Fact or fiction: 357 deflects off of car window and 30-06 bad brush gun

southpaw · 11-05-2009, 04:52 AM

I have heard that if you fire a 357 at the front window of a car it will not penetrate it. I thought that this was due to lack of kinetic energy but I was told that the bullet is imparted with too much spin to allow it to go through the glass.

I was also told that a 30-30 will not deflect as much as a 30-06 will when they strike a twig. The reason given was the same as with the 357, the 30-06 is spinning faster therefore it will deflect more. I have been wanting to do a experiment on this, just have not gotten a round toit yet.

I was wondering if any of the experts out there could enlighten me.

Thanks guys!!

Jerry Jr.

Blammer · 11-05-2009, 04:55 AM

spin, na

velocity, mass, and bullet construction are more important factors

pdawg_shooter · 11-05-2009, 05:10 AM

The myth of "brush buster" is just that, a myth. I have tried every load I have loaded on a home made rig using various dowel rods to shoot through. Even my 45.70 deflects if it clips the side of a dowel. As for a .357 deflecting of glass, IMHO that would depend on the shape of the bullet and the angle it impacted the glass. Anyone out there with a junk car and a .357 want to run a few test?

Hurricane · 11-05-2009, 05:15 AM

Both statements are wrong. A 357 Mag will easily go through a car windshield and kill whoever is inside. Test it on your car but be sure noone is in or behind the car. The brush gun problem has been tested many times and written up in almost every gun magazine. The real truth is that no rifle can be depended on to shoot through brush without deflecting. They all deflect, or may deflect, if they hit brush. The best idea is to shoot throught open spaces in the brush so that the bullets don't hit anything on the way to the target. Which on will deflect the most at any given time depends on luck alone.

cajun shooter · 11-05-2009, 05:22 AM

As a police firearms instructor I did a lot of deflection test with the FBI. There are several variables in each test that we preformed. Most all 357 rds that I had tested myself went through the wind shield and then through a piece of 3/4 in plywood. The experts in that field say that a bullet that passes through 3/4 in plywood will deliver a fatal wound. I can't say that if you shoot at the very top curve of the windshield that it will pass through. The 158 gr Winchester metal piercing which is no longer made would shoot into a engine block and dis-able it. I can't count all the vehicles that I have done test on as we had a endless supply from the wrecking yard. The standard 38 spl 158 gr lead when fired from the rear would travel to the front seat and pass through the plywood. Now, any of these rounds that hit any door gear or seat reenforcement would have an effect on the rounds. We had poor results with any rounds that were less than the 357 class such as 9mm, 380, 32, 22 and so on. I can not give you help on the 30-06 or 30-30 debate. We even taught police officers how to deflect shoot some one hiding behind a vehicle or some other cover. You can shoot a round at the side or top of several things such as sidewalks, buildings and even cars to hit something beyond.

cheese1566 · 11-05-2009, 05:23 AM

Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows."

Could this be an origin?

softpoint · 11-05-2009, 05:28 AM

I have done a bit of reading on this before, but since I've not done any testing myself, can only offer the conclusion of others.
The general opinion is that the real definition of a "brush gun"is a shorter, lighter rifle appropriatly sighted for short range, quick shooting. A large caliber capable of killing quickly and penetrating deeply from poor shot angles.
The opinion is also that no round will penetrate any substantial amount of brush without deflection. And my .02 worth is that the '06 with a 200 or 220 grain bullet would be better than a 30/30 because of sectional density. If anything, the higher rotational spin would help,rather than hurt .
Any meaningful test would be very hard to carry out. How would a test be arranged that would ensure the different bullets hit the same amount of twigs, or at the same angle or the same diameter or hardness?
Atest could be, and has been carried out many times with many calibers on auto windshields. Most all rounds will go through, all rounds will be deflected somewhat, depending on velocity, bullet weight ,SD,bullet design, angle of impact, properties of the glass itself. I certainly wouldn't want to have to take cover behind a windshield with someone firing at it with a .357!

parson48 · 11-05-2009, 06:27 AM

Couple of years back I was hunting with a Rem. 870 using 1 oz. slugs. Shot at a big doe at 30 yards, and she ran off untouched! I was shocked when she didn't fall over. I always check carefully for blood, hair, or any sign of a hit.

Looked carefully around my spot and found a small branch, less that 1/4", that had deflected that 12 ga. slug.

