Factors beyond burn rate

[CraigOK]

What are the other factors beyond burn rate for picking a powder that will work for the intended application?

I'm interested in what can be used for reduced loads in rifles, but also just a higher level of understanding.

Some can be loaded below starting levels for reduced loads (H4895)

Some should never be used below publisged starting load levels (H110/W296)

Some do need fillers and some don't need fillers.

If you look at the different powders of comparable burn rate from different manufacturers what is it that makes each one a better or worse fit for a given application?

[Bazoo]

A flexible powder that is useful through a wide variety of case shapes and volumes and pressure ranges is what I prefer. I don't necessarily look to download rifle powder. IMR 3031, 4895, 4064 are of this type. H335 for example is not, it doesn't take to downloading nor large cases.

I'm not sure what the term for what you're seeking is, but I research the same things. Through researching what others have success with, you're able to ascertain a powders personality under different conditions.

[Winger Ed.]

Burn rate is only part of the story.
Burn rate isn't enough all by itself for selecting a powder to use in a given application.

How fast and how powerful its pressure curve comes on is also part of what determines a powder's application and versatility.
Some will act differently if they have more or less air space in one case than others cases.
The same powder will act/perform differently with different weights of bullets, and different barrel lengths also.

If you get away from what's already recommended in the Lyman books for example, or 'tried & true' load data--
ya really need some lab. equipment like they use to figure this stuff out.

Experimentation with loading smokeless powders doesn't favor those going into uncharted waters.

[CraigOK]

Yeah, I'm not interested in blazing new trails atm. I just know when the supply dries up people start to look for alternatives which is what got me thinking about this. I managed to find a lb of Red dot so I can use "the load" within the parameters that have been spelled out. However I dont have unique or 2400 so what other powders have a similar burn rate and act like them. I hadn't thought about free space, but that makes sense I suppose since some powders don't shine until nearly compressed.

[Winger Ed.]

Red Dot is good stuff.
For .30-06 and practice stuff, I'm pretty well switching over to it, and am happy with it.

2400 has almost a cult following in its applications, for good reasons.

[40-82 hiker]

Craig,

You don't say how "reduced" you want, but just for the joy of shooting, I shoot mouse fart loads in my 30-06 with Bullseye and cast boolits. It's a grin a minute! Search mouse fart loads here on CB... I get incredible accuracy with my loads, but mostly shoot them at 50 yards from sitting position.

[CraigOK]

I want some loads the kids can shoot. I'd like to be able to work those loads up in power/energy/recoil until they are good to get a humane kill with. I'd also like to be able to shoot more rounds with low recoil. I have a couple 30 cal lee molds, none in .224 or .243 currently. Not sure when I might be able to find bullseye, or other cast friendly and reduced friendly powders. I do have some other fast powders that may fit the bill. Also not sure when I might be able to get more molds.

[dverna]

Agree with Winger Ed....but I use Promo (same as RD) as it is less expensive. It is one of my 4 "stocking powders" No fillers needed. You can drive a 150-170 gr bullet in the .308 to 1500-1700 fps.

[Ickisrulz]

I use Promo in 338 win mag and 2400 in 30-06 and 308 for lead bullets. I get around 1550 fps in these rifles and acceptable accuracy that allows my son and I to ring small metal targets from 100-200 yards in the backyard. It's cheap fun.

[CraigOK]

So the only hard rule is if you think you know what you want to use search the forum for the dos and donts with that particular combination?

[dverna]

So the only hard rule is if you think you know what you want to use search the forum for the dos and donts with that particular combination?

The Lyman Cast Bullet book is one of the resources I use. There is also a site that has reduced loads but I need to be on my computer to get that link to you.

[gpidaho]

For reduced loads the powders I prefer are in this order. TiteGroup, Unique and Red Dot. With fast powders work up your loads in small steps as they can go from mild to wild pretty quickly. I've used as little as 2.7gr of TiteGroup in 223 with 55 or 60gr. cast and up to 8gr. in the same. beyond that your on your own. 7gr. TG makes a fun plinking round for a 210gr lead bullet in the 41mag. Gp

[Ickisrulz]

If you haven't seen it before, here is the original write-up of "The Load":

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"
(If you missed this when it appeared in Handloader's Digest, 10th Ed. here it is again...
By C.E. Harris, Revised 2-16-94
My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is $20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.
I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.
After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger."The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:
1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.
2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 189 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.
3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.
4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).
Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works!
The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.
"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester, .375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.
"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.
Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!
The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.
Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.
Regards, Ed

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Factors beyond burn rate
What are the other factors beyond burn rate for picking a powder that will work for the intended application?

I'm interested in what can be used for reduced loads in rifles, but also just a higher level of understanding.

>>>SNIP

There are hundreds of "other factors". So, there is no replacement for reading to gain a "higher level of understanding," Reading the threads here, reading books like Ken Waters Pet loads...and other reloading manuals written by independent people, like Nick Harvey. Now Powder company's, equipment companies, and bullet companies put out great reloading manuals with great load data, but you aren't likely to find alternative info for cast boolit loads in them.

asking about specific powders here, you will likely get some specific "other factors" that will help you out. I have done that a few times, specifically about older shotgun powders I've bought at gunshows, that haven't been made for decades, so most reloading manuals printed since 2000 doesn't list them, and many older manuals (some are free PDF or online viewable) only have shotgun data for such.