How much can they take?

[Hamish]

OP is asking the wrong question.

"How long can I make my firearm last by shooting moderate loads that are enjoyable and will motivate me to shoot it more?"

[country gent]

I have to add this along the lines of what Hamish posted. How many rounds will the rifle be good for with trapdoor level loads ? And then How many rounds will it be good for at full bore pressure levels of almost double. Then what will the extra velocity gain you with the same weight bullets? he 9mm is a good example of this the standard saami 9mm level loadings and the gun last a long time. Some agencies have claimed gun life cut in half simply Going to the 9MM +P+ loadings as a steady diet. Another is the K frame smiths, a steady diet of light 38 wadcutters and the pistol will run fine forever. Buy one in 357 mag and a full diet of full house loads and life of the pistol is drastically diminished.

While not a overload, these loads are stout. There is the known factor of metal fatigue to consider in this. A piece or part subjected to set pressure levels will fail at a certain point from this. Upping pressure and the stress speeds the failure up. What I'm saying is it may not happen in 100rds or 400rds but what about 800rds or 1000rds of these hot loads? Metal fatigue is cumulative and builds up to the fail point with use.

In the 45-70 500 grn bullets ( most of fairly soft lead or paper patched) at roughly 1200 fps killed a lot of buffalos, elk and moose and other game back in the day. With the bullets not being recovered.

[M-Tecs]

Firearms are designed to withstand proof loads. Countries like England and Italy require that every firearm be fired with proof loads. A "Proof Load" is one that subjects the firearm to 150% of the SAAMI/ C.I.P maximum for the load. Even at 150% this pressure is not great enough to start metal fatigue since the Endurance Limit has not been exceeded. Once the Endurance Limit has been exceeded metal fatigue becomes a factor. The S&W K frame stretching and throat cracking are a good example of exceeding endurance limit.. The 9mm +P+ not so much. The reduced service life is mostly due to increased slide velocity.

http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_en..._in_metals.htm

"In general, steel alloys which are subjected to a cyclic stress level below the Endurance Limit (EL) (properly adjusted for the specifics of the application) will not fail in fatigue. That property is commonly known as "infinite life". Most steel alloys exhibit the infinite life property"

https://caeai.com/blog/how-calculate...istory-complex

https://www.asminternational.org/doc...d-d2050d37d534

Some very good discussion on the K Frames http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-rev...57-magnum.html

[crankycalico]

the thing is, the trapdoor load was a proven cartridge at long range. Seriously, it was designed to shoot a horse out from someone at what, 300 yards? Its still got better penetration at 1000 yards then the garret 44 magnum ammo does at 20 yards.

[Petander]

400 grains @ 2000 fps using Vihtavuori N130 or N133 has been safe and reasonable in my modern Marlin 1895's for twenty years. Many thousands of rounds, both hotter and milder. We also have CIP proof firing here for every firearm sold.

This doesn't mean that 2000 fps is safe with your powder or load or Marlin. But modern Marlins don't need to be limited to trapdoor pressures,unless one wants to. My moose load was a Speer 400 @ 2150 fps for many years, I then cut down to Hornady 350 at the same velocity. Now my new SBL takes recoil even better than my previous Marlin.


Everyone be safe out there. Things like Quick Load can be helpful, we all load differently,every firearm is different.

[Hickok]

Plain and simple for me, I can load up my Marlin 1895 to power levels that I can not stand to shoot!

The pain soon overcomes the joy of shooting!

[samari46]

As Bikerbeans said one of the weak points is where the receiver is drilled for the mag tube. If you look at just about any Marlin the top of the receiver just where the barrel screws is smaller also. All of my Marlins are in 30-30,except one which is a 444 Marlin. love them but do not subscribe to hot loads. And while not exactly recoil shy the 444 lets you know when you pull the trigger with even factory loads. Never did reloads for the 444. Only one gunshop in town and does not stock any handloading supplies. So that means ordering out. Next step up is my Ruger #1 in 45/70 and learned a long time ago hot loads like a 300 gr jhp @2000 fps can and does turn that little rifle into a bucking beast. Definitely not for me. The same 300gr jhp at 1600fps is nice and accurate. But then again different strokes for different folks. Happy New Year. Frank

[GregLaROCHE]

For those following this thread, this may be of interest. Apparently, 2000 ft/sec with a 400 gr. Boolit is not that knew of an idea. I’m starting to think the lever actions my really be able to take the pressure.

http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/Ameri...ithPumpkin.pdf

[Petander]

I found some hunting memories.

This is how a +2000 fps Speer 400 looks after passing through a moose, lung shot ,stopping at the hide on the other side. They still weigh 380 grains. Fired from 30-50 yds.

Moose never goes far.

Attachment 233153

[Speedo66]

For me the limiting factor is recoil, not pressure. I'm not ashamed to admit I'm a wuss when it comes to that, nothing to prove.

I had an original Trapdoor carbine and I wouldn't even finish a box at a time with commercial trapdoor loads off a bench. It's gone.

[Harter66]

I'm told they will take 40 kpsi in a steady diet .
That generally means anything on the shelf jacketed or lead .
For us it means gas check designs .

