullet. Will try to remember photos.

[robertbank]

I use the gold with ACWW in BO @ 1800, coating must stay on cause no leading. Even tried it in the 308 ~ 2500, ACWW, no leading. H.T. only works if you cook for an hour @ 400F then quench. 10 min. @ 400F pretty much softens.You don't have to use As but it helps immensely.

That is what I fear is happening. If the stuff won't work with WW alloy I will have to move on. Lube and PC does and changing the alloy is not in the cards. The cost to bring a harder alloy up here is prohibitive and frankly it would be cheaper just to buy FMJ bullets than it would to ship the raw harder lead alloy here. The HI-Tek product works and I have had some success at 16Kpsi in 38spl. None at 9MM pressures unfortunately, so far. Worse case I will have two large coffee cans full of coloured lubed bullets.

As an aside my ware quenched bullets run around 21Br which is a gain over air dried WW alloy bullets. In the end I may heat some bullets for the hour and water quench them to see if they will work. I would not consider this on a regular basis due to Hydro costs and time involved.

Take Care

Bob

[popper]

Water quenching only affects the surface layer of the lead NOT TRUE!
Last batch of 9mm (1`30gr.) was softer than WW, air cooled, 2x coated with liquid green. Shot fine with mid load of WST. Shot~ 100 40SW today, liquid green, ~ half were 5 gr. WST (~1K fps) under a 165gr TC PB. Put 19 of 20 into one inch, resting the butt on a rubber pad.
3x Gold 1035 is doing OK @ 2400 fps, AC COWW in 308W - not sure of the accuracy - more testing to do. Does fine @ 1800 in the 300BO.
Robertbank - you using COWW? Forget it if using stickons, they're near pure and won't do the job. You might try adding Cu for a hardener. Visit the copper thread.

[robertbank]

No regular WW's. I know the stick ons are or are clise to pure lead. I usually add 50-50 solder to aid in mold fill out. I heat treated a batch of 358 rn and an assortment of other bullets including 3x coated HT bullets destined for the CZ 75 Shadowline. It is the Gold - now dark bronze after an hour at 400F. I will know sometime this week if it helps or not. The Green left leading in the barrel after three coats, passing the solvent/smash test. The 38 spl Gold continue to work fine. Shooting aluminum GC'd bullets after the Green got most of the lead out of the grooves. A copper mesh wrapped copper brush took care of the rest. Rain starts tonite and runs until next Monday per the local forecast so it likely won';t be until Tuesday a fresh batch of coated bullets get my attention. I am going to test a much smaller batch. I have enough coated bullets waiting for lube now. I don't need anymore.

Take Care

Bob

[leadman]

Hi-Tek,
I'm still alive and kicking but not doing much shooting still. Recoil still is a problem even with the use of the Leadsled and my hands have such bad arthritis it is hard to cast and reload. now that our temperatures here are around 100 degrees I am hoping this helps my hands. As they say: getting old ain't for sissies!
For my high velocity experiments in my 223 Rem Contender 23" bull barrel I heat treated linotype, installed the gas checks in an RCBS luber/sizer so lead was untouched. I coated with Gold 1035 twice with a short bake time IIRC about 8 minutes. Water quenched after each coat. The boolits were 32 to 35 bhn. This alloy allowed me to get 3,619 fps average with accuracy around 2 1/2" at 100 yards. Slower loads were more accurate. I tested boolits with and without quenching and more of the heat treated hardness was retained with the quenching after each coat.
During my testing I noticed I would get a light gray puff of smoke when working up loads. This came at the same time as the accuracy deteriorating. A harder alloy was used and moved the point up in which the light gray puff of smoke was noticed again.

I did discover, as Ausglock did, quite some time ago that the gun companies are cheating when cutting the chambers in some of the pistol barrels. these lack a leade in front of the chamber to guide the boolit into the rifling. the blunt edge of the rifling is cutting the coating on the boolit and this leads to leading.
I took a coated boolit and loaded it long in an empty case and inserted it in the chamber and turned it by hand. Removed it and saw a nice ring cut in the coating. Having a proper chamber cut seems to cure the problem as Ausglock posted many pages back.

[Avenger442]

I was more curious about accuracy, how well a GC boolit would shoot without a GC. I have a couple M1 Garand's I love to shoot, I have a couple years worth of ammo left from the stock pile I bought long ago from the CMP but when that's gone I'll be reloading for them. I wish I had bought a lot more ammo, it was about $67 shipped for a spam can of either 240 loose or 194 on en bloc clips in bando's, I bought both. Good Greek HXP ammo too, and the brass is good stuff, been saving it all and was given more from a buddy who shot it and doesn't reload.

