Review of 22LR to 224 Kaine Dies by DanR

[xfoxofshogo]

This thread is for the posting of results .
I'm happy with the dies and how they work i post some pic of what i did with them so far

this is my derim cases AKA jackets http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e3a1971492c5.jpg

a bout 30 mints worth waiting to be size http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e3a19716f41b.jpg

some all set to load http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e3a197193a1b.jpg http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e3a1ab76fc4c.jpg yes the long one is a full 22mag not sher i will soot it just was playing with the dies.
I made some FMJ their to the far left
o and the funky one was one i flip and reswage just to see what it look like
i will get out and shoot some as soon as i get my powder shipping being slow

[newcastter]

Did you have to anneal the brass at any point in the process?

[sargenv]

I hope to soon get the dies he sent... and then I'll be spending some of my short amount of time cranking a few of these out.. I can hardly wait! :)

[0verkill]

What is the diameter of the meplat?

[xfoxofshogo]

Did you have to anneal the brass at any point in the process?

yes anneal the brass was the first thing i did even before cleaning them and they derim a lot better if you do

i clean after anneal the brass and 2 time after derim that way the dies stay clean
if you do a cleaning after anneal the brass theirs less to make the brass get stuck on the derim punch

o and i did some out of brass tubing last night its thick tubing and made some relay nice looking bluets

[kombayotch]

The meplat is the tip of the bullet, it's where the ogive comes to a point.

[xfoxofshogo]

The meplat is the tip of the bullet, it's where the ogive comes to a point.

the Meplat its what ever you want it to bee

[Mountain Prepper]

the Meplat its what ever you want it to bee

Unless there is a separate point forming die it will be the same size as the orifice of the ejector punch hole.

Do the dies have a point forming punch?

If it does then the point could be sharp or round depending on the amount of lead exposed and the pressure before deformation.

[ibgp3]

[smilie=w:
Hope to have some dies next week and post pictures shortly after that.
:bigsmyl2:

(couldn't figure out how to subscribe without a post)

[xfoxofshogo]

Unless there is a separate point forming die it will be the same size as the orifice of the ejector punch hole.

Do the dies have a point forming punch?

If it does then the point could be sharp or round depending on the amount of lead exposed and the pressure before deformation.

oooo you whant to know if thay can be sharp out of the die no but its not hard to do and the ejector size is 0.102 so i guss its close to this for the brass will get smaller i will post a pic of a point after forming with no lead tip

[ibgp3]

I want to know what the bullet weighed that you made with a full 22 mag case.
Spear chunking might come back into style!!

[xfoxofshogo]

sorry my pic up close get fuzzy bit lead you can get pointy the brass gets hard to get it so small the smallest is this one i have done with out a point form punch http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e3af6af38685.jpghttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e3af6af98193.jpg

[sargenv]

I must be mensa material then.. my work area is immensely crowded.. some would say downright messy... (my wife included).. I received my die set today but am bummed that I don't have the time atm to get some bullets made up.. maybe tomorrow or this weekend..

I feel like a kid in a candy store!! lol

[danr]

my work area is not messy.. its crammed.. i know exactly where everything is.. and everything has its own spot.. though, my wife says its messy as well..

i keep saying to the wife, its not a mess, its my arrangement system!

:)
dan

[sargenv]

its my arrangement system!

I'll have to use that line :D

[sargenv]

I have found the Rem brass less that accomodating, but the Winchester (super X), Federal (F), and CCI (C) brass all are good when annealed and the rim taken off. The lube that Dan sent was semi liquid when it sat in my garage, so I used some 75/25 lanolin/castor oil I made up for swaging the larger 9mm into 40 cal swaged stuff using BT's dies.. That worked a bit better.. I have to drill out the Lee mold maybe tomorrow so I can get some cores made and cut.. little by little I am getting closer.. :)

[Utah Shooter]

Yeah the CCi's ring up at 9.5 every time I weigh them. I am sticking with those.

[xfoxofshogo]

I want to know what the bullet weighed that you made with a full 22 mag case.
Spear chunking might come back into style!!

the 22 mag one is right at 117.3 gr and still have a nuff room to add 15 gr to it

[xfoxofshogo]

o just to let you all know I'm not using that lube swage lube stuff i did and it works but i like this other stuff

I'm using some rcbs case lube-2 it is water soluble so you can wash it right off not telling you to use it but it is what works for me its 4 buck for 2oz buy the way

[Utah Shooter]

o just to let you all know I'm not using that lube swage lube stuff i did and it works but i like this other stuff

I'm using some rcbs case lube-2 it is water soluble so you can wash it right off not telling you to use it but it is what works for me its 4 buck for 2oz buy the way

????

I am lost.

[Buckshot]

????

I am lost.

Oh, just to let you all know, I'm not using that lube swage lube stuff. I did, and it works but I like this other stuff.

I'm using some RCBS Case Lube 2. It is water soluble so you can wash it right off. I'm not telling you to use it, but it is what works for me. It's 4 bucks for 2 oz's by the way.

Don't know if it helps or not, but this is what I get. Hope it helps [smilie=s:

................Buckshot

[Utah Shooter]

Oh, just to let you all know, I'm not using that lube swage lube stuff. I did, and it works but I like this other stuff.

I'm using some RCBS Case Lube 2. It is water soluble so you can wash it right off. I'm not telling you to use it, but it is what works for me. It's 4 bucks for 2 oz's by the way.

Don't know if it helps or not, but this is what I get. Hope it helps [smilie=s:

................Buckshot

Well I did not mean it like that.

I was just curious as to what he was using before the RCBS. I used some RCBS tonight to squirt some lead and it worked really well.

[danr]

he is allergic to castor oil. so the supplied swage lube wasn't compatible with his medical needs.

the rcbs case lube seems to work out well.. so i'll support it..

:)
dan

[MIBULLETS]

The case lube will probably work fine in this application, but generally it isn't as good for the higher pressures on swaging some of the larger rifle bullets. I had also heard of people using STP and being quite happy with it, never tried it myself though. It is water soluble though.

[pcarpenter]

I don't want to take this too far adrift, but speaking of swaging lube...

I've made myself some of the 50-50 castor oil and lanolin stuff and it works...plenty sticky though. I do know you want to stay away from the petroleum based stuff due to dieseling at high pressures created during swaging. The RCBS stuff mentioned is likely not petroleum based if it's water cleanup so it should be OK if it lubricates properly at pressure.

What I really wondered was if anyone has used Lee's case resizing lube for bullet swaging. It's wax based and is repackaged stuff used in the deep-drawing die industry. I don't use it for case sizing so am looking for a good use for it. Hmmm...nevermind. Just walked into my loading room and found the old tube...The tube itself cracked and split open and it rattle's like a snake's tail.

Anyway, the reason it could be handy is that I used to dilute it in alcohol to make a watery stuff that you could dip cases in and then it quickly flash-dried to a waxy film. Could be a lot easier than working with oily hands and you could lube cases (for making jackets) in batches by dropping them all in and then draining them. It cleans off with a quick wash of more of your favorite solvent after use, too.

Paul

[xfoxofshogo]

the rcbs lube I'm using is thick

[ReloaderFred]

I've used Imperial Sizing Die Wax for making .429 bullets in C-H dies, but finally settled on Winchester Spray Case Lube, which is simply Midway's brand of case lube under a different label. Midway closed it out a couple of years ago and I bought 6 bottles of it. The Imperial was slow to use and I needed to speed the process up.

It's easier for me to just put my jackets in a gallon Zip Lock bag and give them a couple of squirts and jostle the bag around a bit to evenly spread the lube. It works well. To clean them after swaging, I spray them with Simple Green and rinse, then they go in the citric acid bath to remove the tarnish from annealing. Then into the tumbler with some ground corn cob and they come out shining better than factory bullets.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Utah Shooter]

I've used Imperial Sizing Die Wax for making .429 bullets in C-H dies, but finally settled on Winchester Spray Case Lube, which is simply Midway's brand of case lube under a different label. Midway closed it out a couple of years ago and I bought 6 bottles of it. The Imperial was slow to use and I needed to speed the process up.

It's easier for me to just put my jackets in a gallon Zip Lock bag and give them a couple of squirts and jostle the bag around a bit to evenly spread the lube. It works well. To clean them after swaging, I spray them with Simple Green and rinse, then they go in the citric acid bath to remove the tarnish from annealing. Then into the tumbler with some ground corn cob and they come out shining better than factory bullets.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Yeah we used that last week too. worked pretty good.

[0verkill]

I don't want to take this too far adrift, but speaking of swaging lube...

I've made myself some of the 50-50 castor oil and lanolin stuff and it works...plenty sticky though. I do know you want to stay away from the petroleum based stuff due to dieseling at high pressures created during swaging. The RCBS stuff mentioned is likely not petroleum based if it's water cleanup so it should be OK if it lubricates properly at pressure.

What I really wondered was if anyone has used Lee's case resizing lube for bullet swaging. It's wax based and is repackaged stuff used in the deep-drawing die industry. I don't use it for case sizing so am looking for a good use for it. Hmmm...nevermind. Just walked into my loading room and found the old tube...The tube itself cracked and split open and it rattle's like a snake's tail.

Anyway, the reason it could be handy is that I used to dilute it in alcohol to make a watery stuff that you could dip cases in and then it quickly flash-dried to a waxy film. Could be a lot easier than working with oily hands and you could lube cases (for making jackets) in batches by dropping them all in and then draining them. It cleans off with a quick wash of more of your favorite solvent after use, too.

Paul

You could drop the dried clump of lube in a pint jar full of alcohol for a few days and see if it dissolves. If it doesn't you're only out fifty cents or so. I wonder if it would do good as a swage lube since I already keep it around.

[MightyThor]

I posted my initial results on the other thread but I will move to this thread for all of my subsequent results.

I made a test batch by using 25 federal cases. I annealed them using a propane torch. They measured .225 before and after annealing.

I then ran them through the De-rim die. 19 of the cases stuck on the punch and had to be removed with pliers. those that did not stick on the punch were not immediately ejected from the die, and only three of those in the die came out undamaged buy the push through process. I was left with 11 useable jackets. They measured .222

I had core blanks that weighed 45 grains. the Core die in this set does not allow you to adjust weight by the swaging process. There are no bleed holes so you can shape the core but not reduce the weight. The cores come out of my die at .200 These cores are a snug fit in the jackets and must be inserted by hand. I mention this because I have a vibratory jig that allows me to shake cores into jackets 100 at a time. that will not work with this die set, the fit is too tight.

After the cores were seated in the jacket the bullet blank weighed 55 grains and was .225

After pointing the bullets measured .229

After pushing them through the final size die the bullets were .223

By comparison, my other die sets produce components sized as follows:

Fired case. .225
De-rimmed .219
Core .191
seated .223
Pointed .224
There is no final re-size of the pointed bullet.

One thought that I had when using this set is that perhaps some time, material, and money might be saved by redesigning the two push through sizing dies so that the sizing function is done by an insert that fits inside a single, holder die. This would save on materials and you should be able to use the same holder for the 243 cal stuff thus making the savings even greater over the long term. I have a de-rim die that uses this system and it works very well.

[danr]

I posted my initial results on the other thread but I will move to this thread for all of my subsequent results.

I made a test batch by using 25 federal cases. I annealed them using a propane torch. They measured .225 before and after annealing.

I then ran them through the De-rim die. 19 of the cases stuck on the punch and had to be removed with pliers. those that did not stick on the punch were not immediately ejected from the die, and only three of those in the die came out undamaged buy the push through process. I was left with 11 useable jackets. They measured .222

I had core blanks that weighed 45 grains. the Core die in this set does not allow you to adjust weight by the swaging process. There are no bleed holes so you can shape the core but not reduce the weight. The cores come out of my die at .200 These cores are a snug fit in the jackets and must be inserted by hand. I mention this because I have a vibratory jig that allows me to shake cores into jackets 100 at a time. that will not work with this die set, the fit is too tight.

After the cores were seated in the jacket the bullet blank weighed 55 grains and was .225

After pointing the bullets measured .229

After pushing them through the final size die the bullets were .223

By comparison, my other die sets produce components sized as follows:

Fired case. .225
De-rimmed .219
Core .191
seated .223
Pointed .224
There is no final re-size of the pointed bullet.

