My First Attempt at a "D-Bit" Bullet Mold

[DoctorBill]

My first mold was made with a Ball End Mill in a block of Aluminum.

I want to warn everyone that I am a rank amateur with almost no machining experience.
I have a bench grinder, Air Compressor, and a Bench Drill Press - That is it.

My machinist friend (Gary K), bored the holes followed by the Ball End Mill (Grizzly.com)
in his Lathe.

See: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1567770&postcount=1

That Thread became rather lengthy and wordy with lots of side issues.

Anyway - I was convinced by some contributors that I should make a "D-Bit" and bore a mold with that method.

This Thread is concerned with my first D-Bit attempt....

My machinist friend told me about ENCO - http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM

So I ordered some Oil Hardened Drill Rod in one yard sections(7/16ths and 0.452").

Using an Air Cut-Off Saw, I ground off a four inch section of 0.438 (7/16") rod and shaped a
bullet head 'free hand' on my Bench Grinder.

Finished it off by polishing it on the end of my Bench Drill Press with emery paper and
then "FLITZ" metal polish. Took no more than 30 minutes to do !

http://www.mynetimages.com/3e6e817bed.jpg

Now I have to grind half of it off lengthwise for a D-Bit.
That part worries me....I could 'booger up' the whole thing !

Oh well....I can get nine 4 inch chunks of Drill Rod out of each $9 Drill Rod piece.
Repeat until I get it right...

Am I off to a decent start, fellows ?

DoctorBill

PS - Now to repeat this employing the 0.452 Drill Rod for a larger diameter bullet.

[FrankG]

Looking good ! Paint it up with a felt tipped marker for cheap lay out blue . Lay the un touched shank on flat surface and clamp down then adjust micrometer to half of boolit width , lock in place and use it to scribe the length of boolit marking the half way point.

Thats my hayseed method when Ive made the 'D' type :)

[DoctorBill]

My friend (Gary the Machinist) advised me to grind the center rounded
inward so that the edge has a positive "rake" to it to attack the Aluminum.
That would be at the final grinding stage.

I ground down both sides as far as I want to w/o my friend Gary having
a look at my work.

Here are two different views of the 0.438 rod ground down.
I kept the metal cool in cold water - never let it get too hot.

http://www.mynetimages.com/8bfb4f0d1c.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/c7af84792b.jpg

There are a lot of reflections in the metal - looks boogered up - it isn't.

Should I grind off 'most' of the straight part so just the rounded tip and
just a bit of the straight touches the cavity ? It would bore out a
straight hole and the round tip w/o dragging chips along the wall.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

I ground down both sides as far as I want to w/o my friend Gary having a look at my work.

Hmmm ... !
I thought that one side stayed round and the other side disappeared on the grinder, so you have (like) half of a bullet with a rod attached to the base.

Didn't expect to see material ground off of both sides of a remaining center piece.

But, I'm even more rank than the amature running this thread. I haven't even watched a machinist work ...

CM

[FrankG]

Uhmm..............Should have been ground from one side only . Thats why I scribe a center line to keep me on track. The back side also applies the pressure for the cutting edge to cut .

[DoctorBill]

I was thinking of this cutter...from another thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1570692&postcount=17

It would cut on the leading edge of both sides, no ?

What I wonder about is how the very tip of the bullet shape (of the tool) can cut ?

I suppose that if you pre-drill to just under the diameter of the tool, it
should work (in Aluminum).

This is hardened steel against Aluminum.

That is why I want Gary (the machinist) to see it.

I suspect that he will tell me to grind the tip portion down to the half-way point.

I can always grind another one.....

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

It would cut on the leading edge of both sides, no ?
What you have there is a form of 'spade bit' rather than a 'D bit'. It would need something on the front end (like a spike or a pilot) to keep it centered.

You want a shape like the letter D.
The round rod you started with was the O and you need to grind away half of it so only the D remains.

CM

[FrankG]

Never tried one like that . Have always went with the 'D' type . But , hey if it works , all the better !

[HollowPoint]

On my first attempt at making and using a "D" type reamer/bit I used a Grade-8 bolt.

In a state of laziness I didn't bother trying to harden it when it was done. Hardening didn't
turn out to be necessary because I was using it in an aluminum mold. I did have to make sure it was sharp though.

I'm sure the hardened drill rod would have worked even better but, I just happened to have a
grade-8 bolt in my junk-drawer to experiment with.

From the look of your finished tool it appears that you may encounter some metal shavings getting
trapped between the walls of your cavities and the rounded parts of your bit but, I've been wrong before more times than I can count.

HollowPoint

[uscra112]

What you've got there has a cutting edge with what lathe hands call "negative rake". The top surface of the edge is tilted toward the metal it's cutting. This IS sometimes used in very heavy roughing cuts in steel, but it's done more to strengthen the edge for longer life. Negative rake doesn't work in aluminum at all. You need positive rake, which is what you will have if you start from one side of the tool and grind right to the center. (Actually grinding to the diameter gets you zero rake, which will work. Looking at the end of the tool, it looks like the letter D, hence the name. If you are skillful enough, holding to tool so that the flat side of the D is actually hollowed out a bit is best. Doing this free-hand is hard, but it can be done. I did one on a little surface grinder I picked up years ago.

The tool in that other thread has been doctored quite a lot to create the positive rake, and also to relieve the part below the edge so it doesn't drag. Even harder to do free-hand. And he's ground reliefs on the nose so it will drill in.

[Flinchrock]

My friend (Gary the Machinist) advised me to grind the center rounded
inward so that the edge has a positive "rake" to it to attack the Aluminum.
That would be at the final grinding stage.

I ground down both sides as far as I want to w/o my friend Gary having
a look at my work.

Here are two different views of the 0.438 rod ground down.
I kept the metal cool in cold water - never let it get too hot.

http://www.mynetimages.com/8bfb4f0d1c.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/c7af84792b.jpg

There are a lot of reflections in the metal - looks boogered up - it isn't.

Should I grind off 'most' of the straight part so just the rounded tip and
just a bit of the straight touches the cavity ? It would bore out a
straight hole and the round tip w/o dragging chips along the wall.

DoctorBill

I don't think it's gonna cut well,,if at all...

Needs to be a "D"

If ya want to make another one and send it to me, I'll do it for you on my surface grinder,,free...

[DoctorBill]

OK then...I will make another round nosed rod and grind off only half of it.

From what uscra112 says, it looks like I had best grind off about 90% of
one side and then take it to my machinist friend to finish off on his
tool grinder.

I do have positive rake on one side of the tool - I pushed it into the grinding
stone and let it take the shape of the stone.

http://www.mynetimages.com/da08b17892.jpg

As to not centering - I plan to have a 1/8 inch pilot hole plus several different
sized drill holes to remove most of the Aluminum before using this tool.

I had thought that that is what you do first - get most of the Aluminum out
with drill bits.

So if I grind each side "Hollow Ground" - would this work to ream out a pre-drilled
cavity ?

Here I ground it a bit more and put an LED Flashlight on each side to illustrate
the curve of the edges. They are sharp. I can try it on some pre-drilled, scrap Aluminum.

http://www.mynetimages.com/b67ab8651d.jpg

Which direction does a Milling Machine rotate the tool (if viewing my picture above) ?
CW or CCW ? I could "relieve" the following edges since they don't do any cutting.

DoctorBill

BTW - I grind the rod end close to what I want, by hand, then put the 7/16ths
rod in my 1/2 inch Black & Decker Drill and then grind the end while the rod spins.

Much easier to get the shape I want quickly.
.

[Flinchrock]

Make a roughing tool and a finishing tool.
as long as you leave some material for the finish tool, they dont have to match exactly, then pilot, rough, and finish. you oughta come out alright.

[DoctorBill]

First off gentlemen, let me say that I am not challenging anyone's comments
or opinions here !

This is how I do things - if it is new to me, I try to understand why things work
as they do.

It just seems to me this ought to work with a pre-drilled cavity.

If it does not, I will be right back telling you it doesn't work !

Here is a close up of the bit's end.
http://www.mynetimages.com/a71b432a61.jpg
Photo taken with a jeweler's loupe held over a Digital C613 Kodak EasyShare's lens.
Press button half-way down, move camera in and out to get best focus, finish clicking.
PhotoShop the result. Any photo handling software will do the job.

The edges have positive rake and are sharp.
Gary (the machinist) thinks I need to heat harden it also.

I'll watch him do it and learn by observation....my main method.

I WILL make a Kosher D-Bit also !

Having come this far, I want to see what THIS ONE does....on a piece of
scrap Aluminum....
just for my brain cells to see.

DoctorBill

PS - I guess I just have to accept the fact that I cannot make a bullet mold
without using some special tools....
.

[Longwood]

Bill
Start over and grind it to the half way point to get enough rake.
All that tool will do is sqeek.
You could use an endmill to repair your attempt but I kanow you don't have that luxury.
It does not necessarily need to be heat treated but it does need to be sharp.
The photos clearly shows it is EXTREMELY dull.
It can and should be sharpened to a RAZOR edge.

It is possible to machine one with two or three cutting edges but a small lathe or mill is necessary.

[longbow]

+1 on what Longwood says about sharpness. I use a diamond hone on the flat until the edge is sharp enough to shave fingernail with a light stroke.

You can make a spade bit (sort of what you have done) but a D bit being 1/2 the diameter will cut like a drill bit and ream at the same time. It is best to remove most of the metal with drill bits or by boring before using the D bit but they will actually cut a lot of metal if taken slowly. A spade bit may cut faster but will require side clearances ground on it or it will bind.

Longbow

[Longwood]

I do have positive rake on one side of the tool - I pushed it into the grinding
stone and let it take the shape of the stone.

http://www.mynetimages.com/da08b17892.jpg


.

Draw an imaginary line between the cutting edge and the center of the tool and you will see that you do not.
If you use a smaller diameter wheel and grind your flats exacty the same depth on each side, then your tool may work if you get it sharp enough.
A dull tool will make marks you have to polish out so either get it very very sharp or make sure the tool will drill a smaller hole than you need.
You can tell when it is sharp. It will give you little razor cuts if you handle it.

[DoctorBill]

Alright gentlemen - it is in the garbage can going out tomorrow night to the dump.

I will cut off a 7/16th inch by four inch rod tomorrow morning and grind
the bullet nose shape I want into it. Maybe ask Gary to finish it off in his Lathe.

Then I'll do the D-Bit thing to it - or ask Gary to show me how he would handle it.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

Can your 'oil hardened drill rod' be cut with a saw or file?
CM

[Rojelio]

Dr. Bill, don't throw your first attempt away you may be able to salvage it. If not, you may want to make something else out of it.

The way you made yours, I don't think it will ever cut, but if you grind away the back edge of each side and sharpen it real good, it might work. I don't think it will plunge cut. You'll have to predrill the hole.

I made mine as a flat nose centercutting design because I like a wide meplat because I mainly use my bullets for hunting not target shooting.

Here's a picture of the cutter that you tried to copy from a different angle so you can see what I'm talking about.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb280/rojelio0/IMAG01812.jpg
Good luck and keep after it. You'll master the demons.

PS:Before this thread, I never heard of a D reamer. My next one may be that design:drinks:

[Longwood]

Can your 'oil hardened drill rod' be cut with a saw or file?
CM

I was wondering the same thing.
Did you buy Oil hardenable steel or oil hardened steel?

[nanuk]

is it necessary to make a D?

what is the science behind the D?

if one is going to use a Mill to remove material, could you just remove "Most of the D" and leave a little bit going round the back? ie/ instead of 180deg of roundness, you could have 270 degree, and only remove 1/4 of the material, removing a 1/4 piece of the pie as it were.

would this not give better support and a more true hole?

[DoctorBill]

I can cut it with a file, but a Hack Saw blade kinda slides over it.
After grinding it down, Gary will want to heat harden it, methinks.

I made a new bullet shaped 7/16" by 4 inch rod this morning.

Will show it to Gary (the machinist) this afternoon after my Lab Sections.
(Molecular Polarity)

This is discouraging having to rely on other people and ask for help.

I sure would like a Lathe, but even $1,200 for one is quite a lot for me.

BTW - How would one cut a nice round nosed shape on a Lathe, anyway ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/0b65c90665.jpg

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

I can cut it with a file, but a Hack Saw blade kinda slides over it.
After grinding it down, Gary will want to heat harden it, methinks.

I made a new bullet shaped 7/16" by 4 inch rod this morning.

Will show it to Gary (the machinist) this afternoon after my Lab Sections.
(Molecular Polarity)

This is discouraging having to rely on other people and ask for help.

I sure would like a Lathe, but even $1,200 for one is quite a lot for me.

BTW - How would one cut a nice round nosed shape on a Lathe, anyway ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/0b65c90665.jpg

DoctorBill

Don't get frustrated and don't worry about buging people here.
When we get tired of giving you advice we will slowly fade way.
I have a feeling your machinest friend is more interested than you may think.

First, that drill rod needs to be as smooth as a mirror or when it is machined down, the edge will look like a serated knife.
Ask your friend to show you how shiny and sharp a new endmill is.

Most of us do the rounded end with a file. I could also be done with a ball atachment but setting it and resetting it for the multiple radiuses would be a pain in the ,,,,
The flat we do with a end-mill, or if not an option, a grinder. a file, then a sharpening stone then a finer hard Arkansas stone or a fine diamond hone if available.
Making it sharp will take much more time than the machine work so don't get in a big hurry.

[uscra112]

Don't give up there. Doctor Bill. Just remind yourself that gunsmiths of the 18th century made cherries to cut molds with nothing more than blacksmith's tools. In fact, you have a possibility to create the correct geometry there, using a cold chisel and a hammer, so long as the bit is still soft. Yep! I'll leave you to think about that one for a while. . . . . . When you figure it out, you'll also know how files were made, (and still are).

[Cap'n Morgan]

if one is going to use a Mill to remove material, could you just remove "Most of the D" and leave a little bit going round the back? ie/ instead of 180deg of roundness, you could have 270 degree, and only remove 1/4 of the material, removing a 1/4 piece of the pie as it were.

Nanuk.

The cutter on the right is made that way. 270 deg makes for a more rigid design. It also leaves less room for swarf, but thats only a problem when milling a mold with the blocks closed.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8122/img0861op.jpg

[Chicken Thief]

That pic made my nose bleed!

Way fine handiwork mate.

[Longwood]

The black one in the photo is one I made with a mill.
Note the cut on the end. The other side is just like this side.
In order to get the rake I wanted, I cut a little past the center line of the stock.

[DoctorBill]

http://www.mynetimages.com/d8806d865b.jpg

Gary's Tool Grinder did this. He cut a test cavity in a Magnesium Rod he had
laying about and tomorrow I will fill it with Lead to see what is produced.

He also took that "Bad Thing" I had made and ground is down in various places
and used that to cut a hole in that same Magnesium rod.
He doesn't want me to throw it out - he said, "might use it someday."

http://www.mynetimages.com/edcab77673.jpg
Cut nicely...just for the Heck of it....to see if he could salvage it.
Probably will never use it for anything - who knows ?

DoctorBill

[oneokie]

Looks good. Needs sharpening.

[Longwood]

Save the reworked one.
Maybe you could make a mold for frozen coffee supositories for a summer time buzz.:bigsmyl2:

[DoctorBill]

SHOW US YOUR TOOL - GUYS ! PUT PHOTOS UP HERE.

"Looks good. Needs sharpening"

It cut just fine like it is....he pre-drilled first of course.
Oh - and BTW - he heat hardened it also....after testing it's cutting ability
in the Magnesium Rod.

"frozen coffee supositories" Hmmmm

What I am getting from all these comments is that
there are many routes from here to there and many opinions.
Many many opinions.
What was it that Dirty Harry said ?
Every body has one......

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

SHOW US YOUR TOOL - GUYS ! PUT PHOTOS UP HERE.

"Looks good. Needs sharpening"

It cut just fine like it is....he pre-drilled first of course.


DoctorBill

If it is slightly dull, it could make a rough cut that you would need to lap.
That could cause an over size cavity.

How much mold material do you have to experiment with?
I sometimes can get round stock that is too short for his saw from a machinest friend for scrap price.
Anything under about six inches he recycles or gives away.

[nanuk]

I've seen boolits that were not real smooth, and probably work well for PP

but the issue might be having them fall out of the mould, if the roughness was deep enough to lock them in...

I need to try this! I have sized rod before, and polished to mirror smooth finish, but have never filed to a cutting edge.

[DoctorBill]

While Gary (the machinist) was boring out the Magnesium Rod with the
newly made D-Bit of my previous post, he offhand made a suggestion that
I found fascinating.

Why not make a PP Bullet mold body with a 1 inch bored out center hole and then
make mold "Cores" in 1 inch rod that can slip into the larger mold body ?

That way, one mold BLOCK could hold many different Mold Cores.

The Sprue Cutter would be centered over each Mold Core and if machined
correctly, would fit exactly as to height and diameter.

Like a tool with replaceable bits - only the "Bits" would be the rod
shaped Mold Core. Hold the Cores in place with a set screw.

I like that idea ! Don't need umpteen handles and sprue cutters.

Made a crude drawing of the idea.....

http://www.mynetimages.com/fc8712c976.jpg

Gary doesn't go on forums and discuss what he is thinking of doing.
That way he makes the thing before someone can tell him it can't be done.

