Flintlocks

[1_Ogre]

It has come to my attention lately that there have been threads concerning loading "Other than round-balls" in a Flintlock.
This is only a precautionary thread as to what can happen.
I have discussed this with many Black Powder shooters and the conclusion is that if you load anything other than a round-ball in a Flintlock you run the risk of creating dangerous pressures, barrel rupture, flash hole "BLOW OUT" and injury to yourself as well as the person beside you from the flash hole blowing out. There have been too many reports of loading a mini in a Flintlock and the flash hole blows out, many times taking the frizzen assembly with it and damage to the firearm as well as the person to the right of you.
The pressure builds up because the Flintlock was originally designed for a "ROUND BALL" to be loaded in it, and when you introduce a mini-ball, the friction coeficient is drastically increased causing massive pressure build up in the barrel, many times causing irrepairable damage to the firearm.
This thread is not to condemn anyone, tell you to "NEVER" shoot anything other than a round ball, or anything like that. This is only to inform you that when shooting anything other than a round ball, you run the risk of extreme pressure build up, possible damage to the firearm, and possible damage/injury to yourself as well as the person to your right (or left if you are a left handed shooter).
Not wanting to start a witch hunt here, but I have been contacted by many experienced Black Powder shooters that are alarmed at the threads and posts in this forum talking about shooting other than round balls in the Flintlock Black Powder rifles and handguns. I understand everyone has their OWN opinions, but experience and disasters trump opinions.
As we all know there are a lot of people on this site that do not even own a Reloading Manual (Black Powder or otherwise) and rely 100% on information given by others. I just don't want anyone getting hurt or damaging an otherwise fine firearm.

[451 Pete]

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to post this. It is very well stated and I do hope you do not get negative feedback from the ones sitting here just waiting to jump on any issue or subject and wanting to cause turmoil on the forum. The forum has a great deal of good information but in my opinion needs to have a few cautions like you mentioned in your post above from time to time. We have to remember that what we are talking about can be read by someone new to shooting black powder or a flintlock and taken as something they will try that in their particular rifle or with their personal experience level can get them into serious trouble.
Again and in the interest of safety, thank you for putting this up.

Pete

[rhouser]

Because I am a new flintlock owner (6 months) I cannot dispute anything that I am reading here. I will offer two sides to this post based on my experience and reading only.

Side 1: I have a new (used) stainless steel and composite Thompson/Center Firestorm flintlock that comes with a manual that includes loads for roundball, Maxi & Mini loads of varying weight bullets, and a Sabot/Jacketed bullet section of loads. I do NOT posit that this makes it good or right. I cannot state that this would be safe in any other flintlock, but, I suspect that they have tested these loads and feel that there is some margin of safety in them. I will now forever wonder if I am going to blow out the flash hole insert. I will certainly make sure I am clear to the right (people or fire hazards) before I fire.

Side 2: The following is based on what I have seen on the range with my rifle. I was shooting on a two at each bench range setup with another shooter (lefty) directly to the right of my rifle. I discussed the flash hole discharge with him and we agreed that he would stop and lean away when I called for a shot (fire in the hole). My cyclic rate is not very fast so this wouldn't be too disruptive on him. In addition I erected a frame the range provides to control auto loaders ejected shells and hung a 14 inch wide piece of full weight floor carpeting over the frame to provide a physical barrier. This carpet was almost a foot from the flash hole. Whenever I fired, the flash hole discharge was enough to move the entire piece of carpet by a full three inches (out and back) like it had been hit with a rock from a slingshot. I was astounded by the violence and power of the flash hole discharge. So was the lefty. We agreed that our process was necessary.

This post is timely to me, because I am new and because I just finished seeing the power of the flash hole discharge. I never even thought about an insert blow out. It would be like a bullet.

Now what do I do about the Thompson Center loading guidelines? Ignore all but the roundball?

very respectfully, rch

[rancher1913]

are the "other than round ball" loads for inlines only or can certain caplocks fire them with a reasonable amount of safety.

[rhouser]

deleted

[rhouser]

I deleted my above response to rancher1913 because he was asking about sidelock percussions.
thanks rch

[1_Ogre]

I am not well versed in the Black Powder arena, but if you want Honest to GOD experience, I'd suggest contacting "451 Pete". That guy has more experience in Black Powder and Flintlocks than you can imagine. If it's been done, he's seen it and he will ONLY give you good advice that's not reckless in any sense of the imagination. He loves Black Powder and if I needed advice, that's the first person I'd go to. Just my opinion, but most of my opinions are from experience and knowing people.