Just my personal experience with "brush busting".
parson48

OutHuntn84 · 11-05-2009, 06:33 AM

I think they guys at www.theboxotruth.com have already done the R&D on this subject and a few others you might find interesting.

felix · 11-05-2009, 06:35 AM

The 41 mag has more penetration capabilities using WW, water dropped especially, than any other pistol caliber using RN style boolits. Seen that too many times in practice, shooting through trees, steel plates, etc. The diameter of the boolit seems to be paramount with the likes of using WW or similiar. ... felix

dsmjon · 11-05-2009, 07:12 AM

FWIW, I know one of our state's HP armorers. Their testing of 9mm, 45cal, and 357sig led them to the 357 b/c it was the only caliber that would consistently break through automotive glass, and into the target behind the glass. Some of the 9's and 45's would either penetrate the glass and deflect, or simply bounce off of the glass.

lunicy · 11-05-2009, 07:38 AM

IMHO you can't rely on any bullet doing anything. I can see a 357 bouncing off a windshield and the next one penetrating. Bullet are just odd like that.

Just like when a man gets shot in the head with a .45 and lives, while some guy gets shot with a pellet gun and dies.

unpredictable oddities

Rocky Raab · 11-05-2009, 08:12 AM

Do remember that a .22 will almost always ricochet off water. It's an angle of impact thing. A bullet striking anywhere near to perpendicular will almost always penetrate, but if it strikes at an acute angle, the chances go up immensely that it will simply deflect.

"Brush bucking" is a total myth. You have a rounded object hitting a rounded object. Even the slightest misalignment will result in deflection.

405 · 11-05-2009, 09:21 AM

Both urban legend/coffee shop cr*p. Unfortunately, when I go to coffee I have to endure similar stuff on most any segwayed subject

exile · 11-05-2009, 09:25 AM

I have a friend in law enforcement who put several .357's into a windshield in an effort to stop a bank robbery. All rounds shed their jacket and did not penetrate the windshield. He thought that was more of a function of bullet jacket construction than the .357 round per se. He said if he could carry anything he wanted it would be a 10mm.

My grandfather was a highway patrolman from 1933-1958. He said .38's always bounced off windshields. He carried the .38 on inspection day and a .45 the rest of the time.

(Armchair information I realize, but that is what I have to offer.)

exile

danski26 · 11-05-2009, 10:04 AM

My brother sisters uncles cousin shot at Bonny and Clide with there 357 sigs and the bullets bounced of the side window glass.......where do people come up with these things?????

Heavy lead · 11-05-2009, 10:11 AM

Lesson learned, don't shoot brush. As far as windshields, they're much too expensive to shoot, roll the side window down.

wallenba · 11-05-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheese1566

Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows."

Could this be an origin?

If they threw the gun maybe, shot the bullet...no. A few years back some punk shot out over 40 car windows in one night locally, with a .177 pellet rifle.

Tom W. · 11-05-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by softpoint

The general opinion is that the real definition of a "brush gun"is a shorter, lighter rifle appropriatly sighted for short range, quick shooting. A large caliber capable of killing quickly and penetrating deeply from poor shot angles.

Yup. Something that's easy to handle in the thick stuff....Handguns shine in that respect.

Geraldo · 11-05-2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutHuntn84

I think they guys at www.theboxotruth.com have already done the R&D on this subject and a few others you might find interesting.

Their results are similar to what our SWAT testing showed. The bottom line on windshields is that you can punch holes, but it's a crapshoot after that as to what happens to the bullet.

11-05-2009, 04:52 AM	#1
southpaw Boolit Master Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: NEPA Posts: 270	Fact or fiction: 357 deflects off of car window and 30-06 bad brush gun I have heard that if you fire a 357 at the front window of a car it will not penetrate it. I thought that this was due to lack of kinetic energy but I was told that the bullet is imparted with too much spin to allow it to go through the glass. I was also told that a 30-30 will not deflect as much as a 30-06 will when they strike a twig. The reason given was the same as with the 357, the 30-06 is spinning faster therefore it will deflect more. I have been wanting to do a experiment on this, just have not gotten a round toit yet. I was wondering if any of the experts out there could enlighten me. Thanks guys!! Jerry Jr. __________________ VOTE 2010! Throw them out! Every last one of them! (Feel free to add this to your sig. Spread the word!) You can't buy experience, but you'll pay for it. .... but what do I know, I'm just a dumb farmer. My Dad. NRA LIFE MEMBER

