The best pump shotgun

[brassrat]

I will vote for my Marlin 120 for best hidden slide release.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK I just found this thread so I will inject my .02 into the conversation. I have 3 M500's all set up as Tactical Guns. I have one Ithaca M37 which was my first shotgun.

The Ithaca was made in 1940 and was recently refurbished and restocked. It is NICE! But it is not a Tactical Gun by any means! Mine has a Cutts Compensator with all the choke tubes. The reason I say it is not a Tactical Gun is because there is no way to single load the thing without just stuffing a round in the magazine and cycling the action. You can't Ejection Port load one. You almost can, but it is not easy to do. It is best to not run one dry during a fight, you have to be loading the magazine constantly as that is the only way you can keep the gun firing.
Mine also doesn't have a Disconnector in the trigger group so it will slam fire which is a pain since I was taught to trap the trigger on every shot. It is hard to shoot Skeet with for that reason. I am getting the trigger group updated to the post 1975 configuration with the disconnector soon. It handles so nice it is criminal, and it looks really nice! see pics below.

The reason it has downward ejection is because JMB designed it as his "Duck Gun" that ejected spent shells down into the boat as opposed to over the side.!

As far a Tactical Pump Action Shotguns go, IMHO Mossberg has the top guns out there. That's why the Army buys them!

The only gun you can really compare them to, are Rem 870's and the 870's have some problems that aren't readily noticeable until you start running one in an intense training environment or a class where you are shooting hundreds of rounds in a day. Then they show up big time.

First: the Mberg has the Safety on the top of the receiver which makes the gun Ambi..
Second: the Mberg has the bolt release behind the trigger guard so you don't have to move your trigger finger to operate it. You use your middle finger.
Third: the 870 has a bump on the lifter which gets in the way of port loading the gun. If the slide is moved forward even 1/4" the lifter pops up and blocks the Ejection Port. The reason for this I was told, is when you are laying on your side under a car and you rack the slide the new round doesn't fall out on the ground. I don't do that very often so I can cover the port with my strong hand and not lose the round, or lay on my left side so the round doesn't fall out.
Fourth: the Mberg has Dual Extractors and Op Rods.
Fifth: the Ejection Port on the Mberg is larger than the 870 and thus easier to get rounds into during single loading.

The Aluminum Receiver is not an issue at all as everything that matters as far as the gun's strength is made of steel and all the Receiver does is hold it all together. If it wasn't safe and serviceable the Army would have never bought them.

These are all real considerations, that will matter when it really counts. That said,,, there are plenty of Police 870's out there and they are more than up to the job. If that's what you have you just need to learn how to run the gun so you don't get bit by the things I mention above. It can be done and there are plenty of guys and girls who can. I've seen hundreds in my Shotgun Classes at Front Sight.

But that said, IMHO the Mossberg is a Superior Tactical Shotgun..

Randy

[HWooldridge]

OK I just found this thread so I will inject my .02 into the conversation. I have 3 M500's all set up as Tactical Guns. I have one Ithaca M37 which was my first shotgun.

The Ithaca was made in 1940 and was recently refurbished and restocked. It is NICE! But it is not a Tactical Gun by any means! Mine has a Cutts Compensator with all the choke tubes. The reason I say it is not a Tactical Gun is because there is no way to single load the thing without just stuffing a round in the magazine and cycling the action. You can't Ejection Port load one. You almost can, but it is not easy to do. It is best to not run one dry during a fight, you have to be loading the magazine constantly as that is the only way you can keep the gun firing.
Mine also doesn't have a Disconnector in the trigger group so it will slam fire which is a pain since I was taught to trap the trigger on every shot. It is hard to shoot Skeet with for that reason. I am getting the trigger group updated to the post 1975 configuration with the disconnector soon. It handles so nice it is criminal, and it looks really nice! see pics below.

The reason it has downward ejection is because JMB designed it as his "Duck Gun" that ejected spent shells down into the boat as opposed to over the side.!

As far a Tactical Pump Action Shotguns go, IMHO Mossberg has the top guns out there. That's why the Army buys them!

