Any Reason for +P Ammo

[44MAG#1]

In your case, nothing is believable.
Luckily sane people with some experience can make pretty good judgement calls when presented with reasonable evidence and logical reasoning.
There’s no “coin flipping” that will ever answer even the easiest of questions. PRETENDING that there are no answers is more a reaction to ignoring accurate answers you would rather not admit are accurate.

Since we can’t all be “experts” in every discipline, those that are intelligent defer to the real experts in particular fields to give us the reasoned, logical answers to the questions that we are curious about.

I am sorry you took what I said like you did. I am just going by what i have witnessed by living my life for close to 70 years. I have been a learner in those years. Some of it good some not so good. The not so good has influenced me equally as much as the good.
In being around and working with and for people for many, many, many ,many years with various backgrounds from people who could just barely read and write to those with high degrees of education, with some who some were slicker than a sheet of ice, has really colored my views.
I am sorry for that. If you have had better experiences I am glad.
Remember I still believe Elmer Keith hit that Mule Deer two shot out of four shots at 600 yards with a 6.5 inch S&W 44 Magnum.
So you see how my mind works.
Sorry, again.

[dverna]

I did not know Keith hit a deer twice at 600 yards using a .44 Mag pistol. If that is a true story, my respect for the man has been severely diminished. Only a jerk would take a shot like that, unless the deer had been wounded and needed a “Hail Mary” shot to stop its suffering.

[44MAG#1]

I did not know Keith hit a deer twice at 600 yards using a .44 Mag pistol. If that is a true story, my respect for the man has been severely diminished. Only a jerk would take a shot like that, unless the deer had been wounded and needed a “Hail Mary” shot to stop its suffering.

It was hit by a rifle shooter. If you had read anything by Keith one would know that.
That story has been circulated muchly

[cainttype]

It's like going by statistics. How were they gathered and by whom?

Valid point, and one that often causes confusion in many of these ballistic wound trauma, and ammo component combo potentials to cause quantifiable tissue destruction/damage/results.
The mistake is usually made by people (often with good intentions, but misled) trying to equate junk research and “statistics” offered by inept magazine writers/book authors claiming they have answers to questions that were long ago solved by real professionals, and competent statistical analysis.
It is easy to see how the firearms media is complicit in spreading the disinformation because they assisted the incompetents by featuring much of their “data” as something that could be trusted… “Real World” BS.

Oddly enough, those same publications, when given the opportunity to admit their mistake simply chose to more or less ignore their own incompetence and wished it to simply all fade away…. Hoping their readers would never realize how easily the editors themselves were duped….
It worked somewhat, because many that trusted them never heard the retraction. That’s why some have very good reason to be as skeptical of gun rags as they should be of “Mainstream Media… News”.

The previously mentioned Dr Fackler, along with Mr Macpherson, are the exact opposite of the incompetents in question.
Both men put decades into serious science, with stellar achievements and contributions in their fields.
Anyone comparing the validity between these separate groups of “authorities” can consider themselves officially “confused”.

[44MAG#1]

I may be officially Confused. I know what I know because i learned it the hard way and that learning has caused me to know what I know when it comes to knowing to be very cautious of what the people in the "know" tries to get the unknowing to know.
Here is the ammo I carry in my Glock 45 Auto which is what I carry the most when carrying semi autos even though I like the 1911 launch pad absolutely the best of any semi auto handgun. Even though I like a revolver the best of all handguns I carry a semi auto the most.

[dverna]

It was hit by a rifle shooter. If you had read anything by Keith one would know that.
That story has been circulated muchly

Thanks for the clarification. And you are correct....I have read very little by guys like Keith and Taffin etc. I have never had any desire for more than a .357 Mag. in a pistol. Getting beaten up by recoil never appealed. As a result, articles on more powerful pistol calibers were of little interest. .

BTW, this has been an interesting thread.

[44MAG#1]

The thread still doesn't really answer my OP on whether the small gains one gets on 38 Special +P and 9MM +P is really worthwhile especially in short barrel handguns. Is it even worth it in the 45
Auto? Not talking about the 45 Super or a 460 Roland. Just the 45 Auto.

