Cast Boolits For Self Defense?

[Recluse]

Since his name has come up so many times, maybe somebody knows how to reach him and let him have his day in court, here. I admit being influenced by his writings from way back. Now I want the facts. Who was sued? Where and when? I took it for granted up 'til now he knew what he was talking about, he surely must know something to go and give so many people the idea handloads are a bad idea for defensive ammo. It only seems fair to give the guy a chance to defend his statements, he's getting a ass whipping here!! Let's invite him to visit our forum.

The primary case he bases his opinion(s) on was a case in which a wife committed suicide using her husband's reloads. (Deceased) wife's attorney made a big deal about the "lethality" of handloads, blah blah blah. Ayoob testified in the case, to the best of my recollection, but no joy--husband was convicted or sued for some sort of negligence, etc etc.

Deal is, I would've appealed that case before the ink dried on the verdict. The judge was an idiot, the (deceased) wife's attorney was an *******, and on and on.

But one case, while making for a case study, does not set precedent for all fifty states. Good example are the states which were smart enough to pass the Castle Doctrine laws that nullify any attempts at prosecution--civil or criminal--when a grand-jury no-bills the shooter. In other jurisdictions, if the DA decides not to prosecute, civil liability also goes out the window.

As it should be.

Ayoob, I'm sure, is used to getting trashed every bit as much as he's used to being worshipped.

I would much rather listen to the opinions of someone with Jeff Cooper's background and experience, or anyone who has had to fire his or her gun in anger/defense of self.

[dualsport]

I would take Jeff Cooper's advice any day on the subject of winning gun fights. Legal advice is another thing. There's a lot of emotion around this issue for some reason, I would just like to know what the facts are. Whether or not cast bullets or handloads are effective isn't the point, exposure to liability unnescessarily is. Maybe there's some legal professionals here who have some knowledge on the subject. If that suicide case is all there is this is a real tempest in a teacup. If someone knows what magazine Ayoob writes for let me know and I'll try contacting him, maybe we'll get to the source. It'd be kinda funny if it turns out he can back up his position with facts. In the mean time I'll continue to keep factory ammo for home defense, I don't see any good reason not to. And I love my boolits as much as the next guy, just about all I shoot. EDIT; Just saw the post"help me find the truth". Looks like I'm beating a dead horse, I'll probably stop worrying about this now. It really doesn't sound like handloads can get you in all that much trouble, like the man said, depending on where you live, you'll get sued anyway. Might as well use some ammo you're proud of!

[Russel Nash]

Rocky Raab wrote:

Well, Russell, that's a bit like saying there is a guy near St Louis who is a child rapist and murderer. Now, YOU're near St Louis, so ...

And that's about how much your story applies to all other gun writers.

Rocky Raab also has as his signature line:

Please visit my shooting articles at www.reloadingroom.com and my Vietnam novels at www.rockyraab.com

Well, if your writing ability is anywhere near your ability of compiling comparisons/analogies...well... I guess I won't be clicking on your links any time soon.

And for what it is worth to ya... I have been published myself. No, it wasn't anything to do with guns, but I was still under pressure from the publisher to mention certain advertisers in my article. And the editors made dang sure they were in there as well as adding their own embellishments.

It is not too much of a stretch in my imagination to picture gun writers under the same pressure especially when they receive free gear and gadgets (aka a bribe) as part of their "testing and evaluation" process.

I will stick with Bill O'Reilly's mantra from several years back: the purpose of any medium is to sell you something.

The moment that I feel I am being advertised or marketed to and it feels like someone is trying to pry into my wallet... I go "shields up". Also, my BS meter swings to about the 7/8ths mark.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Massad Ayoob has never been in a shooting where anything was in danger.

Well now, how many times have you shot somebody? Been shot at? These things are certainly important to know before I take your opinion of anything seriously, right?

In answer to the original question, I would gladly carry my own cast boolits to defend myself. In fact, my S&W Model 27 is currently loaded with a 358429 boolit.

[Rocky Raab]

Russel, you have one thing dead right: it's in your imagination. Why you seem so bitter about people who write is beyond me. Envy, perhaps?

Don't bother denying it. Because you've been published, you must have an ulterior motive; by your own claim.

[jlchucker]

Unless I can't avoid it (ex. 22 long rifle) I don't buy factory ammo. Also, unless I really need to, I don't load much else except boolets that I've cast for myself and my own guns. I've never shot anybody but I guess that if that came up, what would come out of the barrel would probably be a cast bullet from a handload. The lawyers would love it, I'd go bankrupt, and I really don't know what would happen next--but then again, neither would the perp know who'd have started it all in the first place.