I took the NOE version of the 458132 , 535 Postell , at a raging 1100 fps at 4,000 ft MSL it shot 3" at 100 and nice round holes . At 50 , 100 ,& 150 the elevation numbers from the Strelok app matched within my shooting abilities and means of measures . By the app that load carries 1000 ft lbs past 350 yd , drop is measured in feet but eyeball hold over is an 18" circle to 200 yd starting with a 150 yd zero . That's 8" high at 100 and 8" low at 200 .

The 458193 at 1600 fps is ..........at least a R/R locomotive with plenty of steam left past 500 yd , 200 yd hold over shrinks to 8" with a 150 yd zero .
The catch is that you pay the fiddler at the butt end . At least with a 7# 18" 1895G or the 20" 1895 G SS you do , not brutally but it's pretty obvious that you've sent an oz of lead on it's way .

I ran into the same thing with a 350 in a 460 Smith/45 Raptor in a 6.5# rifle at about 1800 fps it just stopped being any fun at all .

As mentioned 10s of thousands of Bison have fallen to the TD loads mostly 405-535 gr loads just over super sonic and my testing would seem to show me that there's no flies on it as a subsonic either .

I think if you need a flat shooting 45 cal rifle then the answer is to step up to the 45-110-405 that gives up about 100 fps and 100# with 10" more barrel to the 458 WM with the same 405 JSP . See Lyman #47,48,49 or 50 for details . Of course you can just go straight to the 458 Lott or 460 Weatherby .

There are of course lever guns with longer actions like the 86 that will feed the properly seated 535 Postell bullet and it's ilk are available making other 405s with more nose and less case intrusion practical also .

I guess the question is why does everyone want to make a 458 out of a 45-70 . I get using the whole case and certainly more aerodynamic bullets . But why try to make an F250 run 24 hr at LeMans ?

I tried to get a NOE diminsional copy of the 300 TAC-X at about 425 gr but no takers so whatever works for you I guess .

[Ramjet-SS]

Man these loads used to attract me like a fly to honey. Not anymore they plain hurt. Heavy loads nowadays for me require a heavy rifle to take up some of that recoil. My 450 Marlin Ina Winchester TD is about all I can enjoy with full house 300 grain loads. I like heavy at moderate velocity or lower that's fun.

[Petander]

I also enjoy 325 grainers a lot these days.

I remember these Marlin 1895 strength discussions from years back, around 2005 or so Vihtavuori updated their 45-70 load data. I even wrote somewhere, maybe here, that "my idiot loads just became reasonable overnight".

I tend to think that we are reloading for certain action strength,not cartridge. 444,450,45-70 Marlins in this case. But the old 45-70 pressure data/ liability issues are going strong. I don't want any of my reloads ever meet an antique 45-70.

Everybody stay safe.

[Drm50]

I have a early Marlin 1895 from 70s. The only reason I kept it was its accuracy. I have several original levers from late 1800- early 1900 and they all have wood flush with actions. I didn't like the
extra wood on the newer Marlins. I remove a lot of wood from the stock & forend. You can't tell where wood and metal join. I would say I removed 25% of the stock, this reduced the area of butt
plate considerably. For years I shot gun with 330gr cast HPs and only used it for target and a few
varmits. Loaded to 1200fps, it wasn't bad if you weren't on bench. A few years ago Ohio got limited
rifle deer season and the 1895 was only legal caliber rifle I owned. I loaded up a box of 400gr Barnes
at 1600fps with IMR-3031 and rifle was unpleasant to shoot. I'm now with 300gr Hornady JHP at close to 2000fps and it's not nearly as bad. If I had it to do over again I would have left shotgun butt
alone. The 25% of butt plate removed translates into more felt recoil.

[FergusonTO35]

OP is asking the wrong question.

"How long can I make my firearm last by shooting moderate loads that are enjoyable and will motivate me to shoot it more?"

Exactly! If you need real magnum rifle power, you can buy a Weatherby Vanguard .375 H&H for about the same price as a Remlin 1895. Use the right tool for the job,and you will always have good results!

[Tom W.]

Limbsavers work wonders.......

[Texas by God]

Limbsavers work wonders.......

Amen. I won't bench test any rifle bigger than 30-30 without a slip on unless it has a good pad already. My new right shoulder cost a lot. About $30 for the Limbsaver.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[RED BEAR]

i don't understand why people can't be happy with what they have. if you need more power buy a bigger gun. i do hand load for the 444 and shoot a lot of 240 and 250 grain bullets i will load some 310 grain bullets but my old shoulder just can't take muck punishment anymore. my brother has a 45/70 marlin but he will not shoot my 444. i don't see much difference although he only shoots factory ammo and most 45/70 ammo is loaded to trap door levels.

[M-Tecs]

I am very happy with what I have. I have a bunch of calibers I can load from very mild to wild SAFELY. What I can't understand are people that THINK they know what my needs or wants are. I don't understand why some are so intolerant of differing view points???????????

[Winger Ed.]

Lots of folks go through the stage of how hot can you make a given cal. by starting with a max . load and work up.
Most of us out grow or survive it. When I read these postings, or get seduced by the Dark Side and be tempted to do it myself:
I remember someone advising, "If you want .300 WinMag performance, buy one. Don't try and make your own out of a .308".