Mixed buckshot and birdshot for self-defense--would this be worthwhile?

[nagantguy]

For room distance I'd not hesitate to use bird shot nor would I want to be hit with it,load up some of this sinister mix and let's us know how it works.

[beagle]

Appreciate the comment. I am indeed responsible for that article. I enjoyed testing for it and writing it and shoot a lot of 2 ball .38 Specials here on the farm.

Back to buckshot. In the 60s, my dad worked for the NC Prison department and was in charge of a "road gang" (shades of Cool Hand Luke). The guards were armed with 12 gauge double barrel shotguns loaded with Remington Express #4 Buck. He had a prisoner attempt to escape from one of his road gangs. The guy sneaked into a corn field while the guard wasn't looking. The guard saw corn stalks waving and cut loose with two shots through the corn at a range that was between 75 and 100 yards. One pellet hit the prisoner right above the belt in his back and knocked him down. He told dad it felt like someone had hit him across the back with an axe handle. I'm saying that buckshot is great for defense but #2s give a big advantage in pellet count. I've shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds of #4 Buck (dad always brought home the ragged paper shells when he replaced the carry ammo...to destroy) and the 27 pellet load is great but not enough of it.

I have a box of #3 shot loaded right now (got the shot from someone on here as they don't make it any more that I can find) but have only fired two rounds so haven't formed a conclusion on them. That was Elmer Keiths favorite load for geese./beagle

QUOTE=victorfox;3610786]Mr. Beagle, are you the man behind some "round ball" loads PDF? If so, I'd like to thank you, that file helped me a lot with my gun.

I'm also with you on the #2 shot. I've shot about anything using a 32ga with BB shot (not that bigger than #2) and with good results at close range. Don't think mixing shot sizes (unless it's reclaimed shot you load for practice...) would do more harm than a same size load.[/QUOTE]

[Ballistics in Scotland]

According to books, .25ACP would be enough for well trained spies... That's was what James Bond used, before someone suggested something better to Sir Ian Fleming... Ops, looks like that failed too...

Just for kicks, most cases of human death I know about, involving a shotgun, had a light gauge (.410 to 28), misc birdshot, across the room distance, and horrible wounds (fatal too). So, while I prefer buckshot for my own defense, I beg to disagree with those who say birdshot is "ineffective". Of course YMMV if add winter clothing and longer distances. And yes, if birdshot was the only thing I had available I'd use it and shoot twice.

Despite its miserable performance as a combat pistol (though not as a threat), the .25ACP has undoubtedly killed more people than any other pistol cartridge, in the hands of Stalin's General Blokhin, who at 300 executions a night didn't want to waste time checking for vital signs. I knew slightly the British gun-collecting author Geoffrey Boothroyd,who persuaded Fleming to drop the Beretta, and was rewarded with "Q" (the traditional British army term for the quartermaster's department) being named Major Boothroyd. I would suspect that genuine spies, whose form of trouble is seldom subject to trouble-shooting, seldom carry anything so incriminating.

A full magazine of .25ACP isn't very different, mathematically, from a charge of buckshot, and yet it is far more likely to start the slow walk forward which becomes unstoppable in man or beast. A missile creates a momentary temporary cavity which subsides to a permanent cavity, which in the case of a FMJ pistol bullet or similar is often no wider than the bullet. The destructive effect of a missile depends very much on the extent to which that temporarily displaced tissue is devitalized. Perhaps it is greater when the tissues are compressed from two directions simultaneously. Ballistic gelatin doesn't get devitalized, but it could easily be that the distance between hits is important. On a deer at fifty yards, buckshot can easily produce two or three widely separated hits, in places you wouldn't really want to hit with rifle.

In the UK, where a policeman doesn't get deliberately killed every year, there was a case a long time back where one was killed with a .410 and birdshot. Maybe the frequency of accidents with smallbore guns reflects their often being in the hands of juveniles or people whose interest doesn't go beyond pest control or poaching.

Every so often the idea of mixed sizes of birdshot, for shooting birds in flight, gets suggested. In practice they separate out as they lose velocity at different rates, and you don't have any chance of putting a fast crossing bird in more than part of the charge.

[NavyVet1959]

I made the mistake of shooting an armadillo with bird shot many years ago. The pellets just bounced off his shell. The smallest pellet I use is BB size. Although my defensive shotgun load is either 00-buck or 000-buck, I suspect the rounds loaded with BB size shot would be rather unpleasant and end the encounter rather quickly.

[victorfox]

Despite its miserable performance as a combat pistol (though not as a threat), the .25ACP has undoubtedly killed more people than any other pistol cartridge, in the hands of Stalin's General Blokhin, who at 300 executions a night didn't want to waste time checking for vital signs. I knew slightly the British gun-collecting author Geoffrey Boothroyd,who persuaded Fleming to drop the Beretta, and was rewarded with "Q" (the traditional British army term for the quartermaster's department) being named Major Boothroyd. I would suspect that genuine spies, whose form of trouble is seldom subject to trouble-shooting, seldom carry anything so incriminating.

A full magazine of .25ACP isn't very different, mathematically, from a charge of buckshot, and yet it is far more likely to start the slow walk forward which becomes unstoppable in man or beast. A missile creates a momentary temporary cavity which subsides to a permanent cavity, which in the case of a FMJ pistol bullet or similar is often no wider than the bullet. The destructive effect of a missile depends very much on the extent to which that temporarily displaced tissue is devitalized. Perhaps it is greater when the tissues are compressed from two directions simultaneously. Ballistic gelatin doesn't get devitalized, but it could easily be that the distance between hits is important. On a deer at fifty yards, buckshot can easily produce two or three widely separated hits, in places you wouldn't really want to hit with rifle.