[451 Pete]

RHS,
With a new rifle and following the recommended load data from the manufacturer you should have a certain amount of safety in shooting light bullets. Your rifle is built from modern barrel steel and in that respect has some safety that older guns or originals do not. Manufacturers are in business to sell guns and advertising does not sometimes tell the whole story. As you mentioned in your post, you noticed the amount of back pressure coming back out of the flash hole so you now realize what could happen if something were to go wrong. I am not going to tell you that the data from the manufacturer is wrong but I will caution you of several things.

First is that the flintlock rifle was never of a design built to withstand heavy pressures such as that generated by large projectiles being shot with large powder charges.

Secondly things wear. The hole in the touch hole will enlarge, sometimes very rapidly, when a lot of back pressure is created by firing loads creating those heavy pressures. This will allow even more gas to escape from the firing of the rifle by that gas taking the path of least resistance and out of the touch hole instead of down the barrel.

Lastly is that the manufacturers build these rifles for the majority of the people that only shoot that rifle a few times a year, maybe only several shots to check sights before taking it out in the field to hunt with it. If you are going to do a lot of target shooting make sure to keep the rifle in top condition and stay focused on not only where that barrel is pointed but also on where that touch hole is pointed when it go's off. Also if you notice any enlargement of that touch hole stop shooting it and replace it with a new liner.

Now it is your call as to what you decide to shoot out of it.

Pete

[1_Ogre]

Well said Pete

[waksupi]

I agree with the original post. If you feel you must use the elongated projectiles, shoot them in a proper firearm for the job.
Just because a company tells you that you can do something, doesn't make it a good idea. I recall a black powder handbook that was published years ago by one of the so-called gurus of black powder. In my opinion, most of the loads he had recommended were far above safe and necessary levels, many of them pushing into being down right dangerous.
If you must shoot them, go do it by yourself, so some innocent bystander isn't injured by flying debris. Just because it hasn't blown up 'yet", doesn't mean it can't. That actually applies to any firearm, but I think holds especially true in the original scenario.
Elongated projectiles offer no advantage. A round ball will kill anything we care to tackle.

[KCSO]

And most of the original guns were far thicker in the barrel than we see today and the touchhole was not a liner... and they were made for ROUND BALL. I have never ever sold a flinter that was recommended for anything other than ROUND BALL and BLACK powder.

[charlie b]

From the Lyman web site for the Great Plains Hunter rifle offered in percussion and flint:
The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.

From what has been posted some seem to think Lyman does not know what they are talking about?

I agree that none of the original flintlocks should be fired with other than patched ball.

[varsity07840]

I shoot an original .69 cal flint 1816 that's been rebarreled with a Whitacre rifled tube. I shoot a patched .678 ball that weighs 480 gr or a Rapine semi wadcutter that weighs 500 gr. The charge is the same for both, 80 gr 2F GOEX. Given the same charge and only a 20 gr difference, I fail to see how the minie load is a problem. The problem is when a shooter who uses max or over max roundball loads decides to use the same charge with a conical, which by the way can and will vary in weight for a given caliber, depending on design. They all don't weigh the same.The original government
.69 cal minie weighs 730 gr. There's going to be a big difference in pressure with a given charge between that bullet and my 500 gr bullet that's virtually the same as the roundball. One of the big problems with black powder arms safety is that a novice fails to do any homework before stuffing a load down the barrel. It's not like making a choice between a 150 gr or 180 gr bullet in a factory .30-06 load. On last thing to consider is how heavy the wall thickness of the barrel is. Truth be known, several barrel makers will not warranty thinner wall barrels with percussion drums as opposed to flint liners.

[6pt-sika]

I had Contemporary Longrifle flinters in 45 , 50 and 54 and they all got round balls . I have an original 36 call halfstock percussion that I also only shoot roundballs .

To me that was part of shooting Contemporary or Original longrifles . Same can be said for a nice quality Hawken roundball all the way .