DoctorBill

[bigted]

Dr Bill...this is GREAT!!! i love it when a person takes the bull by the horn and makes his own stuff...or learns to do so....remember that when the soviets went into afganistan? they ran into folks like you that made their rifles with some steel and a few files...not even electric drills or grinders. you are in good company with your expeiments here and i want to thank you for the sharing with us.

i fondly remember when as a kid i was determined to make a m-1 carbine into a machine gun...with little more then a grinder and a handfull of files i manufactured some parts that made the 30 round mag full of those 30 CARBINE SHELLS SHUCK OUT LICKETY SPLIT! those parts and some super glue made this kid smile for an afternoon then it went to s#!t and the glued parts came apart but i did what i determined to do. and more to the point...what my dad said was impossible!

keep after it and i for one am watching your progress and will eventually attempt the same for myself. thanks for the enthusiasm and inspiration.

[DoctorBill]

http://www.mynetimages.com/61bbf5673e.jpg

I am lapping the Magnesium Core with the very bullet it produced using
FLITZ Metal Polish.

Quick 'Test Castings' to see the shape. Upper left one fell out....
1.1 inch long by 0.440 inch diameter.
Not made in a real, hot, good mold - just quick and dirty to see the shape.
Looks good for a possible 45-70 Paper Patched Bullet.

http://www.mynetimages.com/041539c059.jpg

I think I'll use this bit to make a mold....

DoctorBill

[bigted]

Bill... never heard about your first [ "ugly"] boolit shooting exersise. am interested in how it shot. seems like it should shoot fine but never heard if you shot it or not.

this latest boolit is looking good and i would think you can make it shoot as well.

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=DoctorBill;

I am lapping the Magnesium Core with the very bullet it produced using
FLITZ Metal Polish.

Once done, I'll pour another bullet and show y'all....

DoctorBill[/QUOTE]

The Flits will take forever and a couple extra.
Valve grinding compound.

[DoctorBill]

Bigted - The weather here in Spokane has been too rotton for an old 69 year old
fart like me to shoot so far.
I am a confessed 'woosie' and a 'fair weather shooter' !

We appear to be in a 'Year without a Winter' here in Spokane, WA.
Soon...I hope. All loaded and ready !

Longwood - I have various polishing compounds. I can try others, too.

Gary wants me to try making a 'fall out' mold on my drill press.
Scares me. Don't know if I should do a 1/8" pass-thru hole (like previous),
or just a pre-drill out to the bullet depth only.

Imagining chips grinding into the mold sides since I'd be working in a downward
fashion with a Drill Press.
Gary cut the previous one on a 4-jaw chucked Lathe so the chips fell
out while cutting.

How do I sharpen this D-Bit w/o losing the positive rake ?
I have a stone...
http://www.mynetimages.com/66a3730037.jpg

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=DoctorBill;

How do I sharpen this D-Bit w/o losing the positive rake ?
I have a stone...


DoctorBill[/QUOTE]

You can't hone the outside now. That is why we said to polish the tool before cutting or grinding it.
Hone the flat now. That will sharpen it pretty well.
You are doing good, keep up the good work.
I think Gary is enjoying teaching you. How old is he?
PS
Be careful if you try valve grinding compoun, it will make the cavity too large in a hurry.

I am beginning to wonder if we are going to have a winter also.
We are still wearing our shorts and flip flops.
I finally see a little snow on the mountains west of me this morning but it will be long gone by this weekend when it is supposed to warm up again.

[Longwood]

Bill
Something to keep in mind.
The black powder guys make their bullets small from pure lead.
I start small so I can still use the mold for hard bullets with smokless powder if it gets to be oversized.

[DoctorBill]

Longwood - I know enough to only hone the flat - how w/o honing down the positive rake ?

"The black powder guys make their bullets small..." That's me !
Paper Patch to the bore - lead never touches the rifling.

"The Flits will take forever and a couple extra." FLITZ wails fast on Aluminum !

Southern California ! Used to live in Orange County.
Did my Master's in San Diego.
Then went to Sacramento for my PhD.

Used to be a nice place until Nancy Pelosi was elected. Now ?

Ooooo, those terrible people who shoot things !
Make them eat vegetables. Too many hormones....

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=DoctorBill;1590082]Longwood - I know enough to only hone the flat - how w/o honing down the positive rake ?

You won't take off enough to worry about.
If gary ground it on his tool grinder it is probably sharp enough but a little honeing of the flat will sure not hurt. I would also hit the edge a tiny bit to make sure there are no burrs.

I lived in some of the nicest areas of Orange County for close to 20 years. Down at the beach were I could see blue sky if I looked in the right direction.
Good place to make lots of money.
Good place to meet pretty women.
Good place to spend every cent you have trying to survive.
Good place to be a long way FROM!-

PS
My next atempt at a mold is going to be a two piece from brass for a collar button bullet.

Nancy Pelosi says she has never riden a motorcycle and she does not see why others would want to or should be able to.
I feel sorry for people like her.

[DoctorBill]

Good place to make lots of money. - I should have stayed there!
Good place to meet pretty women. - Oh yes....yes, yes, yes....hmmmm.
But I met several in Spokane, too....they are everywhere ! Very expensive, tho !
Good place to be a long way FROM ! - Driving LA Freeways will make you insane.
But then Seattle Freeways are just as bad.
Pelosi must have driven them a lot.

I just checked my little bench top Drill Press and I do not have sufficient
'Throw" in the chuck to change drills and the D-Bit w/o having to move
the Aluminum Block. I do not want to have to re-center this thing - ever !

Looks like I'll have to ask Gary to bore it out on his lathe again.
Gary can decide if the D-Bit needs honing - or not.

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

Bill
Which drawing program do you use?
Is it hard to learn?
I tried one but went back to paper an pencil.

[DoctorBill]

I used PhotoShop LE which is a real bugger to try drawing with.

That's why the drawing was simple minded...

Making circles is well nigh to impossible.

Many such things on Freeware.com Try some.
http://www.bestfreewaredownload.com/categories/download-graphic-apps-freeware-8-0-d.html

Got to go work now and make some money to buy tools....

DoctorBill

[scrapcan]

Bill,

Set yourself up a jig to locate your work piece. it doe snot have to be elaborate, just needs to get you back in place. You can use hardwood, angle iron, etc. push the thing back in place clamp somehow and move again if need be and repeat. also you can use your reamer to help center after you drill, just be sure to turn in the direction of cut and not backwards.

Gorilla machining requires some outside the box thinking, you have all the talent to do that so don't take no for an answer.

[KTN]

SHOW US YOUR TOOL - GUYS ! PUT PHOTOS UP HERE.

DoctorBill

This is what I did.
0.1" thick HSS papercutter blade cut to shape. Works fine on aluminium, with bigger calibers.

Reamer and mold cut with it.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_0862.jpg

Reamer from other side.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_0867.jpg

Quite easy to make with lathe and benchgrinder and doesn't need heat treating.


Kaj

[DoctorBill]

Longwood - I remembered that I had sent Gary a couple of Freeware CADD program
links a couple of months ago.
Don't think he tried any...hates to learn new software - like me.

Have a look at these:

http://www.bestfreewaredownload.com/categories/download-graphic-apps-freeware-8-0-d.html

http://www.techsupportalert.com/best-free-cad-program.htm#Google-Sketchup

http://www.vectorengineer.com/ look at the Free CADD Software portion.

http://freeware.intrastar.net/cadsoftware.htm

http://www.serif.com/free-graphic-design-software/?MC=SERPPCFDDP

I must admit that I have not tried any of them.

I have this thing with CADD.
Bought "Generic CADD" once, learned it well, got good with it after a couple of years,
then Windows changed to a higher level and the company went T.U. and I
couldn't run it nor upgrade it.

Got pissed and never got another !

Not easy to pick up CADD - I mean to learn it....takes a lot of effort.

I hope YOU can use one of those above !

BTW - there are even MORE drawing programs in Freeware.
Drawing - not CADD (which is a different beast).
http://mashable.com/2007/10/27/graphics-toolbox/ 35 different free programs.

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

I'm sending an email to Red River Rick!!

To hell with this!!:groner::takinWiz::dung_hits_fan:

[DoctorBill]

Mulhern - "Deliver me O Sweet Jesus!!

I'm sending an email to Red River Rick!! To hell with this!!"

Do you mind informing us what in the world are you are talking about ? !

DoctorBill

[scrapcan]

Red River Rick, makes bullet moulds, mould hanldes, sprue plates, etc....

looked like a bit of humor to me.

[DoctorBill]

I can't tell what Mulhern's intent was....some reading this are in a different world.
A cryptic post....with unknown intent.

Cannot please everyone, nor do I care to.

I'm trying to share methods and information....some seem to get p****d at that.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is how I am solving the D-Bit and Drill alignment problem.

Got a $50 Harbor Freight Cross Vice. Tightened up the Gibs (had to go to
the Internet to figure out how) and am using a small drill to set up the
alignment. A cut off Ice Pick would do for that !

http://www.mynetimages.com/0bd32314a5.jpg

Now to figure out how to get past the worm gear backlash...

I think you read the wheel when going in one particular direction.

DoctorBill

[wonderwolf]

I think he meant to get RRR in on the conversation. I'm not sure how he cuts his cavities. I was planning on ordering a mold from RRR but since we finally replaced the motor on my lathe I'm going to try to make a few D bits and make my own PP molds but right now I'm working on D bits for swage dies. As far as oil hardening goes its a must as well as tempering or that 0-1 may shatter.

[nanuk]

DrB

I think it was Ross Seyfried who wrote an article about multiple inserts, using one main holder with the cutter on it.

the only issue I can see is getting the height correct so the sprue plate fits it well.

[RMulhern]

Mulhern - "Deliver me O Sweet Jesus!!

I'm sending an email to Red River Rick!! To hell with this!!"

Do you mind informing us what in the world are you are talking about ? !

DoctorBill

DoctorBill

Hey man...if you want to 'fiddle away your time' doing this.....knock your self out! But in the time and effort and $$$$$ involved FOR ME TO DO THIS.....well....I'm gonna just get RRR to make whatever I want....IF HE WILL.....and then I'll have cast up 5000 bullets (while you're still pharting around trying to build a mould) from a mould that I KNOW IS RIGHT!![smilie=w::popcorn::mrgreen:

[Don McDowell]

Rick you can also call Bernie at old west and for 95$ have the base pour mould of your dreams in about 2 weeks...125$ gets it turned over and into a nosepour adjustable...

[DoctorBill]

Mr Mulhern - you miss the WHOLE POINT !

"Deliver me O Sweet Jesus!!

Do you ever cook your own food ?
Change your own oil ?
Change your own spark plugs ?
Paint a room or your house ?
Raise your own kids....

Anybody can go buy something and then brag about how fine it is...
rich people are really good at that.

"...pharting around trying to build a mould" IS the whole point of this !

"pharting around" - AKA a hobby.

Lord !

[FrankG]

This is what I did.
0.1" thick HSS papercutter blade cut to shape. Works fine on aluminium, with bigger calibers.

Reamer and mold cut with it.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_0862.jpg

Reamer from other side.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o277/kainiin/IMG_0867.jpg

Quite easy to make with lathe and benchgrinder and doesn't need heat treating.


Kaj

How did this cutter mount in use ?

[FrankG]

HA!! Doctorbill , I can relate ! Makin tools and accessories is half the fun ! Takes me half a day to make a special size sizing die for size and lubing boolits ! Took most of a week to make a set of reloading dies and lube/size die for 43 Egyptian !

[Longwood]

"...pharting around trying to build a mould" IS the whole point of this ![/B]

"pharting around" - AKA a hobby.

Lord !

Eggszaagerly.
I have as much fun making something really nice or cheap or both, as I do shooting loads of ammo..
I even like making my own bullets and loading them and then shooting them so I can sart over.

I have made my own styles of pan lube cutters, my copy of a lead hardness tester, a card cutter for my drill press, an adapter so I could mount a better measure on my progressive press, an aluminum powder funnel for 45-70 and 45 Colt brass that does not tip over if I let go of it, aluminum drop tubes for my RCBS measures, several bullet molds, brass hammer, aluminum hammer, and a few other items I can't think of right now.
I have also honed a couple of dies to a needed size with my inexpensive lathe. What would that have cost me to have done?
99 percent of this list was made from scrap that I paid scrap price for or stock that was given to me by a machinest friend that has a Digital controlled machine shop.
where he makes thousands and thousands of parts a week. but still likes people like me that do for themselves.
I know this stuff will hardly pay for a lathe but some of the other stuff I have made already did.
For instance I made my own Video camera balancers that lets me make smooth, non jiggly video, while doing stuff like running or walking up and down stairs.

[Longwood]

How did this cutter mount in use ?

Remember the guy way back that made the funny looking tool with all of the grinding work
You could make one just like it from round stock.
You could also make one from your 'J' drill.
PS
I went to a frinds house and he told me was needing to sell a rifle.
He pulled out a 30-30 Winchester that looks brand new except for a teeny mark in the stock that I can fix in about ten minutes.
$350 with 4 boxes of factory loads.
He said he had looked up the number and it was made in 1971.
Did I do good, or bad at $350?

[longbow]

I'm with you DoctorBill!

I like to make or modify things myself, especially when they aren't readily available.

As a for instance, I was finding that my sloppy chamber Lee Enfields weren't shooting as accurately as I figured they should be and wasn't sure why. Then I thought about the boolit I was loading and the bulges in the case necks after seating and the light went on! I can be slow at times and maybe this should have been obvious but...

I have 3 Lee Enfields and all have bores of about 0.314" and throats of about 0.315". My RCBS die sizes to suit the supposed nominal .303 bullet of 0.311". Soooo, I am using a boolit of 0.315" diameter to size up a case neck of 0.310" diameter which is hard on a boolit ~ especially a boolit with narrow driving bands.


My first mod was to make an expander button of 0.314" to better suit the fat boolits. That worked but of course is still hard on brass so I bought a Lee Collet die set but still had to make a mandrel of 0.313" again to suit the fat boolits.

The result is a happier bunch of guns and shooter. If I had to pay for the stuff I did it would have cost bunches but since I use stuff I had (old car head bolts for expander button and mandrel) it only cost me time.

Same story for my push out boolit moulds. I first started making them because I wanted PP boolits which were not available for .44 at least commercially and there were not the custom vendors we have now.

Hah! There is a group buy on now for .30 cal PP boolit moulds that are remakes of old Lyman designs. I made a push out mould based on the same boolits using an "N" reamer about 20 years ago. I am sure the Mihec mould will be beautiful and far nicer than mine but I had mine 20 years ago and it works just fine.

It has all been fun, educational and for the most part successful as well.

Yes, I like making stuff too. I make my own bows and arrows, I tie flies, I work on my own vehicles, etc. There is a lot of satisfaction in doing it myself.

You are right on the money DoctorBill!

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Well, I screwed up my courage and started drilling !

I started with a 1/8" and went up in every other drill size.
Tried larger steps, but the drill bit chattered, so I go in small steps now.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9cefce2518.jpg

The Cross Vice doesn't quite get me back to where I was even if I approach
the setting from the same direction each time !

So I "adjust" in or out to lessen any chatter of the bit until it quiets down.
Is that the right approach ? Don't know why the cross vice does that !

I am up to 5/16ths going for 13/32nd's - then the 0.438 D-Bit.

Bought some Dust Remover (compressed gas) to blow out the chips.
Don't want the D-Bit scratching the walls...

Worried about the depth, tho....I don't want the drill end to invade the ogive
of my D-Bit end.

I mark the drill with a Fine Point Sharpie and go reeeeal sloooow....
Lot of ATF to lube the drill - what a difference with ATF !

I get very nervous and have to stop and relax....

I bet you old timer machinists are really yukking it up !

Gary is very aggressive with drilling and reaming and milling tools.

I get nervous watching him work - he wails into the metal !

Me....I'm careful as mice !

Anyways - I figure if I booger it up that Aluminum is cheap and I have
'all the time in the world."

Right !

DoctorBill

"Time is the fire in which we burn" - Soren (Star Trek "Generations")

[Longwood]

A good idea for the vise is a lock on each slide.
All it takes is a drilled and tapped hole with a bolt that you can tighten. A handle welded on the bolt is a plus.
Sort of like your gib adjustments but manual so you can securely lock a slide in one place for doing light milling with the the other.
Put them between the gib adjustment screws.
They are a big help for preventing chatter.

[RMulhern]

Mr Mulhern - you miss the WHOLE POINT !

"Deliver me O Sweet Jesus!!

Do you ever cook your own food ?
Change your own oil ?
Change your own spark plugs ?
Paint a room or your house ?
Raise your own kids....

Anybody can go buy something and then brag about how fine it is...
rich people are really good at that.

"...pharting around trying to build a mould" IS the whole point of this !

"pharting around" - AKA a hobby.

Lord !

Well....I've ALREADY DONE ALL THAT the past 60 years! My full-time HOBBY is shooting....rather a way of life more than a hobby so when I shoot these BPCR....I don't have time to phart around making something that I know can be made much better than I can do it by a pro! That's what RRR does.....making EXCELLENT MOULDS and not something that's probably gonna turn out looking like it was chopped out with a double-bit axe!! When you get pissed off at that morphodyke you're working on....order one from RRR!!:drinks::roll::mrgreen::castmine:

[FrankG]

That crossvise worm an nut may have enough slack to cause the chatter . Any way to clamp it with 'C' clamp to lock it tight when you final ream ? Slow speed slow feed with 'D' reamer , an back out and clean often .

