simple Hi-Tek coating

[HI-TEK]

It seems the thermocouple in the bullet is catching on with the powder coating crowd. The only problem is there have been a couple of guys who have acutally tried to claim credit for the idea. I have had a running battle with one of them.Wonder I don't get banned. Anyway, if it is ok I would like to dub it the a.t.m. Ausglocks' thermocouple method. What do you think?

Hello Slide
If my memory serves me well, I think Ausglock posted his thermocouple probe matters & details some years ago. I recon, it would have been read and adopted by others.
Ausglock recently published the more detailed probe results, and also said that his first test he did not bother logging detailed temperature increases with time.
I think Ausglock needs to licence his probe method to others.

[Stephen Cohen]

Ta-dam! Fanfares?

These are my first Bismuth bullets. TMG Gold bonds just fine, I sized these with no extra lube. Bismuth alloy seems to cast larger than lead alloys,also pretty hard. And brittle.

I added 10% tin to old bismuth shot,this melts below 190°C so I've been really watching coating temps...

Will be interesting to see how they perform, but the cost of Bismuth would put an end to casting if we were not allowed to use lead alloys. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

What.. Licence my Anal Probe Method???? lol
Slide.....Mate... Knock ya self out.

The powdercoat clowns can do whatever they like, but powdercoat is still for lawn furniture...lol

[Petander]

Will be interesting to see how they perform, but the cost of Bismuth would put an end to casting if we were not allowed to use lead alloys. Regards Stephen

Bismuth is five times lead price now.

I see many europeans -who don't cast now- starting to cast alternative alloys if the lead ban comes through. All you need is bullet traps. Bismuth will get more expensive.

It's a disguised disarmament plan but well, there have been many examples as we all know. It may happen and I like to be prepared with knowledge to make legal ammo.

It's also a good reason to buy more guns because you don't want to use the same guns for bismuth tests and normal shooting practise. Heck I don't even mix copper and lead without cleaning and I have many lead-only guns.

Here are the first bismuth bullets I ever fired. Hi Tek TMG Gold coated. Thinking...I've never even seen a pic of a bismuth bullet group.

[dikman]

but powdercoat is still for lawn furniture...lol

[Stephen Cohen]

Bismuth is five times lead price now.

I see many europeans -who don't cast now- starting to cast alternative alloys if the lead ban comes through. All you need is bullet traps. Bismuth will get more expensive.

It's a disguised disarmament plan but well, there have been many examples as we all know. It may happen and I like to be prepared with knowledge to make legal ammo.

It's also a good reason to buy more guns because you don't want to use the same guns for bismuth tests and normal shooting practise. Heck I don't even mix copper and lead without cleaning and I have many lead-only guns.

Here are the first bismuth bullets I ever fired. Hi Tek TMG Gold coated. Thinking...I've never even seen a pic of a bismuth bullet group.

Results look good, maybe we can expect a drop in the price of Bismuth along with flying pigs. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Results look good, maybe we can expect a drop in the price of Bismuth along with flying pigs. Regards Stephen

I have looked at world production of Bismuth.
Volumes seem reasonable but prices are already high.
If demand increases, prices will escalate, but if there is nothing else that will work, unfortunately, users will be held to ransom, and will pay these extra prices to continue at much conservative rates..
Many will simply give up and their guns will become ornaments.
I wonder how any government can suddenly outlaw all lead use in ammunition. What will armies, law enforcement and other government agencies use?

[HI-TEK]

I have a few 1000 180gn FP 40 cal topscore bullets here from 2000. Have been moving them from the gunroom to the shed. smashed one yesterday... perfect. Not bad for a 20 year old coated lead bullet. Going to melt them down and re-cast for 9mm. Don't need 40 cal pills anymore..

Goes to show, if correct alloy is used, not waste or contaminated alloys are used, there seems to be a great advantage for long term stability of coatings on good alloys.
I never expected such results after 20 years. It is really eye opening.

[Petander]

I wonder how any government can suddenly outlaw all lead use in ammunition. What will armies, law enforcement and other government agencies use?

According to the news,lead will be outlawed for civilians only. Surprise?

I'll keep experimenting with bismuth,if SHTF I'll have reasonable cards to play with. It may be like lead shot/waterfowl thing,it's been since 90's. You just got to have some legal non toxic ammo in your pockets to show. Nobody is going to actually examine the duck.

I went to tungsten because of increasing lead no-no's. A 20 gauge TSS is one great hunting shotgun.

Which Hi Tek colour cures in the lowest temp,TruBlu?

[HI-TEK]

Which Hi Tek colour cures in the lowest temp, TruBlu?

Petander,
All coatings cure at 180C. They have to reach 180C and stay there for about another 2 minutes.
Some of the colours suffer more with higher or extended heat of baking.
We found that over heating does alter final colours. This has been posted many times previously.
Ideally, the baked product, if possible, needs to be at about 180-190C after final bake times.
The Blue, can take about 190C to about 195C as long as it is not held at that temperature for prolong time.
The Probe in cast, placed in appropriate position with each load, is a really good way to determine actual load temperatures.
Once user does the profile of their oven with a certain load, it can be easily reproduced.
Unfortunately, each oven does vary, and users must be aware of their ovens ability and capacity to do the job required.

