Best twist rate for rifled musket?

Slogg76 · 11-03-2009, 08:46 AM

I was planning to start saving so that I can replace my Zouave and Hawkins that were stolen a few years ago. I was leaning towards a 3-band Enfield replica. They all look about the same to me, but I noticed the twist rate was different among different manufactures. I was planning on shooting minies and I figured a 1:48 would probably be more accurate, but I don't think that is historically accurate. Anyways, I figured this was the best place to ask. My Zouave loved minies dropped from Lee molds, but I can not remember what the twist rate was in that particular musket.

FL-Flinter · 11-04-2009, 06:30 PM

I'm not up on the original mini shooters but IIRC, most had a twist around 1:60
The mini is nose-heavy and has the skirt drag, they don't need much twist.

10 ga · 11-04-2009, 06:53 PM

For round balls and the old fashioned nose heavy minis the traditional twist was approx 1/72. I have a 58 Cabelas Hawken with 1/48 and it shoots round balls, minis and sabots good. I use 110 gr. FFF Swiss behind .565 roundballs and it shoots great. 2" groups at 50 yd and under 5" at 100. Of course it slams you pretty hard too. That is my hunting load. For plinking I shoot 60 gr. FF or even F and it is still accurate and mild recoil. That load just shoots 2" lower at 50 yd. Hope this helps. 10 ga

Slogg76 · 11-05-2009, 05:50 PM

thanks for the replies. Sounds like I can't lose either way.

northmn · 11-06-2009, 05:36 AM

If my memory serves, the original Enfield has a "gain twist" that started at 1-72 or so at the breech and gain to a rate of 1-48 at the muzzle. Fouling was a big issue in military muskets for continued reloading. A 1-48 would likely be more accurate with todays use.

Northmn

Buckshot · 11-06-2009, 11:09 PM

...............I don't recal now if the 1855 Springfields were the same but the 1861, 63, and the British P53 Enfields were 1-78". Again I don't know about the Springfield made rifled muskets but the British P53 (and some of their other models) had progressive depth grooves. They were considerabley deeper at the breech, and became shallower toward the muzzle.

Due to Britains proxcimity to the 'War a Week' European's, and also having extensive colonial possesions their military was well advanced and tended to be armed with pretty much cutting edge firearms, They had brought the developement of the muzzle loader to an exceedingly high level.

As to the best twist, it depends upon how authentic you want to be. I don't know about now, but at one time the P53 repros were sometimes available with a 48" twist, which was not authentic, but I beleive it to be the best of the available twists. I also think most of the imported Zouaves have a 1-66" twist, and IIRC that may be authentic.

The only legitimate 58 caliber reproduction with a 48" twist is the British P58 Naval Pattern 2 band. Parker-Hale made a copy, but now they're made in Italy. While I've had mine awile it's a 2nd Generation, meaning a P-H barrel and some other parts, but assembled and stocked in Italy. It has a 5 grooves, progressive depth grooves and a 48" twist. The P58's also had a heavier barrel because of the heavy naval cutlass bayonet.

The above was a simple test I did comparing lube, 50 yards benched. That one on the left has a leaker up high, you can just see the bottom of the hole, darn it!

Here's another with (naturally) another flyer

This was a comparison test between Swiss 2Fg BP and Pyrodex. In all these the powder was dispensed from an adjustable brass measure with visually inspected Minie' bullets.

..............Buckshot

Slogg76 · 11-07-2009, 06:51 AM

Thanks Buckshot. That was very informative. The two-bander is getting more interesting as I've read about others obtaining good accuracy with them as well. Would also be a lot handier in the woods as I plan to use it to take advantage of our extra muzzle loader season.

ResearchPress · 11-08-2009, 10:26 AM

Apart from the earliest models, the Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket (the 'three band Enfield') had 1 in 78 in. progressive depth rifling. This is not to be confused with gain twist. The rifling was 0.015 in. deep at the breech and evenly diminished to 0.005 at the muzzle. Parker-Hale did make some of of thier 'reproductions' of this arm with a 1:48 twist, but this is not an authentic copy of the Pattern arm. 1 in 48 twist was used on the later short rifles (the 'two band Enfield').