One thought that I had when using this set is that perhaps some time, material, and money might be saved by redesigning the two push through sizing dies so that the sizing function is done by an insert that fits inside a single, holder die. This would save on materials and you should be able to use the same holder for the 243 cal stuff thus making the savings even greater over the long term. I have a de-rim die that uses this system and it works very well.

hello mightythor,
thank you for your review.. did i read that your core swage didn't have a bleed hole? i personaly tested your set of dies, and there was a bleed hole when it was tested. can you take another close look? perhaps the bleed hole is filled with lead making it hard to see.

it should be 1.29 from the top of the die along the side between the threads.
if you held both of the dies that have black "top punches" with a shinny nut on the top, and look at them from the bottom, the smaller cavity one would be the core swage die.

it should have a bleed hole that match to the very start of the ejector.

if you still cannot find the bleed hole and you believe it doesn't have one after checking, it would be considered by myself as a poor quality or poor construction of the die.. i will ship you a new one asap from free.

i do not know how this could have happened with my quality assurance steps that i currently have. if a bleed hole wasn't present during testing and tuning of your dies, it would have been noticed. all tests are done with JUST your set, and i do not substute anything while testing. only raw uncupped rimfires and cores are used during testing.

let me know what you find.
Thanks
Dan

[Utah Shooter]

One thought that I had when using this set is that perhaps some time, material, and money might be saved by redesigning the two push through sizing dies so that the sizing function is done by an insert that fits inside a single, holder die. This would save on materials and you should be able to use the same holder for the 243 cal stuff thus making the savings even greater over the long term. I have a de-rim die that uses this system and it works very well.

Yeah my one of my Corbin de rim dies has an insert like that. I never thought that it could be used to put in a different insert. That is a pretty good idea.

[xfoxofshogo]

ther is a brake in point for the dies i hade a hard time at frist till i did a bout a 100-200 then it got realy ezy

[danr]

you can speed up the break in process by using "All Metal Polish" by Meguiars, found at most autoparts stores for polishing MAG rims.

use it as a lube for a fiew bullets, Watch the sizes of the bullets as you do this, best to check each one as you use the polish.. little by little, the polish will further smooth out the dies, and help break them in.. after using the polish for a fiew bullets, use a cotton swab and clean out the polish, then switch back to using normal swage lube.

you'll notice things are a little easier work.

but it should be noted, that doing this will change the die cavities slightly.. but this is the point of doing it.. so be sure to watch the bullet sizes.. if you notice a size change, discontenue using the polish, and allow the dies to break in as normal.

thanks,
dan

[Bollocks]

Hi Gents,

Just FWIW, I use Dillon case lube for all my swaging operations (Corbin and CH4D dies). It contains Lanolin and work as desired for me. Imperial wax was a bit too thick.

Chrs from Holland,
BolloX

[sargenv]

I believe the Dillon lube uses the non-anhydrous lanolin as it's base.. this is the type you can find at some markets that cater to people who make up their own cosmetics and emolients. Whole foods sells a 4 oz bottle of Lanolin that can be thinned with alcohol to get to the consistency of the Dillon lube.. Most of the people who use Lanolin for bullet forming and swaging choose to use anhydrous Lanolin, in other words, it is thicker and has little to no water.

[Bollocks]

@ Sargenv

Is there any harm in using the non-anhydrous Lanolin type?

Rgds,
BolloX

[danr]

there are two types of lanolin. the anhydrous lable means "WATER" non-anhydrous means "No Water"

you can pick up the Non-Anhydrous at places like walmart, they carry it in the babby section for Breast feeding mothers.. its babby safe.

the Anhydrous version is watered down.. many people have used it to make Spray on swage or reloading lube out of it, and it works pretty well. you can find it at health foods stores.

:)
dan

[GRUMPA]

Or just get it from one of the vendor sponsors here on the board.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=96820
Don't know about price comparison between him and one of those box stores, but his service is second to non. Got some of that in with other stuff from him and talk about thick stuff, it sticks to almost anything it comes in contact with. Hope it helps

[BT Sniper]

there are two types of lanolin. the anhydrous lable means "WATER" non-anhydrous means "No Water"

you can pick up the Non-Anhydrous at places like walmart, they carry it in the babby section for Breast feeding mothers.. its babby safe.

the Anhydrous version is watered down.. many people have used it to make Spray on swage or reloading lube out of it, and it works pretty well. you can find it at health foods stores.

:)
dan


You got it backwords there Dan. Better look into it a bit more.

Anhydrous: As a general term, a substance is said to be anhydrous if it contains no water.

Above statment was copied from wikipedia

BT

[pcarpenter]

Anhydrous lanolin (no water) leaves no concerns with die corrosion so it's probably a better choice...and probably a better lubricant as well. I already forgot the fellow's name but a member here at castboolits is selling it and a good number of other bullet lube components at *really* (as compared to the pharmacy I tried locally) good prices. I think a pound of anhydrous lanolin was like $8. Just search on "lanolin" or "bee's wax" and you should find him in the vendor sponsors as I recall.

That having been said, I have found that lanolin really turns gummy over time so I like cleaning it off my dies etc. and lubing them with something else for storage, anyway.

Paul

[danr]

You got it backwords there Dan. Better look into it a bit more.

Anhydrous: As a general term, a substance is said to be anhydrous if it contains no water.

Above statment was copied from wikipedia

BT

oops.. thanks for the correction.

[xfoxofshogo]

just to remind all this is the review pages for the dies not lube lol :hijack:

[sargenv]

Yep, thread jacked it was.. and I plan to soon start swaging my danr 22lr into 224 bullets.. as soon as I can get my core mold drilled and a few cores cranked out..

[newcastter]

Just got my set in the mail today after I get some cores I will be posting my results w/paper a target that is. FYI everything looks great (firstclass) so we shall see

[NSP64]

Got my set yesturday. Read instructions.looked at parts.
All looked good.
Loaded the dies into my lyman turret press, smashed my first bullet at 3:30 am before I left for work. Will smaash some more tonight then shoot some tomorrow.

[xfoxofshogo]

grate to hear i shot some did great but I'm still waiting on my new scope to come in i strip a screw on the old one stay a way form the old tasco scopes the new ones are Bushnell now so their OK

i will get my test shoot done as soon as it comes in and get it post

[sargenv]

I cast about 100 cores.. so now I get to figure out how to use the core cutter I bought from a member here... and then I shall be on my way... (maybe I should be soaking those jackets.. hmmm)..

[newcastter]

Awesome thats fast...
I am still working on a adjustable mold but cant wait to be up and running

[MightyThor]

I cast about 100 cores.. so now I get to figure out how to use the core cutter I bought from a member here... and then I shall be on my way... (maybe I should be soaking those jackets.. hmmm)..

Why would you be cutting cores that you have already created? The Core swage die is used to create a uniform core from a chunk of lead. Usually a cutter is used to make cores from lead wire. Casting is the alternative.

[sargenv]

Um, need them in the range of... 45 gr, cores were dropping at about 70.. I was a bit too generous with the drill bit.. I didn't bother using the core cutter and went straight for the wire cutters and scale..

[MightyThor]

Got it. Halvsies. That would be a lot to run through the bleed hole on the core die.

[0verkill]

I wonder if it would be more trouble to cast cores the right size, or cast cores heavy enough to get two out of and cut them in half?

[danr]

i have two molds one does right around 60 grain cores, and another does 120 grain cores.. the 120's i cut in half.. more and more, i find my self casting the 120's over the 60's.. just so i have more of an option for cores.. i wasn't stuck with only being able to make 60 grain bullets or less..

also, i've found that the core die makes a better core if your bleeding off lead, as opposed to just using the core die to shape the core.

:)
dan

[xfoxofshogo]

ok so i mod a press im still tuneing it but it works for me so i do not have to hammer on stuff
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e46e930ca87d.jpg
well 2 press

[danr]

wow xfox.. thats an interesting setup.

[ibgp3]

Is that a Lee handpress threaded onto the exposed part of the die?
[smilie=w:
Genius!!

[MightyThor]

Seriously? Your using the hand press to swage and the bench mounted press to eject? Dude, I was born in the dark, but it wasn't last night. Nice joke though.

[ibgp3]

Looks like the other way around to me Thor, hand press to replace the hammer.

Ooops, Thor's right.

Huh???

[danr]

humm.. xfox, shouldn't it be the other way around? doing the swage on the top will put too much pressure on the die and on your bottom press threads. flip things over bro.

:)
dan

[Utah Shooter]

Looks to me as though he is using the top press just as an ejecting system. Odd looking but I bet it works.

[danr]

Looks to me as though he is using the top press just as an ejecting system. Odd looking but I bet it works.

if you look close, you'll see the die is upside down and the ejector punch is pointing downward.

[Utah Shooter]

Oh. Well he ought to just flip it over and have the top doing the ejecting.

[danr]

Oh. Well he ought to just flip it over and have the top doing the ejecting.

maybe its just the way he had it when he took the pic..

i think he'll be online little later today.

:)
dan

[xfoxofshogo]

lol i did tri to swage this way it work but not to good i was testing lol
i ment to post the outher pic that hade it the right way lol

[xfoxofshogo]

here a pic of it all modding done the handle did not have much of a cam to it so i built a new one and its out of the way and i cut off part of the other bit of handle that did not let me just screw it on its alto beater now

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754e49816c2652e.jpg

and i can still use it as a press win i put the other handle back on

[MightyThor]

Bought a Lee sizing die and ran some of my .229 bullets through it rather than through Dan's die. Bullets came out at .224.

[MightyThor]

Looks like the other way around to me Thor, hand press to replace the hammer.

Ooops, Thor's right.

Huh???

Thor does not approve of replacing the hammer, but in this case, since I was right, do I get a free pointing die?

[danr]

Bought a Lee sizing die and ran some of my .229 bullets through it rather than through Dan's die. Bullets came out at .224.

that is suprising. but if it works.. i say go for it.

usualy, the bullets have a .001 spring back. i have a lee .224 sizing die, and they always tend to come out at .225, this could be due to the alloy of lead i'm using.
so be aware, it could change depending on the lead batch you use..

i also have lee custom .223, .222, and .221 sizing dies.

always spot check the bullet size as if it was a load.

:)
dan

[NSP64]

Got to the range sunday.. load was H 4895 24.0 gr in.wcc 09 millitry brass. Tula sr primers. Mixed HS lr cases. Soft point style using smashed pure lead wire.
Results:
2652 fps from 16" S&W mp15. 1/8 twist. Cloverleaf @ 50 yrds.
2615 fps from 16" , 1/7 twist . Bullets came apart in flight. Never hit 50 yrd target. Did hit target @ 25 yrds. Tore ragged hole in paper size of a quarter. Dont know if it was the gun or just pushed too fast.
All in all , a good time.

[danr]

Got to the range sunday.. load was H 4895 24.0 gr in.wcc 09 millitry brass. Tula sr primers. Mixed HS lr cases. Soft point style using smashed pure lead wire.
Results:
2652 fps from 16" S&W mp15. 1/8 twist. Cloverleaf @ 50 yrds.
2615 fps from 16" , 1/7 twist . Bullets came apart in flight. Never hit 50 yrd target. Did hit target @ 25 yrds. Tore ragged hole in paper size of a quarter. Dont know if it was the gun or just pushed too fast.
All in all , a good time.

1/7 failed to stablize the bullet.. thats interesting.

what weight bullet did you shoot?

thanks,
dan

[NSP64]

62 gr bullets.
Rifle has a rough spot in the barrel where the gas port was drilled. May have been cutting the jackets. I have a bunch of fmjs to shoot down it to smooth it up some. It only has 20 rounds through it.

[danr]

62 gr bullets.
Rifle has a rough spot in the barrel where the gas port was drilled. May have been cutting the jackets. I have a bunch of fmjs to shoot down it to smooth it up some. It only has 20 rounds through it.

that is possible. if it contenues to do that, you could try the copper tubing rounds and see if they do it. due to the thicker jacket, the copper tubing bullets may not come apart.

:)
dan

[NSP64]

I am going to get a chop saw and try some 22 mag jackets to see.