The only gun you can really compare them to, are Rem 870's and the 870's have some problems that aren't readily noticeable until you start running one in an intense training environment or a class where you are shooting hundreds of rounds in a day. Then they show up big time.

First: the Mberg has the Safety on the top of the receiver which makes the gun Ambi..
Second: the Mberg has the bolt release behind the trigger guard so you don't have to move your trigger finger to operate it. You use your middle finger.
Third: the 870 has a bump on the lifter which gets in the way of port loading the gun. If the slide is moved forward even 1/4" the lifter pops up and blocks the Ejection Port. The reason for this I was told, is when you are laying on your side under a car and you rack the slide the new round doesn't fall out on the ground. I don't do that very often so I can cover the port with my strong hand and not lose the round, or lay on my left side so the round doesn't fall out.
Fourth: the Mberg has Dual Extractors and Op Rods.
Fifth: the Ejection Port on the Mberg is larger than the 870 and thus easier to get rounds into during single loading.

The Aluminum Receiver is not an issue at all as everything that matters as far as the gun's strength is made of steel and all the Receiver does is hold it all together. If it wasn't safe and serviceable the Army would have never bought them.

These are all real considerations, that will matter when it really counts. That said,,, there are plenty of Police 870's out there and they are more than up to the job. If that's what you have you just need to learn how to run the gun so you don't get bit by the things I mention above. It can be done and there are plenty of guys and girls who can. I've seen hundreds in my Shotgun Classes at Front Sight.

But that said, IMHO the Mossberg is a Superior Tactical Shotgun..

Randy

Beautiful 37 you have there - I have a 20 ga with a Polychoke. Made in the 1960’s but it’s basically brand new; I doubt it had two boxes of shells through it when it came into my possession. It’s my primary dove gun.

[nhithaca]

Randy, I'm not so sure JMB designed the 20 gauge Remington 17 (direct predecessor to the Ithaca 37) as a duck gun. Its generally accepted that at that time duck guns were almost always 12 or 10 gauge long barrel designs. Being a great admirer of both the Ithaca 37 and JMB, I would be very interested in where that information came from.

We may never really know the reason for the bottom ejection design for the Model 17/37, but my theory is that the marketing people at Remington wanted a 20 gauge gun to compete with the Winchester Model 12 and to complement the existing Model 10 (and later Model 29 both with bottom ejection) that they were already cataloging. And being the design genius that he was, JMB came up with a very long lived and simple design, still in production. Like I said, just a theory.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Randy, I'm not so sure JMB designed the 20 gauge Remington 17 (direct predecessor to the Ithaca 37) as a duck gun. Its generally accepted that at that time duck guns were almost always 12 or 10 gauge long barrel designs. Being a great admirer of both the Ithaca 37 and JMB, I would be very interested in where that information came from.

We may never really know the reason for the bottom ejection design for the Model 17/37, but my theory is that the marketing people at Remington wanted a 20 gauge gun to compete with the Winchester Model 12 and to complement the existing Model 10 (and later Model 29 both with bottom ejection) that they were already cataloging. And being the design genius that he was, JMB came up with a very long lived and simple design, still in production. Like I said, just a theory.

It came from the book on the "The Life of John Moses Browning." When he designed that gun the locals were starting to get fed up with paper shotshells floating around in the Great Salt Lake. And there were lots of them as the Duck Season was a popular thing since the Salt Lake is a major stop on the flyway south. JMB liked shooting ducks, and so his answer to the problem was that gun. Why else would he deviate from the existing practice of side ejection. These are the only conventional shotguns ever made that have bottom ejection.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

You know, last month I read (audible) "The guns of John Browning". There is great detail on why and how his Winchester 93/97 came about, then the automatic/auto-5, and finally the model 12. Then there is the breakup from Winchester, going to FN and Remington. I don't recall ever once hearing about any bottom eject pump action. Some internet research shows very little in the way of why he chose to design the Remington model 17 as a bottom eject. I did find that the Remington model 10 came first, and was designed as a bottom eject by John Pedersen. It could be as simple as nhithaca says, Remington asked Browning to design a smaller counterpart. It would make sense, being as the later Ithaca 37 became the lightest pump actions available.