I'll be interest to read more of your posts about this bullet.

You might remember that I said I would test the ones I got the 1 1/2" groups with in the 308, without gas checks. My Granddaughter was kind enough to let me use her gun to test with so I could compare apples to apples with this load and no gas check this time. It's a good thing, too. My 308s scope loosened up again after about ten loads. I was able to finish testing the other loads with her gun. Man! The ones without gas checks shoot terrible at the same pressure. All over the range as far as grouping. Some tumbling. I might have been able to get them on a 4'X4' target. I just got back from he range and haven't looked at the barrel but expect to see the rifling full of lead. Probably could load them down to a much lower pressure and get something.

Other testing went OK but aggravated about the scope. Wanted to start getting groups with my gun as good as with the Remington. Will try to post photos of other test later and give report on leading if any. Will not post a photo of the 20' section of berm where the ones without gas checks hit LOL.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=leadman;3277910]Hi-Tek,
linotype, installed the gas checks in an RCBS luber/sizer so lead was untouched. I coated with Gold 1035 twice with a short bake time IIRC about 8 minutes. Water quenched after each coat.


Hi Leadman,
I know just how it feels. My old bones are suffering similarly, especially with cold & wet.
Now, with your warmer weather, things should get better.
Please look after yourself.

With you Gold baking, just curious, why did you cook only for 8 minutes?
It is possible, that you just barely cooked coating adequately at 8 minutes, but will depend on your oven set temperature.
The coatings, (based on more recent advice from commercial casters) seems not to suffer with cooking a little longer (aside from slight darkening of colour), and, cooking it at say 12 minutes, may have produced a little tougher/harder finish.
I suppose that you were considering loss of hardness of alloy due to long heat exposures.
At least, you have now confirmed several times, that the coatings can survive with 3600ft/sec use, if alloy selection and sizing plus loads are balanced.
Thanks for all your great reporting of your testing results.

[leadman]

I have PID units on 2 of my ovens and the other is digital and all have 4 heating rods so my ovens are up to temp when I put the boolits in. I did testing prior to the velocity tests and found that 8 minutes was long enough to set the coating. The boolits only weigh 52gr without the GC and coating so heat up quickly. The shorter cook time also seems to not anneal the heat treated boolits very much and what is lost is mostly gained back with the water quench after each coat. I also have the boolits on aluminum screen like house windows have so the tray is already hot in the oven. Just set the screen on the tray and close the door, lost very little heat.

I do think the boolits would withstand a little more velocity but would need a 22-250 or 220 Swift to test them. As it was I had to very carefully seat the boolits as the powder was about 1/32" below the top of the case neck.
I wish I could tolerate recoil and do some more testing with the 30 caliber boolits at high velocity further. I did push the 314299 in my Savage 110 30-06 just over 2,600 fps and do think it is possible to go faster. I might talk my buddy into firing some of these for me.

[PAT303]

The boolits I dropped quenched about two weeks ago tested toady at 20Bhn,I baked them for 20mins at 200 degree's on the second coat and dropped them straight into water,the alloy is straight COWW.The extra time in the oven and dropping straight into water doesn't affect the coating at all,I shoot them at 2200fps without issue in two and five groove .303's and in a 9'' twist 6.5x55,the swede hammers the X ring at 100 at 1800fps. Pat

[robertbank]

The boolits I dropped quenched about two weeks ago tested toady at 20Bhn,I baked them for 20mins at 200 degree's on the second coat and dropped them straight into water,the alloy is straight COWW.The extra time in the oven and dropping straight into water doesn't affect the coating at all,I shoot them at 2200fps without issue in two and five groove .303's and in a 9'' twist 6.5x55,the swede hammers the X ring at 100 at 1800fps. Pat

Pat thanks for taking the time to do this test. I just finished baking some WW alloyed 9MM bullets one hour at 400F and then dropping directly into water. I will now later today if I get the results i want ie no leading.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Sorry to report but it isn't bullet hardness that is the issue. After 100 rds the inside of my M&P PRO's barrel looked like a gravel pit; well actually a lead pit. The bullets have been hardened by baking for an hour at 400F then dropped in ice water.

I am going to load 50 rds using the same bullets with GC's attached to see if the GC will prevent gas cutting and also have a scrapping affect on the grooves of the barrel keeping them clean.