[MIBULLETS]

Could be the 1/7 twist or bore not as smooth or both. Probably the bore though. If the rough spot is big enough that you notice it, the bullet definately will and the jacket on these bullets are not very thick.

[rugerglocker]

I would be interested in results from a 1/7 twist, as I also have one. Would like to know if the bullets will "over-stabilize" (spin too fast) and come apart due to faster twist. Thanks

[Utah Shooter]

I saw nothing like this with 55 HP's in a 1:8. I would assume if you are shooting 62 it would be fine.

[pcarpenter]

It certainly is true that a bullet can be spun faster than necessary to stabilize it and that can result in somewhat reduced accuracy. On the other hand, it's the jacket thickness and it's adhesion to the core that determines whether this rate of twist (really the speed at which the bullet is spun) will cause the bullets to shed their jacket. Of course there are other factors like rough bores. Still, I don't think the OP was in any way overboard at those low velocities. The fast twist may mean that the thin jacketed bullets have to be shot *really* slow, though.

If jackets are a certain thickness and being shot in a 1 in7 twist barrel that causes them to shed, then all other things being equal a heavier bullet won't change that, unless that heavier bullet is shot at a lower velocity.

We tend to tie bullet weights to certain rates of twist. If you look at the Greenhill formula, it's really the bullets length (actually a ratio of it's length to diameter) that requires a certain rotational velocity to get it to stabilize. Kind of makes sense if you think about it: The longer and thinner it is, the more likely it is to wobble along it's length. We all tend to equate certain bullet weights with a certain twist rate, but if a bullet design puts most of it's weight in a shorter portion of the bullet, often we can get by with a longer bullet than the conventional wisdom will allow. At less than 2800 fps, a 1 in 7 twist barrel will stabilize a 1" long .224 bullet (by formula) which is pretty darned long for caliber (over 4 times caliber). That's probably more twist than ideal for these thin jackets.

[Bollocks]

Hi,

No problems with .224-22lr jacket bullets (Corbin dies) in my 1/7 Colt 16 inch barrel (chromelined). I tend to keep the throttle back a little at 2900 fps.

Over the years I have come to believe that rough bores and/or high, sharp lands combined with fast twistrates and high speeds are the deciding factors in bullets (with thin jackets) spinning apart in flight.

Chrs from Holland,
BolloX

[ibgp3]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6088/6054249537_c843be18d4.jpg
Using the black bottom punch as a mandrel and a $6 tubing cutter to shorten a 22mag case.

[danr]

not the best idea because you'll dull out the tubing cutter real fast that way.
also the cutter blade maybe just a little harder than the punch, so it could score the punch enough to where it changes the shape of it and or weakens it.

but, heck, they are only $10, when you need another one, let me know!

i've used a steel drill rod as a mandril, attached one end to my electric drill, then went at it with a tubing cutter. for $10, you can get a long drill rod to make 5 or 10 mandrills.

:)
dan

[xfoxofshogo]

62 gr bullets.
Rifle has a rough spot in the barrel where the gas port was drilled. May have been cutting the jackets. I have a bunch of fmjs to shoot down it to smooth it up some. It only has 20 rounds through it.

ya i would smooth it up some my AR15 1-8 twist win i got it Had the same thing and bluets i found Had big cuts in them form it this will cut a 22jackit and let it tumble

[NSP64]

Cut a couple of .17 cal cases, used a home made mandrel and derimed, smashed my lead wire into them and formed a point on them.
This may be the thing to do all the time. The case had less springback. Point forming they came out at .227(instead of .228 that I was getting with LR cases). So I used the sizing/derim die and they came out .222. Switched over to my lee push through sizer and got .2235.
I will shoot some this weekend to see if they get cut.

[ibgp3]

not the best idea because you'll dull out the tubing cutter real fast that way.
also the cutter blade maybe just a little harder than the punch, so it could score the punch enough to where it changes the shape of it and or weakens it.

but, heck, they are only $10, when you need another one, let me know!

i've used a steel drill rod as a mandril, attached one end to my electric drill, then went at it with a tubing cutter. for $10, you can get a long drill rod to make 5 or 10 mandrills.

:)
dan

I thought I was being very careful, and I figured the only thing at risk was the cutting wheel.
I figured that if I dulled the cutting wheel enough I could use it to put cannelures on bullets.
I looked at the punch, and sure enough there are some fine lines. I worked it over good with steel wool and it seems to be better than new.
I looked at some 5.6mm drill bits yesterday and decided that I didn't need them. I'll pick some up next trip.
:oops: GP

[kombayotch]

Look into making a jacket trimmer, it's way quicker.
http://www.corbins.com/et-1.htm

You could probably just make a tapered punch that could be used with the core seating die if it has a sharp edge.

[ibgp3]

Look into making a jacket trimmer, it's way quicker.
http://www.corbins.com/et-1.htm

You could probably just make a tapered punch that could be used with the core seating die if it has a sharp edge.

Nothing quick about using the tubing cutter, But I'm still experimenting, and quick is not needed; Yet.

[danr]

an update from Echo4Wiskey from ammosmith who purchased a set of dies from me.
i thought i would share this with everyone here.



Just an update on .224 went out and shot the 30 or so rounds that i had made up used a ar-15 20 inch bb with scope 100 yrds i was getting 3/4 inch groups with the 62 g rounds i made up.55 g 1 broke up in flight others ok still with in the 3/4 in mark. 55g i was worried about with not having lead all the way to the end of the jacket with 22lr jackets so got what i expectd but i have made some up with tubing I think they should do better. if not ill find something to put in as a point to keep it from happing again.I am pretty much happy as can be with them. i bought a core mold to make the process faster so ill update again later. Great job danr. :biggrin:

[NSP64]

Got my chop saw from HF today. Got a sonic cleaner the other day. Will be loading and shooting this weekend.
danr , what was the twist rate and velocity was ammosmith using?

[danr]

Got my chop saw from HF today. Got a sonic cleaner the other day. Will be loading and shooting this weekend.
danr , what was the twist rate and velocity was ammosmith using?

not sure.. i can ask.. i'm assuming a 1:8.. but i could be wrong.

[echo4wiskey]

I was using a 1/8 twist in a 20 inch bull barl.. DPMS made for the test on the rounds made up. They shot well glad to see 3/4 groups right where i placed the cross hairs.:drinks: Dan thanx again and still need the black punch but wife has put a hold on my spending lol cant blame her 2000 worth in reloading in the past two months so i am reloading a bunch and will make some cores so i can swage some too. oh a do it fienesse drop wieght mold has 8 sizes and 4 of them will work to make cores for .224 2 can be used for .243 6mm and 7 mm cores and so on yes the last 2 cor will have to be cut to wieght for the .224 but it is alot better than smushing shot or .22 pellets for the cores. I have not shot the .22lr rounds through a 1/7 twist but knowing it i think they would come apart twist is to much for a bullet that is .765 in length unless you load it way soft. and an ar platform is not made for that you will clog the gas tube up and they are a pain to clean out.but the tube swaged i will loaded 3 up for test and they shot great out of the 1/7 twist and i used lee manual charge start weight for it. 300 yards and i was hitting a 9 inch plate using iron sights.

Hope this helps some on what I got:Fire:

[danr]

I was using a 1/8 twist in a 20 inch bull barl.. DPMS made for the test on the rounds made up. They shot well glad to see 3/4 groups right where i placed the cross hairs.:drinks: Dan thanx again and still need the black punch but wife has put a hold on my spending lol cant blame her 2000 worth in reloading in the past two months so i am reloading a bunch and will make some cores so i can swage some too. oh a do it fienesse drop wieght mold has 8 sizes and 4 of them will work to make cores for .224 2 can be used for .243 6mm and 7 mm cores and so on yes the last 2 cor will have to be cut to wieght for the .224 but it is alot better than smushing shot or .22 pellets for the cores. I have not shot the .22lr rounds through a 1/7 twist but knowing it i think they would come apart twist is to much for a bullet that is .765 in length unless you load it way soft. and an ar platform is not made for that you will clog the gas tube up and they are a pain to clean out.but the tube swaged i will loaded 3 up for test and they shot great out of the 1/7 twist and i used lee manual charge start weight for it. 300 yards and i was hitting a 9 inch plate using iron sights.

Hope this helps some on what I got:Fire:

thanks a bunch echo4wiskey!
great to hear they are working out well for you..

if you put your old black punch in the mail to me, i'll ship you another right away for free bud.

:)
thanks,
Dan

[NSP64]

It states in an earlier thread that echo4whiskey was shooting his bullets on AMMOSMITH.COM.

I Hanve been very pleased with my die set.

I got out last weekend and shot 300 rounds of cheap tula ammo through my problem gun.
I then shot some bullets I had made from 22 mag cases. They shot fine at 2500 fps.
I also shot some made from 22lr cases, at 2600 dos. They also shot good. No bullets comming apart in flight. When I got home and cleaned the barrel, there was mo rough spot in it anymore.

[sargenv]

I've yet to actually make a run of these.. I had a bit of a goof up out of the gate that was graciously corrected by danr.. just haven't had the time to get back to making much of anything.. or even practicing for the USPSA nationals in Vegas in a few weeks.. when I get some time..

[MightyThor]

Lets recap here. The de-rim die works as described and if you follow instructions you will likely have few if any issues with it. There are many other ways to de-rim available from many other sources. So far I have yet to see any particular De-rim set up that is so superior to another that I would be able to recommend one above any other.

The Core swage die works as described as long as you don't do what I did and screw it into a press that covers up the bleed hole. Dan corrected me on this one and after correcting my set up I found that his die performed as well as any other die I use for this process. My personal preference for a slightly smaller core is not a reflection of how well dan's die works.

The Core seat die functions exactly as designed and I had to get over a brain bubble to see that it was me and not the die that was the problem. In use the core seat die works as required for this particular set up.

The Point form die creates an over size bullet. It was designed to do so. If you want a bullet that is pointed and measures at .224 in the same step, do not buy this die. The Meplat is generous. if you are making lighter hollowpoints you may find that you would prefer a smaller opening. Bullets at 60 grains and heavier will likely have a lead tip. This die set and most others will benefit from a point form die if you want beautiful lead points. If you are comfortable with the concept of resizing the pointed bullet to get a shootable product you will be able to do so with this die set.

The price of the whole set is very competitive with anything else out there currently for sale. In my experience you will get exactly what is being described and offered with this die set. It is not a perfect product in my opinion because of the extra steps involved in getting the bullet to a shootable size, but I was not in any way mislead or decieved about what I was getting. I have sets that do produce shootable bullets without resizing, and they were much more expensive and much harder to obtain. I also have die sets that have now worn to the point that the bullets were oversized. I can now use those dies and Dan's dies and my Lee dies to make proper sized bullets.

Bottom line, when the powers-on-high outlaw the sale and transportation of bullets and primers and powder, I will be able to shoot for a long time after that. Dan's dies will be part of that process.

My review of most of the non-positive critiques here showed me that the only dissatisfaction was that Dan did not produce a product that met the author's expectation. Dan's development thread showed a very well documented progression from a conical concept and prototype to an ogive with more widespread appeal. This has been an evolutionary process. I am sure we can all appreciate the effort that must have taken.

[newcastter]

I had my first de-rimming session last night and all went smooth as long as lubed all rims went through as easy as full length sizing, with the exception of federal cases some of them I thought I was going to break the arm on my press and some were not as bad but still took alot more pressure to get through.
Anyone else run across this?

[danr]

I had my first de-rimming session last night and all went smooth as long as lubed all rims went through as easy as full length sizing, with the exception of federal cases some of them I thought I was going to break the arm on my press and some were not as bad but still took alot more pressure to get through.
Anyone else run across this?

federal cases can be a pain to de-rimm.. i've found that if you move the die a little higher in the press, it does help to reduce the amount of handle pressure that is needed.

if the die is to low in the press, it can cause you to use much force on the handle.

also, CCI's tend to need allot of force.

:)
dan

[newcastter]

I thought even the CCI's went through nice just the federals gave me resistance

[Utah Shooter]

You really want all of the force coming from the very bottom of the down stroke on your press handle. If you move the die a bit down so that the case and de rim die meat sooner you can have a pain trying to push it through.