I have zero experience with the model 10 or 17. In looking at disassembly videos, the model 10 obviously has a lot of inspiration from the Winchester 1897. The model 17 wins hands down for simplicity of manufacture, but the model 10 is a very cool looking design I have never looked into before. It looks like it could possibly solve one of the 17's, and later Ithaca 37's biggest flaw.

[nhithaca]

megasupermagnum
I'm not sure as to what it is you are referring to about the 17/37"s biggest flaw. If it is the difficulty in single loading direct to chamber then the Model 10 fails terribly. There happens to be a nearly 60 minute you-tube video solely on the Model 10 and they clearly state that the gun is nearly impossible to single load. As I stated before, we were taught on a Model 17 using single loading to shoot clay pigeons because my father did not believe in handing a new shooter a fully loaded gun (at least at first). With practice, it became second nature. That and he was cheap when it came to using up precious shot shells and he didn't want us to be taking second shots!!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK just so you know, It is possible to single load a M37, however it is not easy. I played with it one day until I figured it out but it requires a lot of concentration and is not a viable way to single load under stress.

You have to Eject the spent round and then move the slide forward slightly so the lifter goes up out of the way. Then you can get a round up into the receiver far enough to introduce it into the chamber then close the bolt. If you move the slide too far forward you can't get a shell in front of the bolt, and have to fiddle with it to go ahead.

You are better off just loading into the magazine and cycling the action, or better yet not running the gun dry in the first place!

My gun was made in 1940, so it has no disconnector in the trigger group so it will slam fire. Since I have been taught to trap the trigger on every gun I shoot this becomes a problem when shooting Skeet Doubles. I don't want to try to learn a special operation for only one gun and it would bleed over into all the rest when I didn't want it to. The M37 was updated in 1975 to include a disconnector to prevent this. My trigger group is going to Ithaca for this mod soon. Maybe today!

Randy

[jaguarxk120]

I have a couple of later Model 37's, the pump fire feature is not there on my later models.
When holding the trigger back and operating the action, the hammer will follow the bolt
as it goes into lockup.
Would like to know how Ithaca puts a disconnector into the trigger group.

[Rapier]

M-12 riot barrel, extended tubes, a real hopper and chopper with 00 or 000. You just load the extended tube, put it on your hip, pull trigger and and pump, Makes one real brush chopper.

[Texas by God]

I was playing Rambo with my dad's model 37 slam firing it. The top extractor broke and it was a LONG "4to 6 weeks" to get it in the mail from Ithaca, put it in and test it so I'd quit getting the hairy eye from Dad!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[megasupermagnum]

M-12 riot barrel, extended tubes, a real hopper and chopper with 00 or 000. You just load the extended tube, put it on your hip, pull trigger and and pump, Makes one real brush chopper.

How did you extend the magazine on a model 12?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a couple of later Model 37's, the pump fire feature is not there on my later models.
When holding the trigger back and operating the action, the hammer will follow the bolt
as it goes into lockup.
Would like to know how Ithaca puts a disconnector into the trigger group.

The late model (post 1975) parts fit right in the trigger housing in place of the existing parts. Or so I'm told.

Randy

[jaguarxk120]

Yes, but what parts are different or added??

[W.R.Buchanan]

Obviously there is a Disconnector or Trigger and probably a different Hammer. It only costs $75 so it can't be to much

It really doesn't matter because they won't sell you the parts. You have to send your trigger group to them for the mod.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

How did you extend the magazine on a model 12?

You don't unless it's custom.

A buddy has a very nice M12 Trench Gun. I want to shoot it but that will never happen since he won't shoot it either. It has the bayonet and it's 95%. He was offered 5K for it and he would not sell it. https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...h-gun-preview/

[HawkEyeEarl]

I have had some Mossbergs in various gauges over the years. They work.