11-05-2009, 04:55 AM	#2
Blammer Vendor Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: vmthtr@charter.net/ Asheville, NC Posts: 4,535	spin, na velocity, mass, and bullet construction are more important factors __________________ When your ship comes in, make sure you are willing to unload it. The consciousness of good intentions disdains ambiguity. NRA Instructor for Basic Pistol North Carolina CCH permit instructor Questions about GC's? Ordering? Price? Instock? go here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...hlight=blammer To acually order GC's go here http://groupbuys.dnsalias.com/login.asp

11-05-2009, 05:10 AM	#3
pdawg_shooter Boolit Master Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: S.W. kansas Posts: 1,206	The myth of "brush buster" is just that, a myth. I have tried every load I have loaded on a home made rig using various dowel rods to shoot through. Even my 45.70 deflects if it clips the side of a dowel. As for a .357 deflecting of glass, IMHO that would depend on the shape of the bullet and the angle it impacted the glass. Anyone out there with a junk car and a .357 want to run a few test? __________________ Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress.... but then I repeat myself. -Mark Twain

11-05-2009, 05:22 AM	#5
cajun shooter Black Powder 100% Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Livingston, La. 20 miles east of Baton Rouge, La. Posts: 1,891	As a police firearms instructor I did a lot of deflection test with the FBI. There are several variables in each test that we preformed. Most all 357 rds that I had tested myself went through the wind shield and then through a piece of 3/4 in plywood. The experts in that field say that a bullet that passes through 3/4 in plywood will deliver a fatal wound. I can't say that if you shoot at the very top curve of the windshield that it will pass through. The 158 gr Winchester metal piercing which is no longer made would shoot into a engine block and dis-able it. I can't count all the vehicles that I have done test on as we had a endless supply from the wrecking yard. The standard 38 spl 158 gr lead when fired from the rear would travel to the front seat and pass through the plywood. Now, any of these rounds that hit any door gear or seat reenforcement would have an effect on the rounds. We had poor results with any rounds that were less than the 357 class such as 9mm, 380, 32, 22 and so on. I can not give you help on the 30-06 or 30-30 debate. We even taught police officers how to deflect shoot some one hiding behind a vehicle or some other cover. You can shoot a round at the side or top of several things such as sidewalks, buildings and even cars to hit something beyond. __________________ Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81805; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Border Vigliante; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat

11-05-2009, 05:23 AM	#6
cheese1566 Professional Tinkerer Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Black Hills, South Dakota Posts: 802	Dirty Harry was asked by his new female partner in one of the movies why he carrid the 44 mag. If I recall, his response was that he "seen 38's and 357's bounce off of car windows." Could this be an origin? __________________ Visit my projects at: http://cheese1566gunsandstuff.shutterfly.com/

11-05-2009, 05:15 AM	#4
Hurricane Boolit Man Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 131	Both statements are wrong. A 357 Mag will easily go through a car windshield and kill whoever is inside. Test it on your car but be sure noone is in or behind the car. The brush gun problem has been tested many times and written up in almost every gun magazine. The real truth is that no rifle can be depended on to shoot through brush without deflecting. They all deflect, or may deflect, if they hit brush. The best idea is to shoot throught open spaces in the brush so that the bullets don't hit anything on the way to the target. Which on will deflect the most at any given time depends on luck alone.

11-05-2009, 05:28 AM	#7
softpoint Boolit Master Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Bryan-College Station Tx Posts: 730	I have done a bit of reading on this before, but since I've not done any testing myself, can only offer the conclusion of others. The general opinion is that the real definition of a "brush gun"is a shorter, lighter rifle appropriatly sighted for short range, quick shooting. A large caliber capable of killing quickly and penetrating deeply from poor shot angles. The opinion is also that no round will penetrate any substantial amount of brush without deflection. And my .02 worth is that the '06 with a 200 or 220 grain bullet would be better than a 30/30 because of sectional density. If anything, the higher rotational spin would help,rather than hurt . Any meaningful test would be very hard to carry out. How would a test be arranged that would ensure the different bullets hit the same amount of twigs, or at the same angle or the same diameter or hardness? Atest could be, and has been carried out many times with many calibers on auto windshields. Most all rounds will go through, all rounds will be deflected somewhat, depending on velocity, bullet weight ,SD,bullet design, angle of impact, properties of the glass itself. I certainly wouldn't want to have to take cover behind a windshield with someone firing at it with a .357! __________________ Cast Boolits, Where lead balloons go over....