[DoctorBill]

Slow speed...ya !

My drill press' slowest speed is 620 rpm !

Worried that that is too fast.

Interesting observation...when a couple of these drills were just a a mm under
the mark, I turned the chuck by hand and advanced the drill - by God it cut !

Now my 13/32nds drill is TOO LONG to get into the chuck and slide past the
Aluminum Block !

Tomorrow, I'll go out in the garage and cut off about a half inch off the shank
with my air cut off wheel (die cutter?).

Once drilled with the 13/32nds drill, the 0.438" D-Bit will have 0.002 inch
to cut out of the sides.

I hope it can cut the residual Aluminum in the Ogive portion that the drills missed.

Has anyone ever made a drill bit shaped bullet ?

Just drill a final hole with a drill bit and pour a bullet with that !
Hmmmm.

Can you buy an extra drill bit and grind an Ogive in the end and finish
with the ground off drill bit ?

"I'll be baaaack".....morgen früh..

Mr. Mulhern...."that morphodyke" I am working on....it is mine.
I will have made it with my own two hands.

Enjoy your money. I'm enjoying my hobby.

BTW - why are you even reading this thread, anyway ?
It just seems to aggravate you.

Just thought of something.....lets trade 10 of your super-dooper-pooper-scooper
bullets for ten of my "morphodyke monkey droppings" and we can compare how they
shoot at the range. Are you up for it ?

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

DoctorBill

I've been testing your patience!! So far....you haven't called me an AH or a SOB.....publicly at any rate....so maybe you've got enough patience to eventually make a good mould! Besides it's wet/raining, can't use the range, I've cast so many bullets my back is hurting and besides....us Ole Geezers have to have something to do on these days!! Harassing you has been fun! Hang in there brother! You'll eventually make something you can hit the barn door with!![smilie=w::popcorn::coffee::castmine:

[Longwood]

Doc
Can we call you Doc?
Let me get this straight.
Maybe I missed something.
You have an air powered die grinder but you are using bottled air?
:veryconfu

A drill bit shaped bullet is called a Wad cutter.:smile:

[Longwood]

I would not run he reamer at your slowest speed. I would turn the chuck by hand which mean I would be all cross handed working the lever with my left hand and rotating the chuck and doing chip removal with my right.
I have a small screwdriver I cut most of the shank off of then ground to a tight fit so I can use the chuck key holes for turning the chuck..

[DoctorBill]

I have an air compressor (Sears ?) out in the garage that I use for odd stuff
mostly for changing tires and keeping them full.

My work bench is downstairs in the 'basement' of a bi-level.

No air piped into the basement. This is the first occasion I have needed
compressed air at my basement workbench.

Why am I explaining this ?

Anyway - odds and ends -

So I shouldn't run the D-Bit at 620 rpm ? ! What speed is good ?

Bore it by hand...now that is quite primitive....so it ought to work !

Longwood - can you get someone to take a picture of you boring a mold
by hand turning the chuck with a ground down screwdriver ?
THAT would make a nice picture addition to this Forum !

I know what a wad cutter is - but not drill bit tip shaped one, though.

I get the impression that ANYTHING cylindrical shaped works as a bullet,
if it is big and massive - like 500 grains of lead...

Can a bullet be made to whistle as it flies to the target ?
Wouldn't that discombobilate people at the range !

Gary told me I need 'stub' drills, but a set of those is pricy.

Mr. Mulhern....do you often try to provoke folks ? You've done it to me before
on other threads and other forums....

Nice hobby. Dangerous if done with the wrong people....

Not me though. I am the nicest person I know. Just the sweetest fellow
anyone could meet. Everybody loves me. Mr. Nice guy.....the patience of Job.

I have to be patient. Ever try teaching Chemistry to a female English Major
who thinks Science is boring and only for nerds and has rings in her lip and nose
and God knows where else ?

I have wondered about you though - I originally wondered if you had been
drinking and were 'tight' and wrote things you wouldn't normally write while
under the influence. But no - I can see that you are just a mean old man.

I am old and tired. Going to catch some "zzzz's" - Bed time for old Bonzo.

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I am with Longwood (intimidating name that by the way!)on the slow turning thing.

I bore and "ream" my moulds in a lathe and use the lowest speed with D bits getting reasonable results but they tend to cut oversize due to the high rate of rotation. Due to the rigidity of the lathe I get away with it by making the D bits slightly undersize.

If you rough out to within a few thou of final size with drill bits then hand turn and feed the D bit in it will act like a reamer and shave of the remaining material away leaving a very smooth finish.

Just like a multi fluted reamer, they are fed in relatively fast for the number of revs to get best results.

Since you are limited by drill bits and stepped sizes, you might look at buying a couple of number or letter drills that get you closer to the final diameter you want then hand feed the D bit after.

Also, you should try WD40 as a cutting lubricant for both drilling and reaming. That should leave a good surface finish.

Longbow

[Longwood]

DoctorBill:

I am with Longwood (intimidating name that by the way!)

Longbow

It is my name from my days as a Porn Star.
I wish!
It is because of my fondness for rifles, modern and antique, with ful length stocks.
I have owned a few of the European makes and have kicked myself soooo many times for selling them.
One of my dreams is to someday build a nice Pennsylvania long rifle with one of those hand filed trumpet shaped barrels.

[DoctorBill]

My friend Gary says to use kerosene !

I have Mineral spirits (deodorized Kerosene) and might mix up some of that
with ATF.

I like the way ATF has been working - the lubrication effect is amazing !

LongBow, Longwood, BigRichard - Ha !
Just gets in the way. Been having that problem all my life !
Scares 'em away ! Atlantic Cable.

I will try hand turning the drill press chuck.
I told Gary - I know he will tell me to let him do it on his Lathe....

Every time I turn around, I need another expensive tool.
Short drills, numbered drills, clamps, yada yada yada.....

If this experiment works well, I won't really need any more molds !
I love this bullet shape - looks like the old Martini-Henry bullet.
Second & third cartridges.
http://www.mynetimages.com/252b2fdeb0.jpg http://www.mynetimages.com/38b22d5fe5.jpg


Next thing to try are swaging dies ! Hydraulic pressure. Lead wire...
I bought a 1/2 ton Arbor Press - (why ? !)

There is no end to it....

Good night all !

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

Longwood - can you get someone to take a picture of you boring a mold
by hand turning the chuck with a ground down screwdriver ?
THAT would make a nice picture addition to this Forum !


DoctorBill

I doubt I still have one. I sometimes use a drill or piece of drill rod that will fit the three holes.
A big spike nail stuck into a piece of dowel from Home Depot may be about the right size. It would be less likely to screw up the holes in your chuck than a hardened rod.

When you get done with that mold, I need one made for my new toy.
Photo of toy included.:kidding:

[Longwood]

Longwood - can you get someone to take a picture of you boring a mold
by hand turning the chuck with a ground down screwdriver ?
THAT would make a nice picture addition to this Forum !


DoctorBill

My info is worthless and therefor free.
A picture would cost ya, big time!

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

What you seem to be making is the equivalent of a single flute reamer. Back in the 30's-50's era that is how gunsmiths made reamers for one-off chambering jobs. Properly sharpened, the 'smith would cut the chamber, then take a minimum sharpening cut and make the dies. Back then, they had more time than money and no Internet.

Rich

[Buckshot]

...............DoctorBill, Your compound vise could have excessive end play in one, two, or BOTH places. The first place would be at the end/thrust plates the screw goes though, and the shoulder of the crank pushes against. That is very common as on the less expensive vises. The plate will be a stamping, and less then ideally flat, so they fit the crank handle to the screw with excessive 'room'. This can be addressed to a degree via brass washers between the plate and the crank handle.

The second place will be in the ACME nuts used (I'm assumeing the X and Y axis screws are ACME threaded). You may or may not be able to address this play simply, depending upon the physical size of the nuts. That is, if there is enough meat around the threads. Most commonly the nut is shaped like a loaf of bread. A flat on one side which is generally against the underside of the X and Y axis slides, and retained in place via a screw to their respective slides. The rounded portion will be facing down.

If the nut has in this rounded portion enough thickness to it, beyond the depth of the threads, to handle a hole D&T'd for a #6 or #8 screw PARALLEL to the screw thread, you'll be in like Flynt. Make a hacksaw cut about 3 threads in from one end, and deep enough to cut INTO but not through the flat side of the nut. Now drill a hole (the correct OD for taping) from the END of the nut closet to the hacksaw cut, and THROUGH the cut extending a 1/4" beyond it. Now use the correct bit of the RELIEF size and drill just deep enough to clear the hacksaw cut.

Finally tap the base of the hole. You'll need a bottom tap to finish. Now use a sockethead capscrew of a length that when it has engaged a couple threads will have about 1/8" under it's head, and the face of the ACME nut. What will be happening is as you tighten the sockethead screw is it will draw in the acme threads of the nut across the hacksawed slot toward those on the other side. You'll be pinching the threads together to remove the slop in that area. Be sure that the ACME threaded screws see some lubrication from time to time.

..................Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

I trimmed off my 13/32nd inch Drill Bit and drilled out the final prep hole.

Honed the flat of my D-Bit with an Arkansas stone (sharpened immediately)
and started to "Hand Turn" the chuck.

Expected resistance, but the Aluminum cuts like a knife thru warm butter !

http://www.mynetimages.com/af4ead3860.jpg

The Chips are nice and large, thin and smooooooth.
Getting harder to hand turn as I go in....

http://www.mynetimages.com/038f90dd90.jpg

Are these chips nice or what ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/a88f5ecc39.jpg

DoctorBill

[Dark Helmet]

Go Doc, Go! :happy dance:

[Longwood]

:popcorn:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/introducing-the-2-inch-muzzle-loading-desk-cannon-see-it-in-action/

This could be made with a drill press.[smilie=w:

[DoctorBill]

Quick Test Pours.....ring still left in tip - need to bore a bit further.

http://www.mynetimages.com/3b3132c59b.jpg

Gotta go to work....bye

Doctor Bill

[FrankG]

Excellent ! You have it on the run now !!:grin:

[Longwood]

Looking mighty good!
Very smooth.
What diameter did they cast at?
What alloy did you use, or was it pure lead?
What was the finished diameter/s you ground the reamer to?
The last one I made is too small and I am about to make two new reamers.
I want a mold for black powder pure lead bullets and another one for larger diameter harder bullets for smokeless.
I am going to have to do some research here to brush up on how different alloys cast different diameter bullets before I proceed.

I just bought another 45-70 which, with my luck, will slug differently, so I have plenty to do for a while.

[uscra112]

Bigted

How do I sharpen this D-Bit w/o losing the positive rake ?
I have a stone...
DoctorBill

Just grind the flat a little more, keeping it parallel to the diameter. The rake will get more positive as you go. It's only when you haven't ground enough that you have negative rake.

Above diameter - negative rake
On the diameter - zero rake
Below diameter - positive rake.

[Longwood]

Just grind the flat a little more, keeping it parallel to the diameter. The rake will get more positive as you go. It's only when you haven't ground enough that you have negative rake.

Above diameter - negative rake
On the diameter - zero rake
Below diameter - positive rake.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Won't grinding past center cause it to ream too small?
I used a small diameter cutoff wheel in my Dremel to grind a bit of a radius in one of mine so I would have a positve rake and maintain my tool diameter.
Is that step a waste of time?

[uscra112]

It will not cut smaller unless you've ground a relief angle behind the cutting edge, which would have been a good idea if cutting steel or at high speed. Even so, since you usually will only hone it down a thou or two the sharpen, it won't change the diameter by enough to worry about.

Without a relief angle, the metal of the cutter drags on the just-cut surface. At any kind of speed, the friction heats up the tool something fierce. Cutting by hand or in a lathe at very slow speed (like 100 RPM or so) it's not much of an issue.

Old-time toolmakers would sometimes grind a groove like you describe to get an extreme positive rake. Certain materials need it. For example, I make my own cleaning jags from Delrin rod, and that material needs a lot of rake - like 5 degrees or more. So does titanium. Gummy aluminum alloys do better with a lot of rake, (why anybody would be machining 3000 series aluminum is left as an exercise for the psych majors!) Hard aluminum - 6061, 7075 and 2024 alloys - are happy with 1 or 2 degrees. Also brass. Steels generally need very little rake, and I've worked a number of projects where three or four degrees of negative rake was used. Negative rake needs very strong, rigid machine tools and a lot more horsepower, but it makes for a much stronger, longer lasting cutting edge, which is very important when roughing the "bark" off steel bars or forgings.

I wouldn't go to the trouble on your D-reamers, however. I doubt it's doing you enough good to justify the effort. As you see, Doc's reamer cut great at zero rake.

[DoctorBill]

I talked to Gary (my machinist Guru friend) and asked it I should relieve
a bit off the round tip end of the D-Bit and he said that should work.

He said I can just hone the tip's flat side to sharpen it, also,

The round tip is not very good for taking off metal as a push drill.

I can try the honing and if that doesn't allow me to cut DEEPER then I will
relieve the rounded portion by half a Framistan (*).

I thought of something while driving to work - I do a lot of "thinking" while
driving to work.....

Am going to warm the Aluminum block and fill the cavity with HOT MELT GLUE,
insert a wood dowel, let it harden - then I will have a perfect semi-hard
"Plastic" bullet plug to use for lapping the cavity with FLITZ metal polish !

I can make as many as I need that way and the plastic, being softer than
the Aluminum, should hold the polish particles and hone the cavity with
some old "in and out" polishing while spinning it....

First BTW - the Wheel Weight Quick Cast slugs measure 0.438" - the exact
diameter of the D-Bit.

Second BTW - I am paper patching the bullets, so if they aren't exactly "ON",
the paper patch (Paper Sabot) will make up the difference.....

Third BTW - If you Paper Patch, who cares what the bullet is cast with - it never
touches the rifling....

Onward !

DoctorBill

*** - A framistan is a unit of measure somewhat equivalent to a _ _ _ _ hair's
width ( a term Gary uses a lot !).
The unit was coined many years ago in Framistan, a little known country
next to Bozostan, near Washington D.C.
It was populated with Elected Bozos who retired with the fortunes 'earned' by graft
and criminal activity - AKA Congressmen and Representatives
and retired Government Liars & Grafters.

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=DoctorBill;1593642]

Third BTW - If you Paper Patch, who cares what the bullet is cast with - it never
touches the rifling....

QUOTE]

The smokless people seem to like harder larger bullets.
The black powder people seem to like pure lead that is bore diameter that bumps up in size when fired.
Also, It appears different alloys cast at different sizes from the same molds.

it is still pretty confusing to me so that is why i said i need to go b ack and do some reading.

[DoctorBill]

Finished boring - looks good.

Drilled & Tapped for the Sprue Cutter (Ordered from LEE)
and the 3/8 - 16 NC bolt & Handle.

http://www.mynetimages.com/b63ec54d91.jpg

Whew !

Dark out and snowing here, so will heat 'er up and pour some bullets
tomorrow morning and report the results.

I could flip this mold over and bore another cavity on the opposite side
with sprue cutter also ! A flip mold, as it were - since the cavity was offset.

What a mess to clean up - Aluminum turnings showing up EVERYWHERE !
I think they are ALIVE !

DoctorBill

LEE sells SC or DC Sprue Cutters plus screw, bushing and flex washer for $3 total.
You can buy mold blanks also.
Aluminu from the recycling yards is dirt cheap. Just hard to saw into pieces.

[Longwood]

Lookin good!

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

Looks like you have a terrific success there! Good going!

Yeah, kerosene and/or ATF work too. I just find that WD40 does a good job and I have a gallon so I use it. I know a couple of good machinists that swear with light finishing cuts on lathe or milling machine that WD40 does an excellent job (maybe depends on material some too).

You have probably thought of this but if you decide to do the hot melt glue thing, use some oil or light film of grease inside the cavity. I use hot melt glue for attached wad shotgun slug "skirts" cast on in aluminum, steel or plastic forms and use a light film of grease. Works pretty good.

By the way, where are you in Washington? I live about 3 hours North of Spokane just across the border.

I hope you post results after casting and shooting. I bet you have a winner there!

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

ATF, WD40, Kerosene, Motor Oil....whatever you have on hand ...

For light work like I'm doing - probably anything.

Heavy industrial...different beast probably.

I have some Silicone Oils (mold release agents) that I could use.
Hot Melt Glue is just about the stickiest stuff I have ever run across.
Nasty if you get the hot glue on you, too !

I wonder - does it shrink on cooling ? If not.......arrgg !

I live about 20 miles south of Spokane in a small, hick country town in
the middle of the wheat country. Good place to raise kids away from the city.

Out here you can see it coming. In the city you can get sneaked up on, there
are so many around you.

I REALLY want to shoot these various reloads - compare how they shoot in
my 45-70 Springfield 1873 Trapdoor.

The weather has gone bad - typical end of Feb beginning of March weather.

Soon.....

