caseless 22 ammo

[sandman228]

my neighbors dad passed away a while back ,his sons have been slowly cleaning out his house since he passed . every time they find something gun related they bring it to me I guess he had guns , ammo ,and loaded mags stashed throughout the house mostly 22 .they brought me something a week or 2 ago ive never seen or heard of a small black box that says caseless ammo 22 cal 100 rounds . what can I do with this stuff ? how does it fire ? is it safe to fire ? I'm totally clueless .

[sandman228]

[seppos]

You mean the Daisy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_V/L


S

[DanishM1Garand]

It was for a Daisy rifle. It essentially diesels the round with hot air. The Daisy company made these for a time then ATF stepped in and said they were firearms. He may have the rifle too.

[sandman228]

ok thanks for the info . I remember daisy 22 rifles I never knew they took special ammo though . as far as having the rifle who knows . I think there parents were hoarders .

[roysha]

I have one of those VL rifles and around 900 rounds of ammo. The round approximates 22 Short ballistics. While it is fun and unique and a good conversation piece, from an accuracy point of view, it's a toss up whether to shoot it or just throw the gun at the intended target.

"ok thanks for the info . I remember daisy 22 rifles I never knew they took special ammo though . as far as having the rifle who knows . I think there parents were hoarders"

Don't confuse this (the VL rifle) with the later series of bolt action 22s that Daisy sold. Those took regular 22 RF ammo and were pretty decent little rifles with quite a few innovative features. They also did not last long on the scene.

[Multigunner]

There was a Daisy caseless .22 at the local Western Auto (no longer there) many years ago, marked down fairly cheap. I was ready to buy it but when I asked about ammo the clerk said they had none and they no longer made ammo for it.
I passed on the rifle, though now days I'd have snapped it up in a heart beat.

I've read that the piston alone provides enough power to drive a regular pellet around 300 FPS. If I'd known that at the time I'd have bought the gun and taken a chance on finding ammo for it later.

I also passed up a cased Gyrojet handgun around the same time and for the same reason. it was a beautiful presentation grade outfit in a very nice fitted wooden case for $300 , no doubt worth many times that amount these days, but last I heard rocket shells for these now cost about $50 apiece and have a high failure rate.
Since I won't be shooting it out with alien boarding parties on the ISS I can't find a good excuse to get one of these.

[seppos]

The system was kind of unique. burst of air from the piston that was heated when compressed to the point that it could ignite the charge, and plugged by a steel ball valve..
what a unique system.

S

[Multigunner]

With the experiments in dieseling pellets I wonder if one could make useable ammo for the daisy with commonly available materials?
Perhaps a heavy weight pellet intended for a PCP with the base filled with a volatile oil.

I dieseled regular BBs from my little brothers Crosman M1 many years ago by squirting lighter fluid down the bore before cycling its push pull barrel cocking mechanism, drawing the lighter fluid into the piston. When fired it sounded like a .22 short and smoke poured out of the muzzle. not sure how fast it drove the BBs.

[Silver Eagle]

Unless the gun is designed to diesel the seals will be damaged by the heat and pressure.

[DanishM1Garand]

Unless the gun is designed to diesel the seals will be damaged by the heat and pressure.

as a teenager I discovered the diesel effect by putting a drop of oil in the base of the pellet. It wasn't long before I had ruined my pellet gun.

[Traffer]

Future project? Iron out the kinks in diesel small arms. OK, will do.

[labradigger1]

Yep, daisy/heddon air rifle. I have the presentation grade rifle and about 1800 or so boolits.

[Multigunner]

"Unless the gun is designed to diesel the seals will be damaged by the heat and pressure. "

The Crosman M1 is still in the family and despite having gotten rusted solid at one point I was able to get it working again. When my older brother died I was asked if I wanted any of his guns, he had the Crosman at his house, but I figured his sons should keep them and pass them on to their own kids.

The piston of the crosman has a white plastic radial seal that fits into a groove, it expands both ways to seal against the cylinder wall and the groove in the piston. when I disassembled the gun I found the seal was undamaged.
I suspect the dieseling of the lighter fluid vapors was not all that hot, other volatiles are probably to hot for the purpose.
In post WW2 Germany when even .22RF cartridges could be hard to get some hunters had their air rifles fitted with a small pump like that used for spray cologne or perfume to inject vaporized wood alcohol into the cylinder a moment before firing, providing the extra punch they wanted for small to medium game hunting. Some European game birds have layers of feathers too thick for the air rifles of the day to make clean kills.

