First and probably last cast bullet deer

[MT Gianni]

With bullets cast from an alloy that sticks together well forget what you knew about jacketed and break the shoulder, canon bones or both if possible. The best possible shot is to break the far shoulder. You can eat up to the hole. The near shoulder shot sends shrapnel of bones into the lung cavity which is good. The shot transmits to the spine which puts the animal down nearly immediately. I believe with the true shoulder front leg shot you loose less meat than with jacketed to the lungs, exit near a shoulder.

[Iwsbull]

I have always shot the shoulders on a deer with anything other than a bow. This deer was at a slight angle towards me and I had to shoot a bit further back on the shoulder due to the brush. I have made this shot many times with a rifle but with expanding ammo and I could always find blood if needed. I know they are not the same , but even with a 44 carbine, I had good results.
As I have said before maybe I have a skewed view of what to expect, but as light as our deer are I am going with a fast hp as LG suggested and uses.

[pmer]

Has anyone seen any difference using 16-1 or 20-1 with coated and non coated boolits?

[Drew P]

I’d be surprised if the problem was related to the material the bullet was made from.

[Iwsbull]

I’d be surprised if the problem was related to the material the bullet was made from.

What then do you believe to be the problem?

[glockky]

Here’s a doe shot with a AM 43-255R cast from 50/50 coww/pure lead at 1260fps.

[kingrj]

Very sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with cast swc on deer. I have probably taken a dozen or so deer with cast swc's in various .44 mags, .45 colts and .45 acp's and never had one run over 30 yards. However I have shot some with a rifle that ran over 100! Deer can do just about anything when shot..even with a good hit. Hope you don't get discouraged.

[jimb16]

According to this discussion, my buck should not have dropped in his tracks when I hit him with a 230 gr rnfp from a .45 colt! I always thought it was bullet placement that was important......

[mike69]

So do you think that a similar bullet design would also be good to go in a 454? Or do you or anyone have a suggestion for a 454. Of course I guess velocity is velocity as long as it is kept to 1600 or so FPS. I could use my coww supply for practice rounds and change and use 16-1 for hunting.
I do like the thought of running the higher velocities that you use instead of holding the speed down to less than 1300 as most people seem to suggest.

I'm using a hollow point bullet cast from 96-2-2 alloy in my 454 in the 1500 plus fps range with good result on deer . I've only recovered one that went the length of the deer it opened up to the bottom of the hollow point and only lost one side of it I think from hitting the hind leg bone . the bullet I'am using is the NOE SC454-290-RF

[Iwsbull]

Excellent, I was hoping that someone using cast hollow points in a 454 would chime in. After Larry G. said he was using them in a 44 at around 1400 I was hopeful that they would hold together at 454 velocity as well. That has me thinking a hp mold is in my hear future.

[mike69]

Excellent, I was hoping that someone using cast hollow points in a 454 would chime in. After Larry G. said he was using them in a 44 at around 1400 I was hopeful that they would hold together at 454 velocity as well. That has me thinking a hp mold is in my hear future.

My alloy is close to Larrys 50-50 but with less pure lead . I use the lead alloy calculator to take my coww and tin and pure to get to the 96-2-2

[Michael J. Spangler]

That kind of terminal performance isn't all that unusual for a solid cast bullet of that velocity on deer, especially if the bullet went midway or higher through the shoulder. I had several black tail do the same when hit there or with a behind the shoulder shot. Those shots usually only damage lung and the deer can go a long way before it dies. Also the higher lung shots don't bleed out very much because the blood collects down in the lung cavity ….the deer essentially drowns as the blood collects in the cavity which is why the deer can go a long ways after being hit.

I learned to envision a soccer ball low in the chest cavity between the front legs. Putting a bullet through that soccer ball will usually break down one of both legs and damage the heart or the large artery/veins concentrated there. Also since the bullet holes are low the blood can drain or pump out to leave a blood trail. I also learned to use a HP cast bullet of the correct alloy.