When I was first doing the de rim process with Corbin dies I could literally have my buddies 60 l kid hang on the arm and it wouldn't move at all. I then put the die further up and it works like a charm.

[xfoxofshogo]

I thought even the CCI's went through nice just the federals gave me resistance

i have a hard time geting federals soft thay seem to be a bit thicker too mabe its just the kind of brass thay are.
i have found some 22lr brass thats not comon it will crack win derimming i have not been able to fine who makes it thers no stamp at all on them
so if you fine some with no head stamp
i would not use them

[sargenv]

I noticed that the federal and cci brass were harder to deal with.. as are the Super-X winnies.. I'm nervous about the remmies, they seem to come apart really easy.. we'll see..

I may actually have sometime to play this evening.. gotta pickle my brass and then get to the next part.. the question I have currently is do I want to go into my 85 degree garage and work up a sweat... decisions, decisions.. :)

[PatMarlin]

I've got a slick (adjustable) case derimming- jacket making tool but no time to put it into production right now, so no help yet.

What caliber once fired brass do swagers use? There's 22lr brass of course, and 9mm. Any others?

Also- here's another question for you swaging enthusiasts...

Here are prices for tubing from McMaster Carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/135/=dswyap

If you could easily cut accurate jackets on your own, would you be willing to make your own jackets at these material prices?

[ReloaderFred]

Pat,

I use .32 Auto and .380 Auto for making .357 caliber bullets. For .40 and .41 caliber bullets, I use 9x19 brass. For the .44 caliber bullets, I use .40 S&W brass.

For the cores, I use unsized and lubed cast bullets of the weight I need for the finished bullet.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[PatMarlin]

I've got a slick (adjustable) case derimming- jacket making tool but no time to put it into production right now, so no help yet.

What caliber once fired brass do swagers use? There's 22lr brass of course, and 9mm. Any others?

Also- here's another question for you swaging enthusiasts...

Here are prices for tubing from McMaster Carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/135/=dswyap

If you could easily cut accurate jackets on your own, would you be willing to make your own jackets at these material prices?

I quoted myself to get on the next page.. :mrgreen:

Thanks for that info Fred.
What tools do you use to process your brass for swaging?

I'm trying to determine how much of a demand there would be for a (my) tool so a guy can make his own jackets from once fired and store bought brass or copper tubing.

I have no idea if the McMaster Carr tubing listed will work for swagers, or if the costs are inline, or if there would be a savings compared to the way guys are doing it now.

[BT Sniper]

Typical tubing jackets are about 1" long. So figure about 10-12 jackets per foot. I figure anything more then a $1 a foot in price is getting upwards in price.

[nicholst55]

I'm interested in using tubing to make jackets; specifically, I want dies to make bullets for .303 British and 7.62X54R Russian, so figure .312-313".

[danr]

30 cal tubing swaging dies will be available soon by Kaine Dies.

you can expect the price of the set will be VERY competitve with other providers.
:)
dan

[newcastter]

So if were back to talking about the dies... I'm going to cast my cores tomorrow and I was wondering if I need to worry about "wrinkled cores" like the first few that come out do I need to discard these as I would a cast boolit?

[danr]

So if were back to talking about the dies... I'm going to cast my cores tomorrow and I was wondering if I need to worry about "wrinkled cores" like the first few that come out do I need to discard these as I would a cast boolit?

nope.. no worries about them.. the core swage die will take care of it and clean it up.

:)
dan

[sargenv]

I'd refrained from posting since I hadn't had a chance to learn how to use the dies that danr sold me.. I was initially having fits.. but it wasn't due to his dies.. but how I was doing things.. Out of the gate I stuck a bullet in the point forming die that I couldn't remove.. turned out I was creating an "interference fit" that even with adequate lube, pretty much hosed the die in that nothing I could do could remove what was left of the bullet from the die.. back it went after I called Dan and he split it open to see what kind of mess I made... that was when I realized just how deep I had gotten and silly me, I really should measure things as part of my routine to make sure that what I was putting into the dies would likely come back out. oops. Dan, being ever gracious, sent me a new point form die gratis and had a few tips.. which I have followed since. The quote I have listed on another forum came to mind, "When you build something idiot proof, the world comes along and builds a better idiot".. I felt like that idiot :)

Since then I was having some issues with the derimming part.. it was then I was reminded by Dan and something I had read that you really need make sure there is no grit inside the 22 lr brass.. out came the ultra sonic cleaner and most of that problem was solved.. I've since made up some nice looking (to me) 59 ish gr bullets.. I have yet to load and fire them, but baby steps.. Once I got the hang of things and once I step up production of the cores, I should start making a bunch of these.. with the USPSA nationals in a couple of weeks, I'm going to be short on time.. this will likely be a winter project to make up enough bullets to make a run on ammo for my next year's shooting sessions.. it would actually help if I had a rifle for these bullets.. but I've had a few ppl willing to try them out.. so time will tell for me. Thanks to everyone else who has tips and have shown your results.. I hope to have some of my own photos up at some point.

[45nut]

All off topic posts have been removed,, any more posted will be removed also.
Keep it on topic or keep out.

[NSP64]

I'd refrained from posting since I hadn't had a chance to learn how to use the dies that danr sold me.. I was initially having fits.. but it wasn't due to his dies.. but how I was doing things.. Out of the gate I stuck a bullet in the point forming die that I couldn't remove.. turned out I was creating an "interference fit" that even with adequate lube, pretty much hosed the die in that nothing I could do could remove what was left of the bullet from the die.. back it went after I called Dan and he split it open to see what kind of mess I made... that was when I realized just how deep I had gotten and silly me, I really should measure things as part of my routine to make sure that what I was putting into the dies would likely come back out. oops. Dan, being ever gracious, sent me a new point form die gratis and had a few tips.. which I have followed since. The quote I have listed on another forum came to mind, "When you build something idiot proof, the world comes along and builds a better idiot".. I felt like that idiot :)

Since then I was having some issues with the derimming part.. it was then I was reminded by Dan and something I had read that you really need make sure there is no grit inside the 22 lr brass.. out came the ultra sonic cleaner and most of that problem was solved.. I've since made up some nice looking (to me) 59 ish gr bullets.. I have yet to load and fire them, but baby steps.. Once I got the hang of things and once I step up production of the cores, I should start making a bunch of these.. with the USPSA nationals in a couple of weeks, I'm going to be short on time.. this will likely be a winter project to make up enough bullets to make a run on ammo for my next year's shooting sessions.. it would actually help if I had a rifle for these bullets.. but I've had a few ppl willing to try them out.. so time will tell for me. Thanks to everyone else who has tips and have shown your results.. I hope to have some of my own photos up at some point.


Don't feel bad, I too stuck a jacket in the point forming die. I was able to get mine out. I have been shooting my bullets and find the fact that, I made them and they went out of the barrel , very satisfying. I have not been trying for match grade, just smashing them out. Thats what I purchased the dies for. Ever since getting a sonic cleaner the derimming has been easy, but some brands seem thicker than others.

[newcastter]

I just rocked out around 500 cores weighing 66.6-66.9gr tonight and have around 1,500 derimmed jackets so I'm getting closer to the finished product and yes I'm going for accuracy.
I will be posting pics soon. I will say so far I havn't had any problems yet, just figured out Federal cases are a little thicker and that there is a 250-300rnd break in process.
I am a little curious at what you guys did to stick the cases so I dont do the same thing?

[xfoxofshogo]

I just rocked out around 500 cores weighing 66.6-66.9gr tonight and have around 1,500 derimmed jackets so I'm getting closer to the finished product and yes I'm going for accuracy.
I will be posting pics soon. I will say so far I havn't had any problems yet, just figured out Federal cases are a little thicker and that there is a 250-300rnd break in process.
I am a little curious at what you guys did to stick the cases so I dont do the same thing?

lol ya it happens form time to time but what i Had happen was i got going to fast and for got to lube a few DO NOT DO THAT and a auto eject realy helps a lot mines not really auto but it work for me and i can do some string things with it i will post if thay shoot OK

o and i had to learn that i did not need to hang on stuff so hard it really dose not take much to use the dies just for fun i use the hand press for a few be for i did my mods and it work but a bench mount really the best way to go

I'm up to 1000+ rd now lol i got to get my shoot up here i lost the cord to my new cam >< i have no clue where it went my 2 year old like to hide stuff lol

[sargenv]

I um.... tried to point form a cases that was already .229" or above and well... it was oversized going in... no amount of lube helped... when I went to knock it out with the ejector, I bent that... then thought, "I have a punch, I'll use that"... and then stuck the punch into the die.. by then nothing was budging... and that was about when I called Dan asking what I should do next... :D

[newcastter]

Ok I tried to make 75gr bullets today I only did a test run of 5. Every thing went smoothly except on 2 cases I did not seat the core deep enough so when I sized it the bottom caved a lil, No big deal my bad. Now the bullet shaped nicley except it had a lil to much lead and had that funky knob on top (hence the point uniform die) I did try the pencil sharpener thing and that tore the lead up it looked horrible. So Im gonna back down about 2-3gr and I think that should do it. Does any one know exactly how much lead can be "squirt" with the swage die? Like gr

[danr]

I've done upwards of 15 to 20 grains with the core swage lead squirt. It took a fiew swages and turns of the die each time. Depends on which press your using and the cam it has. But it could go as much as 3 to 5 grains per throw. Or as little as .1 to 1 grain per throw with some weak lee's.

Cheers.
Dan


Ok I tried to make 75gr bullets today I only did a test run of 5. Every thing went smoothly except on 2 cases I did not seat the core deep enough so when I sized it the bottom caved a lil, No big deal my bad. Now the bullet shaped nicley except it had a lil to much lead and had that funky knob on top (hence the point uniform die) I did try the pencil sharpener thing and that tore the lead up it looked horrible. So Im gonna back down about 2-3gr and I think that should do it. Does any one know exactly how much lead can be "squirt" with the swage die? Like gr

[newcastter]

Oh ya now I'm squirting 15 gr like it was nothing I just had to give it a lil extra push
I'm gonna make some 70gr tomorrow and see how they turn out

[ibgp3]

One of the comments that I have seen here is that a bench rest shooter is either a millionaire, or a machinist. I suspect that the same can be said for most people who make jacketed bullets for their own use. One of the great things about what Dan has done is that I am making bullets, and I am neither machinist nor millionaire. Thanks Dan.
I want smaller bullets for quieter shooting. What I really want is about a 10 to 15 grain pill that will ride a primer out the barrel of a 22 Hornet. My first tries were total failures. I started out with 15 cases and (after about 3 hours) wound up with three bullets that looked like they might hold together long enough to make it out of the barrel.
I decided that I should practice with larger bullets, I went all the way up to 40 grains. To make small bullets in Danr's dies you need 2 things, shorter cases, and an extension for the silver bottom punch.
The black piece on the left is the extension. It is cut from a 7/32"(5.6mm) drill bit. the fluted end goes against the punch and the round end goes against the bullet. It allows you to push a small bullet far enough in to the point forming die to get some pointing. the last bullet on the left was pointed twice, once like the two in the middle, and then flipped over and re-pointed.
The black piece on the right is cut from a 13/64"(5.2mm) drill bit. The de-rimmed case slides on. The mandrel is cut to length so that when a case is tapped tight on the mandrel and the mandrel is tapped tight into your drill chuck the chuck tightens down on the part of the case you want to cut off. (see below)
My drill and my hacksaw do the cutting.

12 bullets ranged from 39.4 to 40.8 grains, probably because of the case cutting. There is not much more than a bores worth of barrel seating, so any smaller bullets will probably have to skip the point die.

OK, now to the point: If you see a better or easier or quicker way for any of this, please tell me.

Thanks
GP

[NSP64]

ibgp3, there is a pressure neeed for jaketed bullets. Fall below that pressure and risk sticking a bullet or worse yet just the jacket. Either outcome is not good. Next round can become a hand grenade at worse or ruined rifle. You want slow bullets , its better to use naked lead.