[Petander]

Thanks Joe. That's what I thought,just wanted to make sure.

I'm only asking because my unknown bismuth alloy seems to melt at 185 °C or so. It behaves in a funny way, everything is good until you take the bullets out of the oven, 2 last min @ 180-183. Then,after about 45 secs in a cool 5°C room they start to form little alloy droplets on the surface.

If I cool them slower,like under a towel, less droplets form.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Petander;4805115]

I'm only asking because my unknown bismuth alloy seems to melt at 185 °C or so. It behaves in a funny way, everything is good until you take the bullets out of the oven, 2 last min @ 180-183. Then,after about 45 secs in a cool 5°C room they start to form little alloy droplets on the surface.

If I cool them slower,like under a towel, less droplets form.

Petander,

The explanation for this phenomena may be, that coating, as you know reflects heat or is very poor transfer conductor of heat, so now, it is working in reverse.
Coating seems to prevent adequate and quick cooling to take place, and internal part of alloy stays liquid for longer period by the insulating property of the coating.
I suspect, that after baking, the outside layer, as it chills, also starts to contract/shrink , (putting pressure onto alloy) and internal layer of alloy has not lost enough heat, and remains liquid, so this combination, forces melted metal to the surface, from inside coated alloy .
Your observation in controlling cooling rate may be confirming this, as the insulation, (coating plus cover, towel) is allowing slower release of temperature through the coating, which allows internal part of alloy also to set solid, as cooling rate is now also much more even and more controlled.

[OldBearHair]

Hey there Petander, Wow ,you guys are really trying hard for perfection.. I salute you. Should you want those bismuth bullets to cool way slower,my suggestion would be to take them from the oven and quickly put them on a bed of ashes and cover them with more ashes. The ashes should be 12 inches thick with the bullets in the middle. The ashes holds the heat well and releases it slowly. You could use a probe thermometer to find when they have cooled sufficiently. This is the way a blacksmith normalizes steel. The bismuth may harden to unusable as it cools, opposite to steel and then again it may not. Who Knows? It might be the best way to do it.

[Stephen Cohen]

I wonder if water quench would stop them sweating as they do, since you say the problem only appears when you remove them from the oven. Of cause I have no idea what this would do to Bismuth alloy. I can't say I blame them for sweating I would also if I was in a 190 deg oven with a probe in my ?. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

I wonder if water quench would stop them sweating as they do, since you say the problem only appears when you remove them from the oven. Of cause I have no idea what this would do to Bismuth alloy. I can't say I blame them for sweating I would also if I was in a 190 deg oven with a probe in my ?. Regards Stephen

Stephen,
From what I can gather, ( I may be wrong), it is the sudden chilling that seems to be causing the "bleed" from internally from alloy.
There are many recipes on the net, that can supply various results from this metal. Some use slow cooling and others use fast cooling when trying to obtain various results.
From my understanding, which may be totally incorrect here, is that rapid cooling of molten metals forms super small crystalline structures. I don't know what is result can be obtained with Bismuth, with slow, and controlled cooling rates.
For this metal, the normal treatment seems not to work, and we don't really know if slow or fast cooling produces best results for ammo production that can be reproduced and be useful.
I am thinking with Lead, we all know what happens with this metal and its alloys, but with Bismuth, this is a totally new field of experiments.

[Stephen Cohen]

Thank you Joe, it would seem that this Bismuth is a funny animal so to speak, Water quenching may actually be dangerous then. I think I will stick with lead alloy with luck lead alloy will remain legal for the few years I have left. Regards Stephen

[Petander]

Yes I'm just experimenting with the bismuth I have. It has been made into shot alloy,probably with added tin. Pure bismuth melts around 270°C or so.

I just wanted to see if Hi Tek bonds to bismuth and yes,it does. To be continued... I'll make my own alloy with less tin so it melts higher.

[Avenger442]

I may have missed it but, did you say what the hardness of the bismuth alloy was?

This probably comes under the heading of something I might experiment with, like the addition of copper to the alloy, but not use. It's always a good idea to have a plan B. But wheel weights are still out there. Roto Metals still sells casting alloy. And, because I only cast for myself, I have stores that would last me the next twenty years.

Roto Metals list bismuth bullet casting metal at about $15 + a pound and lead hard ball at about $3 + a pound plus shipping of course. My wheel weights cost me about $0.40 a pound plus and couple hours of my time and $1 worth of gas. So no comparison in the cost category.

There has been some experimenting with casting bullets out of zinc. This would probably not be able to be used with the Hi Tek.

[Petander]

My bismuth here is 20 BHN and brittle.

I wanted to try Hi Tek coating bismuth before ordering alloy from Rotometals... their 10% tin alloy melts a bit low,too,let's see.

At least I can make lead-free pistol ammo now,fwiw.

[Petander]

Guess what colour combination?