P.P Lube ?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Pdawg shooter,

While my post is intended solely for 45 2.1. I do thank you for your post.

Kenny W.

I probley should of just sent it to him in a PM.

[bcp477]

The old saw about paper being abrasive....because it will dull a knife... is certainly true. But, it isn't really a valid test. ANYTHING one cuts with a knife will eventually dull it. The act of cutting itself is what dulls the blade. Certainly, different materials are more or less abrasive than others - and this will simply determine HOW FAST the blade dulls - that's all. But, as I said, ANY cutting of ANY material will eventually dull a blade. So, the fact that cutting paper with a blade will dull it is no real proof of anything. You could judge the RELATIVE abrasive qualities between different materials (or different papers), by setting up a very careful and scientific test, to see how quickly each sample dulls the blade in question. That will only give a RELATIVE result - not a true measurement of how abrasive the particular material happens to be.

I am not sure myself as to how to deal with the debate concerning lubing and abrasiveness of paper patches. Copper jackets are abrasive, too. Heck, ANYTHING put through a barrel at high velocity and high pressure will likely cause abrasion. So, will paper-jacketed, soft lead alloy bullets, with no lube applied, abrade a barrel more quickly than jacketed bullets....... ??? I seriously doubt it - unless the paper used is VERY abrasive. Regardless, I just lube my patches with LLA.....and I don't worry about it beyond that. I'd be willing to bet that how long my barrel will last is more a function of the loads I use (mild, moderate velocity, as opposed to hot "barn-burner" loads) - than it is related to the patches or lubing.

[docone31]

I worked in the paper industry for quite a few years.
Paper is abrasive.
I am not sure though, that a paper patch is all that detrimental to the bore condition.
I patch smokeless, so BP might be different.
On the paper feeds, when it was single sheet, it took a lot of sheets to make a difference. A lot, I am talking years of single feeding. When there was pressure, grooves would be formed in the ledge material after a time.
Knives on paper was different. If the pressure was dialed in on the dies, the knives lasted a long time. If the pressure was too much or too little, then the blades would dull rapidly.
I have fired many patched loads through my Enfield. I have been using it as a test bed of sorts as there are barrels available inexpensively.
So far, I have coated the patch with Clover and fired 18rds through the bore, slightly undersized. It cleaned the hammer marks out and left the rifleing intact.
The same barrel, I have fired many essentially unlubed patches through it at high pressure loadings. The rifleing is apparently sharper and more distinct that it was when I started.
On the few pieces of confetti I have recovered, they were sharp cut. No feathering or tearing. Distinct rifleing lands.
The abrasive qualities of the paper appear to be very effective on feathers on the metal work inside the bore. Almost like stropping a knife blade. Since there is no lateral pressure against the bore once the rifleing is engraved, and lead is soft compared to steel, it appears to polish more than degrade proportionally. The wear seems to be on a plane in the bore rather than a chiseling against the steel. Where the forcing cone is in the chamber itself, it appears to smooth the transition without removeing the entry angle.
I do not know about BP. I have read it explodes, making the transition stronger, which would appear to contain more inertial resistance. That would make the transition more agressive, rather than engageing and forming.
From what I have seen, using only the leftover JPW on the patch, which I do not believe lasts long at all traveling the bore, any wear is very slight. Copper on the other hand is different. It is malleable. Once it is engraved, it will drag in contact with any metal or substance harder than it is. It will be a frictional wear, where paper is a constant. Any changes in the dimensions of the paper traveling down the bore is going to be more of a constant. The make up of the paper itself would have to change, like wetting the patch before wrapping.
I was involved in sword making for a long time as an hobby. After using the final stone, I would use paper to polish the metal. The reason, it did not scratch the hardened steel!
My thought is, once the rifleing is engraved, the abrasion is minimal. The wax from sizing, at least in my case, lubricates that transition.
It is like lapping the bore, once it gets started, it goes real easily. Same with a patched boolitt.
I have fired jacketed loads, and paper loads alternately. Same charge, same weight, same barrel, same case, same primer. Without test gear, I can feel the difference. The major difference, the jacketed bullets vs the paper boolitts, the paper is sized .314, where the jacketeds are .311.
Much less recoil with paper vs jacketed.
Another observation,
There is significantly less heat with paper vs jacketed. I fired 10rd sets. 10 jacketed, let cool, 10 paper. That order as if there is any residual heat from the first firing, it would add to the paper firing sequence. The opposite was true! The first 10 jacketeds fired hotter then the 10 paper.
My thought is,
Paper has less friction than copper down the bore. I might be wrong, but it appears that way. Paper gets slick when hardened, I suspect that minimizes the friction.
I might just plain be in another galaxy on this one, but heat is an issue that can be felt. I am not really sure why these Enfields did not catch on fire in a battle! I mean they get real hot.
The difference between patching, and jacketed was apparent. Less heat is less friction. Friction causes wear.
And this observation is after hitting the desired target, in the desired accuracy.
The larger diameter of the paper patch should have shown more heat. Even though the prime casting is lead. The diameter has to translate somehow.
In all my paper patched loads, .303 British, and .308 win., I noticed the same effect. Less heat for the same sequence of firing.
Paper is highly abrasive. I have seen that. In this case though, I am not sure it is not less abrasive than copper in the bore.
Just my thoughts.
I have been wrong before.