[danr]

yea, its always best when shooting low pressure bullets, to CHECK the bore EVERY SHOT. this would be considered a real experemental bullet.. so take EXTRA precautions and look for stuck bullets in bore, jackets stuck in the bore before shooting a second round. i mean really really check the bore of the rifle, even if it seems to have done ok.

xfox had a situation where he had ground off the base of a soft point, so that it had a open back side, then fired it.. he was smart enough to check before the next round.. he found that the jacket had lodged its self inside of the rifle bore with no core. so he saw a projectile hit his target.. but there was still a jacket left in his bore... could have been a real problem if he had not checked.

always be safe, the temptation to play with bullets is always present when you own a set of bullet making dies.. playing with them can be dangerous.. so make sure you keep to safe practices.

:)
Dan

[danr]

also when cutting down 22 rimfire jackets with a drill, using a tubing cutter and a longer dowl works much better than using a hax saw blade.

:)
dan

[newcastter]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e681764a18c9.jpg

All weigh 65-65.6 gr

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e681764b5533.jpg

Kaine Dies .223 from 22lr

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e681764c8dbd.jpg

All weigh 65-65.6gr

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e6817da069f9.jpg

Some look like they have more ogive on 1 side than another?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e6817da15453.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e6817da23acd.jpg

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124e6817f0e6a12.jpg

I gave the derimming die a bath with the first rnd of cases after they were derimmed, in lime juice and soap and it turned the color of the "black punch" works for me I dont have to worry about mixing them up

[danr]

they look pretty good newcastter. great idea making the de-rimming die black.

:)
dan

[newcastter]

they look pretty good newcastter. great idea making the de-rimming die black.

:)
dan

It was an accident but worked out great thought I would share with every one

[newcastter]

Danr look at #125 some sem to have the ogive on 1 side and not the other or at least not as much what do you think? I will load them this wek for shooting and prob shoot next wek as were getting pounded by rain here in the east coast

[frank martinez]

Visually the light balance can cause what looks like an imbalance. Can you also see this in person? Have you checked them with a concentric gauge?
Frank

[Utah Shooter]

Wow. Not to be mean but why cannot all of the pictures be posted in 1 thread? PM SENT THEN

[newcastter]

I did look after I saw the pics I do notice them with the naked eye, Im not real familar with what concentric is, Welcome to the thread Frank do you own a set?

[danr]

Danr look at #125 some sem to have the ogive on 1 side and not the other or at least not as much what do you think? I will load them this wek for shooting and prob shoot next wek as were getting pounded by rain here in the east coast

i agree with frank, it could be the angle of the camera or the light balance of the picture.

if you can see the same thing in person, then it is possible that they went into the sizing die and went sideways as they where pushed through. i have seen this happen in testing. usualy occures when the sizing die really low and allot of force is needed to push them through. also poor lube can also cause the die to pull one side of the bullet more than the other while it is sizing, causing it to make an odd shaped ogive.

the easy way to check for this without a special tool, is to use a mirror, and roll the bullet in question along its surface. watch the point of the bullet to see if it wabbles as it rolls. if it wobbles, its a clear sign that the ogive was forced off center. it would also prove to be an inaccurate bullet.

:)
dan

[newcastter]

Wow. Not to be mean but why cannot all of the pictures be posted in 1 thread?

I just learned how to get them on the thread

[Utah Shooter]

Uh ok.

[randmplumbingllc]

I did look after I saw the pics I do notice them with the naked eye, Im not real familar with what concentric is, Welcome to the thread Frank do you own a set?

Chuck them up in a drill chuck. It might be easier to see that way.

[danr]

Chuck them up in a drill chuck. It might be easier to see that way.

unless the drill can move slowly, like around 2 rpms, you may not be able to see the wobble.

with a mirror its easier to notice the wobble due to the reflection.. you can see both sides of it really easy.

[frank martinez]

I did look after I saw the pics I do notice them with the naked eye, Im not real familar with what concentric is, Welcome to the thread Frank do you own a set?



Here is a link to the item I was referring to and a bit about the importance.
I do not have a set yet. I am just getting started and only own a couple of die sets. I am still shooting factories. I have been working with a friend who has Corbin equipment and I ask him about things I read about here. Still learning.
Frank
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/10/hh-concentricity-gauge-bullet-straightener/

[danr]

Here is a link to the item I was referring to and a bit about the importance.
I do not have a set yet. I am just getting started and only own a couple of die sets. I am still shooting factories. I have been working with a friend who has Corbin equipment and I ask him about things I read about here. Still learning.
Frank
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/10/hh-concentricity-gauge-bullet-straightener/

yea, that is one of the "special" tools.

however, it will not show certian things about ogives. its mainly to check for "square" or correct bullet seating into a case.. not for checking the bullet's ogive concentricity. it can be used for it, but you wouldn't be able to tell if its due to seating problems, or neck malformation in the case, or bullet ogive malformations.

i have used them before, and owned one a fiew years back.. after using it for a period, and have shot both "perfect" seated bullets, and imperfect seated bullets, it really doesn't make much difference if the bullet is .0001 - .0005 off.

being .001 or more off does make a difference, but that is enough to be seen by the naked eye.

since i now own a lathe, i just chuck it up in my lathe and use my dails.

other people here may have their own idea's about this tool. but this is just my own personal expirence with using it.

:)
Dan

[45nut]

Wow. Not to be mean but why cannot all of the pictures be posted in 1 thread? PM SENT THEN

I just merged all the posts into one.

[1911sw45]

Any new updates, on how they preform, any other new from you Danr? Just been awhile since anyone has posted on this.

[danr]

nothing new that i know off. some of the other members have done some more shooting. .but nothing special or worth while to report..

also no complaints as well. every seems pretty happy with the dies.

:)
Dan

[sargenv]

I have yet to load and fire the ones I've made.. several irons in the fire and not owning a 224 cal rifle currently hampers me. Some would wonder why I got a set... but I have my "reasons" :) I'm still working out the kinks and when I get some time I'll play with the set some more.. I'm pretty happy with the outcome I've seen so far though..

[xfoxofshogo]

sorry for no updats i have not been out shooting i been working on my house lol

at 250 yards i can keep nice small grups my gun a AR15 20" 1-8 tiwst with a 6-26x50 scope
i load 70g builts with 21.0 H335

i do have targets to take pic of and post just have not had much time with a working camera lol

[tbird1960]

at 250 yards i can keep nice small grups.


What exactly is small groups in inches across the group???? What SIZE group in inches have you shot with these bullets at 100 yards????

[tbird1960]

at 250 yards i can keep nice small grups.


What exactly is small groups in inches across the group???? What SIZE group in inches have you shot with these bullets at 100 yards????

[sargenv]

I hope to have some results this weekend.. I made up some 55's and some 60's.. I'm still working on a core mold.. I made one up using a blank 6 cav Lee mold and messed up when I made the cavities a tad too large.. I would prefer to use the core swage die instead of having to use the die where you can squeeze down the size of the core (can't remember the name of the die). The mold is dropping cores right at about 50 gr for a 60 ish gr bullet. Once I perfect the core mold, I may make up different molds in different sizes or just settle on one bullet weight. Undecided for now. All this with just a drill press, a drill press vice, and patience..

[xfoxofshogo]

at 250 yards i can keep nice small grups.


What exactly is small groups in inches across the group???? What SIZE group in inches have you shot with these bullets at 100 yards????

ok this was a target i shot last week sorry but its a 25 ft pistol target i use them for shooting a lot for ther chep this was at 200y for now the water was back up in the river cant walk to the outher side now lol and it was 5 shots
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ecf0faa94502.jpg
32.53mm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ecf0faac32f6.jpg

and the spots i coverd up was 9mm lol i reuse targets if ther not too bad and that was done be for shooting it with 223 so i know if i hit the same spot 2

[danr]

Wanted to let everyone know that i finally have the reamers to make a boat tail punch that will also do point uniforming all with 1 punch.

its a bottom punch with an ogive cut into it, so that you can put the projectile upside down, point down into the punch. when used with the point forming die, it will taper the bottom of the projectile for boat tail.. when the punch is used with the core seating die, it will uniform the point.. it will allow for smaller hollow points, sharper soft points, and soft hollow points.

the retail price for the punch is $40 shipping included.. $35 if combined with a die set order.

if anyone is interested feel free to make a payment to drickard@gmail.com in the description put "boat tail/point uniform punch"

i'll post some pics of the punch and projectiles sometime tomorrow.

thanks,
Dan Rickard
Owner of Kaine Dies.

[tbird1960]

Do you have a set of dies and the point form with boat tail die in stock?

[danr]

Do you have a set of dies and the point form with boat tail die in stock?

they are made in batch's. and i'm always running new batch's to keep up with demand. i ask for a 3 to 6 week delivery time in case production company gets backed up.. but they could ship sooner than 3 weeks depending on where i am with a batch.

usually the batch's sell fast, so the best thing to do is put in an order with a payment.. you'll get it as soon as i have it.


thanks,
Dan

[DukeInFlorida]

Dan,

How many sets have you sold to date?

[danr]

Dan,

How many sets have you sold to date?

little over 70.

i'm working on my 7th run of 10. most of them are already sold and are shipping monday morning.

so far, not 1 return, and everyone seems to love them.

:)
Dan

[danr]

here is a before and after picture of the projectiles
the boat tail / point uniform combo punch, used with the Core seating die to do point uniforming.

before
http://i44.tinypic.com/vgpeyp.jpg

after
http://i41.tinypic.com/2rrq54h.jpg


here are some pics of the punch.. sorry for the poor quality.

punch inside
http://i43.tinypic.com/2meuagm.jpg

punch outside
http://i40.tinypic.com/smmb.jpg

[danr]

here is a picture of a before and after the boat tail operation done with one of the same projectiles. it may be difficult to see, before boat tail operation, the projectile will not finger lock into a sized case, but after there is a small taper to the base, that allows it to finger lock into a sized case. only about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of the base is changed by the point forming die.


before
http://i40.tinypic.com/111kwnk.jpg

after
http://i44.tinypic.com/2nknk5.jpg

the boat tail operation is done with the combo punch and the point forming die.

these operations are done after the projectiles are formed and sized.. then you would perform the point uniform and boat tail operations, then size once more to maintain correct sizing.

thanks,
dan

[DDriller]

What's the diameter of the boat tail base?

[danr]

Where's the boat tail?

its there, but difficult to see.. more of a taper tail than a boat tail.

mainly to aid for progressive loaders, and for easier single loading.

the original concept behind boat tails was to allow for easier loading, because you can set the projectile onto a powdered case, causing it to taper lock onto the case with slight amount of pressure. thus you no longer have to guide the projectile and case into a seating die.

later as time went on, the factory community bastardized the boat tail concept into "better accuracy" and made the boat tail angle much more angled and pronounced.

a greater angle can be done by pressing it into the point forming die further.
thus giving the base more of a taper. with the punch, you can decide just how much of a boat tail you want.

[danr]

maybe this image will make the boat tail easier to see

http://i42.tinypic.com/23mm55.jpg

i could never explain just how difficult it is to get these images.. but i gave it my best try.

thanks,
dan

[Utah Shooter]

Not sure if it is just the photos but those look kinda crooked.

Are you planning on making a punch that makes a boat tail similar to these?

http://i44.tinypic.com/rbz192.jpg

[danr]

Not sure if it is just the photos but those look kinda crooked.

Are you planning on making a punch that makes a boat tail similar to these?



what caliber are those utah? 30 cal's?

its the camera, made them look crooked because it didn't have a centered view.

[Utah Shooter]

No those are 80 gr .224's I believe. I will check.

Looks like they are "82.5 and then a Berger 75gr. then my 77gr," not mine mind you.

[danr]

No those are 80 gr .224's I believe. I will check.

Looks like they are "82.5 and then a Berger 75gr. then my 77gr," not mine mind you.

those have the be the longest 224's i've ever seen. or at least they look extra long in picture. may not be that long in real life.

what is the length of those things.. also what are you shooting them with?

[Utah Shooter]

Again not my projectiles. Have not shot any of them. A post from another forum. I did look into them and it appears they can be shot out of an AR.

[DukeInFlorida]

1) There are 70 sets of these out in the world...............
2) we've only had a few people respond that they have used them............
3) All the thousands of posts on this one specific subject.............

Where else have you sold them? They certainly weren't to only castboolit people.......... Are there some other forums that you can point me to, so I can take a look at responses?

