Cast bullets in 223 with 1/7 twist

[RyanJames170]

I have seen a few posts on the cast bullet association about guys doing cast bullets in the AR with a 1/7 twist barrel, I was wondering if anyone here has done it, if you have what alloy, bullet mold did you use and how fast did you run them?

I was thinking on using a 225-72 RN, it looks a lot like a 22 cal 311299 bullet. I figure a 72gr bullet would be easier to get to work then a 55gr

I am curious to hear what people have done.

[Hick]

My 223 is 1:9, and works with Lyman #2 and a gas check-- but you have a trickier problem. One of my sons has an AR that is, I think, perhaps 1:7. He uses a similar bullet, gas checked and powder coated and that combination works for him. Don't know how fast he is running them.

[RogerDat]

I have an older mini-14 with a 1:7 twist and I use an NOE 72 grain cast with Lyman #2 and powder coated. Works very well.

https://noebulletmolds.com/site/prod.../225-72-rn-b1/

The ranch rifle with the "pencil" barrel is not known for being a tack driver but at 100 yards the longer heavier bullet took it from being able to pump most of 20 rounds into a medium pizza box to being able to do 20 rounds into a paper plate that bore a resemblance to a group with flyers (human error) rather than a pattern. Have shot the 70 grain bullet with 24.5 grains of Varget until you couldn't touch the barrel without lead fouling.

I did have a grandkid helping to heat that barrel.

[sigep1764]

20 to 22 grains of Win 748 and an MP 227-75 Nato mold. Powdercoated to traditionally lubed, factory gascheck or home punched. Can consistently tag a 4 inch gong at 150 yards with either an AR or the Savage Axis. Heavier boolits work better in the 1/7 twist barrels.

[RyanJames170]

20 to 22 grains of Win 748 and an MP 227-75 Nato mold. Powdercoated to traditionally lubed, factory gascheck or home punched. Can consistently tag a 4 inch gong at 150 yards with either an AR or the Savage Axis. Heavier boolits work better in the 1/7 twist barrels.

Have you been able to get the AR to function at all? If so what was the barrel length and gas system it had?

[Wolfdog91]

I've gone up to 2500fps with mine. It's honestly not that hard . Really need to revisit this though

[sigep1764]

Have you been able to get the AR to function at all? If so what was the barrel length and gas system it had?

748 will reliably operate the AR gas system with 16 grains in my pistol, carbine, and mid length systems. 20-22 grains is where the best accuracy is so far for me.

[sigep1764]

What Wolfdog said! It's not that hard. Just like any other caliber, prep the brass, open the neck enough that it doesn't swage the boolit, and use good lube/good powdercoat. Also choose a propellant that creates enough gas volume during its burn. Varget, W748, etc.

[dverna]

Decide what you mean by "get to work".

If 2-3" groups at 50 yards "gets it done" your journey is much easier. If your goal is 2-3" groups at 100 yards it will be tougher. 3 shot, 5 shot or 10 shot groups?

Casting .22 cal is a waste of time. If you are doing it for fun and the challenge...go for it. Be realistic and realize your gun will shoot like crap. But to me 2" groups at 50 yards are crap...YMMV.

You will never be able to match the accuracy and ballistic performance of a commercial jacketed bullet. Not too difficult to get 3000 fps MV loads yielding 2-3" groups at 200 yards with Hornady bullets.

Hornady 55 gr HP's are $120/k at: https://www.armorally.com/shop/horna...r-hp-bulk-oem/
Hornady 60 gr SP are $115/k at: https://www.armorally.com/shop/horna...r-sp-bulk-oem/

If you want cheaper bullets for banging steel and plinking:

55 gr FMJ for $75/k at: https://www.armorally.com/shop/arm-o...lure-bulk-oem/

62 gr FMJ for $82/k at: https://www.armorally.com/shop/arm-o...lure-bulk-oem/

Even the cheap bullets will shoot better than anything you can cast. Look at the numbers. $30-35/k for GC's and $20-25/k for good alloy and you are at $50-60/k for cast bullets. Thus why I think casting .22 cal is a waste of time. You will spend $150 for a good mold and sizer to save $25/k and spend 4 hours to make 1000 GC'ed bullets. But the big Debbie Downer...they will shoot like crap. You will spend money and time finding a load with the "right" powder, seating depth, bullet size, lube and alloy that shoots less crappy.

It is fun journey if that turns your crank. A waste of time if you are shooter.

[Larry Gibson]

Agree 100+% with dverna.......especially with a 7" twist. Those 2 - 3" groups at 50 yards will be close to 25 yard cylinder bore patterns at 200 yards.

[Wolfdog91]

I swear .22cal cast makes the strangest things happen.
.30cal ? Low velocity and 2" groups @100yd is GREAT ! but cast. 22 cal...... I... nevermind

[charlie b]

I swear .22cal cast makes the strangest things happen.
.30cal ? Low velocity and 2" groups @100yd is GREAT ! but cast. 22 cal...... I... nevermind

LOL Great answer.

[sureYnot]

Let's not all be naysayers here. I took a rabbit at 45yds recently with my ar15. 62gn cast, plain base, no lube groove, no gas check. It went right where I told it to (right behind the shoulder. Can't see good enough for a head shot that far without a scope). I played with the 55gn for a while, and the window between "cycles the action" and "can't hit anything" was very small. Heavier seems to be better.
Everyone basically told me to "give up, it can't be done," too.
If someone tells you a thing is difficult, it probably is. If they tell you it isn't worth the effort, that might be true. But if they tell you it's impossible, they probably give up too easily and don't want you to succeed and prove them wrong.
I had the same struggle casting for 9mm. Almost nobody wanted to help. Mostly just wanted to tell me it couldn't be done and I should give up. Same thing again with cast in my glock42.
No harm in taking a whack at it and seeing how far you can get.

