45-70 in an 1886

[sh00ter787]

I have just put some money down on a Chiappa 1886 (26" oct barrel) hopefully it will arrive from Italy in a couple of weeks.
The 45-70 is a new cartridge for me to load. I have been looking on the forums and have a base idea of how to load it, the powders I have to use are: Unique, 2400, 5744.
The bullet is the Lee 405gn (cheap and cheerful until I have the rifle to slug bore etc),
I am looking to put these down range as close to original velocity as I can safely, once I have a good couple of loads I will then move onto black powder loadings.

With an 1886, what max pressure would I be safely looking at? I see "Ruger" loads in some manuals but my understanding is the 1886 is a strong action....
Also
What are your pet loads for the 45-70?
Lastly, I have seen 4198 come up a lot, worth getting a tub to try or similar to 5744?

Regards

[NSB]

First, DO NOT LOAD THIS GUN UP TO RUGER LOADS. I don't know where you got the info that they were as strong as the Rugers, but they are not. They fall into the middle range of pressure....between Trapdoors and the Rugers. Second, if you're trying to load them up to the original velocity, you're looking at around 1150-1300 fps. Any load in those velocity ranges will be very safe pressure wise. Those are not anywhere near max. loads. I load all of my 45-70s to those ranges and they are easy on my end and devastating on the other end. The 45-70 is the least fussy cartridge I've ever loaded for. Just about everything I've tried shot very, very well as long as the bullet was the correct diameter. You need to slug the bore to find that out. I've had outstanding accuracy with Reloader7, 4198, 5744, 2400, and the no longer produced 4759. I guess I'm the only one on the planet who got less than spectaculer results with 3031. I just quit trying with that powder since everything else worked so well. With my Winchester/Miroku 1886 I was able to get five shots inside 1.75" at a measured 114 yards on a consistent basis shooting off sand bags. Sometimes the groups were much better and rarely ever worse than that. Good luck and have fun with your new gun.

[hpbear101]

Congrats on the 1886! I reload 45-70 for a couple of old original 86's, Trapdoors, and Marlin. As NSB said they are easy to load for. I would recommend the Lyman reloading manual it has three sections Trapdoor, 1886 and Marlin, and Ruger #1. I load all my ammo using the lower pressure loads as I don't want anything getting mixed in with the Trapdoor that would cause a problem. If your 1886 has the crescent steel but plate as mine do it isn't much fun shooting the hotter stuff anyway. After you slug your bore it is time to pick your bullets. I load all cast bullets, for smokeless loads I buy the Laser-cast bullets, for black powder I cast several different bullets. My rifles aren't very finicky about which bullet I use, they like the Lee 405 Hollow-base just as much as the Lyman 420 and Gould 330. All three powders you mentioned will be good, I use mostly 2400 as it works well and I have a bunch of it, I also use 3031 and typically get my best results with it. The only concern I have with the 2400 is it would be very easy to double charge a case other than that it works great. I hope you do a follow-up report to us on how you like the Chiappa as I know several people that are contemplating a 1886 purchase. Enjoy! Tom

[thegatman]

I find very good luck with Trailboss and Unique. 45/70 is the best.

[Baja_Traveler]

I also use TrailBoss - 14.5 grains under that bullet makes for a very mild recoil round, yet with enough oomph to reliably drop the 200 yard ram on the silhouette range.

[TCLouis]

I stick to Trapdoor loads as they give velocity I need and could go more if need be.

10.5 grains of Unique behind the Lee 340 rumbles along right at 1100 fps and is very accurate in my gun.

If you want more velocity I have no idea of a good loading.

[osteodoc08]

As noted there are 3 levels of loading:

1. Trapdoor (original loading)
2. 1886 loadings
3. Ruger #1/3 loadings

As mentioned DO NOT LOAD RUGER LOADS. These nip at the heels of 458 Win Mag loads and are not suitable for 1886 level loadings.

You should be able to find plenty of data for your powders. Some have favorites. Mine has been RL#7, but have also had success with XBR 8208 and Varget as well for the serious stuff and have used TrailBoss and 2400 successfully for lower level stuff.

Search and read. Don't be surprised if your rifle has a short throat as most new productions seem to have. My Brownings have no throat at all to speak of.

If you want some really fun plinking. Look into the NOE collar button mold.

[NSB]

Don't be surprised if your rifle has a short throat as most new productions seem to have. My Brownings have no throat at all to speak of.