[725]

The ubiquitous 1 / 48 rifling was very popular so it would be adequate with either roundball or boolit. I get the concern overall but shoot what the gun is designed for. If a manufacturer has a manual that gives XY&Z for recommended loads, I'd feel safe with it. My one good friend has a modern in-liner and loads 150 grains behind a sabot bullet. He almost fell off his chair when I told him I shoot 70 grains behind a paper patched boolit. Have never recovered a boolit yet, nor lost an animal. When I'm not shooting this one paper patched, I use a roundball and have never felt under gunned.

[rfd]

pour moi, and strictly for traditional flintlock sidelocks, patched round balls and real black powder rule the roost. i see no reason - hunting or target - to mess with maxie's, minie's or other forms of conicals, saboted or not. what others do with regards with their trad sidelocks and projectiles is of no concern of mine, and i find inline zip guns as heretical aberrations to the term "muzzleloader". to each their own, it's all good.

[Plastikosmd]

I see the point with a traditional gun. I think the advise is a good starting point. This is not to say it cannot be done and safely. I have seen customs by a few of the friendship greats that had no issues on the slug gun range. Heavy projectiles, heavy charges, platinum vent liners, custom actions and barrels. Frankly I own cannons that are less well designed and on a charge/weight comparison they take the cake. Ymmv

[Ballistics in Scotland]

From the Lyman web site for the Great Plains Hunter rifle offered in percussion and flint:
The Great Plains Hunter model features a fast, 1 in 32" shallow groove rifled barrel. It's ideal for shooting the many types of modern projectiles available to today's black powder hunter, such as heavier conical bullets and sabots. The Great Plains Hunter has all of the high quality features of our Classic Great Plains rifle. It is also pre-drilled and tapped for the optional 57 GPR receiver sight for the Great Plains rifle.

From what has been posted some seem to think Lyman does not know what they are talking about?

I agree that none of the original flintlocks should be fired with other than patched ball.

They do know what they are talking about, and that twist would be rather bad for round ball. We should also remember that balls are loaded with a cloth patch, which some people make as tight as they can get down the bore. I think a fairly light conical bullet will impose less pressure than that. It is the really heavy bullet sometimes used with percussion target rifles that we really need to avoid. But you can't buy a ready made rifle for those.

I agree that flash-hole liners are a very dubious proposition. I would want a stainless or other insert it to be silver soldered in place, or a conical insert to be put in place via a pluggable hole in the other side of the breech-plug. If the rifle is built with an investment cast breech-plug like Track of the Wolf's, it is even worth replacing it when the hole enlarges.

For the safety and convenience of others on the range, though not hole enlargement, the shape of the pan can be significant.

[rhouser]

451 Pete, thanks for your insight. I bought a used stainless steel Fire Storm with the Tru-Glo adjustable sights and the composite stock because it is intuitively so wrong and I just couldn't help it. I love this thing. Minimalist with no percussion cap. Just drop the powder, drop a PRB (I learned this here), ram it home, prime the pan and flash/bang.

I did not even quote the loads that came with this gun. They are easily "magnum" loads showing pellet loads in addition to the B/P load data. I will stick with the B/P because the lock times are faster, but, I have confirmed it will shoot pyrodex rs and 777.

My favorite load so far is a .490 ball with a .15 lubed patch and 60 gr of black powder. I can shoot 3 balls touching at 50 yards. I don't know where they go at 100 yards. I increased my powder to 90 grains and the round balls showed up again at 100 yards.

I bought a maxi-ball mold and already had a lee r-e-a-l mold in 50 to see how it would shoot with no patch. With the 90 grain 2f load it is accurate enough for deer at 100.

I want to be safe, and now will be conscious of the "blow out" risk. Thanks to you all for this great sight and the time you give to improve casting and shooting lead.

v/r rch

[Tatume]

Since I started this with my inquiry, I'll follow up with my own observations. The discussion started with a question about building a new flintlock rifle, using modern materials. Responses have been all over the board.

Here's what I consider to be the bottom line. My Parker-Hale Volunteer shoots a 450 grain bullet. The nipple is threaded 5/16"-18 tpi. The rifle I'm having built will use the same diameter and weight bullet. The Chambers "White Lightin" vent liner is threaded 5/16"-32 tpi. The vent liner has a larger orifice and stronger threads than the Volunteer nipple. It should easily contain the same pressure as the Volunteer.