Not To Be Played With

[kens]

I just looked up Buffalo Bore ammo.
They do list a .38spl 158gr @ 1250fps. !!
Holy smokes, what are they doing?
I am not buying anything from buffalo bore.
She is fortunate you were there to assist.

[lightman]

Thats really sad. The Young Lady had a bright and promising future ahead of Her. I hope She recovers enough to continue Her career in Nursing. I also hope She will continue to shoot. It was fortunate that you were there to help and really good of you to ride with Her to the hospital.

Like most of you, I'm a conservative reloader and most of my friends are. I agree with the others, if you want magnum velocities, buy a magnum. Hot rodding a 38 is leaving a trap for someone else.

I also agree with the posters that say to forget the lawsuit. The employee at the gun shop sold the young Lady what she ask for. Maybe he should have ask questions? Maybe the shop owner should have provided some training for his employees? Maybe Buffalo should have warnings on their boxes? (maybe they do?)

[Hickok]

So sad in many ways. Dang it, I really am sorry to hear about this girl getting maimed in this incident.

[375supermag]

Hi...
I fully agree with the statements made about store clerks not being properly trained.
My son in law( nice enough guy but not particularly educated about firearms) went into Walmart a couple of years ago to buy ammunition for my daughter's 357Mag revolver.
The idiot clerk sold him a box of .357Sig ammunition. They couldn't understand why it wouldn't chamber in her revolver.
Of course, they couldn't return it to the store so I now have a box of .357Sig ammunition that I have no use for.

ned

[Battis]

I have a S&W Airweight .38 that I load with +P. Well, I used to load with +P. After reading this post, I'm going back to regular .38SP. I'll use the +P in my .357.
Thanks for posting.

[sparky45]

She most definitely should contact a Lawyer to at least recover her Medical bills AND pain and suffering. She IS going to be scarred for life, especially emotionally. The Lawyer WON'T advise to sue the clerk, most likely go for the store and possibly the ammo maker.

[osteodoc08]

ACC, my hats off to you sir. You went above and beyond in this scenario.

The reality is, this poor woman had a bright future in nursing and while she may return to nursing, will be limited.

If the gun was rated “+P” there should have been no kaboom. The firearm and ammo will need to be forensically tested. Perhaps there was a cylinder issue unaware to anyone. Perhaps the ammo was loaded incorrectly. I wish Hanna a speedy recovery and return to work. Life will never be the same for even. Even the pleasure of running her infants hair through her fingers.

[Petander]

Yes she was very lucky to have someone like ACC around. My hat is off,too.

I shoot alone quite a lot in winter. People take a winter break,I don't. Just makes you think how to handle something like that when you're all alone in an outside range deep in the woods,where only a tractor can get. And my 33" wheel truck.

Accidents can snd do happen even if you don't do anything wrong. Add to that,we are people. We make mistakes.

[Todd N.]

Stories like this are so sad no matter how they happened. Fortunately ACC was there to provide skilled first aid and emotional support. She was very fortunate in that respect.

Our hobby is one filled with hazards. Accidents happen. We've all seen or heard of accidents and incidents relating to improperly loaded ammunition, poorly maintained firearms, cartridges chambered in the wrong gun, and more. And sometimes bad things happen for no earthly reason.

Why have some people on this thread gotten to point of condemning +P and +P+ ammo? Is there nothing in your understanding of this sport that accounts for "Personal Liability"? Safe enjoyment of the shooting sports necessitates knowledge of guns, ammunition, gun handling, and shooting practices. To claim that the ammo is at fault is doing our sport an injustice.

As an example...
I shoot a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Rifle in .45-70. I also have a couple of Marlins chambered in that cartridge. They all are safe with the ammo I load. But the ammo I load would DESTROY a Trapdoor Springfield with 1 shot. Therefore, my Trapdoor hangs on the wall as a decoration, not a shooter. Does my use of heavy-loaded .45-70 mean I am a bad person or irresponsible? No.

What happened to this young woman is heartbreaking. She will carry physical and emotional scars for the remainder of her life.

But the only liability here is hers. As ACC related the story, SHE told the store clerk precisely what performance level she wanted in the ammo she would buy. None of us were at the store listening when she bought her ammo so criticizing the clerk is totally inappropriate. This had nothing to do with the power, quality or safety of the ammo. This is solely about knowledge, training and the safe practice of a dangerous hobby.
These are things we all need to keep in mind.

[Ed K]

First off good job ACC!

Going to redouble efforts here to be safe. For example a big 45 Colt fan here but flat out refuse to load anything over SAAMI pressure without an OAL that is way oversize for a Colt/clone.

If it is really true that the clerk/store/manufacturers are liable then maybe there is a valid argument that firearms/chainsaws/etc. should not even be offered for sale in the USA.

[M-Tecs]

Something isn't adding up unless it was an aluminum cylinder pre-37 Chief Special Airweight manufactured in the 50's.

https://thatweirdgunguy.com/2015/09/...-37-airweight/

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gu...12-38-special/

All the current S&W 38's are rated for 38 +P ammunition including both the Airweight titanium and stainless steel cylinder guns. Buffalo Bore does not offer a +P+ 38 load.

Whatever the cause it is tragic.

It's was a sad situation without a doubt. So are the claims by some here that +P and +P+ ammo should not exist. Both have their place and they are perfectly safe when used properly.

The following is quoted directly from a Smith & Wesson owner's manual printed in 1993:

Revolvers in which .38 Special +P ammunition can be used:
J frames - Models 60-4 (full underlug barrel only), 60-7, 60-8, 640, 649-2
K frames - Models 10, 13, 14, 15, 19, 64, 65, 66, 67
L frames - Models 581, 586, 681, 686
N frames - Models 27, 28, 627

Here is S&W's warning about +P ammunition -

"Plus P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard .38 Special ammunition. Such Pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.