[Recluse]

Well now, how many times have you shot somebody? Been shot at? These things are certainly important to know before I take your opinion of anything seriously, right?

Couple of thoughts:

1. There are a number of us around here who have been shot at and who have returned fire, however

2. We do not hold ourselves up to be end-all authorities on such matters such as Ayoob and other gun-writers do.

And that, sir, is the difference.

I often look at such writers as "unmarried marriage counselors."

[MT Gianni]

If your answer is no, would you ask the person assaulting you to stop so you could go get some factory ammo if you only had cast in your gun?

[Doc_Stihl]

I think the old mantra of "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" holds all the points.

If the worst case scenario happened and you had to use a weapon, it's a null point on what's in the pipe. Your life is gonna get turned on it's head anyhow, might as well use what you feel comfortable with.

Just my $.02 from my ignorant view.
(FWIW, my 1911 is loaded with 225Gr Soft cast HP's. If I need to use it, I want the 2nd and 3rd shots to be ineffective, ie the problem was solved with the 1st one)

[oldhickory]

My view is to use the most effective arm and ammunition possible. By effective I mean I want any attack STOPPED NOW no matter how much damage is done to the leftist criminal! If that means carrying around a 12lb Napoleon loaded with double canister...So be it!

[Trey45]

The way I see, you shoot to stop the threat. If 6 shots of my handloads through my Dan Wesson don't stop the threat, I'll grab my shotgun that has factory loads in it, if that doesn't stop the threat, I'll grab my M4 with 30 rounds of factory in it. If that doesn't stop the threat, I'm calling arty or air support or something, because apparently I'm in the wrong fire fight.

Someone said, are you going to ask the bad to stop his advance so you can reload with factory ammo? There's no TIME OUTS in a fire fight, you use what you have loaded and shoot to stop the threat.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Couple of thoughts:

1. There are a number of us around here who have been shot at and who have returned fire, however

2. We do not hold ourselves up to be end-all authorities on such matters such as Ayoob and other gun-writers do.

And that, sir, is the difference.

I often look at such writers as "unmarried marriage counselors."

But the point remains, does Clint Smith not know what he's about, since he hasn't shot anybody? Does Joe the Crackhead that lives on the street know what he's talking about because he has?

I think using such a thing is a pretty poor indicator of determining whether somebody knows or doesn't know about defense.

[sundog]

Well, let's see. In the days before jacketed bullets existed, people who defended themselves successfully and legally with a firearm used..., hmmmm..., what?

Soooo, what's changed?

[Char-Gar]

This thread makes me very happy. As a former Criminal Defense Lawyer and Prosecutor, I fought the Ayoub generated myth for many years, with the result, that many folks told me I didn't know what Iwas talking about. Ayoub was the authority as far as they were concerned.
It is utter nonsense and always has been. It wasn't just me, as other shooter/lawyers joined the fray.

It took time, but at last folks are understanding just how bogus all of this nonsense about using handloads for defensive purposes is.

Some folks will continue to use factory loads because they want the R and D that goes into that stuff.

Me... A Keith SWC in 44 and 45 caliber are awsome defense loads. I keep my 1911 loaded with good old 452423 over 4.8/Bulllsye. In a 38 Spl., .380 ACP or a 9mm I want some of that good stuff made by Cor-Bon or Buffalo Bore.

[softpoint]

IMHO, the point is , if you DO wind up in court , you'will get everything thrown at you that can be thrown at you by the opposing attorney or prosecutor. So you used a 12 guage rather than a .22 or a .25 auto. Weren't you aware that a 12 guage is much more deadly than a .22.? You used a 12 guage, (or a .45, or a .50AE, or.....fill in the blank) because you fully intended to kill. Do you own a smaller weapon than the one you used? This is mantra intended to make you look bad, and in the end ,a competent jury /and or judge should see it for what it is. Again, States are different.Maybe Charger, who has more legal experience than I ,as I'm not an attorney ,can weigh in on this? Here in Texas, if the shooting was justifiable in the first place, and the grand jury declined it, there is near 100% chance that that will be the end of it
Depending on the circumstances, and maybe the location the outcome may be different. Still, better to get "the coals raked over you" than 6 feet of soil raked over you! Always better to watch the grass grow from the top side!

[EMC45]

The primary case he bases his opinion(s) on was a case in which a wife committed suicide using her husband's reloads. (Deceased) wife's attorney made a big deal about the "lethality" of handloads, blah blah blah. Ayoob testified in the case, to the best of my recollection, but no joy--husband was convicted or sued for some sort of negligence, etc etc.

Deal is, I would've appealed that case before the ink dried on the verdict. The judge was an idiot, the (deceased) wife's attorney was an *******, and on and on.

