Dry fire vs. Light caliber vs. Full power for practice

[Thumbcocker]

To gain proficiency with a hard kicking handgun should one
1.) dry fire that gun

2.) shoot a lighter caliber handgun (think. 32 mag)

3.) shoot nothing but full snort loads but fewer of them to avoid flinch

4.) Or shootlight loads in the hard kicking gun.

[osage]

Many years ago in initial firearms training we would dry fire service revolver with a penny balanced on barrel double action. Definitely highlighted issues. On the range an RSO would load the cylinder mixing a snap cap in. This continued when HK USP and AR's magazines replaces 38's and 12 gauge. I think lighter target loads are more appropriate before moving up to heavier loads. Gives one a chance to work on technical issues without recoil in the mix.

[country gent]

When I was competing in NRA high power (service rifle) my practice rejime was as follows.
Monday Wednesday and Friday 25 rds dry fire with gear ( coat glove knobblocks)
Tuesday and Thrsday 20 rds with a 22 target rifle using 22 shorts, again with gear. The long barrel and low velocity shorts really helped with follow thru.
Sunday was a full match practice or match.

I also practiced at work You can get a decent practice in your mind by thinking thru the process of making a good shot sight picture hold trigger squeeze and follow thru if your honest with your self. While this dosnt help with the muscle memory control it does improve the eye mind hand coordination. making the process thought free and smooth.

Learn to call your shots so you know when you make a less than perfect shot and where it should be because of it.

[Mk42gunner]

1,2,and 4. Work up to the full snort loads.

The previous posters gave good advice in my opinion.

Robert

[rintinglen]

Dry firing WITH SNAP CAPS will build skill and not break your firing pin. The beauty is that it is not expensive and can be done in a lot of places where you can't shoot. I have an old Level III vest that I hung a target on and snap away in my basement. If you don't use snap caps, eventually, the tip of your firing pin will break. I have had it happen on a Colt Python. a Police Positive, a Model 66, a Star Modelo Super and a 1911 Commander.

I will say that most of the best pistol shooters that I met admitted starting with a 22.

[dverna]

I do not know many people who shoot heavy recoiling handguns, but of those I know, none are very good marksmen.

But to your question. If you cannot dry fire without the sights staying on target, you cannot shoot a pistol accurately. If you cannot shoot a .22, 9mm or .38 Spl accurately, it is unlikely you will do better with a handgun that hurts you.

It is that simple in my little pea brain.

[Thumbcocker]

I do not know many people who shoot heavy recoiling handguns, but of those I know, none are very good marksmen.

But to your question. If you cannot dry fire without the sights staying on target, you cannot shoot a pistol accurately. If you cannot shoot a .22, 9mm or .38 Spl accurately, it is unlikely you will do better with a handgun that hurts you.

It is that simple in my little pea brain.

Totally sincere question here. What constitutes good marksman with a handgun?

[AnthonyB]

Totally sincere question here. What constitutes good marksman with a handgun?

IMO, it is being able to hit what you need to hit at the distance you require. All else is superfluous.
Tony

[dverna]

Totally sincere question here. What constitutes good marksman with a handgun?

That is a good question. In my opinion, using a two handed hold and no other support, a slow fire 10 shot group of 6" at 50 yards is good marksmanship.

In Bullseye, which is shot one handed, the 50 yard target has a 9 ring of about 5.5" and a ten ring of just under 3.5". Expert class is an average of 90-94.99 (including Timed and Rapid Fire on the same target at 25 yards). Master class averages 95-96.99 and High Master over 97.

I am sure that others who have shot other disciplines will share their experience.

I see a lot of people missing pie plates at 10 yards at public ranges, so the "low end" is pretty low.

[megasupermagnum]

I can only speak for myself, and it does not come naturally to me. The only way I can build up to higher recoil tolerance, handgun, or long gun, is to slowly work up to those higher recoil loads. I then have to maintain that. If I push too far, I develop a flinch, and I have yet to find any way to fix it than to go back to square #1 with dry fire. Luckily I am getting better at feeling when I am pushing too far. I can tell I'm tensing up.