"Plus P" (+P) ammunition should not be used in medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K frame) revolvers can be identified by the absence of a Model Number stamped inside the yoke cut of the frame (i.e. the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is in the open position).

The "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) marking on ammunition merely designates that it exceed established industry standards, but the designation does not represent defined pessure limits and therefore such ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated. "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) ammunition is not recommended for use in Smith & Wesson firearms.

The "Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) ammo to my understanding was a solution to PD's requiring officers to use 38 ammo in their 357 Revolvers' in the 70's. Same for the todays factory loading of +P+ 9mm ammo.

On a side note you can get the S&W Airweight in 357 Ma. with either a SS cylinder or a titanium cylinder. They are really loud and the recoil is sharp. My titanium cylinder S&W 38 is rated for +P and I will continue carry it with +P.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...8-sw-special-p

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-360-pd

[osteodoc08]

Guys, we cannot compared handloaded ammo to factory produced ammo. She had factory ammo. Boutique ammo but factory ammo still the same.

[ACC]

The Airlite cylinders are either titanium or stainless.
On a different note...as a retired Fire Captain/Emt, I would like to give ACC a big pat on the back. There are way too many people out there that would reach for a cell phone camera rather than perform immediate and effective aid.
Hopefully the young lady can put her life back together in time.

I have to be honest. I really don't know what gun it was. I was just going by what the RSO said. The reason I am Certified to teach Wilderness First Aid is that I help run the rifle range at our local Scout camp and they require you to have the training.

ACC

[ACC]

Buffalo Bore doesn't list +P+ 38 special as one of their products.

I think it is just +P. My typing when I am upset is worse than normal. Sorry. I do know it was Buffalo Bore.

ACC

[popper]

Hopefully it wasn't a OLD family pistol.

[ACC]

Guys, my wife and I are also visitation pastors of our church so we will be visiting her as often as possible. Keep me and the Mrs. in pray that God will give us the right words to say.

Andrew

[Mytmousemalibu]

That is a real shame that happened on many levels. Thank you for being there for her and seeing this young lady through ACC. Life-altering events like that usually leave some deep scars and that can be tough to get through. I hope she recovers the best she can and hope she doesn't forever have disdain for firearms. I couldn't blame her if she did though.

I would be very interested in the rest of that box of ammo to see if it had anything wrong with it or if it was the gun. Unless it was an old and exceedingly rare S&W that could have had a aluminum cylinder (those were recalled by S&W) like a Aircrewman, I doubt it was aluminum. Smith even made the actual aluminum cylinder guns with intent of only special low pressure ammo was to be use in them which stilll proved to be too weak and thus recalled. They are uncommon and most left are in collections now.

All modern Airweight J-frames are +P rated. My daily carry is a 442 Airweight aluminum frame but clearly marked +P on the barrel. Smith for a long time now has only used stainless or carbon steel and titanium for their cylinders. My 442 is carbon steel with a melonite finish. I would hedge by bets this unfortunate gal was victim to a double charge or some ammo related problem. Awful that it happened no matter the cause.

[Thundarstick]

Why have some people on this thread gotten to point of condemning +P and +P+ ammo?

But the only liability here is hers. As ACC related the story, SHE told the store clerk precisely what performance level she wanted in the ammo she would buy. This had nothing to do with the power, quality or safety of the ammo. This is solely about knowledge, training and the safe practice of a dangerous hobby.
These are things we all need to keep in mind.

I wish to"walk back"my previous condemnation of the ammo, and totally agree that the one using the firearm is completely responsible for unfortunate incidents like this. Just like if we're a reloader we are responsible for our reloads.

You know you can go out and buy a 200 hp motorcycle, take a simple test, then go out and kill yourself on it! It's your responsibility to learn to ride and control that kind of power if you choose, if you don't, it's on you. We had a young man, father of two, killed in late summer on a liter bike. He passed the basic rider course, bought an R1. A week later a truck pulled out from Tractor Supply parking lot onto a 35mph street and the motorcycle impacted the front quarter of the truck so hard that debris where ejected 100 feet backwards! It's estimated he was going in excess of 90mph at impact! These motorcycles can go from 35 to over 90 in a matter of seconds! Poor knowledge, bad judgment, and a powerful bike coast him his life.

I worked with a nurse that lost 3/4s of a hand in a lawnmower accident and was a fine nurse!

[MaryB]

I had a guy shooting hand loads in his AR-15 in the lane next to me. We have no dividers, he was 4 feet from me. We talked a bit then he loaded up and starting shooting... bang, bang bang, BANG and I felt stings in my face. I looked over and his hand was bleeding pretty bad and the receiver was in pieces. As I worked on him to stop the bleeding(I used to be an EMT many years ago... you remember the basics) I asked what powder he was using. He said Red Dot he found in the garage of the house he moved into... He ended with 22 stitches and no fingers lost. When the EMT's arrived they looked at me with this really weird look... I asked what? They said "didn't you notice the blood dripping off your face?" I had 6 fragments of aluminum embedded in my forehead and one in my cheek that they removed in the ER.

People need to stop and THINK about what they are doing when handling guns! When I am loading mags I only have 1 type of ammo out to prevent mistakes. I load my AR to 556 levels and while my Savage Axis barrel can handle it(same barrel is used for much higher pressure loads than .223) I try to not use it unless it is an emergency. I do use Buffalo Bore +p in my Walther PK380. But not for practice. I use a plain jane load with the same bullet design that is a little lower in speed and pressure. No sense beating the heck out of the pistol barrel and frame! Yes I know there is no official +p in .380!

[Budzilla 19]

ACC, glad you were there to help that young lady!!! Hope all will work out with her.