Just got a 45/70. Any recommendations for 2000fps?

[GregLaROCHE]

In Hogdon’s specs you would be over 40,000 CUP. Are Marlin lever guns rated to take that much? I don’t know. Does someone know where to find that spec?

[M-Tecs]

The 45/70 SAAMI standard is 28,000 PSI/CUP. Normally CUP and PSI are different however at 28,000 they are the same. The 45/70 SAAMI was established to be safe with ALL the weak design 45/70's from start. Any 45/70 load over what is referred to as Trapdoors loads are over SAAMI spec, however, normally three categories for 45/70 are used. Trapdoor, lever gun and Ruger #1/bolt gun.


The 2,000 FPS with a 405 is within the normal lever gun recommended loads.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

" There are many opinions regarding prudent pressure limits for the 45-70 lever-gun. They range from those advocating 28,000-cup/28,000-psi load levels, to those advocating 42,000-cup/45,000-psi load levels. It is our view that given the mechanical characteristics of the modern 45-70 lever-gun, and the enormous amount of power that can be achieved within modest chamber pressure levels, the prudent course leads to a point somewhere in between. We have chosen to impose a maximum average chamber pressure limit for our 45-70 Hammerhead Ammo of 33,000-cup/35,000-psi. It is often claimed that the Marlin 1895 is completely safe with load levels up to 43,000-PSI, and that the modern Winchester 1886 is safe to 50,000-psi. This analysis is based on the strength of the respective lockups. We do not take exception with these claims. "

[GregLaROCHE]

Hogdon’s specs say you can do it, so if it does blow up and you can prove you followed their guidelines, I guess you can sue them. Other powder manufacturers say only in Ruger and Mauser type actions.

I’ve been shooting and reloading one for over thirty years. A lot changes in that time. Are the new guns built the same as thirty years ago? Maybe they are stronger today.

I still would like to know what CUP exactly Marlin says the 1895 is rated for. The 450 may not be exactly the same.

[screwcutter]

The 1895 Marlin is said to be able to take 40,000 cup because the 444 Marlin operates at this level, also the 450 Marlin goes to 43,500psi. This in my humble opinion is apples vs oranges. The 444 and 1895 use deep square threads, the 45/70 case is .030” larger than the 444 case, that cuts into the safety margin of an action that was made for the 30/30. The 1895M has a shallower V thread and was not modified to feed the large rim of the 45/70. I have shot some heavy loads out of my 1895. A gunsmith buddy show me a couple of hot rodded 1895s, both had bulged chambers, one had a crack on the receiver, I quickly saw the error in my ways. My shoulder thanks me.

[Stopsign32v]

I don't think people should post such things if there is a lot of personal "I don't know" involved.

A Marlin 1895 sending a 2,000fps 45/70 is perfectly safe and within it's limits.

[longbow]

I am a little surprised at all the speculation in this thread.

A fairly quick internet search turns up a great deal of data for the 1895 Marlin and the various load levels for .45-70 depending on the type of gun.

As stated, SAAMI spec is for 28,000 CUP which is for older style BP cartridge guns like trap door Springfields. The Marlin and Winchester 1886 modern made lever guns are in the mid range for max. pressure at 40,000 CUP.

The Hodgdon site shows several loads for 400 gr. bullets that run at or very close to 2000 FPS at no more than 40,000 CUP so certainly doable at safe pressure.

Recoil will likely be the limiting factor not... getting a 400 gr. boolit to 2000 FPS.

I developed a bad flinch shooting my first heavy loaded .45-70 ammunition! To each his own... if you want that performance level you can certainly achieve it safely.

I should note that even after I toned loads down some they were running high in the Marlin pressure range but were quite accurate in the old microgroove barrel. Not sure if Marlin even makes microgroove barrels anymore. I liked mine and like my microgroove 1894.

The .45-70 is an excellent round and will provide shooting pleasure from mild to wild in lever action guns and even wilder in bolt action or single shot. It will get the job done!

Longbow

[44Blam]

I ran some 405s around 2000 fps in a Marlin 1895, but it was effing painful... They were under a slightly compressed varget load and near Max listed loads in the Lee modern reloading book.

Edit: the heaviest loads I shot were 55 grain of varget and the Lee modern reloading lists that as 1845 fps... Might be 2000 in the 24" barrel, though...
However, I am sending 380 grn boolits at 1800 fps and it is a lot less recoil.

[Tazman1602]

MILLIONS of 2,000 Lb. Buffalo were hunted almost to extinction with a 500 grain bullet in front of 70 grains black powder....Around 1100 FPS.........do you need more than that?

405 grain @2000FPS.......OOOOOUUUUUCCCCCHHHHHHH!!!!