I had several very early Ithaca 37s made in the first year or two of production. They were the smoothest pumps I have ever used. Light and smooth and pretty. I liked them.

I have had many Remington 870s from early blue wing masters to police magnums to special fields. I still use a special field.

I have used Winchester 1897s and model 12s. I like these, especially the model 12. I like their looks. I still use a model 12. I would not say the 1897 is smooth. It is tough and is dependable and I am used to it. It is the first shotgun I ever used that was not a single barrel or double barrel that I ever used as a youngster.

I guess there are several bests in there. Some gone and some I have kept.

[Bigslug]

The 870 shell lifter never blocks the open action. It can be up in the front of the ejection port but if you pus the new shell in the port by pushing the back end in first like you are supposed to, it goes right in pushing the lifter down and out of the way. Trying to shove a shell up into the chamber from a bottom eject gun is not the easiest nor fastest way to chamber load a shotgun. 870 or mossberg 500.I prefer the 870 mostly because as a range master for a Dept of Corrections, it was the gun we used and I am very familiar with it and have a lot of training and range time with it. I worked at three different prisons and each had 5 or 6 870s. Two or three were used for yearly requals by every officer in the prision and had a lot of buckshot and slugs ran through them. In my 20 years in corrections, I never saw one fail. Can you make one malfunction? Yes, the easiest way is to put a round in backwards, and yes I have seen it happen.

I don't like a safety on top of the action. As a Range Master I like to be able to tell quickly whether the safety is on or off when I'm training or qualifying someone. The top safetys are kind of hard to tell compared to the push through safety.

For a hunting shot gun little of this matters as there is no hurry to get the gun firing or reloaded.

Always interesting to hear the the experiences of my counterparts. For me, I really liked the 870 until I spent years armoring their solid-state triggers and shell latches, and trying to teach folks without much of a gun background how to run it, and that's the familiarity that's bred the contempt.

AH YES. . .Backwards-loaded shells! They lock up an 870 quite nicely. They'll probably do the same for any other gun (i.e.Model 12) with a flappy style shell carrier that springs downward as soon as you release your thumb off the shell. The shell stop doesn't know which way the round is facing, and it'll grab the round just like it's supposed to. Only problem is now the carrier can't elevate with the front half of the reversed shell sticking out in it's path. Only way to clear it is to reach in round the carrier with a screwdriver or some other pokey thing and trip the shell latch clear of the rim. As an aside, those spring-down carriers are really good at pinching your gloves on a reload.

The Mossberg's elevated carrier doesn't suffer from this. A backwards round will either fall straight out when the gun is cycled, or you can give it a grab and yank. A '97 Winchester is similarly open-bottomed, and the later ones with the external shell latch actuator buttons would make short work of that problem.

The cross-bolt safeties in my experience give left handers fits, and a lot of righties can't seem to grasp which is the correct way to push it for the desired function. The tang mounts seem a little more intuitive - - push it toward the threat or in the direction the bullets go to fire; back away from the threat to safe it.

The action release up at the front of the trigger guard has horrified me more than once when folks go reaching around all over the trigger guard area looking for it. Put it behind the trigger and you can leave your index finger in place along the receiver and open the gun with the middle finger.

So yeah. . .with a skilled operator, I don't care about brand too much, but my preferences have been largely shaped by seeing what happens when you attach guns to those humans for whom anything without a detachable mag and a semi auto action is like tech dropped from an alien spacecraft. The all run great when you do things right. It all comes down to which is more resistant to things done wrong.

[atr]

my vote.....20ga. Ithaca 37

[agcannon]

I'm not much of a shotgun guy. I don't hunt, I have a mossberg 500 12 gauge for home defense. 20' barrel, and interchangeable choke tubes. keep a full choke tube in it and 00 buck.

The only other pump I've had was a winchester 1300 turkey gun I inherited from my Dad. gave it to my nephew since he hunts. seemed a little tighter than the mossberg.

The mossberg is great for what I need a shotgun for, I would prefer a 500 in 20 gauge as I'm getting older