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

DoctorBill

Hey man...if you want to 'fiddle away your time' doing this.....knock your self out! But in the time and effort and $$$$$ involved FOR ME TO DO THIS.....well....I'm gonna just get RRR to make whatever I want....IF HE WILL.....and then I'll have cast up 5000 bullets (while you're still pharting around trying to build a mould) from a mould that I KNOW IS RIGHT!![smilie=w::popcorn::mrgreen:

so why would you "Bother" casting boolits when you could just buy them, no muss no fuss....

after all, that dang casting is just a waste of your valuable shootin' time, and the professional casters can make as good or better boolit than you can, No??

[DoctorBill]

nanuck - why bother answering him ? He's over there going,
"Na naa na naaaa na na naaaaa!" and making faces at us - remember grade school ?

Maybe he could pay ( $$$$$$ ) someone else to shoot his rifle too ! - - - - "JAFO"

I just did a quick casting of several bullets to see what I'll get.

This mold need some lapping, so I cast a bullet with a rod handle to spin and
run in and out with some metal polish.

They fall out all by themselves !

http://www.mynetimages.com/3d8a66eb19.jpg

Nice size for my 45-70, although I wanted them about 2mm longer...

Got to grade Chem Labs now - so more later today - maybe.

Life has me by the short & curlies and I have to do other things besides
messing about with bullets right now. Darn !

Edited in later - Heck with the Labs....I lapped the mold for a while and popped
out some more bullets real quick. I use the bullet itself as a lapping tool.

http://www.mynetimages.com/bf94ea750c.jpg

BTW - How about some methods you folks use to "Lap the Mold" ?
How do you do it ? Pictures would be nice....

DoctorBill

[drhall762]

I think this is great. You made what you wanted. Way to go! Screw the detractors.

[montana_charlie]

Doc,
You seem to be getting close to what you started out to achieve. You can feel good about that.
But, you will eventually want to work on some venting for your sprue plate.

Maybe just loosening the pivot screw will do it, if you don't bear down super hard with the ladle when filling the cavity.

But the way it is now, you aren't getting a good sharp base corner on your bullets. So, when you use them to lap the cavity, you may not be lapping the top edge as much as the main body.

CM

[DoctorBill]

True about the back edge - but I had only made less than ten casts and the mold
was not good and hot yet.

I was making "Proof" casts to see what I'd get - and - to make some bullets
that I could use to lap the mold.

I wanted longer bullets and I can continue boring the mold, but from what
I have seen, 45-70's need all the room they can get for the Black Powder.

A 362 grain bullet will punch holes just as well as a 450 or 500 grain bullet.
maybe even bring down a deer or coyote or wolf (heavens to Mergatroid !).

More lapping and tomorrow (Saturday is MY day!) I will lay it on and heat the mold
and see what I get.

BTW - is a rounded off rear edge so bad - especially with Paper Patched Bullets ?
It's just a roundy off truncated Boat Tail - maybe a 'tug boat tail'.....

I am not a perfectionist.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9649e7f529.jpg

It would be interesting to fire from a bench vice all these variations on a theme
and see WHAT really makes a difference to accuracy !

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I use valve grinding compound to lap.

I just cast, drill a hole for a wood screw, cut the head off and lap slowly with a drill to remove a lot or cast through a nut and turn with a wrench by hand to final fine lapping.

A good description here:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/MoldLapping1.pdf

Longbow

[montana_charlie]

BTW - is a rounded off rear edge so bad - especially with Paper Patched Bullets ?
I'm going to declare that it IS a bad thing.
But, I have this feeling that you are going to go out and make up your own mind about it.

... And, that's as it should be ...

CM

[Longwood]

The back side of a knife point, a straight edge and a small 'C' clamp is how i will vent the sprue plate.

I may also try a pull type plexiglass scriber.

[longbow]

I find that if I set my sprue plate screw just snug enough that the sprue plate doesn't swing on its own that works for me. I can cast and get nice sharp bases.

A slightly "textured" bottom surface will vent a little as well.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Molded these in the dark at 30 degrees on my back deck with a
goose neck lamp to see what I was doing - listening to the coyotes
yipping off in the dark distance.

http://www.mynetimages.com/2b090cb66e.jpg

I am happy with these bullets.

An odd thing happened.
Made two bullets with a cool mold - fell out but looked like hell.
Had the LEE small melt pot at 5 heat setting.
Heated the mold with a propane torch - takes forever to get hot.
The bullet wouldn't solidify - stayed molten the longest time (a minute)..
After it hardened - would not come out !
Heated and melted it and inserted a screw and let it solidify.
Would NOT come out. Could not pull it out with pliers !

Remelted it and poured the metal out - cooled off the mold and had to
gently scrape some metal out.
Had stuck to the Aluminum !

Wiped the cavity out clean and candled it.
Lowered the pot temp to a setting of 2.5.

Cast what you see above. The mold is so tight that it takes time and tapping to
allow the air to go past the bullet and let it out (vacuum).

I have a championship 1,000 meter BP shooter friend who casts just above the
melting point of lead.
Interesting....

I am satisfied with this mold. Will cast for effect tomorrow, Paper Patch
and load some up for when it stops raining !

So...you fellows who have wanted to make a mold. You can do it, so, do it, do it, do it !

If I can do it, Elmer Fudd can do it.

THEN - go out and BUY a $140 mold from whoever, cause now you can say you did one !

Or not....

DoctorBill

PS - Montana Charlie - I am not going to lose any sleep over the back end of the bullet
not being sharp. I feel lucky to get the bullet on the target at 100 meters !

Could what is on the back side of the Sprue Plate cause this ? Mine is black. Should I polish it ?

Longwood - I don't follow you. Scribe what ? Picture of what you are doing ?

[Longwood]

Longwood[/B] - I don't follow you. Scribe what ? Picture of what you are doing ?

I plan on making sort of a star patern of litely scribed lines radiating from the hole to let the air under the sprue plate escape so the bases fill entirely.
With the first mold i made, I found that holding the mold as far below the spout on my Lee bottom pour, the better the mold seemed to fill even without dealing with trapped air escape routes .

[Longwood]

Lonbow and myself have suggested you use valve grinding (laping) compound.
It will remove metal much faster than a micro grit polish.
If there is a tiny scratch, ALL of the metal around it must be removed to the depth of the scratch in order to make it disappear.
Polish is made for shining up stuff that is already perfectly smooth.

[Longwood]

Hey Doctor bill, you will be able to "Make you own" powder compression die.

[wonderwolf]

Looking good!

There is def something to be said about exploring how things are built and why they are built that way. I applaud you for sticking to your guns, All the mold makers had to start somewhere and if you get your skills up you'll be right up there with them and you'll have a better understanding of what it takes! Its the same thing as to why some guys still build their own arrows and bows for archery...some even go so far as taking up flint knapping...I have. God gave me these two hands and a brain and the thirst for knowledge and patience to learn.

[DoctorBill]

Longwood - I bought a brass powder compression rod from Pat Wolf for a
few $'s along with a steel case spreader quite a while back.
They fit in the LEE 45-70 Reloading Die Set.

http://www.4570products.info/1-brass-compression-plug-and-1-steel-expander-plug-4.htm

visit this web site !
http://www.4570products.info/

Spencer Wolf wrote the book, " LOADING CARTRIDGES FOR THE ORIGINAL
45-70 SPRINGFIELD RIFLE AND CARBINE."
It is in it's third Edition now.

Getting ready to go out back on my deck and pour maybe fifty of my bullets.
Then I have to Paper Patch a bunch before loading up some 45-70's.

DoctorBill

PS - I will buy a tube of Valve Lapping Compound from O'Reilly's when I get back to town.

[uscra112]

Auto parts store valve grinding compound is probably too coarse. It is typically 180 or 240 grit.

A better source would be www.mcmaster.com Search for lapping compounds

Buy the smallest jar of 400 grit, and another of 600 grit. These are much coarser than Flitz, but not so coarse as to leave visible scratches in your finish, which the valve lapping compound will do. I also have one of 800. After that I go to Simichrome or Flitz. (I've polished acres of aluminum in my time, restoring Bultacos.)

One jar of each will be a lifetime supply. These are also just right for firelapping barrels, if you ever come to do that. . . .

McMaster-Carr will take your credit card, they have no minimum purchase, and they typically ship the same day. Their catalog is huge - if they don't have it, you don't need it. With McMaster and Manhattan Supply, I have 98% of my shop needs covered. Shipping costs are minimal, especially compared to the gas to go buy things like this over the counter.

Like the idea of using hot glue to make the lap. The material of the lap must be softer than the workpiece, and while lead fits the bill, the hot glue should be a lot easier to work with.

[Longwood]

Laping compound can be uised for many thing in what we do.
Brownells and some of the other places sell laping compound also.
I especially like McMaster Carr is because Iget my order the next day.

[Longwood]

Since I am making a pure lead black powder mold just for me and my rifle, I decided in order to keep it simple stupid, instead of trying to find some exotic nocanfindem paper, I would make my mold fit a paper that is readily available everywhere.
My homemade molds were casting a tiny bit small for printer paper from walmart so I honed them this morning until my pure lead black powder bullets wrap too .450 which is my bore diameter in my Sharps.
The paper is sooo much easier to wrap than the traceing paper I use for a different bullet.

[DoctorBill]

Things are going South on me.....Can I have the wrong ALUMINUM ALLOY ?

First - this mold drops beautiful bullets just great..and then Wham !

The Bullets won't come out - PERIOD !

So I have to dip the mold into the pot and get it hot enough to melt the Bullet.

I pour it out and there is some lead stuck on the inside of the cavity....
I run the propane torch flame into the mold and tap the mold on the bench
to get the remaining Wheel Weight Alloy out.
But some remains !

I cool the mold down and find some metal is STUCK to the cavity like
solder adheres to steel or iron.

Had to stop three times and scrape the WW Alloy off the cavity with the
original boring D-Bit tool !

Re-polish the cavity sides with Flitz and candle it and the bullets fall out like
coins from your pocket.

Then after 5-10 bullets, back with the SAME PROBLEM !

If I candle the mold after 5 bullets, it soon sticks again....

I think I will either have to toss this mold or drill a hole for a PIN to eject
the bullet....If this Aluminum is bad for molds, I'll toss it.

Gary (my machinist friend & guru) told me there is an Aluminum-Lead
alloy which machines really nicely.
Maybe I got that and Wheel Weight Alloy bonds to it.....Damn !

"Lead. Normally present only as a trace element in commercial-purity aluminum,
lead is added at about the 0.5% level with the same amount as bismuth in some
alloys (2011 and 6262) to improve machinability."
http://www.keytometals.com/Article55.htm
I wonder if I got ahold of some of this at the metal recycling place in Spokane (Du-Mor).

http://www.mynetimages.com/62e3a95b9d.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/ce5d70269d.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/295269af8f.jpg
The bullet diameter is slowly growing with all the lapping I'm doing !

DoctorBill

BTW - I made a lapping stick out of a popcicle stick with a 9x11 mm piece of
leather glued to the end (Gorilla Glue).

It conforms to the cavity shape, is soft, and the popcicle stick is easy to
hold and move around. Flitz Polish on the leather.
Works really well.....very controllable.
http://www.mynetimages.com/1f7fd0beca.jpg

[FrankG]

I had problems with a Lee.36 RB mold and ended up using Birchwood aluminum black IN the cavity ! Hit it light with 0000 steel wool and it cast like a champ ! Before it just wouldnt turn loose !

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

Not positive but I doubt the lead would stick to the aluminum alloy due to a minor lead content if that is the aluminum you have.

I always lap a slight taper in my pushout moulds ~ I am talking 0.0005" end to end to aid in release and ejection. If the not quite fully hard lead smears at all when you go to eject that may be the issue. Any roughness at all in the cavity will make that worse.

Most of my pushout moulds are mild steel but I often use brass nose forms and have made moulds from bronze as well. The only time I get lead sticking to the mould from tinning is if I run way too hot. I do occasionally get smearing and jam up if I eject when the alloy is still soft ~ it smears then there can be trouble.

If I don't have tinning problems to steel, brass or bronze then I find it hard to believe that you are getting lead to tin to aluminum.

I would add the ejector pin and make sure the alloy is not still soft when you eject.

My suspicion is that there is a slight groove or rough spot in the cavity that is making that part of the boolit slightly larger than the rest of the cavity. 0.0005" to 0.001" is all it would take.

Take a close look with a light and magnifying glass ~ if you can see shiny with slightly dark rings then the cavity is wavy. A jammed chip can do that when cutting. Lapping a little more will take it out if there are any slight grooves.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Interesting things.....

I cleaned out the cavity with soap and a Q-Tip, lapped it further with my
leather on a popsicle stick and looked inside with a Jeweler's Loupe.

I can see small areas that look CORRODED ! Maybe 1 mm x 1 mm blobs.
Almost like it was hit with acid or some salt - like on a car's finish.
Completely unrelated to the tool used to cut it.
A pattern like a blob of something spilled on a floor - shapeless.
It is dark colored - like a "rust" spot.

I have never let this set wet or used anything in it that would corrode it.

How strange. I now wonder about the Aluminum Metal I bought.

Whatever....I'll keep using it until I cannot use it.
I don't shoot that much right now - so 60 bullets all totaled will go for
quite a while.

I'm wondering if my D-Bit would handle steel....

DoctorBill

[uscra112]

Lead is alloyed into some steels to improve machineability.

Never heard of it being added to aluminum. Some aluminums have copper in them. I'd have to look it up, but I think the 20 series. It might be that you got a piece of 2024 alloy, which is wonderful stuff to machine, but it's about 5% copper.

Better would be 6061, which also machines well but has only .4% copper (max.). It's also the most used wrought aluminum alloy, so it's easy to get.

7075 is about 1.5% copper and 5% zinc. Very strong, used a lot for airframe parts.

Wonder if a coating of Kroil will help you. Seems to do for ferrous moulds, although I've never tried it.

Yes, your D-but will handle steel if it's hard enough. (The bit, not the steel.)

[DoctorBill]

uscra112 - (What does that stand for ?) I put some Sili-Kroil in the cavity after I
lapped it and cleaned it up.
Bought a couple of spray cans of Sili-Kroil several years ago - amazing stuff !

I'll see tomorrow what happens with it.

I cannot imagine what those corrosion spots are all about !

Maybe I should look up anodizing -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/anodize.shtml

NOW - I have to start Paper Patching again....that is not easy to do if you
don't do it often. Seems simple. It isn't. All in the fingers - mine are like sausages.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

I don't know if the circled 'imperfections' are bumps or dents in the bullet surface, but I think they are sufficient to lock it in the mould ... especially the lower bullet.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/295269af8f_md.jpg

CM

[Longwood]

How come your pitures do not get bigger when i click on it/

[DoctorBill]

All of those just 'fell out' but as I cast more, the bullets came out with more
Mold Tapping until finally no go.

This did not happen with my previous "Ejector Mold" made with a chunk
of Aluminum that my friend Gary picked up off his floor (he has every shape
and Alloy of metal sitting around his shop).

I really wonder if I bought some weird Aluminum Alloy that fell off of an Alien
spacecraft and some homeless person picked up to make money from.

Never had Aluminum act this way - I have many LEE molds that work
well and don't do this business !

Any metallurgists out there who want a sample to analyze ?

DoctorBill

[longbow]

I must have missed your description of lapping earlier. My suggestion is to use a boolit cast in the mould to lap with. That way the grit impregnates the boolit and cuts the mould surface. By pulling and pushing the boolit in and out while spinning you will level and smooth the surface of the cavity.

Also, by concentrating with the boolit pulled almost out of the cavity (in and out but a little longer out) you will put a very slight taper on the mould.

A soft lap like your leather can provide a very smooth surface but not necessarily level since the soft material will push into divots, rings or other defects and simply polish them without leveling the surface.

Any significant ring, divot or whatever in the mould surface can and will cause the boolit to jam if circumstances are right ~ like casting hot and getting perfect fillout. Not a problem with a split mould but certainly is when the boolit has to slide out.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

That's what I described earlier on - what I do normally.

The popsicle stick thing is for when I want to just polish the taper that I already have.

This problem is the WW metal sticking to the cavity sides - it sticks in spots !
Don't understand this.
The bullets readily fall out right after I clean and polish it - then the WW metal starts sticking.
Then they don't fall out....

That is why I candle the mold and why I am considering anodizing.
Sulphuric acid (Battery Acid) and 12 volts.

Or maybe the Birchwood-Casey Aluminum Black (a form of anodizing).

But I digress.

Maybe I should just admit that this particular mold is TU.
For whatever reason.

When I make a new one, I will not use this particular Aluminum and not make the
mistakes I already made.

However - this mold will still make me a few more bullets - if I phart around with it.

Carbon, maybe Kroil, maybe ????

I told the Doctor, "You know Doc, it hurts when I do this."
The Doctor said, "Then don't do that !"

Never give up ! Never surrender !

DoctorBill
.

[longbow]

Sorry DoctorBill I must have missed the lapping description earlier on and was too lazy to read all back through the thread.

It could be as simple as some porosity in the aluminum. Unlikely if it is rolled aluminum but very likely if it was cast.

Is the boolit small enough that you could try lapping another 0.001" to 0.002" out? If so, you might give that a try and check the "spots" where the boolits stick to see if they lap out. If not then it is deep porosity or some inclusion in the material.

