Worst cast bullet performance EVER!

[TDB9901]

For what it is worth, a year ago I would have shrugged tome boy's powder coating comment off, and went on... I now believe he may have a point.
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I was having accuracy problems with that boolit, and after long resistance to the idea, decided to give powder coating a try. Picked up some Harbor Freight red powder, coated them, and they shoot remarkably better. In .38 and 9mm. You wouldn't believe it was the same boolit.

I believe they may have been a bit under sized at around .357, but after coating they run around .359 and it has made a world of difference for me.

[tomme boy]

This design is Lee's worst mold they make. Look back through the history of this site and you will see all kinds of info on this TL design and the 9mm not working. But the regular lube grove one is one of the best molds Lee has. It is not really the diameter that is the problem. It is the lack of bearing surface. If you powder coat it it fills in the little groves and does not let the bullet skip or strip or whatever you want to call it.

[DougGuy]

This design is Lee's worst mold they make. Look back through the history of this site and you will see all kinds of info on this TL design and the 9mm not working. But the regular lube grove one is one of the best molds Lee has. It is not really the diameter that is the problem. It is the lack of bearing surface. If you powder coat it it fills in the little groves and does not let the bullet skip or strip or whatever you want to call it.

This makes total sense. Likely why the conventional lube groove version works well but the TL version don't.

[bigolsmokebomb]

You need to slug your barrel to see exactly what the diameter is. I can't shoot .356 in my my glock because the barrel slugs at .356. You need to be oversized by at least 2thou over barrel slug diameter. When I first started I sized to .356 and had keyholing just like that. went up to .358 and ill shoot 10rds in almost the same hole at 15yds

[Tackleberry41]

OP problem you will find with the Lee molds is inconsistency. You say one works fine the other doesn't. One may be casting properly, the other doesn't, but you don't know without sizing.

And the tumble lube mold just does not have a whole lot of bearing surface. It really only has that narrow front band and narrow rear one. Bearing surface makes big difference. I tried the 158gr .360 NOE mold I had bought. With the hollow point pins its 145gr. Most of the heavy 9mm, 147gr, have a beveled base as a square base tends to flare the case seated that deep. So I left off the gas check, the idea it would give it a bit of a bevel and not flare the case. They keyholed. Just wasn't enough bearing surface to grip the rifling. It works fine with the gas check, giving it that extra bit to grab with.

The 4 TL molds I have, 124gr 9mm, 158gr 357, and 2 45. Out of the box, none of them sized where they had much more than a ribbon of bearing surface. The 9mm was all over the place. After leementing them, they size with a good solid front and rear band. Powder coated they work great. But the PC does fill in the gaps giving more bearing surface.

[RMII]

I too have had this very same issue to the point of giving up on cast for my 9's. This includes the Lee 124 TC the OP refers to and a few others. I'll give the .38 expander trick a try and see what happens.

In addition, I'll try the other suggestions such as plugging the barrel, pulling some loads and checking for swagging.

I'll report back when I can get this done.

[wbrco]

I was going to post about my experience in leementing the tl rn version. My calipers tell me I've got .359 across the mold, but the crease is still down around .355 I think I need to add some more tape on the opposite side of the mold.

[MT Chambers]

I believe that your bullets are too small, I hope you are not using a "factory crimp die", either way I'd get a diff. mold that casts all bullets the same size. The FCD can size bullets down a lot when they are already in the case.

[Elkins45]

Bullets are mostly .3585, one cavity is .3575 and one is .360. Lee...sigh.

The bore of this particular gun is .357

[Phlier]

Bullets are mostly .3585, one cavity is .3575 and one is .360. Lee...sigh.

The bore of this particular gun is .357

Run 'em through a Lee push through .358 sizing die, tumble lube them, and enjoy.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

That is reasonable, but it doesn't explain why the RN version shoots reasonably well. I will water drop some as an experiment and give those a try.

If everything else is the same it is likely that the RN mold drops larger boolits than the TC mold, and as such is sized down less by the case and grips the rifling better

[bouncer50]

This design is Lee's worst mold they make. Look back through the history of this site and you will see all kinds of info on this TL design and the 9mm not working. But the regular lube grove one is one of the best molds Lee has. It is not really the diameter that is the problem. It is the lack of bearing surface. If you powder coat it it fills in the little groves and does not let the bullet skip or strip or whatever you want to call it.