Before the day is out I will have a new mix, as suggest by a friend who has had success with the product. If it fails I am back to lubing and/or PCing. I don't doubt for a minute this product works and has provided the tool some have looked for. I just have not been able to make the stuff work yet. I do have, however a year's supply of bullets that now likely require lubing so another failure will see me on the sidelines.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

Will do.
I couldn't pass up the deal for the coating. A Local shop owner had me mill down a GC shank off a .501 440 grain Lee mold and also ream the shank off of another and gave me the coating in trade. Very nice deal for both of us.
He's wondering if the hi-tek will hold up in the 500 at about 1500 fps.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/Casting/BE9836D0-2A89-4EA6-88AD-2DAF8357C937_zpssrpkqkii.jpg (http://s286.photobucket.com/user/MJSpangler/media/Casting/BE9836D0-2A89-4EA6-88AD-2DAF8357C937_zpssrpkqkii.jpg.html)




What color is that?

[Michael J. Spangler]

those are un coated. just be cast boolits.
i was just showing the mold mods

[robertbank]

Better NEWS this afternoon. The PB GC's from Pat Marlin did the trick. 50 9MM rds down range and no leading. Fired a hundred 38spl Hi-Tek Gold coated bullets with no leading. The NEWS gets better as I make GC's out of Coke and Molson cans. Canadian Rye & Coke or Molson's Canadian Bob? Oh heck I'll have one of each. This casting may make me an alcoholic.:D

I will do a new mix in the morning. I have some things to do this evening.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

I was not sure. Those are nice lookin boolits michael.

[Michael J. Spangler]

thank you sir

I was amazed at how well the molds cast. that was about the third pour or so.

[zomby woof]

Sorry to report but it isn't bullet hardness that is the issue. After 100 rds the inside of my M&P PRO's barrel looked like a gravel pit; well actually a lead pit. The bullets have been hardened by baking for an hour at 400F then dropped in ice water.

I am going to load 50 rds using the same bullets with GC's attached to see if the GC will prevent gas cutting and also have a scrapping affect on the grooves of the barrel keeping them clean.

Before the day is out I will have a new mix, as suggest by a friend who has had success with the product. If it fails I am back to lubing and/or PCing. I don't doubt for a minute this product works and has provided the tool some have looked for. I just have not been able to make the stuff work yet. I do have, however a year's supply of bullets that now likely require lubing so another failure will see me on the sidelines.

Take Care

Bob

I just purchased an M&P Pro. I'm searching for a load right now. It seems it likes a .356 boolit, even though it measured a bit larger.

[robertbank]

I just purchased an M&P Pro. I'm searching for a load right now. It seems it likes a .356 boolit, even though it measured a bit larger.

When I use lubed bullets I pretty much run with .357 sizing. I have had excellent results with 4.1 gr of Win 231/HP38 under Lyman's 125 gr 356402 truncated cone bullet. This TC design/load is my go to bullet for IDPA/IPSC. With the coating I have been sizing .356 after running into problems at .357. The problems seem to be unaffected by the change so I may go back to .357. This size has worked very well in all my 9MM guns though I suspect .356 would work just as well.

If your PRO is recent production you should have the 1-10 twist barrel. If it is old inventory, not likely, it will have a 1-18 twist. The slower twist is not what you want.

Take care

Bob

[zomby woof]

If your PRO is recent production you should have the 1-10 twist barrel. If it is old inventory, not likely, it will have a 1-18 twist. The slower twist is not what you want.
Bob

Mine was made this year. It seems to work best with .356. I tried .357 and .358, I'm sticking with .356. I'm using the LEE 356-125 and 358-150.

[robertbank]

Mine was made this year. It seems to work best with .356. I tried .357 and .358, I'm sticking with .356. I'm using the LEE 356-125 and 358-150.

Yes .358 would be just to big I would think. .356 is going to work for sure. The 356-125 would be my choice for accuracy.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Best .223 at range Lee Bator C225-55 Powder H CFE 223


Second best .223 Lee Bator Powder H4895


Best .308 Lee CTL 312-160- 2R Powder H CFE 223 This was right before I noticed that the scope was slipping back and forth in the rings. Switched guns for the next shots.


Best Lee C309-160R with no gas check same loads used as when gas checked with 1 1/2" groups. This one hit about two feet left of the point of aim tumbling as it went.


All had three coats of the 1035 Gold liquid.

None of the other five shots for the ones without gas checks even hit the two targets I had set up next to each other an area about 4'X4'. I think I could have loaded these down about 600 fps and put them on target. Also note temperature was 50 F when shot the good group and 85 F for these shots. Pressure was too much for the bullet and I was expecting to see the barrel leaded more. I was pleasantly surprised to only find a small amount of leading right at the end of the barrel. It took about five minutes to clean the barrel. I also was getting the white puff of smoke some of you were noting for shots that were not grouping well.