I'm asking because I am looking to purchase a set similar to yours, but want to see evidence and recommendations from more than you and one or two other people. With 70 sets out there, it seems to me that I should be able to find some comments, good or bad.

Thanks for leads on where I can find others who have used them.

[danr]

1) There are 70 sets of these out in the world...............
2) we've only had a few people respond that they have used them............
3) All the thousands of posts on this one specific subject.............

Where else have you sold them? They certainly weren't to only castboolit people.......... Are there some other forums that you can point me to, so I can take a look at responses?

I'm asking because I am looking to purchase a set similar to yours, but want to see evidence and recommendations from more than you and one or two other people. With 70 sets out there, it seems to me that I should be able to find some comments, good or bad.

Thanks for leads on where I can find others who have used them.

many of them sold on ebay, and a bunch of people who seen the posts here and contacted me directly.

i'll see about getting them to post something here for you.

i've sold dies to people in 8 different countries, and 20 different states..
i'll send out a reminder to everyone to post something here on castboolits.

thanks,
dan

[DukeInFlorida]

what is your ebay vendor name?

[danr]

what is your ebay vendor name?

just search for "kaine dies" you'll find them.

or here is a current set url

http://www.ebay.com/itm/224-swage-dies-Kaine-Dies-/320802783284?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab1560034

[danr]

dukeinmain, if you really do want a set, then let me remind you, i do offer a full money back if you don't like them.. even if it is 6 months later.

so really, you have nothing to loose other than a small shipping fee..

:)
Dan

[DukeInFlorida]

that listing says that you have completed FOUR sales.......

and, only two of those were your sales of 224 dies.

The other two completed sales were you buying something.

Have you used some other ebay vendor name for these sales?

[danr]

that listing says that you have completed FOUR sales.......

and, only two of those were your sales of 224 dies.

The other two completed sales were you buying something.

Have you used some other ebay vendor name for these sales?

duke, are you here to detail my sales or what?
if you want a set, then by all means, i have no problems selling a set to you..

even if it means that you're only going to pick them apart and find anything you can to make them look bad..

if not, then stop adding junk to the thread. this stuff is better handled via PM.

thanks,
dan

[DukeInFlorida]

Dan,
I'm only trying to discern the happiness of customers. And, having a hard time with the numbers of sales, compared to where you said that you sold them.

Right now, the $300 is a LOT of money for me, and I don't want to even spend $$$ on postage if I'm not going to be happy. I'm being diligent in doing my homework.

I'm asking straightforward questions in the public forum, not to raise any eyebrows or your temper. I'm asking because I know that others are also wondering the same things I wonder. These are legitimate questions. They are reasonable questions. And, they are important questions.

[ibgp3]

FWIW I am one of the happy users and I get the same feeling as Dan.
Duke doesn't sound like a buyer, Duke sounds like a competitor.
...or a competitor's lackey.

My bet is that there is no chance under any circumstances that Duke will ever buy a set of dies from Dan. That's not what he is here for.

Now Dan, I got your email that you need feedback. Where does a happy camper post the feedback?

[Salmon-boy]

I for one, KNOW that Duke is on the prowl for a set of dies like this. He's just a cautious purchaser.

No offense, but with 11 posts, you're the one coming off as a lackey.

I found this post because he's the one who is helping me train to become a congressman.. I'm starting to get REAL good at deficit spending!

[ibgp3]

11 posts means I don't live here, I have other things to do.

Your sponsor status and lifetime of posts don't match what you are saying.

[lunicy]

I bought a set on ebay.
I am real happy with them and just ordered his boat tail punch.

I read all the reviews here.
I was in the market for a .223 set of dies for a while.
I always scoured ebay/craigs etc.. for the deal of a lifetime waiting on someone to dump a corbin or RCE set or something.

Then I came across his dies on ebay.
I read the Ebay ad, the put 2+2 together and said this is the same guy on CB.

Having said that, Dan always stressed his money back guarantee.

So I closed my eyes, took a deep breath, and clicked buy.

I can say nothing but good things about the dies, and about Dan. He is a pleasure to deal with.

[MIBULLETS]

I thought that's what this thread was actually started for, to post reviews of the dies and the bullets produced from them. I think that's the information Duke is looking for as I am sure others are too.

[ibgp3]

If I felt the need to ask one of the Maine Dog's questions, I wouldn't, I'd walk away.

When he keeps digging. it doesn't sound like a buyer to me.

When he has another sponsor stick up for him 10 minutes after I post my comment I smell a couple of rats.

That's just my opinion.

[Love Life]

I have the same questions DukeInMaine does. I am not a sponsor. I am a shooter looking for a good solid product for the money. There have been a couple (I think 5) reviews posted which have all been positive. That is a good thing.

I have seen targets, but none of them look very promising. XFoxofShogoX posted a target pic that is supposedly from 200 yards, but not only is that unconfirmed, there are also pasted over 9mm holes in the target. Makes you question things.

What would be nice is if an owner of a set of these dies were to post their load and weapon combo. Also some targets posted from shooting that can be verified. I don't shoot a .223 so I can shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yards. If I order a set of dies I want the boolits to consistantly shoot under an inch at 100 yards. Period and bar none. I believe that is what other shooters are looking for as well.

[Love Life]

ok this was a target i shot last week sorry but its a 25 ft pistol target i use them for shooting a lot for ther chep this was at 200y for now the water was back up in the river cant walk to the outher side now lol and it was 5 shots
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ecf0faa94502.jpg
32.53mm
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ecf0faac32f6.jpg

and the spots i coverd up was 9mm lol i reuse targets if ther not too bad and that was done be for shooting it with 223 so i know if i hit the same spot 2

What are the widths of the 8 and 6 rings on your target?

[1911sw45]

Dan,
Would you be willing to sent me some samples of your bullets you have made with your dies? I would pay shipping. Would like 25 flat base as close to 55gr as you can get. Also 25 boat tail as close to 55gr as you can get. I got a Weatherby .223 bolt action with a bull barrel I believe it has a 26" barrel. I can shoot 100 to 150 yds. I will give a full honest write up of the bullets and the performance from them. I do not have a cony though. If this is fine PM me.

Adam

[MIBULLETS]

Dan,
Would you be willing to sent me some samples of your bullets you have made with your dies? I would pay shipping. Would like 25 flat base as close to 55gr as you can get. Also 25 boat tail as close to 55gr as you can get. I got a Weatherby .223 bolt action with a bull barrel I believe it has a 26" barrel. I can shoot 100 to 150 yds. I will give a full honest write up of the bullets and the performance from them. I do not have a cony though. If this is fine PM me.

Adam

Sounds like a good plan there. This is what prospective buyers need.

[rasto]

Guys I know you want guarantees but to be honest what kind of it would be more than full refund after unsatisfactory occur?

I have bought the Kaine dies via the Ebay as well but can not evaluate them because are on their way to me right now.

But I can tell you the main thing regarding customer service which is more than outstanding for sure.

[Love Life]

Dan,
Would you be willing to sent me some samples of your bullets you have made with your dies? I would pay shipping. Would like 25 flat base as close to 55gr as you can get. Also 25 boat tail as close to 55gr as you can get. I got a Weatherby .223 bolt action with a bull barrel I believe it has a 26" barrel. I can shoot 100 to 150 yds. I will give a full honest write up of the bullets and the performance from them. I do not have a cony though. If this is fine PM me.

Adam

This would be great.

[Utah Shooter]

I thought that's what this thread was actually started for, to post reviews of the dies and the bullets produced from them. I think that's the information Duke is looking for as I am sure others are too.

It is. I asked XFOX to start the thing. Wanted a review of the dies. Not questions to Dan for this is OP XFOX's thread. It is a review for CB member of Kaine dies. A REVIEW of the dies. Not a thread to start questioning the dies from someone who we all frankly know will not buy dies from Dan but from BT.

If you would like to look into a thread of asking Dan questions there is a 40 plus page thread I can direct you to.

Again this is a thread of reviewing the dies. I do understand that there may be questions about the dies themselves but again there is a big thread if you would like to ask Dan himself about the dies. If you would like to ask XFOX his opinions about the dies then ask away.

If you would like to ask Dan about them...... Go to the other thread.

For those of you who would like targets of the projectiles the dies make I can assure an honest review of the projectiles shot out of MY RRA Predator Pursuit can be found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuY7u7zdAI
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrUtahShooter#p/a/u/1/0gK3f0i2Vnk
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrUtahShooter#p/a/u/0/dO9DCq3b9eI

[Utah Shooter]

So X. How do you like the dies?

[Buckshot]

................As a moderator I know Dan had conversations with 45Nut (Ken) the board owner. Dan understands the responsibilities attached to becoming a Vendor Sponser here at Cast Boolit's, and has stepped up to the plate to become one. Just as the board has rules in place for the Swapping and Selling forum, which were put in place in the board's interest in protecting the member's from fly by night, or "Here and Gone" sellers, ditto the Vendor Sponser, only more so. You have to speak with Ken, as it represents something a bit extra, and Ken has to be comfortable with the individual in order to get the banner.

I'd personally believe that having done so Dan is interested in establishing a reputable operation, and his guarentee appears to establish that. In addition Dan has been a member for almost a year and a half in addiiton to having almost 500 posts. I'd not think it's a ruse but someone genuinely interested in producing a quality product.

If someone purchases his product and is dissatisfied, Dan states his guarantee up front. If that isn't satisfactory you have the option of not buying. If you have an issue communicate with Dan as you would any other Vendor Sponsor, and if that doesn't resolve it, take it to 45Nut.

...................Buckshot

[ibgp3]

I Googled swage and found the original Thread when there were about 30 pages.
By the time I got caught up on the thread I wanted a set.
I payed for my set before the first set had been shipped.
I liked what I saw, I paid my nickel, and I took my chance.
I liked what I got and said so.

I don't have many posts here because the 2 threads on Danr's dies are the only ones on this site that I have read. I quit casting bullets 30 years ago.

I got an email from Danr asking for feedback, and came to this site to renew my feedback.
The first thing I saw was a string of posts that didn't seem to be from a prospective buyer to me.

In the interest of fairness I looked for another possibility, and I came up with this:
Maybe these guys really want a set of dies, maybe this is Danr's second generation of customers.
People who haven't read the thread on developing the whole thing.
My first clue was when one of the requests was for one of Danr's customers to provide better documentation on his feedback.
Maybe these guys want Danr's dies to be just like Corbins, only cheaper.
Maybe these guys want Danr's documentation to be just like Corbins.
Maybe these guys want to be shrewd and careful consumers, and money back is not enough.

I bought a set of dies. They do what Danr said they would and what I want them to do.

Good luck Danr.
...with shrewd and careful consumers and all other women.

PS: I like Utah's idea: This thread is for people who have a set of dies.
wannabe's go to the other thread please .

[newcastter]

Dan,
Would you be willing to sent me some samples of your bullets you have made with your dies? I would pay shipping. Would like 25 flat base as close to 55gr as you can get. Also 25 boat tail as close to 55gr as you can get. I got a Weatherby .223 bolt action with a bull barrel I believe it has a 26" barrel. I can shoot 100 to 150 yds. I will give a full honest write up of the bullets and the performance from them. I do not have a cony though. If this is fine PM me.

Adam

Wouln't that be great free bullets by mail... I opted to buy the dies and make my own free bullets and I am a very happy customer.

[Love Life]

Thank you for the review Utah Shooter. That is exactly what I was looking for. In the first video it looks like the bullet in the middle was either crooked or had an uneven base. Is this caused from the differences in rimfire brass or was it just perspective?

Have you used these on any little critters yet? Your review had me seriously considering buying a set of dies from Danr until I read ibgp's post.

I will now take my money elsewhere and I apologize if I got this thread off track.

[Reload3006]

I have not used any of Dans dies and don't intend to. I also have not used any of BTs dies and don't intend to. I personally have nothing against either gentlemen. I honestly don't have a dog in this fight. I use RCE gear. for my own personal reasons. I do know of Dans reputation from other sites and I have found him to be an honest man. If he says I'll give you your money back he means it he will give you your money back. If you are chewing on what to buy and a reloading press die is the way you opt to go I dont personally see how you could go wrong with if you dont like it send it back for a refund? What more can the guy do?