I agree with you. I am old school on bullet molds. If only 50 percent say that TL mold design are bad. With my luck i would be the one of the 50 percent. I will stick with the old proven design that more say their good. The old Lyman 356402 been around at least 50 years is a proven design. I also use the older design Lee 125 and had good luck. If someone can say that TL bullets are better i will like them to tell me why.

[Elkins45]

This is the first TL bullet I've tried that has been truly terrible. I've shot a lead mine of the 45-200TL over the years, and I've even had good luck with the 240 TL in 44 magnum as long as I cast them hard.

If someone can say that TL bullets are better i will like them to tell me why.

Because when they work they are much less effort than conventional bullets. There has to be a reason Ranch Dog used them in his designs.

[Texas by God]

I tried those in a Ruger P89 and got horrible accuracy and SLIVERS of lead in the barrel. I've used TL moulds in .314",410"&.429 with great sucess. For the price of Czech and Serbian and Blazer 9mm ammo I see no need to cast for it- sorry. Best, Thomas.

[GooseGestapo]

A lot of good info here on the Lee TL molds.

I found also many years ago that adding tin to my w/w metal really helped accuracy with the TL molds in 9 and 10mm. It's primarily the thin base driving band that causes the problem. Notice how well a properly sized and gaschecked RanchDog style molds shoot through many rifles at better than 2,000fps.

I now powder coat all my 9mm bullets and size to .357" as I mostly shoot S&W's and a Taurus. The Taurus actually prefers a .358", but shoots almost as well at .357". The S&W's may fail to chamber with some rounds with .358" bullets. The 105gr SWC is a standout, and saves $$$ lead vs. a heavier boolit.

fwiw; I have a RD .338" 200RF 6-cav mold. It shoots HORRIBLY from my 2 .338 ME, and poorly from a MkX Mauser w/custom .338/06 bbl. (mold casts undersized) Powder Coat and gc'd, sized to .339" shoots accurately up to ~1,800fps. 1,950fps = keyholes!!! Lee .338" 220gr RN sized .339" is accurate to 2,100+.

[Elkins45]

Learned two new things at the range today: (1) Switching guns doesn't help and (2) Dropping the powder charge significantly didn't help either.

Next experiment: same alloy, water dropped.

[C. Latch]

Same here. The only 9mm mold that works for me is the 125 RN. it just barely makes .358. Ny other 9mm molds pattern at 50'.

Best success comes from the LEE 125 RF. Sized at .358. Work up loads CAREFULLY! It seats deeper into the case raising pressures.

SHiloh

Quoted to emphasize the part in bold. That's the only 9mm mold I own. Only one I need.

[tomme boy]

Just because you water drop them it might not help until they age for awhile. I don't shoot mine for months even years after they were cast. Your best bet is to find some lino or mono or powdercoat. Or just get another mold.

Have you tried to use a 38 S&W expander? It takes the tapor out of the case and the bullet seats very easy. This may be your biggest help. That was why everyone has asked about pulling a bullet and checking the diameter. This is what it took for my CZ to start shooting outstanding.

The other thing you need to try is to not size them at all. Lube them and let them dry. Then lube them again after a couple days.

[Elkins45]

It's the same expender that works with the other TL bullet, so unless this bullet just has weaker grooves it's not the problem. I'm willing to change it but I prefer to try other stuff before I turn a custom expander just for this bullet.

I didn't size them. I generally avoid sizing TL bullets unless I have to, and I'm not sure making them smaller would help anything.

[44man]

I have to go with fit and skid also. The boolit should shoot. It is why I caught and examined a few thousand boolits. It is OK for a little skid at the front of the boolit but it MUST stop at the base band. PB with high pressures must be HARD!
I shoot many TL boolits at max, only thing I do different is to use a good lube like Felix and cast hard. I do not fear a TL design.
I once was shooting the RCBS Keith style from my .44 SBH with 231 and Unique for can shooting fun, real sad so I experimented with alloys from soft, working up in BHN. I seen improvement every step and when I got to 28-30 BHN, it fell into place with amazing 50 yard groups. Recovered soft boolits were slumped into a blob not anything like I cast.
It is the old saying, definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over expecting things to change.
Small cases like the nine are tough and if you get into the taper with the base, it will size the boolit and once the base is smaller you will not seal or take rifling.
Forget leading in all it's forms, it is no indication of accuracy at all unless it gets thicker. Then it is like skid, no grooves left.