True. All three of my Winchester/Browning/Miroku guns are like this. Don't let this discourage you though. I had them reamed out to lengthen the throat and accuracy wasn't affected at all. They now chamber all bullets regardless of ogive or weight and shoot lights out besides. It's about a hundred bucks to get someone to do this and isn't all the difficult. I had Turnbull do mine while they had them for case coloring.

[smokeywolf]

My best results have been with Unique, 4198 or 3031.

Don't stray above group II loads.

[sh00ter787]

Thanks for your input, I had a hunch it would be along those lines with regards to the pressures, good info to know

Great replies, I really do appreciate your time, I'm glad it appears to be a forgiving cartridge. I have been loading a lot of 44-40 in the last 6 months and although I think it is a fantastic round it has a small amount of options. The 45-70 with a vast array of bullet weights etc seems like its going to more fun to develop!

That NOE button one looks to be the flattest shooting 45-70 boolit I've seen!

Fingers crossed now on the bore size and throat

[Wayne Smith]

Guys, he's in England. I'm not sure it would be as easy to have someone throat it there as it is here.

[NSB]

IIRC England went through the Industrial Age before the United States did. They also make guns in England and have machinists there. I'm thinking it may not be as difficult as you think it would be to get it reamed.

[SSGOldfart]

Can you get black powder? You might be surprised how well it works in the 45-70!
A good fun load for a day at the range is a reduced load

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have just put some money down on a Chiappa 1886 (26" oct barrel) hopefully it will arrive from Italy in a couple of weeks.
The 45-70 is a new cartridge for me to load. I have been looking on the forums and have a base idea of how to load it, the powders I have to use are: Unique, 2400, 5744.
The bullet is the Lee 405gn (cheap and cheerful until I have the rifle to slug bore etc),
I am looking to put these down range as close to original velocity as I can safely, once I have a good couple of loads I will then move onto black powder loadings.

With an 1886, what max pressure would I be safely looking at? I see "Ruger" loads in some manuals but my understanding is the 1886 is a strong action....
Also
What are your pet loads for the 45-70?
Lastly, I have seen 4198 come up a lot, worth getting a tub to try or similar to 5744?

Regards

Yes, the .45-70 is an excellent cartridge, and one of the easiest to load well. It is indeed a strong action, suitable for about anything that was considered a reputable .45-70 load before the Ruger.I always wonder if loading so heavily for the Ruger was that company's own idea. They had the action already, designed for higher pressure modern cartridges. But turning it into an imitation .458 Winchester fills few needs that what was previously considered a full power .45-70 doesn't.

There is a book you would find useful, "The Winchester Lever Legacy" by Clyde Williamson. It is extremely large, out of print and expensive on www.bookfinder.com , but well worth the price. Do not let its folksy style fool you, for it is an exhaustively detailed loading and testing manual on the lever Winchesters which followed the 73, and their cartridges. He makes the point that Winchester themselves had a briefly marketed series of high velocity smokeless cartridges for the 1886 which closely duplicated his own results. I doubt if they were discontinued because of any doubts about safety. More likely it was to make more people buy the 1894.

He used 3031 a lot, his best group, at 1⅞in. and 1814ft./sec., being with 53gr. and the Remington 405gr. jacketed bullet. His cast-bullet groups weren't as accurate, but he was using a 19th century rifle, and you will have a new bore. A 398gr. bullet and 30gr of 2400 gave 1653ft./sec., and 490gr. with 34gr. of 4198 gave 1510. You could do very well with less, and some sort of protected bullet base becomes advisable from about 1400. While gas checks can be used, I would try a punched-out disc of wax made by melting it in hot water and allowing it to set as a surface layer. A thick and close-fitting card wad between wax and bullet reduces the chance of momentary adhesion as it leaves the muzzle.

My 1886 is an original .40-82 from the second year of production, and still delivers usable though unimpressive accuracy from a worn bore which has probably been frosted at one time, but not pitted. I mostly used Reloder 7 and cast bullets. The "70-length" cartridges are at no disadvantage to the "90-length" ones (i.e. as long as the .45-90) when smokeless is used, and you have the use of cases which are about the most likely to stay available and cheap, or nearly cheap, on the British market.

The 90-length cartridges in particular practically demand exactly what kind of bullet they need, since the bolt travel and cartridge lifter of the 1886 severely limit the bullet protrusion you can have, and produce a very troublesome kind of jam if you get it wrong. The shorter .45-70 case does offer the possibility of using a longer and better shaped bullet, but it is possible that you would need a modified or replacement cartridge lifter to do it. I don't know if Chiappa do a 90-length rifle, or if their lifter is interchangeable with the original or other reproduction parts.