Dry fire is never a bad thing, but I think shooting lighter recoiling handguns does the most good for me. Recoil is only part of the equation. Becoming used to the noise and blast is another part that dryfire can not help with. I think 32 H&R or 327 federal is a great choice as recoil is minimal in bigger handguns, yet they still sound like a 44 magnum. Even still, I need to work up to the recoil. Before hunting season I shoot a lot more moderate 41 magnum rounds, and work up to full power 44 magnums. Once comfortable, it is easy. Walk away for a few months, and I couldn't do it.

[MGD]

I personally know several gentlemen that shoot with exceptional accuracy. All are dedicated handgun hunters using 454 Casull, 44 mag, 375 JDJ. I have seen many 3" groups shot at 100yds with revolvers from a rest. If you include the T/C single shots, 1" at 100 yds is possible. None of them only shoot "heavy" loads, or only hunting handguns. None of these gentlemen are casual shooters. These are dedicated handgunners shooting thousands of rounds a year. Most are shooting guns that are best described as high-end custom.

The question posed uses the terms heavy and light to describe levels of ammunition. These are relative terms. To a Bullseye, USPSA, NRA Action Pistol, or IDPA shooter; 45 ACP 230gr @ 830 fps is a heavy load. To a handgun hunter the 454 Casull with a 260gr bullet @ 2000fps is a heavy load.

What seems to matter is if a load is less recoiling than what is "normally" used. The mind is a big factor. From the beginning of my pistol shooting, I was always instructed to shoot the heaviest recoiling guns first. Then as the shooting session progressed work down in terms of recoil. The recoils "seems" to be greater when going from lower to higher recoiling guns.

The majority of the ammo that I load and shoot is below max. velocities. I limit myself to 12 rds of full power 454 a day. This is to prevent injury as well as to prevent development of flinch.

The goal of successful handgun training is accuracy. You can't miss fast enough or big enough to make a difference. When you need to use more powerful than target loads, you will have to work harder to achieve accuracy. Also, the skill perishes faster when using heavier recoiling loads.

No sport that I am aware of advocates training at 100% all the time. Dry firing, using lighter than normal loads, or different guns all help develop shooting skills.

[John Taylor]

Many years back I practiced with wax bulletin a SA 357. To get a little more velocity I machined out a bunch of brass to take shotgun primers. You don't use any powder but you need to be careful, a wax bullet out of a 38 will go through sheet rock.

[Paul105]

As mentioned above, I can only speak for myself. I have no formal training, and never participated in bullseye, hipower, or any of the “combat” shooting disciplines. Just a casual, recreational shooter. With that said, I’ve put close to 150,000 rnds down range in the last 20 yrs or so. Probably half (too lazy to go add it all up) of those have been 22 cal handgun. Did very little dry fire.

About 15 yrs ago and over a 3 yr period of time I shot 15,000 rnds of 475LB in a FA M83, 9,000 rnds of .44 in a S&W M329, and 25,000 rnds in a 45 Colt FAM97 (25,000).

I had to shoot the “heavy hitters” continuously (with slightly reduced loads) in order to maintain any degree of proficiency.

Here’s some targets shot during that period. The five shot 50 yd target is self explanatory. The second resulted from placing the target at 50yds every time I went to the range and firing one round cold turkey. Can’t do this today.
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Over a month or so – one shot each range trip with the above gun and load.
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45 Colt
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M329 – 25 yds offhand – 25 oz 44 mag w/v notch rear and fiber optic front
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The guns:
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Now in my mid 70s, I shoot a 2.75” M69 .44 mag 2 or 3 times a week with 17.5gr A2400 under 240/265gr. I don’t shoot the 475 LB or 500 JR much any more but when I do, it’s with reduced loads and even then it takes some effort to get comfortable, even though I shoot the 44 mag often.

My point to all of this is that dry fire, or moderate center fire shooting never did allow me to transition to the bigger guns.

Again, just my experience.

FWIW,

Paul

[Bigslug]

Back when I was into that sort of thing, it was mostly a matter of acclimating to the harder kicking stuff. .22 and 9mm is fine for learning sight picture and follow through, but nothing teaches you to deal with blast and recoil except blast and recoil.

That said, if the gun is physically damaging you, it's pretty hard to get acclimated to actual injury.