Edit: I don't like that I just disagreed with Mr Gibson, but that's my experience.

[RogerDat]

At least Don included a qualifier as to what he meant to shoots like crap. I wouldn't expect my ranch rifle with ANY ammo to be good for 200 yards with open sights using my eyes. I do have some factory (Russian Army) ammo and maybe a couple hundred 55 and 62 grain jacketed. Maybe one of these days I'll try a blind accuracy test. I know 55 grain factory ammo was never all that accurate, I bought a good amount before I knew better and because it was cheap. I will say the heavier cast used to knock cans off of a 2x4 is more fun with 70 grain cast. Not having tried the alternative jacketed I certainly can't disagree with the assessment of such experienced shooters as to the accuracy gains for limited expense.

I will say that I like casting, I like saving money, I also like knowing that there is no such thing as an ammo shortage once I own a mold and have a supply of powder and primers to feed a caliber. None of which would matter much if one is shooting for a "score" or wants to shoot at longer ranges for accuracy.

Really not a lot different than loading for trap or skeet for non-competition occasional shooters, just reversed. A hundred cheap Walmart hulls are a good choice as the cost difference is too small over reloading for that persons use case. A competition shooter that savings adds up and they want the load that is consistently accurate for them.
For my use case where I only shoot a few hundred a year out of a rifle that most would say is not especially well known for accuracy to punch some holes in paper or hit a target for fun at moderate range cast works fine. Thought about a scope but then decided that would be like suping up a stock Ford Escort, better to buy a nice bolt action in .223 with a scope to see what I could do with that caliber at longer ranges. If I did I might well find I wanted a jacketed for maximum consistency and higher velocity. All without having to apply gas checks to teeny tiny bullets.

[MT Gianni]

If you want to try it, powder coat and go harder than woodpecker lips. You won't get there with ww. Try one of Rotometals alloy enrichment metals. You want to add some copper to your alloy or at least nickel. Reread everything you thought you knew about fit and brass prep. You won't equal jacketed but you can do better than most.

[dverna]

Roger brought up a good point. Even though I have never used cast bullets in the AR's, I have two molds and .225 sizer. I put them in my "preps" long ago in case things went south and I could not purchase affordable jacketed bullets. I have new molds/sizer for my other SHTF caliber (.308) and hope to never use them either.

I have carried an inventory of 6-10k jacketed .224 and 2-3k .308 bullets for the last dozen years. Now, at 73, it should be a lifetime supply. The molds are going to stay for now because it is better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them. If I make it to 80, I will sell all that crap unless someone in the family wants them.

That 1-7 twist is going to be a challenge. If you are committed to going down the cast for .223 path, my suggestion is to look at a slower twist barrel. One of the old 1-12 twist barrels may be an easier row to hoe. I would PM Larry Gibson. IIRC he has worked with slower twist barrels...but my rememberer is getting faulty.

Mt Gianni's post is worth repeating. It will take work to get "decent" (whatever that means to you) results.

[sureYnot]

Roger brought up a good point. Even though I have never used cast bullets in the AR's, I have two molds and .225 sizer. I put them in my "preps" long ago in case things went south and I could not purchase affordable jacketed bullets. I have new molds/sizer for my other SHTF caliber (.308) and hope to never use them either.

I have carried an inventory of 6-10k jacketed .224 and 2-3k .308 bullets for the last dozen years. Now, at 73, it should be a lifetime supply. The molds are going to stay for now because it is better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them. If I make it to 80, I will sell all that crap unless someone in the family wants them.

That 1-7 twist is going to be a challenge. If you are committed to going down the cast for .223 path, my suggestion is to look at a slower twist barrel. One of the old 1-12 twist barrels may be an easier row to hoe. I would PM Larry Gibson. IIRC he has worked with slower twist barrels...but my rememberer is getting faulty.

Mt Gianni's post is worth repeating. It will take work to get "decent" (whatever that means to you) results.

Yes, sir. It's even more work if you're as dumb as me and START your reloading and casting with that setup. The first thing I did was "everything wrong" with powder coating and learned all about how pretty lead makes things look on the inside of things and how fun it is to remove.
It's one of those things you only do once.
.223 and 5.56 are very high pressure. My rifle likes a quite oversized bullet. (Yes, I slugged it) Sanding my sizer out to .2265 made it happy.

[Wolfdog91]

If you want to try it, powder coat and go harder than woodpecker lips. You won't get there with ww. Try one of Rotometals alloy enrichment metals. You want to add some copper to your alloy or at least nickel. Reread everything you thought you knew about fit and brass prep. You won't equal jacketed but you can do better than most.

I just used clip on wheel weights , and water dropped them out the mold then out the oven . Got her up to 20bhn if I remember right, easy peasy

[MT Gianni]

I just used clip on wheel weights , and water dropped them out the mold then out the oven . Got her up to 20bhn if I remember right, easy peasy

It looked like you had decent groups @ 1875 fps. To add another 1000 fps you are going to need over 25 bhn.

[Wolfdog91]

It looked like you had decent groups @ 1875 fps. To add another 1000 fps you are going to need over 25 bhn.

Wait where did her say we needed to go to 3k ?