Marlin 1895 Accuracy: Last Desperate Attempts

[RG1911]

I've run out of ideas, other than cast bullet alloy and maybe powder, to get this older Marlin to shoot better than shotgun patterns at 50 yards.

Background: I bought this 1895 in 45-70 used 10-15 years ago and play with it sporadically. Accuracy has never been satisfactory. Slugging the micro-groove bore revealed that is was quite oversize at .4595", so I bought a new NOE mold for a 325-gr boolit, and a .462" sizing die.

I mounted a 14X scope. Using RL-7 powder (47gr, 49gr, and 51gr from the Lyman book), weighed boolits, and my alloy that approximates Lyman #2, all loads looked like patterns, with 5 shots going into about 6" at 50 yards. (I should have chronographed the loads.)

I can think only of changing the alloy and/or the powder. For a different alloy, I have pure lead and virgin linotype. For powders, I have, over the years, accumulated 47 different powders from which to choose.

Neither a new barrel nor one of the new Ruger Marlins is in the budget.

Suggestions and recommendations will be welcomed.

Thank you, Richard

[HWooldridge]

Try the straight linotype with 50 grs of RL-7.

[longbow]

I have to say that I am surprised it won't group better than that! I had a Marlin 1895 in the 70's and shot cast boolits well from microgroove barrel. I have an 1894 Marlin in .44 mag now and it is also microgroove but shoots cast boolits well.

I never had any issues with the 1895 but something that occurs to me about the 1894 is that not only does it have a fat bore as most .44 mag. rifles do but when I was trying to get better accuracy I did some research and found comments on the Marlin Owners forum that Marlins often have tight spots in the bores under site dovetails and under roll stamping. So I slugged my barrel using a soft lead bullet drilled through and mounted on the end of a 5/16" rod then oiled it and ran it through the bore. Sure enough I found several tight spots! I made up some lapping slugs then used the same rod with a muzzle protecter to lap the tight spots. I was a bit concerned about lapping a microgroove barrel but it all went quite well and after lapping the tight spots I ran the lap full length a few times then called it a day. Accuracy improved dramatically and leading disappeared.

So there is something you might check. If you can run a bullet into the bore then tap it out with a rod, drill and put onto a rod so you can run it through the end to end and back and forth you will be able to find any tight spots if they are there. If there are they can be lapped out pretty easily. If not you have eliminated another variable.

Longbow

[oconeedan]

Your mould that casts .462 may be too big, and be deforming enough that your accuracy suffers.
Have you tried "normal" .458 moulds , and shoot the bullets as dropped?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Your loads look fairly stout, bringing up scope performance and recoil fatigue. My 1895 Marlin 45-70 has broken a few scopes and they were 'the good ones'. I also installed a recoil pad and use a Past Shoulder pad when shooting it. Still, after 10 or 15 'full charge' rounds, I start to notice the recoil out of my 8.3 pound rifle with scope. Try some jacketed bullets, 300-350 grain with 'book' loads and check accuracy. With hard kicking rifles, I suspect problems with the scope and scope mounting first, then recoil fatigue. I have an early 1895, had that curved buttplate, and an 1895 Cowboy Remlin, but a good one. Either one will stay under 1.5 MOA at 100 and 200 yards. Sometimes a serious cleaning, clearing all hardened powder fouling, copper and lead can get things on the right track. I too have found bore constrictions under dovetails on some Marlin's but have not noticed any gross inaccuracies in those barrels. You did not state whether your bullet uses gas-checks, without gas checks your bullets will not handle the speed/pressure.

[RickinTN]

Your mould that casts .462 may be too big, and be deforming enough that your accuracy suffers.
Have you tried "normal" .458 moulds , and shoot the bullets as dropped?

If a bullet will chamber it's not too big. I would try a softer alloy with about 12 grains of Unique. That load works well in my 4 45-70's which includes 2 Marlins.
Good luck,
Rick

[RG1911]

If a bullet will chamber it's not too big. I would try a softer alloy with about 12 grains of Unique. That load works well in my 4 45-70's which includes 2 Marlins.
Good luck,
Rick

Rick,

Thank you. I'll have to buy a few pounds of a softer alloy. Do you have a suggestion? (eg: 1:20, 1:40)

Richard

[RG1911]

The bullets are non-gas check. Without the chronograph, I can't tell if the loads from the Lyman manual are a bit heavy. According to the manual, they should have been medium-level loads. BTW, I also had a recoil pad installed and still use a Past shoulder pad. It's not what I'd call a "plinking" rifle.

That scope is on only for development purposes; if I get it to shoot tolerably well, I'll just use the ghost ring sights I put on earlier, or, considering my aging eye sight, possibly a red/green dot.

I have tried it with factory and mild-to-medium-stout handloads using jacketed bullets. Accuracy is slightly better, but nothing to write home about.