I first started off, in the 44 magnum, with a 429421 "Keith" bullet HP'd. Results were better but I had to use a hard alloy to maintain accuracy with top end Magnum loads in the 1300 - 1400 fps range. I then tried a 429244 GC'd HP and it was excellent, especially with a binary alloy of 20-1 or 16-1 alloy. Then I found, for me anyway, the Holy Grail of HP cast bullets for the 44 Magnum.....The Lyman "Devastator" 429640 HP. My mould, with a 16-1 alloy, produces excellent HP bullets that weigh 270 gr fully dressed. I do not PC btw but AC them, use Hornady GCs, size at .430 and use BAC lube on them. I push those right at 1400 fps with excellent accuracy out of my 6 1/2" FTBH. I use that bullet for hunting only so the cost of 1000 GC is nil as is the slower casting pace with a single cavity HP mould. I cast strictly for quality with those bullets so speed of casting is not an issue. I have I have a Lee 6 holer [TL430-240-SWC] and two Lyman 4 holers [429421 and 429360] which cast copious amounts of bullets pretty fast for general/plinking/small game loads.

The Devastator is my preferred hunting bullet in my 44 Magnums, you might consider it.

Attachment 253944

Larry this is one picture that always catches my eye. I’ve probably saved it and your description of this load a dozen times.

I was wondering if you would recommend the same style of load for a 357. I’m in on the 359640 group buy and figured those numbers would work just as well when matched up to similar 357 loads.
Of course there are 3 pin styles to work with but I’m guess I could load some and balance the use of say the cup point pin to the faster loads with the same 50/50 + 2% alloy. Then maybe the large hollow with that alloy and a middle magnum load.
Am I on track here?

[Iwsbull]

Those boolits that Mike and Larry cast with that huge crater in the top just look nasty, and the one that Mike recovered you can just tell it brought smoke all the way and held together really well at those speeds.
So it looks like either 16/1 or 50/50+2% for awesome hunting boolits.

[Screwbolts]

WOW, I really like popcorn also!

Ken

[Larry Gibson]

Larry this is one picture that always catches my eye. I’ve probably saved it and your description of this load a dozen times.

I was wondering if you would recommend the same style of load for a 357. I’m in on the 359640 group buy and figured those numbers would work just as well when matched up to similar 357 loads.
Of course there are 3 pin styles to work with but I’m guess I could load some and balance the use of say the cup point pin to the faster loads with the same 50/50 + 2% alloy. Then maybe the large hollow with that alloy and a middle magnum load.
Am I on track here?

Depends on what the 357 Magnum is fired in. With rifles, SS handguns and 8 - 10" revolvers you can get the velocity where the ternary alloy will expand well. However, in handguns with velocities under 1500 fps, I still prefer the 16-1 binary alloy. In revolvers where the magnum level velocity with be 1150 - 1350 fps I still prefer 20-1 alloy. I would first try those binary alloys if the GB 359640 is GC'd(?). If the GB bullet is PB or if the velocity is above 1500 fps then the ternary alloy will probably work best. With a new bullet such as the 359640 for use in a revolver what I would do is work up a magnum level load with the COWW + 2% tin +50% lead alloy and then cast some of all three alloys. I would then test for accuracy with hunting level being the acceptable criteria not "the best" accuracy. I would also test all three alloyed bullets for expansion and penetration with the magnum level load in sopping wet newsprint at 25 and 50 yards. Only such testing will answer your question for sure with what alloy the bullet expands well, holds together and gives sufficient penetration.

[res45]

straight clip on and powder coated 43-258j very accurate bullet 13.5 grains hs-6 average mv 1264. Should have softened up some in the cook for the powdercoat.

I didn't see it mentioned but the BHN of your COWW's want change any if much at all if you air cooled you bullets at casting and allowed them to air cool after powder coating, it stays pretty much the same. This chart will give you a general idea of what happens.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Depends on what the 357 Magnum is fired in. With rifles, SS handguns and 8 - 10" revolvers you can get the velocity where the ternary alloy will expand well. However, in handguns with velocities under 1500 fps, I still prefer the 16-1 binary alloy. In revolvers where the magnum level velocity with be 1150 - 1350 fps I still prefer 20-1 alloy. I would first try those binary alloys if the GB 359640 is GC'd(?). If the GB bullet is PB or if the velocity is above 1500 fps then the ternary alloy will probably work best. With a new bullet such as the 359640 for use in a revolver what I would do is work up a magnum level load with the COWW + 2% tin +50% lead alloy and then cast some of all three alloys. I would then test for accuracy with hunting level being the acceptable criteria not "the best" accuracy. I would also test all three alloyed bullets for expansion and penetration with the magnum level load in sopping wet newsprint at 25 and 50 yards. Only such testing will answer your question for sure with what alloy the bullet expands well, holds together and gives sufficient penetration.