But below that threshold, it's really a matter of convincing your lizard brain of what your rational logic already knows - that the blast and recoil won't actually harm you. I think it took me about a month of 50 rounds a week to get to where shooting .44 was a non-event.

Since getting seriously into the cast bullets and having seen what they can do, my attitude has shifted more towards seriously questioning why a bullet needs to be thrown that hard. If long range pistol silhouette is your game, then yeah, you probably have a need. If you're merely trying to drain the cardiovascular system of a large animal inside of 100 yards, you can easily do that well below the level of punch-card membership in the joint-replacement club.

[T-Bird]

Back when I was into that sort of thing, it was mostly a matter of acclimating to the harder kicking stuff. .22 and 9mm is fine for learning sight picture and follow through, but nothing teaches you to deal with blast and recoil except blast and recoil.

That said, if the gun is physically damaging you, it's pretty hard to get acclimated to actual injury.

But below that threshold, it's really a matter of convincing your lizard brain of what your rational logic already knows - that the blast and recoil won't actually harm you. I think it took me about a month of 50 rounds a week to get to where shooting .44 was a non-event.

Since getting seriously into the cast bullets and having seen what they can do, my attitude has shifted more towards seriously questioning why a bullet needs to be thrown that hard. If long range pistol silhouette is your game, then yeah, you probably have a need. If you're merely trying to drain the cardiovascular system of a large animal inside of 100 yards, you can easily do that well below the level of punch-card membership in the joint-replacement club.

I agree, this is what I have been telling a couple friends over the years (and after seeing my results in the woods, they are beginning to believe it) concerning the effectiveness of non full snort loads in big bore handguns with cast boolits for hunting.

[Three44s]

By dverna: “I do not know many people who shoot heavy recoiling handguns, but of those I know, none are very good marksmen.”

None? Well, you run in the wrong circles then.

Three44s

[Three44s]

To the OP’s question, I am for options 1,2 &4

Three44s

[Three44s]

Twenty nine years ago, I learned that a Grizzly was hanging around our summer mountain cattle range. I had been “brainwashed” through articles in gun rags of the day that the .44 Mag would cripple you by just looking at one.

I had to figure out what I needed to do to have some sort of protection if surprised by this bear, be it on horseback or on foot.

I looked at all the options and settled on a .44 double action revolver as the best choice. You can talk long guns till you are blue in the face ....... but the day you need it and it’s not there because it’s such a nuisance to keep with you ..... well you get the picture!

Or you are riding a horse that decides it can fair better by dumping you to play with bear and runs off with your long gun in its scabbard .... well that ain’t pretty either!

My first big revolver was and is the Ruger Redhawk (in 44). Factory loads with the factory (wood) grips were pure misery! A set of Uncle Mikes rubber ones were an improvement.

But the biggest plus was handloading down loaded cast (factory cast at first). I shot a K22 S&W a lot, dry fired a lot AND shot a lot of .44 Special plus and plus plus loads in that Redhawk. I generally finished up a session with full house but a short run at that.

A year later, the Smith Mountain Gun became noticed by me and I acquired it as well.

At just 39 oz empty, it is a bit more “spirited” than the Redhawk is but it is also much more carry friendly!

About this time I had downsized to shooting golf balls. I transitioned from the longer sight radius of the 7.5” barreled Ruger to the 4” Smith easily.

I also fired more rounds in DA mode more than SA. Trust me it works if you stick with it!

Two more years passed by and I spotted a Super Red hawk in 44 with a 9.5” barrel. I really bought that one for a barrel chop project but I grew so fond of that long barrel coupled with a peep sight and Rugers gold bead front sight painted black. Later I traded that one off for a 7.5” Super Red hawk in the .480 Ruger. (That .480 is a hoot!)

Take it from me, if you beat yourself up shooting ALL heavy loads you are taking the long way around to get accurate with a heavy caliber DA handgun. Even if you can handle it in the beginning, your body can not in the long run.

They fit throttles on motorized vehicles so you can manage the power setting to match conditions. By managing and matching components in ones handloads, the same can be said for revolvers (and to a degree in autoloaders as well).



Three44s