Oh, and the bore is always very thoroughly cleaned. I don't *think* that's the problem.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

Your mould that casts .462 may be too big, and be deforming enough that your accuracy suffers.
Have you tried "normal" .458 moulds , and shoot the bullets as dropped?

Yup. I tried standard retail .458" and some .460" I was able to buy from a gentleman here. Horrible results.

[HWooldridge]

Can you fire one or two rounds into water? Would need to be pretty deep but a full 55 gallon drum might stop a big slug if fired straight down. That might give some insight into whether they are skidding on the rifling.

My 1895 is an older one with the deep Ballard rifling. It shoots both cast and J-word pills quite well.

[RG1911]

Using the drilled-and-tapped bullet sounds like a very clever idea. Is the 5/16 rod the type that's threaded full-length that you can buy at the hardware store?

I'll find some pure lead (it's still in storage from the last move) and try that method. Before I slugged the bore quite a few years ago, I had read in the Marlin Owners forum about possible tight spots, particularly under the front sight, so I was paying attention for them. Nothing made itself obvious.

Unlike my match rifles, I'll be perfectly happy with 2MOA.

Cheers, Richard

[RG1911]

Good idea. I'll see if I can make it happen.

Cheers, Richard

[Sgt H]

The loads you posted are likely in the 2000fps area or more, too much for a plain base boolit. I will second the advice from RickenTN. 12 grains or so of Unique under your boolit should group better and if the rounds chamber your diameter is not to large. .002-.003" over groove is often used with cast boolits. I use 12-12.5 grains of Unique under 300-350 grain boolits and have found it very accurate in several different rifles. Velocity is in the 1100-1150 fps range. Very pleasant to shoot with little recoil. I don't consider this a hunting load but fun for plinking/gong shoots out to several hundred yards. For deer hunting I use a Lyman/Gould HP that casts about 340 grains in 20/1 loaded over 30 grains of 5744 for about 1450 fps.

[Bass Ackward]

If ya can’t win FAIR in life, …. CHEAT! Since it’s all in the launch, the bigger the bore, the more wind you catch. And each caliber and gun in that diameter is different. To keep your sanity and save on time / components, the first thing to ALWAYS check is your mix. Why? Cause we all hear of the guy who gets 3000 fps outta pure, but …. he (the gun) is definitely the exception and the mix will fail LONG before leading occurs. And the best way to do that is to randomly pick a load and start at 25 yards. I don’t care if you shoot 5” groups. Then move out to 50. Is it linear? (10”). If yes move out to 100. Should be @ 20”. You can play this game as far out as you want to shoot, with any gun, handgun or rifle, in any caliber. If it’s linear, it’s either gun, load or bullet. If you have lost linearity anywhere along the line, then you can add more tin or harden the mix. Once you are as hard as you can or want to go, changes have to be made in altering the load down or bullet design, OR the gun. Remember, each diameter has an …. “easiest velocity” level to obtain accuracy. The highest is 22 down to 45 cal at @ 1100 fps. (the sound barrier). PB lower than jacketed because the check is harder and holds the nose into the wind at the launch. Everything you do. Every step you take. It’s ALL about the launch to avoid yaw.

[35 Whelen]

It's a fairly well known fact that MicroGroove rifling consists of many very small lands which a cast bullet, that is too soft or is driven too fast, cannot "grab". The general guidance for cast bullets with MicroGroove rifling is hard bullets at about 1600 fps or less.
I tried cast in my old 1895 Marlin and finally gave up.

35W

[Nobade]

If I want to shoot plain base bullets that fast out of a 45-70, I have to paper patch them to get any kind of decent accuracy. Do you really need that kind of power? If so, paper patch and nearly pure lead is the easy answer. If not, then back way off to maybe 1200-1400 fps and see if it doesn't work better.

As for tight spots, my own 1895CB had plenty of that. I firelapped it a bit and I could use the bore scope to see the dovetails and roll marks inside the bore where it wore the blue off. Pretty funny, and it did shoot a lot better afterward.

[RickinTN]

If you're going to use a binary alloy the 20:1 is what I would use. A gas check bullet would really help also. I have a mold from Tom at Accuratemolds.com which weighs approximately 365 grains. It is a gas check design and has what I call his "marlin nose". It works quite well in function and accuracy.
Good Luck,
Rick

[pietro]

.

I would also suggest a sanity check of the rifling @ the muzzle for wear/damage.

[beemer]

I loose interest with a 420 grain bullet at anything over 1300 fps or so. The 1895 is not a heavy rifle. My favorite bullet is the Lee 340 powder coated and sized .460. Try backing off the load especially with the plain base bullet. Try the above mentioned 12-12.5 Unique, can't hurt anything.

It occurred to me that you might slug just ahead of the chamber and and again at the muzzle. When you drive a slug through it only shows the smallest diameter.

[Bird]

RG1911,
You need a gas checked boolit with that much rl7 powder. You are pushing towards 2,000 fps with your top loads. Clean the leading from your barrel, and use a load that gives you 1200 to 1300 fps for plain based boolits.