[bcp477]

Interesting, docone31. Thanks for the write-up - it is good reading.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Docone31,

Thanks for sharing that tidbit, I have only been shooting PP a tad over one year now. I know this much After spending a chilly day yesterday burning up 57 left over rounds of GG bullets for my 45-110 that PP is the only way to go with this old cannon and black powder. I have to agree with your findings so far this has been the case with my Tracing paper Patch it seems to give a slight very slight polish to the barrel. I too notice less felt recoil.

I have perhaps a touch over 1000 rounds down my 45-110 now of PP.

The Lunger
Kenny Wasserburger

[yeahbub]

Docone31, is that Turtle Wax one of those "cleaning" type waxes? After asking around, I found out that car waxes that are of the "cleaning" type have diatamaceous earth (quartz abrasive) added to remove oxides and dirt from paint. It's very fine, but abrasive none the less and would accelerate bore wear. The non-cleaning variety have no abrasives and usually the lable will specify which type it is. I'm not sure how much faster a bore would wear, but I thought I'd throw that out there. I've pressure lapped a number of barrels in the past and have been thinking of using diatomaceous earth as a fine finishing abrasive for the last part of the job.

JPW has nothing but carnauba and solvents and has no abrasive affect.

[cast405]

hello everyone,Stirling from the coast of British Columbia very first post,I use rooster jacket and don't size after lubing just let dry and load.The rifle Ruger #1 .405 330gr hoch 20-1 beinfang tracing paper (walmart) hornady brass neck sized only.

[NSP64]

Is the paper abrasive or the additives to the paper pulp. If you notice when using paper to wrap once it's wet it soffens and doesn't harden back up after drying.

I have tried LLA and didn't like it. I settled on a mix of JPW with moly powder added. leaves patch slick.

[13Echo]

I haven't tried PP yet, but intend to. I notice that patch lubes like Rooster are water emulsified or soluble wax and I see several shooters are using Johnson's Paste Wax or other waxes. I have also noticed that Lee Case Lube for resizing is a water soluble or emulsified wax that works wet or dry. It does a fine job as a case lube so I suspect it would make a dandy patch lube.

Jerry Liles

[windrider919]

I shoot .458 Win Mag, smokeless. At first I used no lube as per the BP guys. I actually started using a lube to 'glue' the PP because the humidity here on the Texas coast would unrap loaded rounds sitting in a tray right on the shooting bench. I checked around and the guys at Buffalo Arms recommended Rooster Lube. It is watter soluable but dries non- soluable.

I got some and experimented and found that what works best for me is to use 1/4 strength Rooster and water. Wet the patch and roll-on tight! Dry. My rifle throat is .463, using an as cast 460gr custom bullet of .453, it dries to .461. I do not size at all. Using stronger lube does not work because you start getting fliers. I think full strength lube 'glues' the patch to the bullet instead of shredding off. My accuracy is excellent this way, I have gotten 1.5 inch groups, sandbagged off the bench. I am shooting 1800 FPS loads and my bore is like a mirror.

[jaydee1445]

I have tried LLA and didn't like it. I settled on a mix of JPW with moly powder added. leaves patch slick.

Have you tried tumbling them in moly before sizing? I wounder if the paper would hold up?

[docone31]

With paper patching, I think Moly would be a colossal waste of materials. The paper itself seems slick enough in the bore.
I lube just for sizing, and to keep the weather off. Aside from that, I am not sure patches need any lube at all.

[jaydee1445]

With paper patching, I think Moly would be a colossal waste of materials. The paper itself seems slick enough in the bore.
I lube just for sizing, and to keep the weather off. Aside from that, I am not sure patches need any lube at all.

I was thinking more of tumble lubing vs wiping each bullet. I'm lazy.

[docone31]

If you tumble lube paper patched boolitts, you will have a bunch of paper strips, and some castings.
The patched boolitts are very stable, in their environment. After patching, they are very stable at rest. In the case, they are stable. Upon firing, they are stable through the cutting, and gasketing.

[RMulhern]

Lube

When all else fails....regular ole green axle grease works fantastic!!