But one case, while making for a case study, does not set precedent for all fifty states. Good example are the states which were smart enough to pass the Castle Doctrine laws that nullify any attempts at prosecution--civil or criminal--when a grand-jury no-bills the shooter. In other jurisdictions, if the DA decides not to prosecute, civil liability also goes out the window.

As it should be.

Ayoob, I'm sure, is used to getting trashed every bit as much as he's used to being worshipped.

I would much rather listen to the opinions of someone with Jeff Cooper's background and experience, or anyone who has had to fire his or her gun in anger/defense of self.

If I'm not mistaken this happened in Phillipsburg NJ in the early 80s. IIRC the load was 2.7gr. Bullseye under a hollowbase WC. Definitely not a barn burner. Typical knee jerk reaction from the NJ crowd though!

[acemedic13]

Well, let's see. In the days before jacketed bullets existed, people who defended themselves successfully and legally with a firearm used..., hmmmm..., what?

Soooo, what's changed?

Very good point there......

I never shot anybody on the civilain side but I have been in more than a few firefights, and have often heard some very fundamental ...lets say.....Irregularities with Mr. saddam the boobs theories..... Only saying what I know from what i have done, not what I think or heard. And I darned sure dont know it all.


I'm also not a lawyer. I do know the laws here where I live. I have asked this very same question to one of our D.A.'s and several police officers. They all told me it makes no difference what round was used, though they said it could possibly be argued, but what cant be argued in court? A jury might think different, but if it's not allowed to be used as evidence, it really does'nt matter. What does matter is your confidence and ability in your ammo in a firefight. If your hung up on "is this gonna do what I want" thoughts. Your not thinking the right thoughts. I like to carry ammo I shoot regulary and know is consistent with my arms and abilities. Thats what is really important. I promise you, cast, jacketed, rubber or whatever you get shot with is gonna cause some harm when it hits the right place with enough force...Just saying...

[mike in co]

IMHO, the point is , if you DO wind up in court , you'will get everything thrown at you that can be thrown at you by the opposing attorney or prosecutor. So you used a 12 guage rather than a .22 or a .25 auto. Weren't you aware that a 12 guage is much more deadly than a .22.? You used a 12 guage, (or a .45, or a .50AE, or.....fill in the blank) because you fully intended to kill. Do you own a smaller weapon than the one you used? This is mantra intended to make you look bad, and in the end ,a competent jury /and or judge should see it for what it is. Again, States are different.Maybe Charger, who has more legal experience than I ,as I'm not an attorney ,can weigh in on this? Here in Texas, if the shooting was justifiable in the first place, and the grand jury declined it, there is near 100% chance that that will be the end of it
Depending on the circumstances, and maybe the location the outcome may be different. Still, better to get "the coals raked over you" than 6 feet of soil raked over you! Always better to watch the grass grow from the top side!

again...it does not matter that the defense is whinning...your attorney should point out the use of deadly force MEANS JUST THAT. shoot to kill...the intent is to stop the threat . there is no such thing as the "threat was only enough for a wounding" or "only enough for a small gun".....this is a stupid concern......
get real with your senarios......

[JSnover]

Well, let's see. In the days before jacketed bullets existed, people who defended themselves successfully and legally with a firearm used..., hmmmm..., what?

Soooo, what's changed?

Plenty has changed, but when cast/black was all we had it was perfect.... until something else came along.

If I aim a .36 caliber cap and ball revolver at someone, he'd better behave. But it won't be my first choice for defense because I have other options.

[softpoint]

again...it does not matter that the defense is whinning...your attorney should point out the use of deadly force MEANS JUST THAT. shoot to kill...the intent is to stop the threat . there is no such thing as the "threat was only enough for a wounding" or "only enough for a small gun".....this is a stupid concern......
get real with your senarios......

You are right that that is stupid whining,but it goes on all the time in courtrooms. Not on this particular subject, but on lots of things. So it is a possible real scenario, And yes, your lawyer should immediately object to the relevancy of such, and point out what you just said.
While I'm no attorney, I did own a public shooting range and was sued over the noise issue by a landowner near me. I heard all kinds of whining from his attorneys. And now there is a law in this state that would preclude that kind of suit even being filed, as long as the range is outside the corporate city limits and is not in an otherwise restricted area such as a subdivision.
FWIW, we did win against that suit in a bench trial. At a cost of 10,000, though, not much by todays standards, but a lot of money to try to make back out of a small public range.
And like I said earlier, I carry my own reloads in my carry pistols with my own cast bullets. I hope I never have to use them, but whatever will be ,will be.
Dang, I was just thinkin' how many wheelweights and nice molds I coulda had with that 10K. Plus a couple of rifles!☺