[xfoxofshogo]

So X. How do you like the dies?

Thay are working grate i love them i have made about 6000+ i have to load but im cleaning and primeing brass right now and 6000 rd of brass takes time to prep to load

i will be buying a point unform punch

and the outher die sets win danR has finish them for 308cal 9mm 40cal

do not have a 45 but will buy one of thos as well

[xfoxofshogo]

Thank you for the review Utah Shooter. That is exactly what I was looking for. In the first video it looks like the bullet in the middle was either crooked or had an uneven base. Is this caused from the differences in rimfire brass or was it just perspective?

Have you used these on any little critters yet? Your review had me seriously considering buying a set of dies from Danr until I read ibgp's post.

I will now take my money elsewhere and I apologize if I got this thread off track.

the mest up builts where form ueing the wrong punch when doing the sizeing setup
i have done this you can fix them by re swagesing and resizeing with the right punch

[Love Life]

Thanks Xfox. I guessed it was something like that, but wasn't sure.

[MightyThor]

I have already posted my results with dan's dies. I would offer to test and report, shooting, but my supply of untouched brass is depleted. I derim before annealing and I have found that the de-rim dies I made and ones I have obtained elsewhere work better for me than Dan's De-rim die. I also have not used Dans Core die much because my cast cores and my other core methods work for my set up. I could certainly point and resize some of my existing stuff using Dan's dies but this may not give anyone the information that they are seeking. Dan specifies that his system is intended to be used all together.

[MIBULLETS]

It is. I asked XFOX to start the thing. Wanted a review of the dies. Not questions to Dan for this is OP XFOX's thread. It is a review for CB member of Kaine dies. A REVIEW of the dies. Not a thread to start questioning the dies from someone who we all frankly know will not buy dies from Dan but from BT.

If you would like to look into a thread of asking Dan questions there is a 40 plus page thread I can direct you to.

Again this is a thread of reviewing the dies. I do understand that there may be questions about the dies themselves but again there is a big thread if you would like to ask Dan himself about the dies. If you would like to ask XFOX his opinions about the dies then ask away.

If you would like to ask Dan about them...... Go to the other thread.

For those of you who would like targets of the projectiles the dies make I can assure an honest review of the projectiles shot out of MY RRA Predator Pursuit can be found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuY7u7zdAI
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrUtahShooter#p/a/u/1/0gK3f0i2Vnk
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrUtahShooter#p/a/u/0/dO9DCq3b9eI

I can agree with that...well said.

[Salmon-boy]

I Googled swage and found the original Thread when there were about 30 pages.
By the time I got caught up on the thread I wanted a set.
I payed for my set before the first set had been shipped.
I liked what I saw, I paid my nickel, and I took my chance.
I liked what I got and said so.

I don't have many posts here because the 2 threads on Danr's dies are the only ones on this site that I have read. I quit casting bullets 30 years ago.

I got an email from Danr asking for feedback, and came to this site to renew my feedback.
The first thing I saw was a string of posts that didn't seem to be from a prospective buyer to me.

In the interest of fairness I looked for another possibility, and I came up with this:
Maybe these guys really want a set of dies, maybe this is Danr's second generation of customers.
People who haven't read the thread on developing the whole thing.
My first clue was when one of the requests was for one of Danr's customers to provide better documentation on his feedback.
Maybe these guys want Danr's dies to be just like Corbins, only cheaper.
Maybe these guys want Danr's documentation to be just like Corbins.
Maybe these guys want to be shrewd and careful consumers, and money back is not enough.

I bought a set of dies. They do what Danr said they would and what I want them to do.

Good luck Danr.
...with shrewd and careful consumers and all other women.

PS: I like Utah's idea: This thread is for people who have a set of dies.
wannabe's go to the other thread please .

Wow, People will read into anything. I wholly apologize for any inference that was taken. I have no problems with you being a good customer and liking the product. I do take offense at you trying to disparage another board member who has added a significant amount of tutelage here. I've met Duke in person, and he's committed to sharing the passion of Swaging and Reloading. I even made a joke about his influence..

I'm a sponsor of this site because of two reasons. 1) I've learned VERY much about casting boolits here. 2) I can afford to be a sponsor and help pass on this education.

Buckshot is correct. If DanR has done due diligence to become a vendor here, I completely support his efforts. I mentioned that DukeInMaine is on the prowl for a set of dies because I know he is. I also know that I'm in the same search. We've conversed over what makes a good set of swage dies. Just because I've got an extra $40 a year to support this site doesn't mean that I'll throw $400 at a set of dies. Read some of my other posts. I just called the situation as I saw it.

This post should not be taken as instigation for a flame-war. Now that I've made a complete schmuck of myself, I'll stop digging. :drinks:

[xfoxofshogo]

What are the widths of the 8 and 6 rings on your target?

6 is 2" 8 is 1" is a 25 ft slow pistol target at 200 yd with a bushnell scope its a 6-24x50

[xfoxofshogo]

sorry love life i mist page 9 some how lol

[Nvrserious]

I am not sure what most of the guys on this site are complaining about with these dies.
We have made 5000 or so jacketed boolits using every .22 brands and have had nothing but success with the dies. They have preformed exactly as Danr said they would. The dies have broken in very nicely and have gotten easier to use.I would recomend them to anyone that wants a cheaply priced high quality set of dies for swagging.

These were taken with a iphone so not the best pics but you can see they are uniform and smooth.

If these pics show up they are a sample of some of our boolits they shoot 1/2 inch groups at 50 yds and 1 inch at 100.

We uniformed them to 63 grain and point form them for soft point. the hollow points work well also but do hang on the feed ramps occasionally. working on solving that problem as well.

Thanks Dan. will contact you about another set of each post for backups
Jerry

[heliman]

It is my turn to do a review, complete with some shooting results that others have wanted. First, I am new at this swage game. I have been fortunate to get a set of BT Snipers 45 dies and now Dans. I recieved my dies yesterday and went to work. When I first looked at them I thought they were a little light but I was comparing them to one that do 45's. These dies are rugged and very well made. I did find that I am having trouble with the deriming but will work that out in time. The other dies work great with no effort at all. If it wasn't for the derim you could use these in the lightest of presses. I won't post a bunch of pics cause they look like everyone elses. Well mabe just one! My first impression was the the point was too big but after shooting them I guess not. Should have some explosive expantion. I used molded cores so have not used the core swager. 55 gr finished give or take. I should note that the bullets shot are totaly random with no effort to match. Also, I am not even close to being a bench shooter. These results are from a heavy barreled Rem 700 in 22-250. I started at 25 gr of 414 and ended at 30gr, 5 shots each at 1 gr intervals. I shot off sand bags so not the greatest rest. -7 C with little wind. All were at 100 yds at our range. Now for some pics! The first group is 27 gr of 414, second is 28 gr and the last is 29. 30 gr really opened up and under 27 were about 1.75. I don't have velocities but 37 gr gives me 3800 ft/sec. I did expect the jackets to come of at 30 gr but all stayed intact. I normally shot Hornaday 55 vmax sx and these results are as good or better. 29 gr is a clear winner for now! :D

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef275d011ec0.jpg
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3078)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef275fecd5f2.jpg
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3079)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef2763168ac0.jpg
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3080)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef2768b0e0b3.jpg
url][url=http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3083]http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef276dd751e1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3081)

In conclusion, if these dies cost $600 I would feel that they were a very good deal. At what Dan is charging for these my advice is to get some ordered before he realizes he is not charging enough or quits making them. For those of you flameing him earlier, well you just don't have a clue. Great product creating a better than expected results, how could it get any better. Good job, Dan and keep up the good work!!

[gvanzeggelaar]

My dies are working great as well. I make 55gr hollow points. The point did seem a bit big but it will expand very well.

As for the derimming die. Make sure you brass is clean and you will have no issues. I put a few hundred brass in a container with Pam non stick spray and it works like a dream.

Great product

[xfoxofshogo]

wow 29 is a good load it looks good i will have to tri 414 in my AR

[Rangefinder]

Man, I'm really starting to not like you guys at all... You're all conspiring together to make me buy a set of these, and my better-half is gonna rip me a new vent opening for it! :D

NICE!! Very nice!

[Utah Shooter]

You know. I have seen some with opinions that like them (that own them), some that hate them (who will not give them the chance) and some that are in between (would like to own them but may not have the funds).

Just like most guns. Until they try them..... They can say I heard of this or that or I like this aspect or dislike that one... But they will never know until they try them.

I do not personally own them. I have done a review of the projectiles the dies make and can see some really good projectiles.

I wished Dan could send me more to test. But in the long run have no issues with the Corbin set that I own so I can see as to why he would not. I am just frankly not a potential buyer. But bet he would if I asked.

I am currently looking for a set to make .308 projectiles accurate out to 600 yards. I do think one day Dan will come up with a way to do that as well with some of his dies. He seems to be the sort of guy that will keep on keeping on.

Until that day perhaps!


My dies are working great as well. I make 55gr hollow points. The point did seem a bit big but it will expand very well.


From what I understand it is not the meplat of the projectile that causes the expansion. It is the HP space between the meplat and where the actual lead starts that helps with expansion.

I have shot 55 gr projectiles from 22lr brass that did not expand as well as I thought. I then moved to 53 gr projectiles and could see the difference of expansion between the 2.

[nick p99]

Hello I´m from Buenos Aires, Argentina. I´ve just bought a set of .224 swage dies fron Kaines Dies.
They work great!!! Now I can have very cheap bullets for my .22 hornet!!!
The best of all is that this dies are very much cheaper than others and I can use them on my reloading press.

[heliman]

Ok, just back from the range with some more results. -3 C with a 10 mph cross wind which I don't think helped. Rem 700 heavy barrel with a 1:14 twist. 7 groups of five starting at 31 gr of H414 going up to 37 gr. 55 grn bullets. Ran them through the chrony this time. None of the groups broke 2" with 1" groups at 34 grn and 37 grns, which surprisingly, is exactally the same as I get with Hornadys. 37 grns give 3300 ft/sec and goes down almost exactly 100 ft/sec per 1 grn of powder to 2700 ft/sec at 31 grns. No indication of case separation. I loaded some at 41 grns which is slightly over max but didn't get a group, which is the same as I get with factory bullets. Hit 3800 ft/sec with those and again, no separations. I think these little pills have great potential and exceded anything I was expecting. I thought for sure the jackets would separate at these speeds. Can't wait till the gophers are out!! Have to go see if I can call in a coyote to try them on. :Fire:


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef500a795a37.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3093)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_211024ef500ce247c2.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=3094)

[DukeInFlorida]

With a slow twist, 1:14, you won't get any separation. The faster the twist (1:7, 1:9) the more rpm's the bullet is spinning as it leaves the barrel.

[xfoxofshogo]

hehehe had to post pic ^^
this is some whiting to get a point ^^ its 1k+ i do not really keep count lol its 5 lb of lead and brass
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ef59dc115c0d.jpg

[DukeInFlorida]

I am seeing bullet POINTS that are all over the place. Short fat ones, skinny long ones.

Is your process that uncontrollable that you would have so much variation? It's a wonder that two bullets in a row even hit the same piece of paper.

When I swage bullets, I keep the results from each batch not only separated, but also marked as to what each batch is. (weight, diameter, length, etc)

[Utah Shooter]

Xfox. Are those different wieght projectiles?

[xfoxofshogo]

no there not the same in gr and i have not put a point on them yet and i will post some pic of them win there done ^^

[xfoxofshogo]

you know im going to soot some like that and see what they do for fun lol

[MightyThor]

[QUOTE=xfoxofshogo;1515582]im shooting a 1-8 and all is good im pushing to the max as i use full loads and some times a bit more to where my brass olny last 6 or 8 reloads and not one had separation happen on the way to the target
i will post a brass round that did not make it built it ded on too load was way to hot

i get rip on for stuff like this but i do testing i will mess up a lot of brass be for testing is over
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ef59dc158a43.jpg
/QUOTE]

You are going to hurt yourself or some one else if you keep that up. There is no excuse for working up loads that do that to the brass. You are way past what is reasonable in a production firearm. This kind of stuff is best left to expert facilities who use pressure test barrels and actions with full safety protections in place. When your gun comes apart, and it will eventually, it is likely that it will be more than just the gun that gets damaged. I am not ripping on you, I am pleading with you, don't keep doing this.