Hmmm, you mention anodizing and aluminum black. That might work too. One fellow posted that he used a "paint" to reduce the nose diameter of a mould and it worked well. I don't recall details but I am pretty sure it was in the "Molds... Maintenance and Design" forum... okay I found it:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=135695&highlight=paint

Post #13 ~ he used stove paint. You might try lightly coating the cavity then lightly lapping to get the rest out and leave what is in the pores/pits.

Or maybe a mould release would fill in those pesky pits or whatever:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/763758/frankford-arsenal-drop-out-bullet-mold-release-agent-and-lube-6-oz-aerosol

The graphite may fill for a while and is easy to reapply.

I would just hate to see you scrap the mould if it can be fixed is all. Mind you, one of the benefits of these types of moulds is that they do not take a long time to make. It may be quicker to make a new one than mess with one that has quirks.

Good luck.

Longbow

[FrankG]

Have you tried reducing temp of lead pot ?

[DoctorBill]

"Have you tried reducing temp of lead pot ?"
Yes - I set the Lee Pot to No. 2 - just short of the lead setting.
Lower temp makes the "ribbulets" thing happen.

Run your melting pot outside at night w/o any lights on.
You'll be surprised - it glows dull red ! You'd never know it...

".......he used stove paint."
I have a spray can of "Rust-Oleum" Specialty High Heat Paint.
The can shows a Bar-B-Que on the front.
http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=112
From the TDS - "For use on grills, wood burning stoves, radiators,
engines and other metal items that achieve surface temperatures
greater than 200ºF (93 ºC) and up to 1200ºF (648ºC)."

The above paint contains (solid compounds) - from the MSDS
Iron Manganese Oxide
Magnesium Silicate
Copper Chromite Black
Carbon Black

Good idea - thanks for that !

I will try that.
I'd have to thoroughly dry it then lap it again.
Wonder if it wears off quickly ?

How would you know rolled versus cast Aluminum just by appearance ?

It was on shelves of various Aluminum bars, rods, sheets, wire...at a local
metal recycling place (Du-Mor in Spokane).

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

How come your pitures do not get bigger when i click on it/
Because they are not 'thumbnails' of larger image files. The originals were saved at the size you see, so there is no 'larger version' to view.

Your browser should have the ability to 'zoom in', though ...

CM

[Longwood]

There is a good chance the aluminum you have is foreign aluminum made from recycled "God only knows".
The spots could be magnesium or about anything.
If all of the spots are on the nose area. i would try boring or laping the hole deeper.
Go very easy, the spots could be gauling spots.

Foreign steel and aluminum is reaaly bad and their copper is even worse. That is why their electric motors are so low powered.
I once found a stainless steel spoon embedded in a piece of 1/2" steel plate from Korea.

[DoctorBill]

Great !

When I buy Aluminum, how do I know it is good ?

A **** shoot.

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

Not sure how long the paint would last but it is worth a try if the mould is porous. I would just spray a bit into a plastic container then use a small brush or Q-tip to coat the mould where required and lightly lap after. I have to think that a mould release after painting would be a good idea too ~ even just rubbing a pencil lightly over the painted area though sticking didn't seem to be a problem for the split mould referenced.

As for the aluminum, I doubt there is a good way to visually determine cast or rolled/extruded if the material has been machined. If it hasn't been machined, thick of a motorcycle cylinder surface ~ that is cast.

If you order of ask for bar/rod stock it should be rolled or extruded. Aluminum types and grades will be available on the internet:

http://www.keytometals.com/page.aspx?ID=AluminumGrades&LN=EN
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=properties_of_aluminum_alloys

6061 should be a good grade for a mould and is quite common.

If you are buying unknown scrap then any round or square bar stock should be wrought aluminum and decent for your purpose. The softer grades may not machine well though as they may smear.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

I said to Hell with it and put the mold in my Drill Press Vice and bored
just half a Framistan into the mold.

I then took a good bullet, clamped it in the Drill Press Vice with heavy card
material to protect it, drilled and tapped for 10-32 threaded rod.

As I was lapping away with Flitz metal polish wishing I had some lapping
compound, I remembered reading somewhere that TOOTHPASTE is a fairly
good grinding paste.

Ah Ha ! Got my trusty toothpaste tube and had at the mold with Arm & Hammer
Baking Soda (Mint Flavored) toothpaste.

http://www.mynetimages.com/a2e592bc71.jpg

Holy Moly ! I could FEEL it grinding much more than I do FLITZ Metal Polish !
The smell of Mint was everywhere !

After a few passes, the mold looked much better ! Try it !
Lapping Compound in your very own bathroom !

Finished it off with some Flitz to make it shine, rubbed it with Sili-Kroil and now
I am ready to try it again.

As long as the mold stays below 0.450 inch diameter, I am OK for Paper Patching.

Edited in Later -
In order of molding (twenty made)
http://www.mynetimages.com/a28b989590.jpg

I put some Sili-Kroil in a bottle cap and rubbed the cavity with it on a Q-Tip
every five or so casts. No sticking anymore.

For those who never heard of Kroil...amazing penetrating oils.
http://www.kanolabs.com/penLub.html

DoctorBill
.

[Longwood]

If you blow it, it looks like the block is big enough to drill from the other side for a second attempt.
new aluminum stock almost always has what it is, printed on it, much like hose or wire.

[lreed]

Hello, It appears the thread is slowing down enough for a question. What is the ratio so to speak of the reamer to the finished bullet, the the finished mold cavity will be as large or larger than the reamer, the lead will shrink somewhat according to the diameter of bullet and alloy, so is there a rule of thumb to arrive at a given bullet diameter? I have attempted making reamers of this type in the past, but never came to much, lacked the knowledge,hope to try again after following this discussion,that is why this a daily read, Thanks for sharing!!!
lreed

[nanuk]

DrB

when you are lapping, do you just hold the boolit inside? or do you push/pull it to create the slight taper others have talked about?

I think this may also help reduce any minor imperfections that run around the cavity.

that last batch looks pretty good....

now how about telling us how they shoot?

[DoctorBill]

I described how I lap in a previous posting.
Yes I go in and out usually not all the way in to form a taper.

That is why I thought the small leather pad on a popsicle stick would
do well to remove "rings" in the mold. In and out is easier with that.

I bought some Birchwood Casey Aluminum Black today and will try that
as a form of internal anodizing to help release the bullet.

However, the Sili-Kroil seems to work well also !

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

Am in a quandary - Blacken it or just go with what I have ?
The experimentalist in me wants to phart around with it......

The weather here has turned wet and windy.
A REAL mess - as I say to my friends, it is "too s**ty to shoot" - (TSTS).

For an old phart, anyway - I turn 69 on Saturday !
I consider myself lucky if I just wake up in the morning !

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

.....
For an old phart, anyway -I turn 69 on Saturday !
I consider myself lucky if I just wake up in the morning !

DoctorBill

DrB: I am only 48, and I feel the same way!

[montana_charlie]

I bought some Birchwood Casey Aluminum Black today and will try that
as a form of internal anodizing to help release the bullet.

However, the Sili-Kroil seems to work well also !

If it ain't broke - don't fix it.

Am in a quandary - Blacken it or just go with what I have ?
The experimentalist in me wants to phart around with it......
The desired situation is to use a mould without any 'additives'.
The additions are usually seen as 'workarounds' which allow use of the mould in spite of it's defect(s) ... if it (they) can't be corrected.

CM

[DoctorBill]

Well now...CM....I want to say some things, but I will just leave it lie....

I am about to order this:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=893-1273&PMPXNO=9256565&PARTPG=INLMK32

http://www.mynetimages.com/3df5973872.jpg

Once Gary, my machinist friend OK's it, I will buy it.
$970 TOTAL - free shipping with no State Sales Tax.

God Help Me !

I feel like I am about to jump off of some cliff - no going back !

Sixty Nine years old and starting into big time (for me) machinery !

I have to learn how to use a Lathe ! ...at my age !

Once I get it, I can make molds until the cows come home or until I croak.

Kinda scary for me.

Most complicated machine I ever used is my small bench drill press and my snow blower !

Tried wood working - Table Saw, Band Saw, Cross Cut Saw...didn't lose any fingers !

A Lathe ! Jesus .....

DoctorBill

[FrankG]

Heres another and they give you support also an set up and tips.

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=4100&category=1271799306

[montana_charlie]

Well now...CM....I want to say some things, but I will just leave it lie....
I'm glad you did, because that truncated post of mine doesn't read like I meant it to sound.

When I edited it at 11:58, I corrected a word, and added two lines. The spelling correction went in, but the additional remarks did not.

Anyway, I meant to go on to say that since you have only limited ability to physically correct defects because the mould doesn't open, I would use Kroil only ... if that is sufficient ... because it is easiest to completely remove if you ever want to.

I would only go for the Aluminum Black if nothing else did the job.

See ... I was just trying to help you with the quandry.



Of course, now that you've gone and bought a lathe, everything changes.

CM

[Buckshot]

...............DoctorBill, Do NOT forget to order a copy of South Bend's book, "How to run a Lathe". Manual lathes really haven't changed much in operation for well over 100 years. A lathe hand from the 1880's would be right at home on a manual lathe today. Cutting tools have changed with the discovery of high speed steel and then the carbides, but the machines not so much. I stand by what I'd said earlier. You get a lathe and I'll send you a care package.

................Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Buckshot - I sent you a PM with my address....???

I am trying to decide how to make a Lathe Bench.

I refuse to spend 30% of the cost of a fine complex machine
on a simple minded stand or bench !

Cement Blocks filled with cement and rebar or an strong Angle
Iron, bolted together table ?

Put it in my cold/hot garage or in my basement warm/dry ?
An invasion.

A real quandary.....

"How to run a Lathe" - in bookstores ?

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

DrB

I think you have a serious infection!

it is attacking your brain and before you know it you will be completely consumed by the madness.....

and you will be hallucinating about a Mill, and a Shaper, and a.... and a....

there is no cure!!!!!

[FrankG]

Here ya go Doc , lots of good info in small package.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=south+bend+how+to+run+a+lathe&x=13&y=14

[DoctorBill]

Tried looking for "How To Run A Lathe" in a BIG used bookstore here in my "City" (Ha).

Was told anything like that sells so fast it makes their heads spin !

I may have to order one from Amazon or that Ilk....

Deciding how to make a Bench Lathe "Bench".

Concrete Blocks cemented together with Re-Bar for the Table ends

or

Use large Angle Iron and 1/2 inch Bolts & Nuts.
I know how to used Nuts & Bolts and a Drill - I can make very strong
devices out of Angle Iron....

Example from a Google Image Search:
http://www.mynetimages.com/7b246ddd62.jpg

I'd like it to be massive, but one can't move "Massive" if one wants to !

OR

Maybe a 4 x 4 Wood Table...Kinda Like this:
http://www.mynetimages.com/02132f040d.jpg

Can't decide....

DoctorBill

[scrapcan]

Doctor Bill,

you can find a couple of older versions of HTRAL at the following site, don't buy it until you have a chance to look at what is available for free.

http://wswells.com/data/htral/htral_index.html

[Longwood]

I would probably make one like the one made with 4x4's and bolts.
Instead of yhe 2x4 braces, I wouild use plywood so i could make a cabinet with one shelf.
Making one that I trusted from steel would be pretty costly.
My mill lathe combo is sitting on a big heavy steel cabinet that I bought at the recycler and I use every inch of the cabinet space..
I beefed up under the top of the steel cabinet where the mill sits with some pieces of 1/4X2 angle iron,
My West bend is sitting on a steel table with the steel pan that came with it and it is a little bit too low for my old back.
I decided to make a fire piston this morning, was making good headway but to take a coffee break to come in and taake a Vicodin.

PS
It's 71 and sunny.

[FrankG]

The heavier and stiffer you can make it the better . Get all the wiggle out you can . If you make it of lumber you may consider boxing in the top with heavy plywood to help take flex out of it . Get some thin sheet metal and make a chip pan to catch your chips and oil . It will make clean up easier.

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

What manleyjt says!

There is good free stuff available. Let me look through my links then I will PM whatever may be useful for you.

I know I used to have some good sites and how to articles but I am pretty sure there are actual manuals online as well.

I will see what I can find this weekend.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Went over to my machinist friend Gary this afternoon.

He has a small 6" lathe in his shop on a bench he made of 4x4's with 2x6's
around the top and near the bottom.
He also said to put plywood back and sides to firm it up.
Works great with no worries.

So...dats whot Ima gonna do wit it !

I know wood - have a Table Saw, Band Saw, Cut off Saw and a Circular saw.

Decided.

My Lathe will arrive end of next week and the local hardware that is accepting
it from the truck delivery will run it up to my house a few blocks away
and set it on my driveway pad in front of my Garage Door.

Nice of them !

I am already looking thru the ENCO Master Catalog for goodies to buy for
the new Lathe. Gary grins at me and says I'm going to spend LOTS of money
on more and more goodies. BIG GRIN ! Arrggg !

Gary is going to give me some metal stock that he was going to throw away.
He has MORE STUFF he wants to give me....
People who know him give him tools (worth a fortune) that they have
no use for. Expensive stuff ! His house is a museum of old tools that work
great and originally cost big time ! They hand it to him for free !

He has more Collets than I have hairs on my head !

He let me borrow a CD called,
"Manual of Lathe Operation & Machinists Tables by the Atlas Press Co."

BTW - Here is Gary's Lathe in his basement workshop.
http://www.mynetimages.com/6920efa3aa.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/8aec55e824.jpg

He was fixing my Carcano's crown for me - long time ago.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/38599/master/1/

He makes a lot of the tools he uses on his Lathe.

I want to take a picture of the Monster old turn of the century Lathe he has out in his
Big Workshop. Boyle-Ames and Hamilton.
He bought it and rebuilt it. The Chuck on it must weigh a ton or more.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Off topic - but maybe of help to those considering buying a Lathe to make Molds and such.

Buying the wood for the Lathe Bench - 2x6's and 4x4's for the legs.

Am pondering over the bench HEIGHT ! I am 5' 10" tall.
Don't want to be stooping over nor do I want it too high.

Lathe is said to be 16" high (total) - figure 8" high at the work area.

Suggestions ? BUCKSHOT has recommended making it a THREE LEGGED Bench.

I want to put LARGE Tee-Nuts in the ends of the Bench Legs to make the
Bench adjustable as to level. (5/8ths?)
http://www.mynetimages.com/a74368ff6c.jpg

Maybe just drill a deep hole in the end and use 3/4" Bolts and a LARGE
WASHER and a nut - let them float in the deep hole....the leg would set on
the large washer supported by the 3/4" nut.

The top will be 2 x 6's lengthwise over 2 x 6's crosswise (3" thick)
maybe with a 1/2 Plywood topover.

It has been said that I overbuild for strength ! (My Wife !)

My friend Gary tells me to not bolt the Lathe down tight - to let
it float on bolts not tightened down.
Can't move sideways, but can self adjust up & down.
Hmmmm.....

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

instead of plywood for a top, have you considered MDF, or HDF?

screwed on, it is replaceable, and it makes a nice smooth "Hard" surface to work on

[DoctorBill]

I will consider that.

Also, I was thinking of going to a local Restaurant Supply Store where they
sell large "cookie pans".
Under car oil drip pans also (someone's suggestion here).

Keeps all the chips and turnings and oil confined.

Even the top to an old laminated kitchen table being tossed out - old Formica.
There is even a Bamboo Laminate now - tough.

More than one way to skin a cat - and if you go to recycling centers, there's
a lot of inexpensive material to use.

http://www.mynetimages.com/cc2c932233.jpg I make pennies squeak !

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

I am so tight, I have to screw my socks onto my feet.


Make it beefy.
That smooth white stuff is glued together sawdust that has very little strength.
Most plywood these days is pure junk that has very little strength.
The sort of orange colored chip board with the large wood flakes is fairly strong.
If you really want something very strong made from wood, look at the plywood they use for sub flooring.
I made a pan for a brake lathe by cutting the ends out of two of those big cookie sheets then using silicone to seal a small overlap that I made where they fit together.
I use those sheets for all sorts of things. Here is a photo of one use.

PS
I just noticed that all of the storage boxes and cabinets came from the rcycler for scrap prices.

I am not sure why but the restaurants seem to toss those pans a lot. Make sure you tell Junky about the big steel bracing rod in the lip if he wants too much for them. I bought all of mine at the reecycle yard for $3.00 each

[DoctorBill]

This is the Beast coming this Friday...38" x 19" x 16" high. (9 x 20 Lathe)

http://www.mynetimages.com/cdfd88546c.jpg

Starting the Lathe Bench Top...using 2 x 9 wood from an old Water Bed
plus a 2 x 6 I had in the garage. Putting cross members on it.

http://www.mynetimages.com/ae361d4b05.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/72f2ab1c40.jpg

Cans & Bottles of Cast Bullets for weight. TightBond II Wood Glue.

Of course it had to start snowing again while I was cutting the boards...

http://www.mynetimages.com/7d087c1aa7.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/eb485b7fe1.jpg Top done.

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

I decided to make my homemade black powder bullet mold into a smokeless mold by laping out 4 to 5 thousandths.
:D
All I have on hand is 320 grit but I decided to give it a try.
I lapped some, then cleaned it and cast a bullet.
:-)
I lapped a lot then cleaned it and cast another bullet.
:-(
I lapped it even longer then cleaned it and cast a bullet.
:x
I am going to town tomorrow to buy some courser valve grinding compound.