Barrels in the other two guns were clean except for powder fouling.

Not sure why photos are loading sideways.

[robertbank]

Well I was out today and the GC'd 356402 ran with no leading in my PRO so we are getting nearer to solving the issue. Tomorrow I will coat 100 bullets using 3 grams per 100ml more powder than before. I will also water quench one batch after each coating and air cool one batch after each coating. Bullets will be sized .356 after the 2nd coat. Each batch will be shot in the M&P PRO.

I will weigh 100 bullets and scale down the coating to maintain a coating to bullet weight ratio of 5ML of coating to 2000 grams of bullets.

Each batch will be baked at 400F in a preheated oven for 10 minutes with a rack shake at the 5th minute mark. No GC's will be used.

Bullet alloy is WW alloy. The same alloy I use for all my cast bullets (Pistol & Rifle).

I do water quench all lead bullets destined to high pressure calibers (All rifle, 9MM, .357MAG, 40Cal, & 44mag.

Bob

[gunoil]

Kangaroos are left handed.

[Gremlin460]

Kangaroos are left handed.

only the ones on the right side of the field.

[Gremlin460]

Busy day at the range, had to run 2 NRA classes so didn't get much trigger time in myself. I did a 48 rnd NRA match and used RN124gn out of a lee mold in gold. These are WW. They were coated early last year.. Leading = Nil.

Our humidity is slowly dropping so I can get back into the coating as stocks are running low on FN 128gn and I am out of conicals all together.

I am also nearly out of AP50N powder, cant find any in this state or Northern NSW. So it looks like its time to find another suitable Pistol powder and re-do all the R&R to find what works for me. Hate that... but life goes on.

[redrockant]

Grem I've been using AS50 for ages. AP45 should be out soon

[Balta]

Just finish my first batch of recently recived HiTek powder Bronza 500...This is great coating...
142566
Smash test show that this is strong coating..like concrete :)
142567142569
I like bullets fully coated so i use 3 coats ,1 ml for lb..This is 9 mm 135 grain no lube groves bullets from MP molds.
i did get nice coverege even with 2 coats but i deciede to go with 3.
This is how 2 coats look like.
142570

[ioon44]

Really nice boolits, what is your bake time and temperature?
My first try with the Bronze 500 didn't pass the smash test, maybe be cause I tried to hurry the process.

[Balta]

Really nice boolits, what is your bake time and temperature?
My first try with the Bronze 500 didn't pass the smash test, maybe be cause I tried to hurry the process.

I bake 12 minutes at 200 C...6 minutes at fully 200 C ,shake the bullets and another 6 minutes at fully 200 C...
Most of my fails was because i try to hury proces :) It MUST be fully dried before bake...i leave it overnight ,and preheat before baking...

[ioon44]

I bake 12 minutes at 200 C...6 minutes at fully 200 C ,shake the bullets and another 6 minutes at fully 200 C...
Most of my fails was because i try to hury proces :) It MUST be fully dried before bake...i leave it overnight ,and preheat before baking...

That is the bake time and temperature I have been using, I tried to force dry the coating. So back to drying over night, I have had no problems with the over night drying method.

[Balta]

When is high level of humidity i dont even try to coat...just leave it for sunny days..

[Michael J. Spangler]

It's 76% humidity here today. I just coated some rounds with what appears to be red copper with no ill effects. Works fine!
Must be super humid where you are. I hate humidity. My sympathies.

[Ausglock]

When the humidity is high, I have a pedastal fan blowing across the trays of coated bullets on the drying table. Only needs 10 minutes and they are good to go.

[HI-TEK]

Just finish my first batch of recently received Hi-Tek powder Bronze 500...This is great coating...
142566
Smash test show that this is strong coating..like concrete :)
142567142569
I like bullets fully coated so i use 3 coats ,1 ml for lb..This is 9 mm 135 grain no lube groves bullets from MP molds.
i did get nice coverage even with 2 coats but i decide to go with 3.
This is how 2 coats look like.
142570

They look great, Looks like you have become very expert with coating.
It is great to see good results.
Secret with drying, simply, coat thin coats as first coat, and, if humid conditions, simply warm projectiles to about 30-40C before first coating, and quickly add and coat with first coat. Coat just long enough (10-15 seconds) to cover, and dump onto drying mesh.
The warm bullets will help drying quickly. Fan blowing air across drying bullets at same time, will help to quickly dry also.
Thank you for posting your work, very nice results.