11-05-2009, 06:27 AM	#8
parson48 Boolit Bub Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 43	Couple of years back I was hunting with a Rem. 870 using 1 oz. slugs. Shot at a big doe at 30 yards, and she ran off untouched! I was shocked when she didn't fall over. I always check carefully for blood, hair, or any sign of a hit. Looked carefully around my spot and found a small branch, less that 1/4", that had deflected that 12 ga. slug. Just my personal experience with "brush busting". parson48

11-05-2009, 06:33 AM	#9
OutHuntn84 Boolit Master Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Shawnee, Oklahoma Posts: 353	I think they guys at www.theboxotruth.com have already done the R&D on this subject and a few others you might find interesting.

11-05-2009, 06:35 AM	#10
felix Boolit Master Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: fort smith ar Posts: 7,791	The 41 mag has more penetration capabilities using WW, water dropped especially, than any other pistol caliber using RN style boolits. Seen that too many times in practice, shooting through trees, steel plates, etc. The diameter of the boolit seems to be paramount with the likes of using WW or similiar. ... felix __________________ felix

11-05-2009, 07:12 AM	#11
dsmjon Boolit Master Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 472	FWIW, I know one of our state's HP armorers. Their testing of 9mm, 45cal, and 357sig led them to the 357 b/c it was the only caliber that would consistently break through automotive glass, and into the target behind the glass. Some of the 9's and 45's would either penetrate the glass and deflect, or simply bounce off of the glass.

11-05-2009, 07:38 AM	#12
lunicy Boolit Master Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: PRNJ on the shore Posts: 355	IMHO you can't rely on any bullet doing anything. I can see a 357 bouncing off a windshield and the next one penetrating. Bullet are just odd like that. Just like when a man gets shot in the head with a .45 and lives, while some guy gets shot with a pellet gun and dies. unpredictable oddities __________________ Come and take them, Boolits first. Zombie hunter, Lic# 3006

11-05-2009, 08:12 AM	#13
Rocky Raab Boolit Master Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Utah Posts: 934	Do remember that a .22 will almost always ricochet off water. It's an angle of impact thing. A bullet striking anywhere near to perpendicular will almost always penetrate, but if it strikes at an acute angle, the chances go up immensely that it will simply deflect. "Brush bucking" is a total myth. You have a rounded object hitting a rounded object. Even the slightest misalignment will result in deflection. __________________ Please visit my shooting articles at www.reloadingroom.com and my Vietnam novels at www.rockyraab.com

11-05-2009, 09:21 AM	#14
405 Boolit Master Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,156	whoee Both urban legend/coffee shop crp. Unfortunately, when I go to coffee I have to endure similar stuff on most any segwayed subject __________________ "You can't have no idea how little I care"*- Montelius Walsh NRA Life NATCA Life

11-05-2009, 09:25 AM	#15
exile Boolit Master Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Eastern Nebraska Posts: 755	I have a friend in law enforcement who put several .357's into a windshield in an effort to stop a bank robbery. All rounds shed their jacket and did not penetrate the windshield. He thought that was more of a function of bullet jacket construction than the .357 round per se. He said if he could carry anything he wanted it would be a 10mm. My grandfather was a highway patrolman from 1933-1958. He said .38's always bounced off windshields. He carried the .38 on inspection day and a .45 the rest of the time. (Armchair information I realize, but that is what I have to offer.) exile __________________ “The reflection upon my situation and that of this army produces many an uneasy hour when all around me are wrapped in sleep. Few people know the predicament we are in.” - General George Washington, 14 Jan., 1776

11-05-2009, 10:04 AM	#16
danski26 Boolit Master Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Green Bay WI Posts: 615	My brother sisters uncles cousin shot at Bonny and Clide with there 357 sigs and the bullets bounced of the side window glass.......where do people come up with these things????? __________________ Semper Fi

11-05-2009, 10:11 AM	#17
Heavy lead Boolit Master Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Paw Paw, Michigan Posts: 2,612	Lesson learned, don't shoot brush. As far as windshields, they're much too expensive to shoot, roll the side window down.