[35remington]

I attempted to do so for part of your question. See first page.

[Kosh75287]

A question was asked, rhetorically I think, involving the .38 Special. It was stipulated that a standard pressure .38 Spl. threw a (158 gr., I believe) projectile at 800 f/s, and a .38 Spl. +P threw the same projectile at 875 f/s. It was then asked what was really gained.
Well, 19.6% more kinetic energy, for one thing. Probably a bit more penetration, to go along with it. I am NOT a "foot pounds fanatic", but I DO recognize that K.E. does play some part in the incapacitation equation. Penetration is a (more important, IMHO) factor, also, so I'll accept what gains can be had there, too.
With a 158 gr. projectile (LSWC, preferably), I consider neither of the velocities cited as enough for personal defense. But if my choices are between "not enough" and "not enough but slightly more", I'LL take the latter, while looking for a better sidearm.

[pettypace]

A question was asked, rhetorically I think, involving the .38 Special. It was stipulated that a standard pressure .38 Spl. threw a (158 gr., I believe) projectile at 800 f/s, and a .38 Spl. +P threw the same projectile at 875 f/s. It was then asked what was really gained.
Well, 19.6% more kinetic energy, for one thing. Probably a bit more penetration, to go along with it. I am NOT a "foot pounds fanatic", but I DO recognize that K.E. does play some part in the incapacitation equation. Penetration is a (more important, IMHO) factor, also, so I'll accept what gains can be had there, too.
With a 158 gr. projectile (LSWC, preferably), I consider neither of the velocities cited as enough for personal defense. But if my choices are between "not enough" and "not enough but slightly more", I'LL take the latter, while looking for a better sidearm.

It's good that you're not a "foot pounds fanatic." But don't fall for the kinetic energy thing -- not even a little bit.

Here's Fackler's "It ain't about energy" lesson:

Slide 1: Fackler's high-velocity 6mm round ball wound profile:



Slide 2: Fackler's low-velocity 12 gauge round ball wound profile:



Fackler's captions are well worth trying to read. But in case your eyesight is as bad as mine, here's the gist of it: The two projectiles have the same kinetic energy. But the slow, heavy, big diameter projectile does 15 times the tissue damage as the fast, light, small diameter projectile.

Lesson to be learned: It's all about permanent cavity wound mass, not kinetic energy.

[HWooldridge]

It's good that you're not a "foot pounds fanatic." But don't fall for the kinetic energy thing -- not even a little bit.

Here's Fackler's "It ain't about energy" lesson:

Slide 1: Fackler's high-velocity 6mm round ball wound profile:



Slide 2: Fackler's low-velocity 12 gauge round ball wound profile:



Fackler's captions are well worth trying to read. But in case your eyesight is as bad as mine, here's the gist of it: The two projectiles have the same kinetic energy. But the slow, heavy, big diameter projectile does 15 times the tissue damage as the fast, light, small diameter projectile.

Lesson to be learned: It's all about permanent cavity wound mass, not kinetic energy.

That was proven out during the Civil War with Minie balls (bullets), which caused horrible wounds at relatively low velocities. Amputations were frequent - not only due to rapid infection, but because most any limb struck by a .58 piece of pure lead generally shattered the bone. Doctors figured it was easier to cut off a leg or arm rather than try to save it.

[Outpost75]

I wonder what caliber handgun Mr Fackler carried and the ammo used.

Fair question. In Marty's early years as a "meatball surgeon" at a firebase in Vietnam, doing his best to stabilize combat wounded to survive their air evac to a higher level of care he was issued an M1911A1 pistol with ball ammo.

In combat areas he said they carried all the time due to risk of infiltrators intending to kill US and ARVN medical personnel. I do not know whether he actually ever had to use his .45 in anger, but he had full confidence in it.

He related to me an incident where he used the pistol as an impact weapon "to sedate an emotionally disturbed casualty" where it was quite effective such that the subject recovered to be exfilled to a higher command authority for court martial. "The MPs would have simply killed the bastard, but he deserved due process.'