Art

[GregLaROCHE]

OKAY, let’s end this. I was wrong. I have no problem admitting it. However, it is not in SAMI specs, but there are no specs other than the for the BP Trapdoor rifles. With a lot of experimenting, it seems to be evident that the Marlins can take those pressures.

I have learned a lot from this forum. When I say “I don’t know” it’s a way of saying show me or teach me. I have learned and it makes me happy because, when the weather warms up, I will probably try some.

Have a happy new year and keep enjoying this wonderful rifle.

[jaydub in wi]

When I first got my 1895, I bought 100 405 grain cast flat points. I loaded these up with 50 grains of H4198. Recoil is brutal. Accuracy was very good. My FIL gave me a box of 400 grain Speers, and I loaded them with H4198 again. This time, I used 44 grains. I would guess it clocks around 1700 fps. Recoil is stiff, but it's much more managable. Accuracy is still quite good. I would try loads at this level first before going higher.

[mehavey]

Hodgdon says you can do it.
Go for it

But in so doing . .
I absolutely do mean horrendous hurt, harm, anguish and turmoil by my post.

[screwcutter]

Here’s a chicken little story. Take an action designed for the 30/30 with a head diameter of .422” operating at 38,000 cup, modify it to take a cartridge .050” larger and another 6,000 cup then modify again for another .030” larger cartridge and say it is safe for 40,000 cup.

“””
Longbow,
The Marlin and Winchester 1886 modern made lever guns are in the mid range for max. pressure at 40,000 CUP.

Stopsign32v
A Marlin 1895 sending a 2,000fps 45/70 is perfectly safe and within it's limits.
“””

And the question nobody asks: What do Marlin and Winchester say about this?
I bet they would say 28,000 cup.

[M-Tecs]

I am surprised that Winchester and Marlin even allow handloads, however, they are not going to recommend anything that is not SAAMI period.

S&W does not allow handloads unless "ALWAYS USE THE CORRECT AMMUNITION FOR YOUR PARTICULAR FIREARM as indicated by the marking on the barrel. Never use non-standard, reloaded, or “handloaded” ammunition which has not been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing" Have you ever sent a cartridge out for pressure testing???? https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sit...6560000_nc.pdf

The 45 Colt in the 460 S&W is a good example of the reality of SAAMI confusion. The SAAMI max for the 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI yet the 460 S&W max pressure is 65,000 psi. Per S&W a 45 Colt with a pressure of 14,001 psi is unsafe yet a 460 S&W in the same gun is 100% safe at 65,000 psi???????

Per Winchester and Marlin.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/conten...886_OM_WEB.pdf

The barrel and action of this rifle have been made with substantial safety margins over the pressures developed by established American loads. However, we assume no responsibility for incidents which occur through the use of cartridges of nonstandard dimension or those developing pressures in excess of SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute) established standards

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/sites...ev_2016-01.pdf

Firearms are designed, manufactured and proof-tested to standards based on factory-loaded ammunition. Handloaded or reloaded ammunition that deviates, either intentionally or accidentally, from load or component recommendations can be very dangerous.
Reloaders must observe all possible safety precautions and practices related to the proper handling of explosives. Whether you're a seasoned reloader or just starting out, you should study the subject, watch reloading demonstrations and talk to experienced reloaders.

I wonder why almost all the major reload manuals separate the 45/70 into Trapdoor, lever action and strong action groups since (per some) anything above the 28,000 SAAMI established for the Trapdoor is unsafe in any firearm????????????. The do the same for the various strength 45 Colts. I guess their recommendation are no good since they recommend non-SAAMI loads for guns that are stronger than an original 1873 Colt peacemaker.

[longbow]

screwcutter:

From what I have read the 1895 was in fact designed for larger cartridges than .30-30. From American Rifleman:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...in-model-1895/

Albeit in .45-70 and .45-90 it was for BP loading but then so was the Winchester 1886 but both are strong actions and capable of handling higher pressures.

I don't disagree that Marlin and Winchester may say these guns are rated for 28,000 CUP as their lawyers likely wouldn't let then say anything else but when powder companies and reloading manuals list load data for these guns they do specify which gun is in which pressure category and list safe loads for them. If not safe their lawyers would not let them do that.

So, I have to think that the three common designations and pressure categories for .45-70 are safe and sane as far as to what the gun will handle. My opinion anyway.

I know my old 70's Marlin 1895 put up with top end Marlin pressure loads from my old Hornady reloading book of same era and I'll not that some load data in that book seemed somewhat hot and I do not see it repeated in my newer reloadng books. I would not even think of trying a Siamese Mauser/Ruger #1 pressure rated load in a Marlin but it certainly was fed a lot of top end Marlin pressure loads. Yes, I was dumb and put up with a lot unnecessary recoil.