[Ausglock]

Yeah. Good Job, Balta.
About time you got it together.
Looks just like bought ones.

[Balta]

Yeah. Good Job, Balta.
About time you got it together.
Looks just like bought ones.
Well..thank you ,mister HiTek MASTER :)

[HI-TEK]

Joe here is a photo of some 9MM 125 gr bullets I retreived the other day from the back of our berm. They are shot into river sand that has been sandbagged and placed at the back of our IDPA pits. In the upper right there is a 9MM bullet, coated and ready to be loaded and to the right of it is a 158 gr 38spl bullet coated with regular powder coating. You can see, if you look close traces of red coating on the bullet. for the most part it has been stripped off of the bullet. There is no Hi-Tek coating left on any of the 9MM bullets I retrieved. I would not expect any either. The sand is pretty abrasive.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a387/robertbank/2015-07-06%2002.31.59.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/robertbank/media/2015-07-06%2002.31.59.jpg.html)

Take Care

Bob

Looking at the recovered shot projectiles, I notice a white powdery film on all recovered metal.
If I see things correctly, it is suggesting to me, that your alloy does contain high levels of contaminants, possibly Zinc, Cadmium, or other metals, that will form such white corrosion products.
If these metals are present, in levels indicated, I am not surprised at coating peeling off surface of alloy.
These reactive metal contaminants, affect strong adhesion of coating to the alloy as coating cannot prevent such Oxidation corrosion taking place.
What I also suspect is, that if water quenching is used with such alloys, this actually will accelerate surface reactions with these contaminant metals, forming the white powdery surface, which prevents good adhesion of coating as well.
With many coating processes, some difficult metals and alloys are in fact Acid Etched, and washed and dried to remove surface reactive metals, and before coatings are applied.
I am not talking about Hi-Tek.
I am aware of metals being Phosphate anodised, (dipped into acid baths), to create surface pitting, and areas for coatings to bond, so any "active" metals, are removed at surfaces, and will not be interfering with coating process.
I dont know if this is applicable to your alloy, but I have a strong suspicion, that this is why you may have problems with coating not performing as required.
I would love to be there with you to look at things and help sort things out for you.
It would be a hoot.

[robertbank]

Joe the colour you are refering to is just dust from the berm I did not wash the bullets off. Old post as well. Coating has worked quite well with 38spl bullets. 9MM without gas checks is just a leading mess. I am about to do some testing with water quenched coated bullets. Water quenching after each bake. I will see if that stops the leading in 9MM.

Bob

[HI-TEK]

Joe the colour you are refering to is just dust from the berm I did not wash the bullets off. Old post as well. Coating has worked quite well with 38spl bullets. 9MM without gas checks is just a leading mess. I am about to do some testing with water quenched coated bullets. Water quenching after each bake. I will see if that stops the leading in 9MM.

Bob

Thanks much Bob.
It certainly looked like the white corrosion oxides I have seen on scrap Lead, that was cast here into fishing sinkers.
The fishing sinkers all formed a white powdery crust in storage inside a shed on a shelf.
I could easily rub it off with my fingers in most areas, but was hard crystalline in other areas where scratching was required to remove crust that was formed.
I noticed, that cast lead with contaminants, have a "ring" to them when they are dropped from Mold, but pure Lead sounds a like a dead dull thud when dropped from Mold.
Many fishing folk here, (may be superstitious baloney) but these guys claim that using these contaminated alloys on Reef fishing, they claim that it "spooks" fish with the "ring" when the contaminated Lead hits the reef.
They will not use any thing but pure Lead with their sinkers and catch more fish.
I am sceptical, but who knows....lol...lol

[Ausglock]

Robabank.
Just for schist N Giggles..
Give some of your non Gas checked, coated 9mm bullets to somebody else to try in their guns.

I really thing it your *** M&P that is the issue.

[robertbank]

Robabank.
Just for schist N Giggles..
Give some of your non Gas checked, coated 9mm bullets to somebody else to try in their guns.

I really thing it your *** M&P that is the issue.

Well what about my Three CZ's I shot them in as well. Same leading mess. They have the same 1 - 10 twist as the barrel in the M&P. I suspect it is the alloy ie WW with a bit of tin added. When you bake the bullets you do anneal them in the process. How much, I have no idea. I am going to try water quenching the bullets after each bake. The bullets run fine in the low pressure 38spl (GP-100 & Uberti SAA),. not so much in the 9MM.

Take Care

Bob
Ps I will figure it out, just may take some time.
PPS You just have to be a Glock shooter. LOL

[Avenger442]

Isn't Glock the only real choice? :kidding:

Actually I prefer Rugers, But doesn't everyone have their favorite?