[Multigunner]

I just remembered something. I have a small aluminum piston that was a miniature souvenier from a local piston making factory. It has the grooves for piston rings.
I wonder if a dedicated dieseling spring piston gun could be built using a miniature automotive type piston?
I also have a couple of old glow plug casteroil model airplane motors. The pistons for these might also work.

A gun built along those lines could incorporate a glow plug as well the connections for the battery operated glow plug could be built into a second trigger or set trigger mechanism. When energized the glow plug would insure proper combustion even in freezing weather, and make shot to shot velocities less variable.

If the diesel cylinder was separate from a air piston driven by the diesel effect, like the Spanish American War era "Dynamite Gun" which had a air piston driven by a blank cartridge or steam pressure, The air pressure could be regulated for best accuracy.

[pietro]

ok thanks for the info . I remember daisy 22 rifles I never knew they took special ammo though . as far as having the rifle who knows . I think there parents were hoarders .

Daisy made normal .22LR guns in the late-1980's, but the caseless ammo was for an earlier (late-1960's) Daisy - the Daisy .22 VL models.

Back when the ammo was readily available, I owned/shot a VL that had a wood-look brown plastic stock and a side-swinging cocking lever alongside the barrel, that also open/closed the breech.


.

[roysha]

Daisy made normal .22LR guns in the late-1980's, but the caseless ammo was for an earlier (late-1960's) Daisy - the Daisy .22 VL models.

Back when the ammo was readily available, I owned/shot a VL that had a wood-look brown plastic stock and a side-swinging cocking lever alongside the barrel, that also open/closed the breech.


.

Interesting. The one I owned back in early 70s and the one I currently own have the cocking lever under the forearm and it is pulled down and back to cock the mechanism and open the breech. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any "anti beartrap " provision so needless to say I am VERY careful when loading because both thumb and forefinger are in the receiver while loading.

[Multigunner]

"Unfortunately, it doesn't have any "anti beartrap " provision so needless to say I am VERY careful when loading because both thumb and forefinger are in the receiver while loading. "
A Chinese air rifle tried to bite my thumb off once. I've been thinking about a solution for use with older models that have no anti bear trap provision.
I have a percussion cap dispenser used for putting caps on C&B nipples. I think the basic design could be adapted as a safe method of inserting pellets in an air rifle breech.

[kmrra]

i remember those from the sixties

[perotter]

I just remembered something. I have a small aluminum piston that was a miniature souvenier from a local piston making factory. It has the grooves for piston rings.
I wonder if a dedicated dieseling spring piston gun could be built using a miniature automotive type piston?
I also have a couple of old glow plug casteroil model airplane motors. The pistons for these might also work.

A gun built along those lines could incorporate a glow plug as well the connections for the battery operated glow plug could be built into a second trigger or set trigger mechanism. When energized the glow plug would insure proper combustion even in freezing weather, and make shot to shot velocities less variable.

If the diesel cylinder was separate from a air piston driven by the diesel effect, like the Spanish American War era "Dynamite Gun" which had a air piston driven by a blank cartridge or steam pressure, The air pressure could be regulated for best accuracy.

I've thought about using the injector from a small diesel engine to go between the piston chamber and the guns chamber. Also, Pauly made some guns the worked on this principal back around 1810-1820 before priming compounds came about. They weren't caseless, but used a cartridge that looked like a shotgun shell.

One of my uncle bought a VL back when they came out and when they announced they would no longer make the ammo he bought 100,000 rounds of it. He passed away some time ago. When I asked my cousin about what happened to it a few years ago, he looked around and found that his nephews had taken the gun and ammo. They shot it a bunch and then 'lost' the gun and ammo.

FWIW. Somewhere around the house I have a write up on making ammo for these. I just looked in the book I thought it was in, but that wasn't where it was in. I want to say that that the guy started by dissolving 700x in acetone, but don't remember how he got it to be a porous pellet of powder.