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I am jealous! I just have a beat up old Atlas lathe with 3 1/2" swing and 18" between centers.

That lathe you have coming looks very nice indeed!

You will be showing us all up in no time with that and having fun doing it I am sure. Good for you! Enjoy!

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

Longwood - "I decided to make my homemade black powder bullet mold
into a smokeless mold by laping out 4 to 5 thousandths."

That seems like an awful lot of metal to lap out - what is the mold made of ?

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

Longwood - "I decided to make my homemade black powder bullet mold
into a smokeless mold by laping out 4 to 5 thousandths."

That seems like an awful lot of metal to lap out - what is the mold made of ?:lovebooli

DoctorBill

It is made from 2024 or 6061 aluminum, the printing is long gone.. I get all sorts of round stock from a friend that has a big CNC shop where he makes parts by the thousands for the Aircraft and Aerospace people.
I am afraid to try to machine out any more because I am not a very good machinest.
If it gets to 60 degrees out, I may just mill another bit today instead of doing the honing.
I bought a few carbide end mills from my favorite shopping place, ebay, and need to try a couple.
I need to slow down on how many projects I have going all at the same time. It seems like every time I finish a project, I manage to start two more.
I doubt it will get warm enough again today so I will most likely wrap some of the bullets i cast yesterday.
The knife makers area is getting me all hot an bothered about making some more knives. I need some like I needed a Hiwall and now a Sharps repo 45-70.
:lovebooli

[DoctorBill]

OK...all you Lathe'rs out there !

Now that I am all Lathe'red up....what do you recommend I buy as tool
metal, etc that I should get for my new Lathe ?

Just try not to go completely APE on me !

I don't have a money tree growing in my yard.

DoctorBill

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I use lots of scrap metal, some of which I find, some is given to me and some I buy.

I regularly use old Mazda MPV headbolts to me D bits and other tools (best use I have found for that Mazda ~ ask me why I have two sets of head bolts!).

Any old grade 8 bolts can be annealed, turned, ground/shaped then heat treated to make reamers and other tools.

My gas check maker is all made from old scrap: old single jack miners drill I found for the disk punch, old Suzuki shackle bolt for the male check forming punch and old Suzuki axle for the check forming die body.

Machine shops tend to have lots of left over chunks they will sell cheap.

Friends and family often have old vehicles that can be stripped for useful metal in the form of large bolts, axles, universal joints and other odds and ends. Also, wreckers and mechanics have buckets of scrap that can often be useful to you but garbage to them.

Point being, you don't have to spend a bunch if you look around. I do buy round bar steel and bronze for bullet moulds but most other smaller stuff has come from my or someone else's scrap.

Also, I said I would send some links. Here is what I have that is useful:

http://www.vintageprojects.com/lathe-milling-plans.html
http://www.green-trust.org/junkyardprojects/FreeHomeWorkshopPlans.html
http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/hstpages.html
http://www.sherline.com/grinding.htm
http://www.lautard.com/
http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/article_sort.htm
http://www.americanmachinetools.com/how_to_use_a_lathe.htm
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3514&category=
http://www.proshoppublishing.com/tips_proshop.html
http://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz/
http://www.metalwebnews.com/mr.html
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/
http://home.iprimus.com.au/stevor/Toolworks.htm

That should give you some reading material and some good ideas too. I may also have some old copies of manuals and such in pdf form. I will look and let you know.

I've been looking for seeds for a money tree myself... no luck so far.

Have fun!

Longbow

[Buckshot]

.............DoctorBill, Pretty sure all you'll need at first is HSS toolbits for your cutting tools, doing what you're planning to do at first. Things you'll need, some now, some eventually if you do much. These are are considered "Consumables". Some you need right now, some are simply 'nice & handy to have', and you know which is which.

Way oil
Spindle oil
Cutting oil (when cutting threads I use old fashioned stinky sulpherized dark oil.

*Note* If your lathe does not have way wipers, you should install them after cleaning off the preservative and before cutting metal. From the photo it looks like the saddle has them. The tailstock needs them too, and seldom comes from the factory so equipped. I'll try to remember to send some hard felt.

Oil dry (cat litter)
Sheet metal splash guard behind lathe
Handy paper towel (roll) dispensor.
3/8" HSS tool bits
Dial indicator (.001")
Test indicator (.0005")
Holders for the above. Can be bought or made for either, except for the dovetail clamp fo the TI which it should come with.
Magnetic base for the DI & TI.
Boring bars (to take square HSS bits)
Set of fractional drill bits (suggest Parabolics, 130 - 135º split point)
Set of Number drill bits (same suggestion)
Set of Letter drill bits (Ditto)
Set of Fractional chucking reamers
Set of Over-Under reamers

For additions to the lathe, assuming it comes with a 4 jaw in addition to the 3 jaw, and a faceplate (if you're missing any of these 3 items they would be a FOR SURE 1st & 2nd purchase) would be:

Clamping stuff for the faceplate (you can make easily enough)
Couple small (Ground finish) angle plates for the faceplate.
QC toolpost and holders (probably AXA size)
Toolpost milling vise(one for a 7" machine can be adapted)
If you do eventually get a milling vise, to hold endmills I'd suggest a MT3 (I think your spindle taper will be MT3) ER40 collet chuck. You can aquire collets individually as you need them. I've seen guys use a jacobs chuck for this but it's not optimal. The collet chuck requires a drawbar, but it's VERY simple to make.

A few photo's of some of the stuff I mentioned:

http://www.fototime.com/26857D3EBA317D2/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/6AF3BE634A683B4/standard.jpg

LEFT: Just as a fr'instance, indicating a beatup old Lyman 4C mould in the toolpost milling vice. RIGHT: Facemilling the mould. Notice the feeler guage sticking out?

http://www.fototime.com/93F71909545DD96/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/44F25A73466923B/standard.jpg

LEFT: ER40 collet chuck on a MT3 adaptor.RIGHT: Ho'made boring bar. This one takes round bits (old drill shanks, or drill/reamer blanks)

http://www.fototime.com/6ADB65C4A381D83/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E5745333F6A7CCE/standard.jpg

LEFT: A TI and DI each using their home made clamps and rods. RIGHT: My Toolpost Milling Vice I used before getting a vertical mill. It's not clamped to the tollpost on the compound, but to a steel plate I have mounted on a dual toolpost cross slide I got on E-Bay. Designs details will be different but they gnerally all operate similarly. Light cuts are the watchword, but they do allow honest, and accurate milling to be done.

................Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Gary and some of you guys told me this was "just the beginning" of spending
my money.

Well...here I go !

http://www.mynetimages.com/f1d915a9d9.jpg

Gary, my machinist Guru, told me to get the magnetic base and a gauge and
I'd need the telescoping Gauges.

I am not sure that the Lathe comes with SQUAT, so I bought a set of various
bits at Harbor Freight.

I spied a set of inside cutting bits there for $15 and a box if 10 Carbide tipped Bits
for $15 (?) which I think I'll acquire tomorrow.

Most of this stuff was on sale ! Ask and ye shall receive !

Used the 20% off Coupon you find in every magazine of late.
Nice for penny pinching tight wads such as myself !
(I have more of them !) nyuck nyuck nyuck (Curly's sound - 3 Stooges).
Yoooo wooo woooo woooooooo!
http://www.mynetimages.com/9086b4584d.jpg

Photo of my latest endeavors of making the Lathe table.
The wood and screws and bolts has cost me $41 so far.

http://www.mynetimages.com/b28a6ad5d0.jpg

DoctorBill

PS - I am wondering what my "Care Package" will be !

[FrankG]

A set of these come in handy too .
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=615-6250&PMPXNO=949268&PARTPG=INLMK3

[Buckshot]

PS - I am wondering what my "Care Package" will be ![/QUOTE]

...............Wanna see that lathe sitting on it's drip pan on that fancy table!

..............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

"....fancy table !" - - - - - - Fancy Table ?

Of course, you meant Excellent Table or High Quality Table....right ? !

According to ENCO, it left Georgia on Friday and will take 5 work days by Truck.

Then it will be brought to my house by the Hardware Store where it is being delivered
on a tractor-Fork Lift.

Then I have to get it into my house - 230 lbs.....THAT should be interesting !

It is snowing and 15° F out there at night. I am 69 years old.

The typical March weather is not cooperating.

It might interfere with my plans to make a Space Shuttle out of scrap Aluminum
by May first, using my trusty, new Lathe....

DoctorBill

PS - My machinist friend thinks that Tool Post Milling Vices are dangerous.
He says it is a good way to break something. He had one and gave it away.
I can't repeat here the words he used to describe them.
Merde ! I thought that would be a good way to Mill things w/o a Milling Machine.
He says - put in into the four jaw chuck and turn it down flat with a bit.

[SharpsShooter]

Hey Doc,

I'm following your odyssey into the world of machinist wizardry with great interest. Thanks for sharing with us. :D

SS

[Longwood]

One accident that is quite common with lathes, is caused by people not removing the chuck wrench from the chuck and turning on the lathe.
The stories are numerous. :(
Please get it into your head to never ever take your hand off of the wrench unless it is in it's proper storage place.
A piece of angle stock with a big hole big enough to easily stick the wrench in is screwed to the front edge of my bench just below the chuck.

[DoctorBill]

Yes !

My friend Gary has one also - never take your hand off the lever that engages
the Threading Feed when threading or cutting. Don't know the jargon yet.....

If you need to stop it quickly, you are NEVER fast enough to stop it before it hits the end of the run !

Then.....Big Badda Boom !

Am Skirting that "Fancy Table" with 2x6's when the battery pooped out - Typical !

http://www.mynetimages.com/e6294beb90.jpg

Then I will Glue it once test assembled.
Then the bottom 2x4 ring, then the plywood back and sides.
You could rebuild a Big V8 engine on this "Fancy Table"....

DoctorBill

Hey SharpShooter - I hijacked your signature and enhanced it.
Liked it so much...

[DoctorBill]

While driving home, I got to thinking that this thread may have gotten way off
track from making PP BP Bullet Molds.

If so, perhaps it is time to terminate it.

I suppose the Moderator(s) should let me know.

With that in mind, I would like to ask all the "Lathers" who have posted
their comments to please inform me of any and all GOOD Lathe Machine Forums
that I might go to while wading thru the learning the Lathe operation process.

One's that will treat a newbie Lathe Owner like a human being - not some low
life squid.

I have seen some while 'surfing' the Internet, but many seem like a lot of
'good ol' boy' yuck it up and discussions of trivial stuff.

I will finish up this thread with pictures of my new setup when the Lathe
arrives, then go to a true Lathing Forum to pick up whatever I can there.

So please guys, give me some leads to good Lathe Machining Forums that
YOU know are good.

DoctorBill

[HollowPoint]

DoctorBill:

You're starting to remind me of ME. I bought the Grizzly version of that same lathe. I also made my own stand out of 4x4 lumber. Even put some heavy duty casters on it so I could move it around to make room if need be.

Same lathe, same tools, same dreams, same learning process; it must be a universal theme if a guy wants to make their own stuff rather than pay someone to do it for them.

I look forward to seeing some of your future projects. Incidentally, there's a Yahoo 9x19 Lathe users group that I found extremely helpful whenever I've fallen face first into the manual-lathe-learning-curve.

You have to join the group but it's free; and you don't get alot of "Know-It-Alls" with snide remarks to make you feel like a fool for asking for help. You just get answers to your questions.

Like alot of the guys here, there are alot of guys in that Yahoo-9x19 Lathe users group with hands on experience with that particular style of lathe so the answers you may be seeking aren't extrapolations from other machines; they are answers for that exact machine.

HollowPoint

HollowPoint

[FrankG]

Doc are you going to skirt the bottom of legs with 2x's and put a plywood shelf down there ? Be a good place to store some stuff and at same time stiffen and add weight to it .

Heres a friendly place I visit . Not a full on machining sight but a lot of hobby machine work goes on :)
http://garagegunsmithing.com/

[DoctorBill]

HollowPoint - Can you give me a link to that 9x19 Lathe Yahoo Users Group ?

I tried to find it on Yahoo....I guess I am too dumb to find it !

Also - HOW in the world did you move the Lathe to a workbench ! ?
My crate will weigh about 250 lbs.
I am supposing I can take some parts off of it maybe down to 180 lbs...(?)

Can it be moved with a refrigerator or furniture dolly ?

DoctorBill

[HollowPoint]

Good Morning Dr. B:

I was able to drag the pallet holding my new lathe into my shop space. I had stripped all the other stuff off the pallet. (crate, tool box, Back Splash, etc. to lighten the load)

I then created a ramp out of blocks and plywood so that I could slowly get it to the height of the wooden stand. Took a long time but, I didn't have anyone to help me so I had to raise it about four inches at a time.

I had a sore back for a couple of days but it worked. I got it mounted onto my home made stand.

The link you asked about is as follows:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/9x20Lathe/

It's been some time since I've had to ask any questions there. The last time I visited was when I was trying to learn how to cut threads with my Grizzly lathe.

I think you'll find it helpful.

HollowPoint

[DoctorBill]

HollowPoint - So you dragged it in.

Hmmm.... There is snow on the ground and I have an old, fairly strongly
built plastic toboggan.

Then I have a Furniture mover with wheels on each corner.

I also have a BIG furniture dolly.

Then you raised it up on blocks 4 inches at a time.

Now you have given me an Idea !

Once in beside the "FANCY TABLE" (Shotgun), maybe I can use my
automotive floor jack and raise it up, then block it, then raise it again....

I'd be worried that it would tip over....

I also have a 24 year old son - maybe between us we can just lift it.

I don't want a screwed up back, however.

I suppose that if the Egyptians were able to move heavy blocks of stone
around without wheels or fork lifts, that I can move a small, poopy little
Lathe into my shop. Just gots ta think a bit.....harder to do of late.

What I really need are some slaves !

DoctorBill

[powderburnerr]

a sixpack of beer and a couple of your sons friends , is almost as good as slaves, maybe a pizza on the other side of the bench would also stimulate them ,

[DoctorBill]

Beer !

That is how one moves it !

I think the Egyptians had beer also !

Funny how you never read about the Egyptians making
the pyramids using "Beer Power" !

Beer has undocumented powers...and Cigars !

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

MMMM.... Beeeeeerrrr...

the Nectar of the Gods!

also known as Guinness

[HollowPoint]

"Dragging It In" makes it sound a little easier than it really was. Actually I inched it in little my little.

Once inside,I jacked it up exactly the way you've described; more or less. Minus the beer and the slaves.

I used a cheap harbor freight floor jack. I just lifted one end and blocked it, then went around to the other end and blocked it up; and so forth.

As long as you have one end supported evenly while you jack the opposite end up from the center. it shouldn't tip. Having one end supported by your son is even better.

When I took delivery of my Mill it was even harder. (around 800 lbs) I had to rent an engine hoist, take apart my shop door, and cuss alot just to get it inside.

HollowPoint

[dragonrider]

Whenever I am doing something requiring heavy lifting and I am alone, I always think "If the Egyptians built the pyramids, I can do this." Thinking this always helps me come up with a way to do the project safely. It may take a while and I may have to build something to do it, but it usually works. If you have a block and tackle you could perhaps build a tripod, get your lathe under it and use the block and tackle to lift the machine then slide the table under it. Just a thought.

[Longwood]

I did it this new fangled way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_crib

42" all by myself.

[FrankG]

It can be done :) My buddy and I just hauled a 3 ton 18"x 60" Monarch lathe home on a car trailer . We unloaded it with a 2 ton cherry picker hoist !
Just like eating an elephant ! Only took four hours to unload .

[DoctorBill]

My Table is done except for the bottom skirt 2x4's and plywood sides.
Those should go on fast.
I will put a plywood board across the bottom as a shelf.

What can I put on the Leg Ends so that I can adjust the height for leveling ?

Was thinking of large Tee Nuts, but I believe there are adjustable workbench
leg ends available somewhere - I just can't find them.

Probably because I don't know their specific name.

Does anyone know what these things are called and where to buy them ?

Should be able to support 500 lbs.

Edited in Later....just found something.
http://sell.lulusoso.com/selling-leads/273308/Adjustable-Cabinet-Feet-Adjustable-Cabinet-Foot-Adjustable-Table-Feet-Adjustable-Table-Foot.html

http://www.mynetimages.com/664535294f.jpg

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

If the ends of the legs will not get wet, I would sit it one the floor and use shingle wedges to level it.
Once level. glue the wedges to keep them from slipping then trim them.

[Longwood]

i have used the adjustable feet by drilling a deep enough hole in the end of the leg so I can drive in a tight fitting, long connector nut.

[DoctorBill]

So here it is.
Minus the 2x4 bottom skirt and plywood back - plus some shelving.

Just putting heaviest weights I can find on it to allow the slight torque in the
legs to be twisted out before it ages much. I think this table would support my car !

http://www.mynetimages.com/b32821595c.jpg

I suppose I should paint it. Maybe find some kind of top - MDF or HDF or old Formica
from a Thrift Store table - something CHEAP so I can save up to buy a Tailstock Chuck.

Lathe is in the city - coming to my little podunk township via a secondary
carrier today....they say.