David

JeffinNZ · 11-08-2009, 02:30 PM

The twist and the Minie can make a big difference. I spotted for a shooter at a comp some years back. He was shooting a long Enfield and the Lee modern Minie, the real blunt one. Well he couldn't hit the 6x6 target at 300m and the bullet looked like a demented bumble bee heading down range. It flew on a HUGE spiral.

muleequestrian · 11-08-2009, 04:15 PM

I use a Parker Hale Musketoon im .58.... Says made in Birmingham England on the barrel,,,,not sure of the twist rate though, but I use the standard 60 grain musket charge of the black, and a standard minnie, and it shoots pretty accurately for deer hunting.

ResearchPress · 11-09-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffinNZ

...he couldn't hit the 6x6 target at 300m...

Something seriously wrong there. Here in the UK we have National Rifle Championship matches with the Enfield at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. One Club I ma in has an Enfield aggregate of 15 shots at each distance, 600 & 800 yards; now that is a challenge!

David

Buckshot · 11-10-2009, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ResearchPress

Something seriously wrong there. Here in the UK we have National Rifle Championship matches with the Enfield at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards. One Club I ma in has an Enfield aggregate of 15 shots at each distance, 600 & 800 yards; now that is a challenge!

David

Very possibly sounds to me like the shooter might have needed some remedial casting help with his Minie's

That is, assuming his rifle was fine.

................Buckshot

NickSS · 11-10-2009, 04:31 PM

The original Springfield Rifled muskets had a 1 in 72 twist and the Thee band Enfields have a 1 in 78 twist. Springfield tried several different rifle twists and chose the 1 in 72 twist not due to superior accuracy (the 1 in 48 twist was more accurate at ranges up to 500 yards) but due to drift caused by the rifling. The 1 in 72 had about 1/3 the drift as the 1 in 48. The Englixh two band Enfields were made for the British Navy and as ranges at sea were shorter than the army wanted, They rifled those with a 1 in 48 twist.

The confederates when looking for a rifle they had in good quantity for their sharpshooters to use tried all the weapons they had and chose the 2 band enfield as the most accurate. The Confederates formed special Sharpshooter battalions in each brigade and that is what they used except for the very best shots who got Whitworths.

By the way all original Springfield's and and Enfields are rifled with a uniform twist and the rifling goes from .015 at the breach to .005 at the Muzzle. This had a two fold purpose. First it allowed for more fouling before loading became too hard, and second it squeezed the minni ball down as it came out the muzzle which supposedly reduced fouling and improved accuracy.

11-03-2009, 08:46 AM	#1
Slogg76 Boolit Buddy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: central West Virginia Posts: 63	Best twist rate for rifled musket? I was planning to start saving so that I can replace my Zouave and Hawkins that were stolen a few years ago. I was leaning towards a 3-band Enfield replica. They all look about the same to me, but I noticed the twist rate was different among different manufactures. I was planning on shooting minies and I figured a 1:48 would probably be more accurate, but I don't think that is historically accurate. Anyways, I figured this was the best place to ask. My Zouave loved minies dropped from Lee molds, but I can not remember what the twist rate was in that particular musket.

11-06-2009, 11:09 PM	#6
Buckshot Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: So. California Posts: 8,261	...............I don't recal now if the 1855 Springfields were the same but the 1861, 63, and the British P53 Enfields were 1-78". Again I don't know about the Springfield made rifled muskets but the British P53 (and some of their other models) had progressive depth grooves. They were considerabley deeper at the breech, and became shallower toward the muzzle. Due to Britains proxcimity to the 'War a Week' European's, and also having extensive colonial possesions their military was well advanced and tended to be armed with pretty much cutting edge firearms, They had brought the developement of the muzzle loader to an exceedingly high level. As to the best twist, it depends upon how authentic you want to be. I don't know about now, but at one time the P53 repros were sometimes available with a 48" twist, which was not authentic, but I beleive it to be the best of the available twists. I also think most of the imported Zouaves have a 1-66" twist, and IIRC that may be authentic. The only legitimate 58 caliber reproduction with a 48" twist is the British P58 Naval Pattern 2 band. Parker-Hale made a copy, but now they're made in Italy. While I've had mine awile it's a 2nd Generation, meaning a P-H barrel and some other parts, but assembled and stocked in Italy. It has a 5 grooves, progressive depth grooves and a 48" twist. The P58's also had a heavier barrel because of the heavy naval cutlass bayonet. The above was a simple test I did comparing lube, 50 yards benched. That one on the left has a leaker up high, you can just see the bottom of the hole, darn it! Here's another with (naturally) another flyer This was a comparison test between Swiss 2Fg BP and Pyrodex. In all these the powder was dispensed from an adjustable brass measure with visually inspected Minie' bullets. ..............Buckshot __________________ Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner Last edited by Buckshot; 11-06-2009 at 11:34 PM.