All that matters for this thread though is the OP's question ~ "Just got a 45/70. Any recommendations for 2000fps?"

Yes, it is safe to load a 405 gr. boolit to 2000 FPS according to published reloading data.

For me the recoil is the limiting factor not the capability of the gun.

Longbow

[screwcutter]

I’m just trying to be a nice guy, everyone else warned about recoil. I was giving the nuts and bolts of the mechanical pit falls. I have loaded higher than SAMMI, but I did this before the internet thing. Pease read on to para 7 in the NRA article, the 1972 version of the 1895 was based on 336 family receiver. I bought my first 1895 to make a 45/90, afterwards I found out that it wasn’t the same as the original 1895. Don’t anyone get me wrong, I’m not slamming the Marlin 1895 because I have 2 of the 1972 versions and I love them.

[Tazman1602]

It goes back to not want one needs but what one wants. Sometimes need nas nothing to do with it.
Its hard for some people to understand that.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

DOH! No offense intended, I was just pokin' the bear! I have shot my Marlins to those speeds, it's just where I hunt it's pretty rare we get any shots over 200 yards and that is a stretch!

Art

[Echo]

Maybe a collar-button...

[Reverend Al]

I have one of the old Browning B78 / 1885 single shots in .45-70 and it shoots tight little clover leafs at 100 yards with 300 grain Hornady or Sierra JHP's with a lightly compressed case completely FULL of IMR3031. Pokes them out at about 2,000 fps and although they kill moose like the Hammer of Thor they are absolutely unpleasant to shoot too! When I was working up the load for this rifle the groups just kept getting smaller and smaller until I couldn't get any more powder into the case and seat the bullet just off the lands, I just flat ran out of room in the case. It just so happened that the most accurate load that it really liked was at the very top of the powder range and the excessive recoil it generates just came along for the ride ...

[Bigslug]

That fast, you'll prrroooooobably want a gas check.

I have never heard a discouraging word about the RCBS 405 FNGC, and it shoots wonderfully in everything I've fired it through. My pop worked up a load with it for his shorter barrel 1895 up around 1900 fps that holds roughly 1MOA.

If you are mainly after blunt force trauma and aren't sweating trajectory, the NOE has a couple options that take the meplat diameter to .34". We call them "root beer barrels", and at north of 1600 fps, they are the most destructive thing I've ever seen hit a gallon milk jug. The displacement from those hits is so forceful, it clears the loose sand from the ground to about a 1 foot radius from where the jug was standing.

YMMV, but 1600 fps seems to be where the round starts getting uncomfortable in a lot of guns, and it's worth remembering 1200-1400 fps was considered perfectly fine for bison.

[longbow]

screwcutter:

Right you are! My apologies. The "new" 1895 has a different beginning than the original 1895. I learned something new which is good! I should read my examples more thoroughly before posting and commenting.

Having said that after re-looking at info, I find the 336 action was chambered in 444 Marlin before being chambered in .45-70 (I knew that) and was found safe at 444 Marlin pressure of 42,000 PSI (SAAMI spec) and later in .450 Marlin at 43,500 PSI (SAAMI spec) so the Marlin .45-70 range of pressure at 40,000 PSI is perfectly safe and sane.

I'm not trying to be a smart alec or start an argument here, just pointing out that the same action is chambered in two other cartridges that develop as much or more pressure and bolt thrust as the "Marlin .45-70" range and in the case of .450 Marlin the cartridge has even larger diameter head than .45-70. These cartridges must have been tested and proofed in the action and of course the 444 has been in production since the mid 60's with no problems I've read about. If there was any question as to the safety of those two rounds with SAAMI spec pressure rating then Marlin's lawyers would not allow the guns to be sold. In fact, if there was the slightest possibility of failure using SAAMI spec ammunition the guns would be recalled.

My suspicion on these .45-70 blow ups we see are that either a double charge was thrown or the wrong powder was used. I've as yet to see a posted blow up of a 444 Marlin or .450 Marlin using any ammunition and specifically factory ammunition loaded to SAAMI spec. Seems odd that only .45-70's fail. Well, seems odd to me anyway but I'm a pretty simple old guy.

I'll reference 44MAG#!'s tag line here. I'm not trying to offend anyone or start an argument. The OP asked a pretty straight forward question about loads to produce 2000 FPS using a 405 gr. boolit and that seems quite doable within recommended pressure limits for a Marlin 1895, and certainly is within pressure limits for .450 Marlin in the same action so other than excess recoil, which may not bother the OP as much as it does me, he is not asking to do anything unsafe.

Longbow