45-70 carbine load

[StrawHat]

Good morning
Back to the boolit itself....
Back in the Army Horse days troopers were picked by size and weight. Remember a horse can carry only so much weight and the rider is the main factor in keeping weight to a workable condition. Most troopers were of less than 150 pounds...

Yep, the troopers were built more like Barney Fife than John Wanye or Ward Bond.

[Don McDowell]

Oh good lord, troopers never fired their carbines while mounted. IF they fired from the mounted position , that's what the colt was for.
When they fired their carbines it was from skirmish lines and that's why they rode 3 abreast. The middle man held/secured the horses while the outside troopers fired.
The army also rightly so determined that the basic use of the carbine did not need an affective range past 600 yds, so there was no need to issue a load to the mounted troops that went beyond that. And up until the late 1880's even the infantry was issued 405 gr bullets but that load was the 70 gr load and was rated to 800 yds. ( Matter of fact I've seen that load shoot quite well at 1/2 mile) The 500 gr load came to the infantry just slightly before the issuance of the Krags.

[Larry Gibson]

I have a bunch of 405 gr boolits I'd like to load up, thinking of 55 grs FFg, .062 veggie wad and cast boolit.
Anybody tried this load? Fun to shoot? Accurate?

Tom

Lots of info on different loads but I'll just mention the carbine load i use in my H&R LBH carbine. It duplicates the original 45-55 load's ballistics and is regulated to the M1878 type sight's range marking. I can also shoot it all day long without cleaning or the fouling hurting accuracy. One time over 100 rounds was fired through my carbine without cleaing. Accuracy (3 moa with original M1878 sights) was the same with the final rounds as with the first. It cleaned up without problems and there was no hard fouling in the bore and no leading. I use a duplex load as developed following Spence Wolf's techniques from his book.

I use two bullets; the Lyman 457124 and Lee's 458-405-HB. Both are generally cast of 30-1 or 20-1 lead - tin alloy. The Lee bullet is a faithful repro of the M1873 bullet. I make the lube with 5 parts beeswax to 4 parts olive oil. I size the bullets .4615 simply because that's the sizer I use for my original TD. The groove depth on the H&R is .458 so it works fine. I have also shot both bullets "as cast" with equal results.

I use R-P or W-W cases. Cases are partial or neck sized. I also use pretty much any standard LR primer i have on hand. My testing with duplex loads is that the brand of primer makes little difference.

I put 5 gr of 4759 over the primer and then 49 gr of Goex Cartridge powder on top. No compression die is needed. I just close the case mouth on the Lee 458-405-HB's front driving band and lightly crimp over the front of the Lyman's 457124 front driving band. This gives mild compression to the powder charge. Velocity is right at 1150 fps out of my LBH carbine.

This makes for very good shooting loads.

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Oh good lord, troopers never fired their carbines while mounted. IF they fired from the mounted position , that's what the colt was for.
When they fired their carbines it was from skirmish lines and that's why they rode 3 abreast. The middle man held/secured the horses while the outside troopers fired.

"NEVER fired thier carbines when mounted"...
Maybe the manual for Calvary opperations says dismount.... But there are personal testimonies of troopers firing carbines from horseback. Regulations back then are as they were when I was riding M60A1 tanks.. Guidelines. Troopers will do what needs done.
BUT I totally agree... The Lord is Good !
Mike in Peru

[Don McDowell]

To much history from Hollweird me thinks....

[twildman]

According to Spence Wolf, the first Govt. carbine loads had a wad, but the arsenal soon found it to not be necessary, and dispensed with it. Simple is good.
Terry

[45 2.1]

According to Spence Wolf, the first Govt. carbine loads had a wad, but the arsenal soon found it to not be necessary, and dispensed with it. Simple is good.
Terry

I believe the report stated that some of the wads were blowing into the hollow base and sticking there causing wild shots .

[twildman]

I believe the report stated that some of the wads were blowing into the hollow base and sticking there causing wild shots .

You're correct, now that you jog the memory...

[Tom-ADC]

Larry, thanks, I have some 4759 powder coming I'll try that and I have the Lee mold plus 30-1 lead ready to go.

[Catshooter]

Don,

"Never" is an awful big word. I think Mike is correct.

Larry,

Very interesting post, thanks for the data.


Cat

[Don McDowell]

Well its not hard to figure out. Grab youself a McClellan saddle load it and yourself with all the gear strap that trapdoor on and let us know how you fared.

[Rafsob]

I use the wad/cookie to separate the BP from the cream of wheat. My bullets are lubed and don't need anymore lube.

If you are shooting an original carbine like I am, I wouldn't use any duplex load in my gun!!! These loads scare me in original, soft metal guns!!! Plus the originals are high value pieces!!!

[Larry Gibson]

I use the wad/cookie to separate the BP from the cream of wheat. My bullets are lubed and don't need anymore lube.

If you are shooting an original carbine like I am, I wouldn't use any duplex load in my gun!!! These loads scare me in original, soft metal guns!!! Plus the originals are high value pieces!!!

Properly developed duplex loads are quite safe, no need to be "scared". I have pressure tested BP, BP substitute and duplex loads (45-55 & 45-70 using 4759 and GOEX 3F) using 405 gr (Lee 459-405-HB) & 500 gr (Rapine 460500) cast bullets. Proper duplex loads (as I listed in the previous thread) actually develop less peak psi and a slower time pressure curve than the equivelent load of BP does (GOEX 3F & Cartridge). Thus they are actually safer to use in your original TD just as in mine (M1884).

BTW; the carbine duplex load I mention in my above post runs at 20,100 psi(M43) which is quite a bit less than the SAAMI MAP of 28,000 psi for original TDs like yours.

No reason to have any "scare" with properly developed duplex loads as they can easily be the same and as safe as any other load, even a BP load.

Larry Gibson

[StrawHat]

Just prior to the acceptance of the Krag, Springfield was experimenting with smokeless loads for the trapdoor. They also used trapdoor actions to test the barrel steels being considered for the Krag. Properly loaded, smokeless is not a problem.