Soon comes the FUN of getting it downstairs onto that table.
The table won't be exactly where shown - obviously !

DoctorBill

[Swede44mag]

Very interesting thread look forward to seeing your lathe.
Be sure to put a piece of plywood or a wide board under your lathe chuck ontop of the ways.
Just in case you drop the chuck while taking it off.
Also a metal cover over the top of your table so the oil dont soak up.

I bought a used Atlas many years it was made in 1956 same year as I was born.
Cost me $900.00 but is plenty accurate for now.
I need to redo the pan under my Atlas it is bent real bad.
Made many projects for my Moms sharpening business.
Not something we could buy.
Last was an extension to hold routerbits in her routerbit sharpener.
Can't always what you want unless you go to some machine shop and kick out BIG BUCKS.

[Lead pot]

D-B

I dont know what sort of floor your setting that lathe on. I would strongly suggest you set it on a metal base something that wont move with moisture and flexing.
My Sheldon R-15 lathe is very solid and heavy, about 3000 lbs and I have to re level the ways using a machinist level, not a $25. handy man level. If you dont do this in a short time the bed will get sprung and you will have a lot of run out.
Mine is sitting on a concrete floor and I have to re level it now and then because it will wear into the floor in time.

[DoctorBill]

I just ordered this "Elapsed Time" clock so I know several years from now
how long I have used this Lathe.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9a12329050.jpg

Total price $10 includes shipping from Shanghai !
Item shipped from CHINA Post Airmail, reach most of the countries within 15 to 25 days.
Wonder if I'll ever see it ? Hope our USPS will not destroy it en-route.

Also ordering a Chuck and "Shank Taper: 2MT; Mounting Taper: 3JT" from ENCO for the Tailstock
plus some HSS 3/8 sq cutting bars.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

While driving home, I got to thinking that this thread may have gotten way off
track from making PP BP Bullet Molds.

If so, perhaps it is time to terminate it.
True that it has evolved into something completely different.
Instead of termination, you could ask a Mod to move it to the Special Projects forum http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17 where it should be right at home.

CM

[uscra112]

Do I see the legs held to the skirting by just two ordinary screws? Those should be 5/16 or 3/8 carriage bolts, torqued up tight. One on each leg in each direction. Ordinary screws have no shear strength, nor can they clamp the piece together tightly enough to keep the joint from moving. I'd also add a 3/4" plywood panel about 16" to 18" high on three sides, with screws into the legs every 3" at least. At minimum put a 2x4 diagonal on each side and the back, using carriage bolts. Right now there's not much from preventing that from becoming a flattened parallelogram.

Formica or linoleum on top will keep the wood from becoming oil soaked. It should be pure white, not patterned. (Finding small parts on a plain white surface is much easier.) I found a piece of aluminum plate in a scrap yard, but that was pure luck. MDF will crumble if it gets oil soaked, unless you slather it with polyurethane, (several coats). I dare you to ask me how I know.

[DoctorBill]

uscra112 - I would tend to agree with you about some cross members
to set up a triangle and the use of Lag Screws.

I wood glued all the joints in the leg set up.
I just put an 18" x 45" x 3/8" Plywood back - glued and screwed.

If I was holding up my 1800 lb Geo Metro automobile onto that table, I would
put 2 x 4 cross members on it.

All I will have is a 230 lb Lathe and I won't be pushing it sideways.

I believe I will cross member the two sides in opposite directions to
each other on the sides after I put the 2x4 skirting on the front and side legs.

See the crude Diagram - I still haven't obtained a drawing program !

http://www.mynetimages.com/cf010c18fb.jpg

A picture of the corner up close. This thing is massive....
But a few Four Inch Lag Bolts wouldn't do any harm - make it heavier than it is.

http://www.mynetimages.com/824e07a736.jpg

"A Flattening Parallelogram (with a Lathe on top)"....a hideous thought !

DoctorBill

[Box13]

I would just put a plywood panel on the 2 sides,that will be stronger then a cross brace if it is glued and screwed...

[Buckshot]

...............DoctorBill I won't mention everything in the care package as I don't remember it all, but there IS a Jacobs chuck on a MT2 adaptor in there. So far as your friend Gary's comments go reguarding a toolpost milling vice, well everyone has an opinion. Good, bad, indifferent, learned off the 'net', or learned by actual use, or learned by 'accident'. Think about it. How could a toolpost milling vice be dangerous? The one obvious answer is through misuse, or being a knucklehead. The vise itself is NOT dangerous. Kind of like an automobile or a chainsaw. The toolpost milling vise isn't the BEST answer, nor will it do a lot of things a turret mill will but until you manage to scrape up $6,000+ for one, you sure as heck can cut slots in metal, or do flycutting & etc, that fit within it's operating envelope, and the capabilities of your machine.

I'm sure Gary is a great guy, and has been immence help to you. But to dismiss the toolpost vice by saying if you want something faced off to chuck it up and face it is simplistic. Of course if that's what you need, by all means do that. I would also. If it's square and you don't have a 4 jaw chuck you could use a faceplate. But what if you want a slot? I suppose you could trot over and have Gary do it in that case. A lot of people denigrate the 3 in 1 machines but I've seen a LOT of usefull things made on them, and if you don't have room for a lathe and a full fledged mill, what are you supposed to do? Takeing up knitting might be an option.

I don't own a company making toolpost milling vices, nor do I have one for sale. However before I got my 9x42 milling machine I used a toolpost milling vice considerably. I didn't lose an arm, nor did I become sterile. At first I hated removing the toolpost, mounting the milling vise and then indicating it perpendicular. Doing the job and then tearing it back off and replacing the toolpost was also a pain because I KNEW there was a better way, but being born handsome instead of rich was my lot :-) In the end I DID have my slot(s).

In case no one else has suggested it, here's a couple Home/Hobbiest machining boards:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/

http://www.chaski.org/homemachinist/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=421a8f2fa4605eceb2ff1b8ad6a02714

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/index.php

And you know about:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM

There are a ton more to discover.

.................Buckshot

[uscra112]

Oh, heck, just put plywood on all four sides and the bottom and fill it with concrete !

Seriously, I was thinking about years hence, when vibration and such have had a chance to work on the fasteners. . . .

Wish I had your skills (or software) to put circles and arrows on photos! Your presentations ar great !

[uscra112]

By the way, there's a guy over on the ASSRA forum who built an entire Borchardt action from scratch, using a tiny bench-top hobbyist mill.

And Harry Pope never had a milling machine. But he did have an attachment for his lathe.

Long ago I had a chance at a German-made 3-in-1 machine. Can't recall the make just now, but it was the model they installed in the U-boats for emergency repairs. Rugged little beast, but at the time I was too obsessed with having a "real" mill that I passed on it. Today I'd kill to have that little beast.

[DoctorBill]

Got a feeling that this will have to be my next acquisition - or some used one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html

http://www.mynetimages.com/cc580bdf1d.jpg

Doing the cutting on stock metal with a hand hack saw is NO FUN !

A 2 or 3 inch diameter Aluminum or Steel rod ! Ouch !

Finished the Lathe Bench

http://www.mynetimages.com/a8dbfe24c5.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/542ebebddd.jpg

I 'may' have to put some sort of a door on there or else my big old
black cat (a Maine Coon) will be snooping around in the "nice new
closed-in cubby hole to hide from the monsters' place.

Don't think I will have the ability to paint it since it is a wet Spring
outside and we don't want to expire from paint fumes....

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

http://www.mynetimages.com/d3a5279987.jpg

It arrived about an hour ago.

Was raining and blowing like a hurricane outside.

Put a Tarp around it and if if weather permits, will have a look at
it tomorrow.

Don't want it to get wet and I don't want to get pizzmonia.

Not as awful heavy as I thought 240 lbs would be....

But the ground is like mush (chocolate pudding) and I may have problems
getting it around to my back door.

Here is a YouTube Video showing one of them...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoV0SpMXIIU

Maybe I should get one of these to hoist it from the floor to the bench using
the ceiling joists...
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-chain-hoist-631.html?ccdenc=eyJjb2RlIjoiNjQzODQ4OTYiLCJza3UiOi I2MzEiLCJpcyI6IjQ5Ljk5IiwicHJvZHVjdF9pZCI6%0D%0AIj I0In0%3D%0D%0A&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1012a&utm_source=1003

DoctorBill

[uscra112]

Urk ! Too late now, maybe, but I would have fitted the crossmembers for the shelf about 4" off the floor, for what the ergonomics mavens call "toe clearance". With it right down on the floor, you're going to be standing back a few inches more and bending over to work. Hard on the back. (Sorry old chap, but I spent 15 years conforming to GM ergonomic standards for every piece of automation equipment I designed. Some of it was pure horse-hockey, but the toe clearance thing is real.)

[Longwood]

I will gladly store all of the rifles you do not have room for in that cabinet in the back ground.

[DoctorBill]

That is one of three cabinets (medium one) I have FILLED....

Please stop me from acquiring any more rifles....!

Not that I had any thought of any "Toe Clearance" when building this bench,
but take a look....

http://www.mynetimages.com/0dd5dbeeae.jpg

I am glad something worked out well - never thought of it, however.

Getting ready to set the Lathe up.

The damned floor is uneven. Tempted to look into adjustable height feet
at NORLIFT in Spokane.

Probably costs $15 per leg though.

I know I can use Bolts, Nuts and Washers and DIY....

BTW - I saw several older Machinist's Levels as low as $30 on E-Bay !

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

Doctor Bill.

Building things are fine. I make and build about everything I can my self. So what I will say this time I dont want you to take this wrong.

All the money you spent on lumber and leveling devices to level your bench will not keep your new lathe from flexing from the changes of the wood swelling and contracting.
The thicker the wood the more the changes, especially in high humid locations.
Just look at your kitchen cabinet doors over the course of the years time.
The $250 cost of the stand with the cabinet and catch pan that comes with it would save you a lot head aces coming.

[DoctorBill]

These are clickable Thumbnail Images - click...they get bigger -
then go to the 'Full Version' lower left of image screen.

http://www.mynetimages.com/5f6f44f16b_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/5f6f44f16b)

http://www.mynetimages.com/53e54be33a_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/53e54be33a)

http://www.mynetimages.com/84d1728c75_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/84d1728c75)

The crate had a bashed in section, but it looks like nothing got
damaged - by the upper right hand side of the photo below...

http://www.mynetimages.com/f006385fd1_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/f006385fd1) http://www.mynetimages.com/536a6d16be_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/536a6d16be)

View from the top:

http://www.mynetimages.com/486403573b_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/486403573b)

Looks well - now to get the bugger into my downstairs !

DoctorBill

Lead Pot - I tried planting a ten dollar bill behind my house to grow a money tree.
If it germinates and grows and starts yielding money fruit before I die of old age, I will
surely buy the steel table for the Lathe. Maybe I'll win the Lottery....right !
In the meantime, I will check the Level often...

[FrankG]

Doc , get some wooden shims from Home Depot that are used for shimming door frames , window frames and such to level up the bench to floor . Less vibration than the adjustable feet. Vibration can cause chatter especially with a light machine .

[Lead pot]

Well then I'm sorry I bothered you.

[Don McDowell]

11 pages and there hasn't been a patched bullet loaded on top of a cartidge case full of blackpowder and fired yet.....
Can't afford a bullet mould, but we can afford a lathe....
Would seem that this thread should be moved to somewhere a bit more appropriate?

[Longwood]

Doc , get some wooden shims from Home Depot that are used for shimming door frames , window frames and such to level up the bench to floor . Less vibration than the adjustable feet. Vibration can cause chatter especially with a light machine .


I would much rather have the "Hell for Stout" and close to dead, wood bench with shingles/shims instead of adjustable feet.
I worked for many years as a Millwright. When we "Set" a machine, we leveled the machine with adjustable feet then filled the void under the legs with a special grout too prevent settling or moving.

[Longwood]

11 pages and there hasn't been a patched bullet loaded on top of a cartidge case full of blackpowder and fired yet.

You can fix that.
Go to user cp and edit the number of posts on page.:kidding:

[montana_charlie]

Would seem that this thread should be moved to somewhere a bit more appropriate?
See Post #191 ...

CM

[DoctorBill]

Mr. McDowell - First off - what do YOU care, anyway ? ! What is it to you ?

Second - I figure that the Moderators are well aware of this thread.

Third - If it were such a big deal, THEY would move it.

Maybe they will. I can't !

BTW - Once again - read your own signature.

DoctorBill

I can make a butt load of bullet molds with this.

http://www.mynetimages.com/7464873c50.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Mr. McDowell - First off - what do YOU care, anyway ? ! What is it to you ?

Second - I figure that the Moderators are well aware of this thread.

Third - If it were such a big deal, THEY would move it.

Maybe they will. I can't !
You can end this thread and start a new one elsewhere. It looked like you were about to do that forty posts ago, so we gave you time to make that adjustment.
It never happened.
... or ...
You could ask a moderator to move this thread, or the lathe-related part of it to a new location.

Otherwise, it's your thread and no moderator is going to take action unless one of us complains, and (so far) we have been too polite to do that.

Why do we care? Because it's 'our' section. That is, it exists for discussions by paper patch shooters who use black powder.
Minor sidetrips into other subjects can add interest to long threads, but this one long ago left the topic of this forum section ... and is unlikely to return.

Why would anybody object to this 'special project' thread existing in a 'paper patch' forum? Probably for the same reason that, when March comes around, a housewife finally demands that her husband get rid of the danged Christmas tree.

It simply no longer belongs where it is.

CM

[DoctorBill]

There seemed to be a lot of interest in this - 5,222 "Views".

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

I bet you are looking forward to trying it out.
Possibly making paper path bullet molds for casting paper patched, pure lead bullets, for shooting paper patched black powder cartridges..

By making my 'D' drill then having to ream and hone to the size I wanted was the hard way, but I enjoyed it and am pleased with the results.
I've have one "Money" style mold patching to .450 for soft lead and black powder and the hard lead mold (also Money style) patches at exactly .458. Both 3/4" bearing surface which is also right where I want it.

My next black powder paper patch bullet mold project will go much quicker.

The hard bullets can be seated in fire formed brass with my fingers, they are pretty tight. I am still experimenting on how far down to size the brass for the soft black powder bullets that I an casting in the mold I made on my lathe.

I used round stock so it will be easy to re-chuck the molds and trim to the proper length too cast the exact weight/length [I] am after.

For the experiment, until I decide on a finished size, I am chucking the bullets in a collet I made so I can machine the sprue from the bullet base in the lathe.

I am debating making the sprue plates but may buy them instead so I can get some wrapped for shooting trials. For now, I am using a plate stolen from Lee molds.

[uscra112]

Spoil sport.

[DoctorBill]

Buckshot is moving this thread to the "Special Projects" section.

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Thank you Montana Charlie you said it very very well.
Dr. Bill if and when you get around to actually doing some blackpowder paper patching we'll be eagerly awaiting to read your results.

[DoctorBill]

Mr. McDowell - can you phrase a question (or any statement) w/o throwing
an insult in there with the rest of it ?

Were you raised in New York City ?

When this Thread is moved, I personally won't be offended if you never visit it -
ever.

DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Mr. McDowell - can you phrase a question (or any statement) w/o throwing
an insult in there with the rest of it ?

Were you raised in New York City ?

When this Thread is moved, I personally won't be offended if you never visit it -
ever.

DoctorBill

[smilie=f: Would you care to point out the "insult"?[smilie=f:
Nope 3rd generation Wyoming. Don't care much for whiners...
Why thank you I'll be sure and visit it often....:takinWiz:

[Longwood]

Hi Bill
I hope I can converse here without offending a "Whiner" that somehow thinks he "Owns" this section.

I needed a way to shoot my rifles with a healing Clavicle so yesterday, I got to looking at the Caldwell and other rests for idea's.
Any ol how, during the process of making one, I got to thinking about what you said about the lathe being a money pit.
Even making a small project can involve a large number of special tools.
I used several special machinist tools but could have done the job almost as well, but a little bit slower, with much cheaper tools.
I needed my number and letter drill set but got to thinking how I could sometimes get around a problem like that by simply going to a different bolt size or using bolts and nuts instead of threaded holes.
Many of my tools were bought at a yard or garage sales from old women that had no idea what they were worth.
My father was a mechanic that learned machinist work on the job so I have always known good tools when I saw them and bought all I got a good deal on..
These days most boys don't know the difference from a micrometer and a 'C' clamp so good deals are fairly plentiful.

[DoctorBill]

I am a bit confused by what is being said here lately and who is saying it.

Sometimes a thread can go South because of one person changing the
tone with sarcastic, vituperative, needling and provocative comments -
for his own entertainment.

Besides - isn't that behavior contrary to most forum rules and etiquette ?

If these individuals are ignored, they usually go away from boredom - if not...
there is the "Ignore List" in the "User CP".

So - let us continue.

Buckshot sent me his "Care Package" !
Incredible stuff....and a lot of it. Thank you so much, Buckshot !

My Lathe Table is done - except for the electrical boxes and maybe a small
shelf in the back to hold a Lamp and Paper Towel Holder.
It will grow as I use it....

http://www.mynetimages.com/86b08df491.jpg

I plan to set the Lathe on the Aluminum Tray ($10 @ a Restaurant Supply Store)
with the Head Stock in the tray and the right side out under the Apron to catch oil and turnings.
Silicone Calking should keep any oil from going thru the bolt holes.