Thanks Larry!

[Iwsbull]

I didn't see it mentioned but the BHN of your COWW's want change any if much at all if you air cooled you bullets at casting and allowed them to air cool after powder coating, it stays pretty much the same. This chart will give you a general idea of what happens.

Thanks for that chart that is very helpful. Thanks to everyone that has offered so much useful information. I really do appreciate it as it saves me and others so much time, money and frustration. Y’all have been a wealth of knowledge.

[wv109323]

If you punched a .44 cal. hole through a deer and there was no blood then the bullet was in the wrong place. With a pistol you do not get any hydro-shock so the bullet must pass through vital organs. Did you do any examination of the bullets path through the animal? The bullet may have hit a bone and was deflected away from the vital organs.

[35 Whelen]

Was really disappointed in the results I had. They are great to practice with and I suppose if I need to shoot through a large heavy animal but for deer not so much. 30 yards in one shoulder out behind the other shoulder or a drop of blood in the 120-150 yards it ran. 5 hours of searching not any blood. Even the last few yards to its final test nada.
I will either go j bullet or maybe try a hollow point. The swc with a .32 meplate (44 mag at 1260fps) just didn’t preform as I hoped.

I believe you made a bad shot. I think I understand that you recovered the deer (?), did you trace the path of the bullet?

I don't consider myself an expert, but I've killed a handful of deer, a couple of hogs and a javelina with cast bullets and when shot through the lungs or heart, they don't go far, at all.

Three weeks ago I shot this buck at 41 yds. with the pictured revolver (4 3/4" Uberti Frisco 45 Colt). Bullet was a 288 gr. SWC from an RCBS 45-270 SAA mold cast from ACWW with an average MV of 983 fps. Fired, heard the bullet hit, (I watched curiously as a tuft of white hair floated to the ground) and he ran off into the broomweeds and mesquites. I holstered my revolver and walked right to him some 25 or so yds. from where he was hit.



Here's what the entrance wound looked like-



...and the hole through the lungs-



This is very typical of my experiences when shooting whitetails with cast solid SWC's be it .44 Special or 45 Colt. I've never lost one and never had one run over about 30 yds., if that. I've only recovered a single bullet, a 258 gr. SWC from an RCBS 44-250KT cast from ACWW. It struck a buck at about 1050 fps behind the last rib of the left side and travelled up to the juncture of the neck and the right shoulder.



I've used cast HP's three times so far. The first was from a 5 1/2" Uberti Bisley 45 Colt, a 265 gr. SWCHP (Miha's version of the RCBS 45-270) cast at 8.5 Bhn and running somewhere around 1060 MV. The buck was 48 yds, away and the bullet struck high behind the right shoulder clipping the spine and stopping under the hide on the far side. The buck never took a step.





Last year I shot a buck with my 7 1/2" Uberti Flat Top .44 Special. It was loaded with a 243 gr. SWCHP (Miha's version of the 429244) @ 8.5 Bhn running just over 1100 fps. He was at 38 yds. angling slightly right and away. The bullet hit behind the left shoulder, busted a couple of ribs, passed through the lungs, broke another rib or two, through the off shoulder and stopped under the hide. That buck too dropped where he stood and the bullet performed great-



The other HP kill was from my Rossi .357 carbine and the bullet was a 162 gr. RNFPHP from a Miha mold, 8.5-9.0 Bhn. It was running 1700 fps MV and struck a sow at 40 yds. high in the left shoulder, angled down and stopped under the hide on the far side. I also cast the same bullet with smaller HP cavity weighing closer to 170 grs. that I'd intended to use, but the cartridges with those bullets were in the magazine, not the chamber . Anyhow she didn't run too far and the bullet did pretty good.





So, I've only killed two deer and the sow with HP's, but in both cases of the deer they dropped where they stood. If I knew I would only have broadside shots, I might use HP's from now on, but I see two problems with HP's- 1) Penetration is greatly reduced due to the larger frontal area. If I have to pick between a bigger hole and assured penetration, I'm going to take penetration every time. 2) HP's require velocity to expand which means more recoil and noise. Conversely, the solid SWC's I've used on game in all but one case struck at less than 950 fps, some of them closer to 900 fps, and they all worked fine.

SO there you are....

35W