Rossi 92 rechambering?

[vzerone]

Just so you know it recoil in a light 92 with a full house 454 is noticeable!! LOL

[Speedo66]

Word is that the Rossi .454 has different heat treating and a .45 model is not the same. Go to www.rossi-rifleman.com for everything you ever wanted to know about Rossi's.

[vzerone]

Word is that the Rossi .454 has different heat treating and a .45 model is not the same. Go to www.rossi-rifleman.com for everything you ever wanted to know about Rossi's.

That's what I suspected all along.

[pirkfan]

My understanding is that there are differences in the tubular magazine on the 454 vs 45 colt (threaded into the receiver vs an extension of the magazine plug screw holding the magazine in place, and has a removable inner magazine tube in addition to the receiver loading gate.) Even with the 45 colt carbines there have been issues with recoil causing the magazine to jump the magazine plug screw which acts as a retainer pin at the end of the barrel and sliding out of the fore grip. This could be a significant problem with a 454 conversion. The 454 buttstock also has a recoil pad unlike the 45 colt, and for good reason. I don't own a 454 casull Rossi, but do own a Ruger super redhawk 454, and can tell you that the difference in recoil between even hot 45 colt loads and 454 casull loads is significant, very significant in that handgun.

[The Lord Flashheart]

For your purposes you need to be able to use factory 454 ammo to make the hunting power factor and cowboy level 45 colt factory at the gun club. So yes, you need the re-chamber to 454. You will need to cut back the cartridge-stopping bump on the lifter to accommodate the longer 454 rounds (which may or may not result in 45 colt not feeding great). And be aware that Rossi now (after the first rifles failed) threads the magazine tube into the receiver because the recoil of the 454 will eventually cause the regular-style magazine tube to come dis-attached. So maybe don't use a whole bunch of 454 level loads?

You have it exactly right, thank you for the information. We can't even get spares over here for Rossis and so the chances of ordering a 454 lifter are slim to non-existant.

I will let the gunsmith know about the magazine issue but in the meanwhile would be extremely grateful if anyone has a photograph or drawing of the two lifters for comparison purposes?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Word is that the Rossi .454 has different heat treating and a .45 model is not the same. Go to www.rossi-rifleman.com for everything you ever wanted to know about Rossi's.

I searched that forum but couldn't find a reference to the heat treatment, it sounds unlikely that a production line facility like Braztech would go to the trouble but it is possible.

Is there an reference to this?

[Speedo66]

Here is an excerpt I pulled from an old thread here on Castboolits.

"When the Puma .454 arrived, the first thing I did was to call Glen Ruh at Legacy Sports International to ask him how Rossi had been able to adapt the 1892 design to the hot Casull cartridge. Ruh explained that the metallurgy and heat treatment had been modified to handle the high pressure and that the carbine had been thoroughly torture tested by H.P. White Laboratories using standard factory ammunition."

There's also an article on Gunblast Magazine where Paco Kelly says he heard the .454 had different heat treating, but that he didn't believe it.

Who really knows except Rossi themselves? Maybe if you got the right customer service rep on the phone they could tell you for sure.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Here is an excerpt I pulled from an old thread here on Castboolits.

"When the Puma .454 arrived, the first thing I did was to call Glen Ruh at Legacy Sports International to ask him how Rossi had been able to adapt the 1892 design to the hot Casull cartridge. Ruh explained that the metallurgy and heat treatment had been modified to handle the high pressure and that the carbine had been thoroughly torture tested by H.P. White Laboratories using standard factory ammunition."

There's also an article on Gunblast Magazine where Paco Kelly says he heard the .454 had different heat treating, but that he didn't believe it.

Who really knows except Rossi themselves? Maybe if you got the right customer service rep on the phone they could tell you for sure.

I saw that but thought it would make more sense to do that for all 92 rather than pull a few off the production line and re-heat treat them especially.

Calling Rossi sounds like a labour in vain, especially this side of the pond.

Have any of you guys tried?

[denul]

Winchester made their model 94 in 45 Colt which handles very heavy 45 Colt loads easily, and with an action already designed to take longer and higher pressure Factory cartridges, the conversion to 454 Casull would probably be much easier, perhaps as simple as reaming the chamber. I'm guessing that all of these caliber converting options are more easily achieved than starting your own club with cartridge limitations designed to meet the needs of hunters.

[pietro]

Is it reasonable to assume that the guns themselves won't be any different save for the chambering?

Sorry, but no, it's not.

The .454 operating pressures are much higher and the cases longer than those of the .45 Colt.

For that reason, Rossi takes extra measures with their Model 92's chambered for the .454 Casull.

To wit:

The receivers are especially hardened to handle the .454's higher pressures over time - also know as: you may be able to re-chamber a .45 Colt to .454, and actually shoot it, but you'll never know when the time suddenly comes when the standard receiver can no longer tolerate the higher pressure to your detriment.

AFAIK, the .45 Colt cartridge lifter would have to be either altered to handle the longer .454, or replaced with a .454 lifter.

The magazine tube of .454 Model 92's are threaded into the front face of the receiver, ILO simply held in place with a few crosspins - which translates to the fact that a non-threaded/standard .45 magazine tube will shortly work it's way forward under recoil, thereby turning the lever-action repeater into a jam-o-matic single shot.

FYI, a standard .45 Colt Model 92 is suitable for both your purposes, supposing that high-performance .45 Colt loads (like Cor-Bon or Buffalo Bore) are used for hunting; and lower-performance "Cowboy" loads are used for target shooting.

.