Going to let the Tailstock end "float" - Gary tells me to just hold the bolts in place,
but not tighten them.
This Lathe is so small, it doesn't need to torqued down, just kept from traveling
due to vibration.

I hope it isn't noisy - my wife works the night shift and is usually sleeping when
I am wanting to do something noisy....

DoctorBill

[R.M.]

Or you could think a different way. Put the tailstock on the tray. There's not much you need to catch from under the headstock.
Your machine and set-up, just something to consider.

[DoctorBill]

R.M. - Yes - maybe you're right.

Once the Lathe is on the table and I can get a good feel for what will occur
as I use it, I will adapt to the situation.

Don't have enough experience yet to make a decision.

Couldn't get a longer tray of that width to fit the entire Lathe.
These are made to fit standard ovens in restaurants. Cheap enough...

Just had a brain flash !
Buy another that's 18" wide and butt it up against the bigger one and
lay a rolled piece of Aluminum over the two edges butted together.
All the "Stuff" will roll off the piece of Aluminum into one or the other trays.
Then any oil will not soak into the table's wood - mostly why I'm doing this.

Edited in Later.....
http://www.mynetimages.com/7c18fda3bf.jpg
I can place them long-short or short-long.....

It will be nice to make my first mold with this Lathe - after I learn how to use it.

DoctorBill

[FrankG]

Just duct tape the two pans together and retape as needed .

Now ya need to ask a couple buddies over for a beer ! An while y'all are visiting ya may well hoist the machine up on bench :)

[DoctorBill]

All my buddies are either my age or older than me.
Gary said he'd help - but he has pins in his back and I'm worried he
might hurt himself. He's old like me, also.

Besides - it is my problem.

Me and my 24 year old son just out of four years in the Coast Guard
will attempt it.
He got a lot of muscles in the CG while floating around in the Pacific.

It should be about 80 lbs between each of us since I took out the 4 jaw chuck,
the Faceplate and the "Tool Box" all of which were heavy...
haven't lifted 80 lbs in quite a while...use the knees and squat !

It is in the basement and there are floor joists above it - wonder if a couple of
pulleys and a rope would do it ? Drill holes in the floor joists and put in some bolts....
if anything failed tho, it would drop and that wouldn't do it any good.

A couple of Pale Ales might make it easier.....

BIG QUESTION - once this bugger is unbolted off the crate bottom, which part of it
is it best to lift it by ? Don't want to damage some part not made to be lifted by....

BTW - I have a roll of Aluminum sheeting, so I got's the Aluminum...to bridge
the two trays.

DoctorBill

[Longwood]

I would put the small pan under the head stock if you are not going to splice them.
Aluminum duct tape is way better than the cloth stuff that gets crappier every year.

[garandsrus]

It's a lot easier to clean the tray out if you can just slide it out from under the lathe. You will Still catch most of the chips and oil.

John

[Buckshot]

..................Well, you're getting there. Once you get started and after making a couple things, you'll make some changes and then will IMPROVE those changes until things fit and work like you want. Maybe you'll get some ideas from a few photo's:

http://www.fototime.com/B42999491991D09/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/24B88C7692DA5B3/standard.jpg

LEFT: My lathe isn't against a wall and I needed a 'backsplash', AND some handy shelves for immediate use type stuff. Since it's an underdrive it's on a steel cabinet with a large 'front pullout' chip pan. The problem is the chip pan weighs too much to be casually pulling out and hauling around empty, let along full of chips :-) So I figured I'd kill a flock of birds at once. I fabbed the backsplash frame up out of some 3/4" elec counduit, then pop rivited the sheet metal to it. It sets in brackets on the back of the original chip pan.

RIGHT: Since it isn't against a wall I had no way to put up a couple small shelves. Again I fabbed up a light framework of 1" sq .060" wall tube, and 3/4" electrical conduit. I then tech screwed a shelf standards to the sq tube uprights and used the plastic coated steel basket shelves. The 5C collet closer is there handy, chuck keys, and a couple drawbars hang through, and the needed oils are handy. Down at the tailstock end on similar shelves is that nasty old dangerous toolpost milling vise, a set of Silver & Deming bits, drill chucks & etc.

http://www.fototime.com/8FF4170825DE41C/standard.jpg

The above might seem kind of goofy at first glance but I'll tell ya it's DARN handy. Simply the back pocket cut out of old jeans and wired up to the shelf over the headstock. You can see the spindle of a 1" mic peeking out of the pocket. A couple slits were cut and in the top one is a machinist's rule and a carbide scribe. Below that, another slit holds the 2 hex wrenches needed for the QC tool holders.

You'll eventually get it all figured out and handy. It takes time to figure out what works and what doesn't.

...............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

I like the old Jean's Pocket - would never have thought of that !

DoctorBill

[longbow]

I wouldn't worry about the naysayers DoctorBill.

You started out successfully making a simple mould then expanded your vision and tooling to allow making more and better moulds and wanted input. Nothing wrong with that. I've enjoyed the thread and hope my input helped. Lots of others participated too.

There are "shooters" who may be very good at shooting but have little interest (or skill) at anything else and there are shooters who are also builders and tinkerers who enjoy making "stuff" to explore other possibilities or just for the simple joy of making it themselves.

In simple terms, why would anyone cast boolits when they can be bought?

Why would anyone invent or reinvent a wildcat cartridge when there are so many choices already out there?

So why on earth would anyone want to make their own mould?

Because they can and have an interest is the answer.

Good on you DoctorBill.

Now back to your lathe.

I am with garandsrus on the sliding out tray. In my case, I thought about a wood table and elected to go with concrete so cast up a slab with stucco wire in it and mounted the lathe to the concrete. I didn't bother with a tray because the concrete cleans up pretty good (I painted it) and I don't use large volumes of cutting oil. Most chips fall just from just right of the chuck unless you are turning long rods so a localized loose tray should do just fine.

A friend of mine who is a very talented precision machinist mounted his lathe on a table very much like yours and he can turn to tenths of a thou repeatably and reliably so I wouldn't be too concerned about changing humidity.

Oh, it occurs to me that I have an article that is quite well written on boring split moulds on a lathe. The authour covers some good info on set up and required accuracy for good boolit moulds. I have it in PDF format I think or maybe Word. I will try to find a link to the site if it is still available or I could e-mail a copy if you want.

I have not gone that route as I am too lazy to set up to mill the handle slots in the mould blocks on my little lathe. If I ever get around to making a T slotted cross slide I may give it a try but I find my push out moulds do just fine for what I want now.

Anyway, carry one and get that lathe up and running! you have some fun times ahead of you.

Longbow

[Longwood]

I would start with some simple and easy projects Bill.
One project you may wish to begin with is a pan-lube cutter.
I saw one here, then in my opinion, redesigned to be better and easier for a new machinist to make.

I am almost finished with my, easy on the shoulder, shooting rest and hope to finish my pull string operating system for the Little Dandy I mounted on my Loadmaster, by this afternoon..
It may end up being electric and automatic with two, Lyman type, knockers to insure accurate drops.
I bought a piece of Lexan tube from my favorite shopping place, ebay, too make a clear drop tube for it.
They get a ridiculous price for something I can make for a couple of bucks.
In my opinion, the automatic measures used on the progressive loaders are completely non reliable if I want better than close-up slingshot accuracy.
Breaks over, back to playing.

It's so easy, a Monkey could do it.

[DoctorBill]

Here is Buckshot's "Care Package" !

http://www.mynetimages.com/ed5b311ef8.jpg

Amazing !

A gentleman and a scholar.

Edited in later - does that steel with Lead in it (12L14) make for a good bullet mold ?
I understand that 12L14 is hard to find...

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I have a BIG question !

Here is the Lathe.
http://www.mynetimages.com/024c116565.jpg

Where (How) does one grab the Headstock end to lift the Lathe off the Pallet without
damaging something ?

The Tailstock end is no problem, but the Headstock end is all sheetmetal box and
levers and such - not made for being lifted by....

If it is by the Chuck - that is packed thick with grease and it rotates !

How does the Factory move them around ?

There are only two bolts in the bed to hold it down - one on each end.
I have removed the Tailstock and the Steady Rest and moved the Apron
all the way to the tailstock end.

I have a Furniture Mover and if I can get it onto that, I can roll it into the house.

http://www.mynetimages.com/4f7a9412bd.jpg

I think I'll drill a hole at the "X" and bolt it down so the bloody thing can't
'roll over' to the side. A real toe crusher, as it were...

DoctorBill

[FrankG]

Why not use dolly to get it where needed ? It is only a couple hundred lbs. When it is next to bench , lift one end and block it up . Then the other end , back and forth till right height and same or little higher than bench . Move one end over then the other .
Thats how my 16x60 1913 Cinn. was lifted , but I had to use jacks .

[Rmfcasey]

Use a comealong hooked to a joist or borrow a cherry picker to lift your lathe. You should use a heavy fabric strap or heavy rope to lift it.
good luck
Rmfcasey

[DoctorBill]

Done !

My son came by and said , "Why not put the pallet on the mover ?" - Lord God !

One gets an idea in one's head and can't see anything else....or not.

Anyway, we picked up the pallet, put it on the dolly, pushed it into the work room
and lifted the Lathe onto the table.

I put a piece of electrical conduit thru the Spindle and we lifted the Lathe by that !
Bent the conduit a little....

http://www.mynetimages.com/5ad0594abd.jpg

Now to locate the holes, drill for them - put the Aluminum Trays down and Walla !

Twern't nothin' !

I'll have this running and make a Vulcan Cannon by next Monday......ya sure ya betcha !

http://www.mynetimages.com/a71a936706.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/01bfc338a3.jpg

http://www.mynetimages.com/34159c8716_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/34159c8716) <--- Click on Thumbnail for this one.

Please to note the Labeling is wrongly in place put (assembly person not English reading).

http://www.mynetimages.com/134b8995dc.jpg

Gary thinks I can pull out those pins with a pliers and rotate the label.
But I think it is funny left that way !

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

.................Did you get a 4 jaw chuck and a faceplate?

Those pins holding the upside down plate on (that's SOME QC inspection, eh? :-)) are most likely drive rivits. Probably have to drill them out to remove & revolve the plate.

One thing you can use that 7/8" OD piece of HSS for is to check the TIR of your 3 jaw chuck.

..............Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

I have cleaned off almost all the grease from everything - except the leadscrew !
Wiped with Kleenex - love that stuff for cleaning up ! Cheap and nice to use.

Ouch...how do you get the grease off of that Leadscrew ?

One other thing -the Chinese surely don't like to debur the edges of anything !
All along the rails on the inside underneath it is rough and sharp.

Gary tells me to use a small file and relieve the edges under there.

http://www.mynetimages.com/b97871860b.jpg

Yes - I got a four jaw chuck (FJC) and a faceplate !
The FJC will have to go back - defective - E-Mailed Customer Service this evening.
http://www.mynetimages.com/2c26595323_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/2c26595323) <--Click (Thumbnail)
Two of the four holes are that way.
Gary offered to fix it on his Milling Machine, but - Lord ! What Quality Assurance ! Give me a break !
I sure would hope that not all of their FJC's came out that way !

Buckshot - you're using abbreviated jargon !
I had to go onto Google and look up TIR....
I'll check it with my magnetic clamp and dial indicator I got at HF.

Bed time for Bonzo....lost an hour's sleep ! Daylight Savings....g'night all !

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

Getting kinda jealous here.....

[Longwood]

Cut all but about 1/2" of the bristles off of a cheap paint or about 3/4' on a parts cleaning brush from the auto parts store.
One like is hanging by the jeans pocket.
I use brake cleaner by the case.

It looks like Buckshot pretty well took care of you, tool wise so I will send a little bit of material you can experiment with.
It comes from a friend that makes aerospace and military parts so you can tell folks your stuff is made from space age material.
Beer cans are also but don't tell em that.[smilie=l:

[longbow]

Well look at that! I looked up my old article on making split moulds and found that it is on-line here of all places (whoda thunk it?):

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/homemoldmake.shtml

He talks of using a milling machine but I have milled using a milling cutter in the spindle and blocks held in a vertical top slide (which isn't terribly rigid). A T slotted cross slide with angle plates would be far better.

If you plan on continuing with push out type moulds, you have all you need in a lathe. Though a drill press would be a help as well.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

I have just found out why we need a splash guard around the Chuck area !

Now there is a line of oil splashed up on the wall behind the Lathe !
From maybe 30 seconds of running time to see if the motor works.

http://www.mynetimages.com/74630cfa7b.jpg

Maybe I can fabricate a 'Splash Guard' out of this plastic bottle from those
addictive Cheese Corn Puff Balls that one can't just eat one of....

Had to take the Tailstock completely apart.
This thing is like an old Military Surplus Rifle - you have to take it down to the
component parts where you find dirt or corrosion on odd components.
A Black Powder seems to be in everything. No idea what that is from or what it is...

The Tailstock 'Ram' was greased on what protruded, but had a patina of RUST
on the internal sliding portion ! Had to Steel Wool that and rub the rust out
of the inside of the Tailstock Body.
I find rust layers where they assembled parts w/o oiling them !
I oil everything !
Oxygen is everywhere and so rust can be there, too !

DoctorBill

[uscra112]

Just for ideas, here's how they did it on my little Prazi bench lathe.

Note the long stud above and to the rear of the chuck:

Truth is I don't use it often. It gets in the way. The chuck will fling any loose oil or grease off in the first few seconds. After that's gone, it's not a problem.

[uscra112]

The wooden box behind the machine covers my replacement motor. The original was inside the headstock, but it died. I used its' housing and bearings to support a jackshaft from the motor that's under the box.

[DoctorBill]

Man the JARGON is flying fast around me !

Jackshaft....?

Got a whole new bunch of jargon to learn.

I have a question:

Why did the Chinese give me a larger Dead Center (DC) ?
The 2 MT DC fits the Tailstock as does Buckshot's Chuck Taper.
Is that a 3 MT DC or larger ? What is it for - what does it fit into ?

The Drill Chuck Taper only goes in if I extrude the RAM a half inch - is that normal ?

What is that SMELL when one cleans new machinery ?
What kind of oil or grease do they use ? Has a distinctive odor !

http://www.mynetimages.com/1cc3c18160.jpg

The two wrenches must have come directly out of the Sand Mold !
I'll go to the Pawn Shop and pick up two 'good ones'.....
Pawn Shops are a great place to get nice tools cheap !

Lot to learn here....

Cross Slide Disassembled - Needs cleaned.

http://www.mynetimages.com/9b9225b115.jpg

DoctorBill

[heathydee]

The large dead centre fits the headstock taper which can be accessed once the chuck is removed . It is for turning between centres .

[uscra112]

Machinists are just like doctors and lawyers - we use jargon to keep the general public unaware of how litttle we actually know. 8-)

Yes, the tailstock quill has to be extended to get the drill chuck to seat. And to get it to unseat you back it up until it bumps free.

You're gonna get a raft of suggestions about how to lube those cross slide ways when you put it back together. Fact is, ordinary 30W motor oil will do as well as anything.

[DoctorBill]

OK - I had seen Gary put a Chuck Taper into his Tailstock, but I didn't "look" very well.

If you don't know what to look for, you don't see things happening right there
in front of you.
The Story of Science.

Anti-Gravity is probably staring us in the face right now....just don't see it.

I am lubing everything with Red ATF (DEXRON II).
All is working better after cleaning out the old (?) grease and that black powder
that is everywhere.
Probably Ground Iron Dust from the Factory.

I have the Tool Post Cross Slide off and cleaned, but can't seem to get the GIB
to adjust so there is no binding.
Probably a secret method known only to ancient machinists from beyond the
'Great Wall of Knowledge'.
I'll have to visit there and learn Gib Adjustment in 'Machining for Morons'.

Once clean, I will check for the infamous TIR....have to grade a Lab right now.

DoctorBill

[uscra112]

Oh, and the black powder? It's probably graphite. Machining cast iron liberates vast amounts of the stuff. They may not have bothered to clean it up.

Adjusting that gib: I think I see three screws on the side of the cross slide. Set them all loose on assembly. Center the cross slide and run the center screw down until it seems finger tight, then back off half a turn or so. Work the slide back and forth, turning the screw back in bit by bit until it just starts to drag. Back off a smidgeon. (More jargon.) Now adjust the one toward the back, working the slide as you do so. Then the one toward the front. Sometimes you may have to fiddle the ones you already adjusted to get the slide loose enough to move freely. You probably will not get it smooth through the whole travel. Don't worry about it - the slide will have to wear in. You will readjust the gib screws 4 or 5 times in the first six months. These low-cost machines are never hand-fitted (scraped) the way we did when rebuilding big machines like Monarchs and DeVliegs. Heck, even expensive industrial machines aren't scraped anymore. Scraping is another lost art, more's the pity.

Brain teaser involving scraping - how do you make a perfectly flat iron plate with no tools other than red and blue artist oil paint, thinned to the consistency of heavy cream, and a scraper? This in one of the fundamental principles of mechanical precision.

[Longwood]

Some style gibs can go in several ways and only work one.
If it has the type with several screws, make sure you get the little recesses for the screws oriented correctly.