11-08-2009, 10:26 AM	#8
ResearchPress Boolit Mold Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: UK Posts: 11	Apart from the earliest models, the Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket (the 'three band Enfield') had 1 in 78 in. progressive depth rifling. This is not to be confused with gain twist. The rifling was 0.015 in. deep at the breech and evenly diminished to 0.005 at the muzzle. Parker-Hale did make some of of thier 'reproductions' of this arm with a 1:48 twist, but this is not an authentic copy of the Pattern arm. 1 in 48 twist was used on the later short rifles (the 'two band Enfield'). David __________________ Long Range Muzzle Loader - www.lrml.org

11-08-2009, 02:30 PM	#9
JeffinNZ Boolit Master Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Christchurch New Zealand Posts: 1,988	The twist and the Minie can make a big difference. I spotted for a shooter at a comp some years back. He was shooting a long Enfield and the Lee modern Minie, the real blunt one. Well he couldn't hit the 6x6 target at 300m and the bullet looked like a demented bumble bee heading down range. It flew on a HUGE spiral. __________________ Cheers from New Zealand Jeff.

11-04-2009, 06:30 PM	#2
FL-Flinter Boolit Buddy Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central FL Posts: 59	I'm not up on the original mini shooters but IIRC, most had a twist around 1:60 The mini is nose-heavy and has the skirt drag, they don't need much twist.

11-04-2009, 06:53 PM	#3
10 ga Boolit Buddy Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Tidewater VA Posts: 64	For round balls and the old fashioned nose heavy minis the traditional twist was approx 1/72. I have a 58 Cabelas Hawken with 1/48 and it shoots round balls, minis and sabots good. I use 110 gr. FFF Swiss behind .565 roundballs and it shoots great. 2" groups at 50 yd and under 5" at 100. Of course it slams you pretty hard too. That is my hunting load. For plinking I shoot 60 gr. FF or even F and it is still accurate and mild recoil. That load just shoots 2" lower at 50 yd. Hope this helps. 10 ga

11-05-2009, 05:50 PM	#4
Slogg76 Boolit Buddy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: central West Virginia Posts: 63	thanks for the replies. Sounds like I can't lose either way.

11-06-2009, 05:36 AM	#5
northmn Boolit Master Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern MN Posts: 562	If my memory serves, the original Enfield has a "gain twist" that started at 1-72 or so at the breech and gain to a rate of 1-48 at the muzzle. Fouling was a big issue in military muskets for continued reloading. A 1-48 would likely be more accurate with todays use. Northmn

11-07-2009, 06:51 AM	#7
Slogg76 Boolit Buddy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: central West Virginia Posts: 63	Thanks Buckshot. That was very informative. The two-bander is getting more interesting as I've read about others obtaining good accuracy with them as well. Would also be a lot handier in the woods as I plan to use it to take advantage of our extra muzzle loader season.

11-08-2009, 04:15 PM	#10
muleequestrian Boolit Bub Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 35	I use a Parker Hale Musketoon im .58.... Says made in Birmingham England on the barrel,,,,not sure of the twist rate though, but I use the standard 60 grain musket charge of the black, and a standard minnie, and it shoots pretty accurately for deer hunting.

11-10-2009, 04:31 PM	#13
NickSS Boolit Master Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 931	The original Springfield Rifled muskets had a 1 in 72 twist and the Thee band Enfields have a 1 in 78 twist. Springfield tried several different rifle twists and chose the 1 in 72 twist not due to superior accuracy (the 1 in 48 twist was more accurate at ranges up to 500 yards) but due to drift caused by the rifling. The 1 in 72 had about 1/3 the drift as the 1 in 48. The Englixh two band Enfields were made for the British Navy and as ranges at sea were shorter than the army wanted, They rifled those with a 1 in 48 twist. The confederates when looking for a rifle they had in good quantity for their sharpshooters to use tried all the weapons they had and chose the 2 band enfield as the most accurate. The Confederates formed special Sharpshooter battalions in each brigade and that is what they used except for the very best shots who got Whitworths. By the way all original Springfield's and and Enfields are rifled with a uniform twist and the rifling goes from .015 at the breach to .005 at the Muzzle. This had a two fold purpose. First it allowed for more fouling before loading became too hard, and second it squeezed the minni ball down as it came out the muzzle which supposedly reduced fouling and improved accuracy.