Going to coat some with the 007 Gunmetal powder this week. Photos coming.

[Stephen Cohen]

I had to order some more coating last night, which resulted in over an hour of informative conversation with Hi-Tek Joe. In spite of what Ausglock would have us believe, Joe was sober. Joe has asked that I share all my findings and results with the team here. In the next couple of weeks I will work out photo bucket and post some photos of my results. I don't consider myself an expert but this coating was working for me from the very first bake.

[HI-TEK]

I had to order some more coating last night, which resulted in over an hour of informative conversation with Hi-Tek Joe. In spite of what Ausglock would have us believe, Joe was sober. Joe has asked that I share all my findings and results with the team here. In the next couple of weeks I will work out photo bucket and post some photos of my results. I don't consider myself an expert but this coating was working for me from the very first bake.

Hi Stephen
Now you have done it.
Let the cat out of the bag. You revealed my secret additives, Bourbon...
I almost got away with it by telling all, that I drank it all...:drinks:
Now I have to find alternatives. lol lol.

Just an update, last night I had advice on new ingredients, recently developed that hopefully may work. These are new coloured components, Violet, Blue Violet and Magenta.
By the week end, there should be some product made for testing.
I am hoping that these will survive the nasty heat during bake.
Will keep things updated.

[robertbank]

Well success comes to he who is stubborn. Acting on the advice Of Donnie M. I added 10% powder to my mix to acetone (20.3 grams to 100ml). I did to batches of 60 bullets. One batch I water quenched after each bake while the other I air dried. I applied three coats. All were air dried in a hot sun and left over night. The bullets were dry after about an hour in the sun for certain but I didn`t want to deal with the question whether or not the bullets were dry enough. After the 2nd bake the bullets were sized .356 using a push through die. The bullets once coated and baked for the third time were loaded over 3.7 gr of PB and shot in an M&P PRO 5`` pistol with a 1 - 10 twist. NO LEADING was observed with either group of bullets. I intend to repeat the process again using water quenching after each batch.

The above worked for me and my gun. It may be what makes it work for you or not. I will say that both batches failed the smash test and passed the acetone rub test for the two bullets I did the test on.

If the repeat process works then I intend to make this my sole method of dealing with 9MM bullets. I have already made that decision with the 38spl loads I use.

Next up will be my 40cal, 45acp and 45 Colt bullets.

It has been a long journey to get this far. I have two coffee cans of coated 9MM bullets that will require gas checks in order to prevent leading which is ok as I have a plain base gas check maker, thanks to Pat Marlin. I also intend to continue to use powder coating, a process I can do in the winter when temperature fall to 0C.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Joe
I have a question. I mixed up some of the Gunmetal powder tonight to use in coating tomorrow and I noticed some white flakes in the powder. Are they supposed to be there? Didn't notice this in the black powder.

[HI-TEK]

Joe
I have a question. I mixed up some of the Gunmetal powder tonight to use in coating tomorrow and I noticed some white flakes in the powder. Are they supposed to be there? Didn't notice this in the black powder.

Quite normal.
When you mix up the brew, there is no real colour that develops.
Mixture looks like milky hazy suspension.
Colour develops, when you start coating/shaking in your coating tub.
If I knew how to post the picture, I would post the brew mixture and final colour that develops after coating and baking.
May be Ausglock can post this colour photo.

[Ausglock]

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150321_171315.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150321_171315.jpg.html)

White flakes in the unmixed powder is normal. I think it is the Micronized catalyst.
Most of the powdered coating seems to have this in it.
You can notice it more in the darker powders.

[Avenger442]

Ausglock my mix with the acetone looks like yours when it is shaken to mix it. Almost like light blue milk. Got some on the outside of the container and on my fingers and it turned blue.

I need to look again at the black powder. It has been a while. It might have the flakes and I just don't remember.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;3291581]Ausglock my mix with the acetone looks like yours when it is shaken to mix it. Kind of like light blue milk. Got some on the outside of the container and on my fingers and it turned blue.

You are naughty, as you supposed to be wearing protective gloves.
Now the "black magic" sneaky coating, has coated your finger instead of your alloy.

[Avenger442]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;3291581]Ausglock my mix with the acetone looks like yours when it is shaken to mix it. Kind of like light blue milk. Got some on the outside of the container and on my fingers and it turned blue.

You are naughty, as you supposed to be wearing protective gloves.
Now the "black magic" sneaky coating, has coated your finger instead of your alloy.