The UK is a small and crowded island where shotguns greatly outnumber high-powered rifles, and in Scotland there is a required velocity limit for deer which about eliminates the use of the .45-70. (I drew up computer internal ballistics tables once which convinced the licensing authority about light revolver bullets in the .40-82, but it might have been different if they had been in a different mood.) The large red deer are mostly hunted on extremely open ground, too, so users of the .45-70 on game are a minority of a minority. Even pistol-cartridge .45s have a slightly different land diameter, so you might indeed find nobody with a piloted throat reamer which you could depend on to do a really good job. Mail order sales of guns direct to the customer are illegal, and I don't know whether one sent away for work to be done would have to come back through a local registered dealer, who would probably charge you for carrying it from his mailbox to the counter. I am sure rethroating a rifle shouldn't invalidate the proof of a firearm, which is mandatory for the trade though not for private ownership and use. But you might find a dealer feared this uncharted territory.

I don't believe I would feel the need of this job but if I did I would buy a throater reamer from someone like www.mansonreamers.com , for $40 or $55 respectively. Even with postage and import taxes it should be less than the $100 mentioned above, an you have the reamer.

[NSB]

England's still in the EU...for the moment. There are other sources of reamers in Europe at this time. It's very possible a good gunsmith over there somewhere in the EU might have a reamer. Pedersoli makes a ton of lever guns in this caliber and many single shots as well. I'm betting that getting a reamer could be done there. If not, as mentioned above, it can be rented and shipped from the U.S. Shipping and customs wouldn't prevent this, it's not a gun part...just a tool.

[sh00ter787]

Thanks again, Ballistics - very interesting about using a wax wad as a pseudo check, I have never heard of that before, will certainly file that away for future use

I will just see how it goes with the throat, no need worrying about something that "might" be an issue - but yes, I will if needed just buy the reamer and do myself. With regards to getting things from the US, some things are easy (such as tools) others just take a little more care, most firms just don't want the hassle so it is just a case of keep looking and speaking to people until you find the right combination. if not then you go to Brownells lol!

SSGOldfart - yes, we have black powder, this is something that I will do. I tend to use Swiss powder in cartridge loading with good results and save the standard stuff for shotgun loads. As my range time is fairly limited due to work I will concentrate on smokeless loads first then onto the fun stuff

[runfiverun]

I run 2400 in my 86.
they are known for a short throat but you can work around it a bit.
I'm using an old LEE 435gr gas check mold that does well in mine on top of 22grs of 2400.
I have walked it up to 24grs and have used a filler [Dacron] with both loads

[sh00ter787]

I run 2400 in my 86.
they are known for a short throat but you can work around it a bit.
I'm using an old LEE 435gr gas check mold that does well in mine on top of 22grs of 2400.
I have walked it up to 24grs and have used a filler [Dacron] with both loads

That was the range I was looking to start with for 2400 (22-24gn) do you feel the filler is needed or just for peace of mind?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That was the range I was looking to start with for 2400 (22-24gn) do you feel the filler is needed or just for peace of mind?

You will find people on these boards saying that such a part-filled case, or the use of a light filler, should deprive you of your peace of mind, as it is a source of dangerous pressure waves. I think this is true but involves small charges of slow-burning, hard to ignite powders. Charges of powder like 2400 are such common practice that I am convinced it is safe.

The worst I think is likely is some inconsistency of burning according to how the powder is lying at the time of the shot. You are unlikely to be shooting a .45-70 rifle straight up or straight down, but even in the horizontal it might vary according to how you ease the lever gently or slam the cartridge home. So I think there is some value in a filler.

These come in two groups. Some have bulk of their own, and affect the loading density. Others, which would be my preference, are so light they do nothing but position the powder, and collapse immediately. Cigarette filter tips contain precisely measured quantities of what appears to be a vegetable fibre with the fibres longitudinally oriented, and very likely kapok, which is the most ethereal of all, since every fibre is a hollow tube. I've used a couple of those, with the paper wrapper slit after insertion, using a narrow blade. It exits the muzzle in shorter, slightly charred but unmelted fibres.

[NSB]

2400 is one of my favorite powders in the 45-70. I have loaded cases with, and without fillers and have never been able to detect any advantage from using them in a direct side-by-side comparison. I think the use of fillers with smokeless powders is over rated in its ability to do much, if anything to improve accuracy or safety. I'm sure there are some powders that might benefit from the use of fillers (if used properly, and that's another subject matter hotly debated). Some powders are a bit more position sensitive than others, but 2400 doesn't seem to be one of them.