[RPRNY]

A 454 Casull case is 1/10" longer than a 45 LC case, not because the extra 1/10" case capacity allows loads that deliver velocities like 250 grs at 2200 ft per second in a 20" rifle, but to stop people chambering such loads in a firearm designed for the 45LC.

SAAMI Max Pressure for the 454 Casull is 65,000 psi. Do not lengthen the chamber on a Rossi in 45 LC and fire 454 Casull loads in it. You and the rifle will be injured.

There are those who will tell you that because the R92 is also chambered in 44Mag with a SAAMI max pressure of 36,000 psi, you can safely shoot 45 LC loads labelled in manuals as " Ruger and Freedom Arms Only" loads. I am not telling you that. But if you were to look at such loads using H110 (or its available UK equivalent) and were to find a load delivering less than 36,000 psi that met the 1700 ft/lbs muzzle minimum for deer (an absurd requirement unless stalking in Scotland) and were to only use such loads for hunting, then there are those who would say you were not running any undue risk

But I don't know that we have achieved anything. An R92 in 45LC will not, under CIP specs, meet your deer minimums and a 454 Casull will exceed your range maximums.

What about the 444 Marlin? Straight walled case, takes .429 " bullets. Delivers plenty of killing power and can be loaded down to range levels. Would it pass muster with the authorities? Pedersoli offer a couple of different models of the 1886 Win in 444 Marlin.

What about black powder loads? Winchester or Browning have done several runs of 1886 lever guns chambered in 40-65 and so has Pedersoli, so possibly available in the UK. Loaded with Black Powder or smokeless and 260 grs + lead bullets gets you the requisite 1700 ft/lbs at the muzzle, but loaded down with BP, filler (cornmeal) or wads, or a load of pistol powder like Unique, and a light bullet, gets you under your range max. Worth a thought.

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't feel confident with a Win. 94 operating at 65000psi, even an "AE" or Big Bore.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Thanks for the further replies, certainly enough to give pause for thought.

Sadly no downloaded rifle rounds like the .444 as the range won't allow them.

The idea behind the casual bit is to satisfy the legislative requirement for x ftlbs from a factory cartridge, there is no need to necessarily load it to the 65k psi level on my part.

[RPRNY]

Thanks for the further replies, certainly enough to give pause for thought.

Sadly no downloaded rifle rounds like the .444 as the range won't allow them.

The idea behind the casual bit is to satisfy the legislative requirement for x ftlbs from a factory cartridge, there is no need to necessarily load it to the 65k psi level on my part.

But what I don't grasp is how you meet the requirements for range and hunting use. If you apply for a license for the 45 Casull chambered Rossi, then they will grant you a license for hunting use but deny it for range use. If you were to apply for a license for an R92 chambered in 45LC, they would deny you hunting use. I don't understand how you propose to get around this. If you are granted a range use license for an R92 chambered in 45 LC, and then lengthen the chamber by 1/10" would you not then have to reapply for a hunting use license, at which time presumably they would pull your range use license?

[The Lord Flashheart]

On the basis that the rifle is actually chambered for both the 45 colt and the 454 Casull, in much the same way as our we apply for 38 Spec./357 magnum or .44Spec/.44 magnum for the respective lever action rifles otherwise we would not be able to buy the type of ammo not specified if we went for one or the other.

It's a real pain in the ****, not to put too find a point on it... :/

Thank god for the second amendment chaps, or this ******** would be familiar...

[RPRNY]

Got it, thanks. Yes, rather a bother. Best of luck.

[pietro]

On the basis that the rifle is actually chambered for both the 45 colt and the 454 Casull, in much the same way as our we apply for 38 Spec./357 magnum or .44Spec/.44 magnum for the respective lever action rifles otherwise we would not be able to buy the type of ammo not specified if we went for one or the other.

It's a real pain in the ****, not to put too find a point on it... :/

Thank god for the second amendment chaps, or this ******** would be familiar...

I cannot imagine the Cor-Bon high-performance (+P) .45 Colt factory ammo (1300fps/1126fpe) not fulfilling the hunting portion of your laws, and factory Cowboy ammo (706fps/220fpe) meeting the target requirements - all in the same .45 Colt chambered rifle.

https://shopcorbon.com/Handgun-Calib...HT45C300JSP-20

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/57...nose-box-of-50


.

[ulav8r]

Rossi hasn't passed on the information to anyone that has passed it on to the public, but it is a possibility that they use a more expensive alloy for the 454 that gives more strength than the metal used for 45's and 44's. Since they make more rifles in all other calibers than in 454 it is easy to believe their bean counters make them use the better alloy only for the 454's.

[seetrout]

What am I missing here?
If your "gun seller" sells Rossi in .45colt, .44mag etc he has to order them from somewhere.
Why can't he order you one in .454?!?

[BigEyeBob]

My understanding is that there are differences in the tubular magazine on the 454 vs 45 colt (threaded into the receiver vs an extension of the magazine plug screw holding the magazine in place, and has a removable inner magazine tube in addition to the receiver loading gate.) Even with the 45 colt carbines there have been issues with recoil causing the magazine to jump the magazine plug screw which acts as a retainer pin at the end of the barrel and sliding out of the fore grip. This could be a significant problem with a 454 conversion. The 454 buttstock also has a recoil pad unlike the 45 colt, and for good reason. I don't own a 454 casull Rossi, but do own a Ruger super redhawk 454, and can tell you that the difference in recoil between even hot 45 colt loads and 454 casull loads is significant, very significant in that handgun.

Had the same magazine problem with my Rossi 92 in 357 with very stout loads . I fixed the issue by machining a larger screw and retapping the magazine plug to suit , and drilling the locating hole deeper . I was able to achieve this because of the thick walled octagonal barrel.