Just love the smell of acetone in the morning. LOL

[Ausglock]

Anyone would think I was "Batting for the other side". I have different coloured coatings all over my fingernails.
At the moment, I have a few Green, 2 black and one Bronze500 and another Gold 1035.....:bigsmyl2:

[HI-TEK]

Anyone would think I was "Batting for the other side". I have different coloured coatings all over my fingernails.
At the moment, I have a few Green, 2 black and one Bronze500 and another Gold 1035.....:bigsmyl2:


Well, with your multi-coloured lawns, and glowing fence-posts, and Aliens hovering over your place, admiring your glowing colours, there has been some talking taking place in some circles...lol...lol.
You must have been hiding your fingernails last time we met......I was wondering why the long soft Leather gloves in such a warm time... lol lol

[Ausglock]

This is the Steel Single Bed frame that we use for drying our trays of coated bullets on. Sit 2 fans to blow across the table. Works a treat and the frame only cost $5 at a yard sale.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20150622_171515.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20150622_171515.jpg.html)

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Ausglock;3291796]This is the Steel Single Bed frame that we use for drying our trays of coated bullets on. Sit 2 fans to blow across the table. Works a treat and the frame only cost $5 at a yard sale.

That is innovation at it's best.
After summer, Bunnings had a sale of household pedestal fans for $10.00 each, marked down.
Very cheap and functional equipment. When they pack up, simply becomes scrap steel.

[Avenger442]

Well, finally got finished with the 007 Gunmetal.



Now to load it and shoot some tight groups. :Fire:

[NYBushBro]

Just love the smell of acetone in the morning. LOL

"Smells like... VICTORY!"

[HI-TEK]

142970

Well, finally got finished with the 007 Gunmetal.

142971Here they are right after casting. 142972 This is right before 1st bake. 142973 After 1st bake. 142974 1st wipe and smash. 142975142976 Final.

Now to load it and shoot some tight groups. :Fire:

They look great.
They wont even see them coming, as they are 007 issue...lol...lol

[andre3k]

Finally. Success. They look and shoot great. Hardline 230gr RN sized to .452

143040

[gunoil]

Show off........

[Ausglock]

Finally. Success. They look and shoot great. Hardline 230gr RN sized to .452

143040

Nice. Did some myself on Friday with Gold 1035.

[HI-TEK]

What has amazed me is, that Ausglock advised, that he had used coating mixture, that he made back in February, with Gold 1035 powder.
Apparently, it coated well as the day he made it up.

Ausglock has had similar results, with other coating colours, made from powders, that were made up months ago.

I dont know how he stores the made up mixtures, but whatever he is doing seems to work great.

As these powdered products are new technology, when comparing them with the solvent based systems, I am constantly being surprised with some of the results (all good) being obtained.
Thank you all for your blogs

[Ausglock]

No special storage.
The coating in question was the Sample for testing prior to being shipped to the USA to verify that is was correct.

The bottle of mixed coating was sitting on the shed floor along with a few other test samples.

It coated 100% fine.
Shelf life is now being tested. I'm going to leave it till September (our spring) and try it again. It has now been mixed for 4 months.

[Avenger442]

I would like to know the answer to the shelf life issue myself. Until this last batch of coating I have had enough cast bullets to use up the coating I had mixed. This time I have leftover coating in one of those ketchup bottles you see in restaurants that has a snap on cap. It's not air tight because I had coating on my hands after shaking it up. Probably need to move to something better sealed.

[ioon44]

What I found to seal air tight is the 266ml dish soap bottles, they have a snap on cap and are heavy enough to last a while.

[popper]

Still using the liquid green I mixed almost a year ago, stored in mustard squeesy. I did add more acetone as some had evaporated. Shoots fine in 9 & 40SW.

[ioon44]

I just bought a Digital Thermometer with a K Type probe and found that my oven with the cheap oven thermometers showing 200deg C was actually running up to 225deg C. The oven is a built in Jenn-air convection.

I have been baking for 12 min with 2kg of boolits on the screen, the Candy Apple Red has came out looking Maroon and passed the smash & wipe test OK and shoots fine.

I turned the oven dial down to where the temperature stays 198deg C to 213deg
C during the 12 min bake cycle. I don't know if I should lower the temp setting any more?

I am having trouble with the new Bronze mixed 125/20 applied to .45 cal 405gr boolits not passing the smash test, what should I do different with the 405gr boolits?

[Ausglock]

Don't have too many on the tray. go by weight, not count.