[M-Tecs]

I have the utmost respect for the work of men like Dr. Fackler and Mr. Macpherson. That being said their data is only one tool in a very large toolbox. On a very simplistic level history has proven that the larger and faster a projectile is the more effective it will be related to stopping power. The flipside of that what is a realistic minimum? That can only be answered by the individual's requirements. For some it's a one size fits all for others it's much more like selecting the proper PPE. It's based on threat levels. The military, LE and civilians all benefit from this type of data, however, their requirements may not be the same.

For SD with a handgun, I have used and will continue to use calibers as small as the 22LR and as large as a 500 S&W depending on my need. When I take the dogs for a walk, I carry a 22LR in case of rabid fox or coyote. In my own home my threat level is very low, so I don't carry in the house normally. A couple of years ago an escaped murderer was loose in the area. The LE had helicopters overhead and they were searching my property. I strapped on my 45 ACP double stack until he was captured about a block away. For bears I have carried 44 Mag, 500 S&W and 460 Rowland. For daily carry it's mostly a Sig 365XL but that at times that is still too large so it's a Ruger LCP 380 in the front pocket.

For me it's no different than selecting proper PPE. Unlike selecting PPE when it comes to SD we have very limited control of what threat we will face so we are just guessing at what an acceptable matchup could be.

Back to the subject of the merits of +P ammo I want the most energy transfer possible in a load I can control in a size of firearm that best matches my realistic threat level.

[cainttype]

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I have a 38 snubby load for SD that easily and reliably achieves the type penetration I want but is iffy on expansion as one option, and the second option is a similar +P version that tends to reliably expand with the added 75-100 fps and still gets more than my required penetration… I want the +P version every time.
On the other hand, if I have a compact 45 auto with a load that reliably expands and penetrates to my requirements at a modest velocity I might avoid a +P version since any extra muzzle-blast, recoil, and over-penetration is something I don’t want.

[pettypace]

Continuing with the toolbox metaphor... What's the difference between the "energy transfer" tool and MacPherson's "wound mass" tool? Or do they really amount to the same thing?

[HumptyDumpty]

The thread still doesn't really answer my OP on whether the small gains one gets on 38 Special +P and 9MM +P is really worthwhile especially in short barrel handguns. Is it even worth it in the 45
Auto? Not talking about the 45 Super or a 460 Roland. Just the 45 Auto.

You were not that specific in your first post; it would have been helpful had you been. Within the SAAMI pressure limits of 45 auto +p, I would say no, the performance gain is not significant. If you load it hotter (which is all the Super and Rowland rounds do, fundamentally), the difference becomes dramatic. I'd imagine it is similar with 9mm and and 38 special. So, it partly depends on whether we confine our definition of "+P" to a published specification from SAAMI or CIP (if the Europeans even do that), or not.

[44MAG#1]

Does the "SUPER" and "ROWLAND" have a +P after their name on the casehead? I don't know. I know the +P ammo for the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto does. Are there any others?

[cainttype]

Does the "SUPER" and "ROWLAND" have a +P after their name on the casehead? I don't know. I know the +P ammo for the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto does. Are there any others?

40 S&W +P, by Buffalo Bore… They even offer 32 and 380 +P…
Underwood is another that supplies unusual options.

[HumptyDumpty]

Does the "SUPER" and "ROWLAND" have a +P after their name on the casehead? I don't know. I know the +P ammo for the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto does. Are there any others?

No, they don't. However, it is not terribly uncommon to use standard 45 Auto brass with Super or Rowland data (before somebody interject, a true Rowland chamber is slightly longer, but COAL and case capacity is the same as 45 Auto, so it truly is just a matter of increased pressure). From my carbine, this is all I do. From a pistol, a fully supported chamber is required. Other modifications are model-specific. 45 Super and Rowland brass have a strengthened case head area; to my knowledge, 38 special and 9mm brass are the same, whether they are designated as +P or not. I also know that 38 Super is often labeled +P, simply to help avoid confusion with 38 Automatic; I am not sure if it even has a an official +P specification. I've certainly encountered some that was hotter than others.

[44MAG#1]

40 S&W +P, by Buffalo Bore… They even offer 32 and 380 +P…
Underwood is another that supplies unusual options.

Thank you.