[Reload3006]

[QUOTE=xfoxofshogo;1515582]im shooting a 1-8 and all is good im pushing to the max as i use full loads and some times a bit more to where my brass olny last 6 or 8 reloads and not one had separation happen on the way to the target
i will post a brass round that did not make it built it ded on too load was way to hot

i get rip on for stuff like this but i do testing i will mess up a lot of brass be for testing is over
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754ef59dc158a43.jpg
/QUOTE]

You are going to hurt yourself or some one else if you keep that up. There is no excuse for working up loads that do that to the brass. You are way past what is reasonable in a production firearm. This kind of stuff is best left to expert facilities who use pressure test barrels and actions with full safety protections in place. When your gun comes apart, and it will eventually, it is likely that it will be more than just the gun that gets damaged. I am not ripping on you, I am pleading with you, don't keep doing this.
+1 if you keep this up you will win a darwin award.

[Mountain Prepper]

xfoxofshogo

Like the others there is a bit of cautionary concern over this issue.

While I cannot speak for DukeInMaine he is a reloading instructor and I would bet he would also agree on this issue.

Severe over-pressure as shown in the photograph are signs that there is a dangerous problem developing.

While I am not into constant references to personal stories, there is an older gentleman at the local range (former, I have moved) that is now missing his right eye. He continued to load hotter rounds until he hit the point where his rifle failed - the over pressure sent most of the bolt pieces into his face. As luck would have it someone was there to help get him to the emergency room or he would have bleed to death on the bench.

We would all prefer that you stick with us here and not end up in a bad situation.

[tbird1960]

xfox I just want to say if you keep up this kind of system of reloading the next time it may be the rifle and not the brass that comes apart. In plain words you may die if you keep this up or very possibly be crippled.

[danr]

i totally agree with what many others have said about xfoxofshogo pushing himself further than actual safe limits. JAMES, please.. there is a point where going overboard is beyond stupidity, but bridging upon retarded. not meant as a bash on you bro.. but be safe. your rifle may take this abuse a few times, but each time your developing cracks and weakness in the chamber.. all it takes is one to many times then its to late. i am one to keep things safe, even if your shooting alone.. it doesn't matter..

please don't do that sort of thing again, and we don't want to hear about you doing it again for that matter. last thing we want is a newbie reading about you overloading your rifle and living to tell about it, then go and do it himself and kill himself or someone else in the process. there's a certain point of responsibility to not only those who you shot with, but those who you share your knowledge with.

i do know that xfoxofshogo (james) uses lock down vise, and sandbag shelters when doing crazy stuff, i know he takes the extra steps to ensure he's safe to himself and others.. but many people here don't know this, nor would a passer by reader newbie who happens to land here.

anyways, this is my 2 cents.. I've always said that the fastest bullet is not always the most accurate. its the predictable bullet that is accurate.

thanks,
Dan Rickard
Owner of Kaine Dies.

[GerryM]

YIKES"""" Good thing it,s a 700 Remington

[danr]

YIKES"""" Good thing it,s a 700 Remington

xfox uses a AR platform.. the rem 700 was heliman who didn't do crazy stuff.

[xfoxofshogo]

ok back on track 224 if you sewage then right they will not fly apart corbin makes a tool to cut the out side of the jackets on the 224 to help the expand has eney one tried this tool on some built s

[tbird1960]

Are the three previous posts in English or some other language???

[rasto]

I am not native speaker and english is not my mother tongue language but at least I am not messing this nice informative forum.

Today I finalized my core cutter and was able to get the weight of five bullets between 55.02-55.12gr what is not bad at all.
To remark with Kaine dies.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3895/imag0351m.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/imag0351m.jpg/)

[danr]

I am not native speaker and english is not my mother tongue language but at least I am not messing this nice informative forum.

Today I finalized my core cutter and was able to get the weight of five bullets between 55.02-55.12gr what is not bad at all.
To remark with Kaine dies.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3895/imag0351m.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/imag0351m.jpg/)

nice core wire cutter rasto.. really nice..

where did you get the lead wire from? wouldn't mind having a source on lead wire..

thanks,
Dan

[MightyThor]

Are the three previous posts in English or some other language???

It can sure be a chore to sort out, and the spell checker must be exhausted, but if you sound out most of it, you can sometimes get the gist. Xfox your posts are hard to read and that is a fact.

[rasto]

Dan no problem I can provide the contact to you but as you know it won't be reliable according it is all around the world.
I bought 27kg of lead wire in about 100$.

[xfoxofshogo]

sorry i do use a spell check win it works but even with it it some times will not give me the right words

[xfoxofshogo]

and i need to not post win im in need of sleep or tiring to do it fast

and like i post be for my spelling suck so drop it i know so let sleeping dogs lie

[sly mantis]

I have a lyman t-mag press (the one with the manual turret head, not a progressive). I was wondering i this would be strong enough to swage 22lr jackets?

[rasto]

I would not recommend but it is possible.
If you are working with raw lead and easy to be derimmed cases than without any issue.

[MightyThor]

I have a lyman t-mag press (the one with the manual turret head, not a progressive). I was wondering i this would be strong enough to swage 22lr jackets?

In my experience the force to create a 22 cal bullet from a 22 rim fire or from a commercial jacket is no greater than full length sizing a large rifle cartridge. For me, the most force is required in the derim process. The actual bullet forming is easier. different die sets will require different amounts of force so you are really dealing in generalities here. If you are sufficiently interested that you will invest in a set of dies, it should be no great effort to pick up a suitable used press if the Lyman does not perform to your satisfaction.

[newcastter]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124f0630c3890bb.jpg
55gr hollow points
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124f0630c39f815.jpg
Playin around and made this balistic tip with a soft air BB

[gabe123]

That looks so cool. Will the BB keep its shape over extended storage time, like 1 year?

[newcastter]

That looks so cool. Will the BB keep its shape over extended storage time, like 1 year?

I'm not sure but it should those BB's are hard and if you try to cut it it shatters

[Reload3006]

I'm not sure but it should those BB's are hard and if you try to cut it it shatters

they work better if you heat them ... but IMO they are still a poor option My avitar is .224s I swaged there is a better option than air soft.

[newcastter]

they work better if you heat them ... but IMO they are still a poor option My avitar is .224s I swaged there is a better option than air soft.

So what is better to use in swaging a balistic tip? I was just messin around but if there is something better to use I would like to know what it is.

[Reload3006]

ski binding plugs but they are really soft and damage easy.

[xfoxofshogo]

i been playing with plastic air soft bb and some plastic welding rod for fixing car bumbers i need to make a mold but i have found the air soft to be really hard and brake off ez the welding rod stuff is polyurthaing i think thats how you spell it and a ABC plastic its not hard but its not to soft but still deforms if drop

[newcastter]

I honestly like the soft air bb's cuz there hard yet formable, ever feel an actual ballistic tip its hard and not going to get damaged by dropping it having said that I do not believe a soft air bb is a "poor option" but I willl load them and shoot to see what happens.

[xfoxofshogo]

I honestly like the soft air bb's cuz there hard yet formable, ever feel an actual ballistic tip its hard and not going to get damaged by dropping it having said that I do not believe a soft air bb is a "poor option" but I willl load them and shoot to see what happens.

yes i to like how hard they are but the ones i have use brake if they fall off a table
im tiring to see if a poly mix or ABC with them will make them hard and brake less or just ABC be good or PVC even.

if they are to soft the hi speed of rpm s a lone will mess with them

which bb are you using i was tiring the glow in the dark ones mabe what you have is a better plastic

i do have some biodegradable one i have not tired melting yet they do not seem to brake up like the other ones win i crush them
o look my 9mm air soft glow in the dark built
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/184754f03c7a722871.jpg yes i was bored lol

[newcastter]

I'm using crossman .224 cal soft air yellow BB's. I did drop it on the floor a few times to check because I was concerned if it would break when chambering in my AR. I dont heat them or anything just drop a 45gr core seat it then a bb and seat it then point form and presto its done. I am looking forward to the point uniform punch/die to really finish these bullets off.

[rasto]

Mine creation of 61.6gr with a slight boat tail just for easier placing before seeding.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6955/img3299y.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/img3299y.jpg/)

You have to buy and try Dan's BOAT TAIL punch:idea:

PS the used case was made by REX (13.32gr, 15.616mm) which caused bending my press handle :-(

[Lizard333]

Mine creation of 61.6gr with a slight boat tail just for easier placing before seeding.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6955/img3299y.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/img3299y.jpg/)

You have to buy and try Dan's BOAT TAIL punch:idea:

PS the used case was made by REX (13.32gr, 15.616mm) which caused bending my press handle :-(

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that canalure (probly spelled that wrong), a little high?? Other than that great looking round.

[rasto]

Yes it is, but that kind of cannelure :-) is left-over the 22LR case.
Previous crimp of 22LR bullet.

[newcastter]

I was told that punch was not available yet...

[rasto]

You know not everybody is VIP tester :-)
Dan will respond for sure or contact him personally via PM or gmail but he prefers skype comm face to face.
I had spoke to him around 5h within a month nice guy :-)

[newcastter]

You know not everybody is VIP tester :-)
Dan will respond for sure or contact him personally via PM or gmail but he prefers skype comm face to face.
I had spoke to him around 5h within a month nice guy :-)

I too chat with him on skype he told me production was halted until some kinks were worked out.
Guess I'll PM him and see if I can get one.

[Lizard333]

That makes more sense. Gotcha.

[newcastter]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124f0cd3809e877.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124f0ccd45c83f1.jpg
I modified this LEE .224 sizing die in about 10 minutes with my dremel tool.
Now I can derim .17HMR cases and make my heavier bullets with a full jacket with the Kaine Dies.
Thats a 75gr bullet on the left and a derimmed .17HMR on the right

[Utah Shooter]

I love the 75 gr Hornady BTHP projectiles in my riffle. How do these shoot?

[newcastter]

I love the 75 gr Hornady BTHP projectiles in my riffle. How do these shoot?

I don't know I just finished it today, I need to get a mini chop saw to consintantly cut the cases/shoulders off plus I need more cases but I'm exited to get a few made to shoot.
I cut a little more off because my core was shorter I think I could go as high as 80gr with the same look. Utah you have corbins right? I bet you could do the same thing.

[Utah Shooter]

Not sure how many mag or hmr cases I have but if I run into some I will send em your way.

[xfoxofshogo]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124f0cd3809e877.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/195124f0ccd45c83f1.jpg
I modified this LEE .224 sizing die in about 10 minutes with my dremel tool.
Now I can derim .17HMR cases and make my heavier bullets with a full jacket with the Kaine Dies.
Thats a 75gr bullet on the left and a derimmed .17HMR on the right

y did you have to make a die for 17 HMR???

i use the same die that i use for 22lr and 22mag

o and check your cases with a magent im finding more and more brass plated steel and have found some 22lr like this and 17HMR

[newcastter]

The heads would pop off due to the case getting stuck in the die, this makes for a much smoother process

[danr]

The heads would pop off due to the case getting stuck in the die, this makes for a much smoother process

i have had this happen to me in testing.. this is because the 22 mag cases and 17 hmr's are just slightly thicker than 22LR cases. so when using the de-rimming die that comes with the set, the thicker cases have to stretch much more than normal.

i was able to do it successfully by heating up the 22 mag cases and 17 hmr's to RED hot with a blow torch for several seconds.. then allowed them to air cool. but many of them did pop the tops.

xfoxofshogo maybe able to do it easily with his set because his blued de-rimming bottom punch has warn more.. making it possible for the thicker cases not stretch so far. the combination of die cavity size and punch size limits how thick of a cases you can put though de-rimming.. enlarge the die cavity or reduce the thickness of the bottom punch would increase the total thickness of the cases it can handle.

great job converting the lee sizing die, i say if it works, it works.. that is all that matters. i have always supported people using their own idea's to achieve a goal.. and it looks as though you have done just that.. GREAT JOB.

if you ever need any help, please feel free to contact me anytime.

thank you,
Dan Rickard