Reduce the amount of coating used per tray.
Normally 5 to 6mls per 2kg of alloy.
reduce this to 3-4mls per 2kg of alloy.
The larger heavier bullets will need 3 thinner coats and probably bake still at 12 minutes.
Drill a hole up the bum of one bullet and insert a K probe to check the alloy temp while baking.

[HI-TEK]

I just bought a Digital Thermometer with a K Type probe and found that my oven with the cheap oven thermometers showing 200deg C was actually running up to 225deg C. The oven is a built in Jenn-air convection.

I have been baking for 12 min with 2kg of boolits on the screen, the Candy Apple Red has came out looking Maroon and passed the smash & wipe test OK and shoots fine.

I turned the oven dial down to where the temperature stays 198deg C to 213deg
C during the 12 min bake cycle. I don't know if I should lower the temp setting any more?

I am having trouble with the new Bronze mixed 125/20 applied to .45 cal 405gr boolits not passing the smash test, what should I do different with the 405gr boolits?

Most consistent failures with smash test after first bake/coat, is that coating was applied too thick or too much, and not enough drying before bake, (or both)

Overloading weight into a small oven, without adequate fan forced air circulation will also affect cure time required, and consistency of bake across tray.
Larger weight projectiles will take longer to heat up, especially if no fan forced air is available.
Trying to bake coatings, (especially first coat) if not totally dry, seems mostly why there is no bonding to alloy and fail smash test.
If first coat fails smash test, do not continue with second coat. Work out why first coat did not bond after bake.
When coating has not been dried adequately, and coating/alloy reaches 200C, this temperature will not guarantee bonding.
My suggestion is, simply bake a few, after different drying time intervals, to determine when coating has adequately dried and is suitable for baking.

[Michael J. Spangler]

What I found to seal air tight is the 266ml dish soap bottles, they have a snap on cap and are heavy enough to last a while. that's an awesome idea. I'm going to save my dish soap bottle and give it a go.
I've been using a mason jar and it's worked fine for me but the snap lid would be so much easier.


Still using the liquid green I mixed almost a year ago, stored in mustard squeesy. I did add more acetone as some had evaporated. Shoots fine in 9 & 40SW.

I haven't had any sit around that long but I have had mixes sit around for months in the heat and freezing temps with no issues at all. This stuff holds up great.

[Intel6]

I finally got to try some of the powder when I got some of the new Bronze 500 from Donnie. I like it so much better than the liquid!

So I had been wanting to try HT on some rifle bullets so I figured it was as good a time as any.

The Bronze 500 coated well though I know I put it on a bit heavy. Tried out a new squirt bottle and it was letting me add too much mix to the coating bowl. I have to try something else next batch.

Neal in AZ

In the pic below L to R:

NOE .40 cal 200 gr. TC - loaded long in a .40 case for my STI's
Lee 500 gr. coated and gas checked - loaded in a .458 SOCOM round for subsonic shooting
NOE 186 Collar Button for 45-70 - same loaded in a 45-70 case
NOE 350 RD for 45-70 coated and gas checked - same loaded in 45-70

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/Bronze_500.jpg

[Ausglock]

That is a sweet looking .40 bullet.

Get a 10ml Syringe from a drug store with 1ml graduations and use that to suck up your coating and apply to the bullets.
Most accurate way to apply it.
You can then store your coating in screw top jars.

Joe sent some new colours yesterday. Going to mix and coat with them tonight.
Magenta, Blue violet and red violet.

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=Ausglock;3295930]Don't have too many on the tray. go by weight, not count.

Reduce the amount of coating used per tray.
Normally 5 to 6mls per 2kg of alloy.
reduce this to 3-4mls per 2kg of alloy.
The larger heavier bullets will need 3 thinner coats and probably bake still at 12 minutes.
Drill a hole up the bum of one bullet and insert a K probe to check the alloy temp while baking.[QUOTE

Ausglock Thanks for the info

I drilled one of the .405gr boolits to accept the K-Type probe and baked it with a 2kg of .405gr coated with Bronze mixed to 125/20 and 3 to 4 ml of coating.

Starting with 24deg C it took 6min to reach 179deg C and at the end of 14min it showed 205deg C, so according to this test the boolits were 180deg C + for 8min.

After they cooled I smashed one and did not get any flaking, so I applied the 2nd coat 3 to 4ml and will bake these tomorrow.

Question after the first thin coat passes could I go to 5 to 6ml for the other coats?

[Ausglock]

I'd suggest you try the 3 thinner coats to check if they work.
If they do, Then try going back to 5mls per coat for the last 2 coats and see how it goes.
Everyone will get slightly different results due to oven variations, alloy variations, etc etc.