In the UK, where a policeman doesn't get deliberately killed every year, there was a case a long time back where one was killed with a .410 and birdshot. Maybe the frequency of accidents with smallbore guns reflects their often being in the hands of juveniles or people whose interest doesn't go beyond pest control or poaching.

Every so often the idea of mixed sizes of birdshot, for shooting birds in flight, gets suggested. In practice they separate out as they lose velocity at different rates, and you don't have any chance of putting a fast crossing bird in more than part of the charge.

Sir, don't take it too serious. That was only a silly joke on the .25. I have a .22 handgun myself and while not my 1st choice, I wouldn't hesitate to unload it on any threat. I'd even use my airgun or slingshot if that was what I was carrying. BTW, nice explanation and I'm with you. Any game animal deserves more than a perp that's trying to do you any damage.

[Outpost75]

network lag time dupe deleted

[Outpost75]

"The Truth About Buckshot" - American Rifleman October, 1982 - abstract


This article summarizes the results of firing approximately 500 patterns with Remington Express 12-ga. buffered buckshot loads, without shot wrapper from Model 870 shotguns. Firings were conducted by NRA Technical Staff, using test materials provided by Remington. (The article published in American Rifleman was oriented towards deer hunting for political reasons).

Ten patterns each were fired at 25 and 40 yards, from cylinder, improved cylinder, modified and full choked barrels. The cylinder and IC barrels were both 20 inches. The modified and full choked barrels were standard field barrels of 26" and 28", respectively.
(While modified and full 20 inch police and military barrels were also tested also, those results were not included in the published article, because of the desire to maintain a "sporting" focus). Other than an insignificant drop in velocity, results with the shorter, more tightly choked barrels was not materially different from the common sporting-length barrels.

The same Remington 870 receiver was fired repeatedly interchanging the four different barrels.

Patterns were fired against a 48" square plate of AR500 steel 3/8" thick, photographed and the oiled pigment rebrushed between shots. Pellet hits were plotted in relation to a clear plastic overlay having a 30" outer circle, positioned to contain the greatest number of pellets, with a 21.2" inner circle, the 30" circle and inner ring being quartered into eight equal-area fields. The 21.2" inner circle approximates the major torso area of an Army "E" or FBI silhouette. Pellets striking inside the inner ring have a greater probability of striking vital organs, whereas those on the fringe outside the inner circle, within the 30" outer ring are more likely to cause non-life threatening wounds to the extremities.

A 100% pattern in which all pellets strike within the 30" ring may be ineffective unless the center of the pattern surrounding the aiming point contains more than three hits. The combination of soft buckshot, unbuffered loads and tight chokes increased pellet deformation which can result in "doughnut" shaped patterns having weak centers.

Analysis of FBI and military combat wound data from WW2, Korean and Vietnam conducted jointly by the FBI Firearms Unit and the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology indicates that fewer than three pellet hits of 00 buckshot do not produce instant incapacitation, unless one or more of those pellets strike vital areas of the head, neck, or chest. With random distribution of as few as three pellets in the 21.2" circle, hitting a vital spot depends mostly on luck and random variations of chance. More hits are better!

A single 00 pellet at a range of 30 yards has a kinetic energy of about 120 ft.-lbs. Three pellet hits produce 360 ft.-lbs., which approximates the kinetic energy of a single round of .45 cal. M1911 Ball ammunition fired from the service pistol. More than three pellet hits, when their combined effect is distributed over the body, produce greater shock to the nervous and vascular systems and vital organs struck than a single projectile hit having the same kinetic energy.

For law enforcement and military purposes 4 or more hits of 00 buckshot was considered "adequate" performance, producing a high probability of instant incapacitation. Any shotgun-ammo combination reliably producing 5 hits with 00 at realistic combat ranges from 25 to 40 yards is said to provide "good" performance. More than 5 hits is considered "excellent."

The standard Remington Express 9-pellet buffered load of 00 buck with no shot sleeve, (as loaded in the early 1980s when this testing was done) fired from an 870 cylinder bore 20" riot gun averages 8.9 hits in the 30" circle and 7.1 in the 21.2" inner ring at 25 yards. This falls off to 7.5 and 3.3 hits at 40 yards.

Repeating the test using a 20-inch improved cylinder barrel, all nine pellets strike in the 30" circle and 8.6 in the 21.2" inner ring at 25 yards. Repeating the test again, at 40 yards, the IC barrel produced 8.0 and 4.4 hits, respectively. For civilian home defense purposes the 20" improved cylinder "Brushmaster" or "Deer" barrels with rifle sights will give dependable performance. For combat use the 12-pellet "short-magnum" load of 00 buck is a better choice in 2-3/4" chambered guns, if you can tolerate additional recoil. Even though the pattern percentages produced are lower, you can expect one additional pellet hit inside the inner ring.

If you wish to maximize pellet count to optimize pattern density, while still having adequate penetration to defeat interior walls or auto glass, the 20-pellet "short magnum" load of No.1 buck is probably the best choice. No.1 buckshot weigh 40 grains each, producing 103 ft.-lbs. at the muzzle, 69 ft.-lbs. at 30 yards and 61-ft.-lbs. at 40 yards. It takes nearly twice as many pellet hits with No.1 to produce the same kinetic energy as half the number of 00, so 6 pellet hits are marginal, 8 "adequate" and ten or more "good" performance.

No. 4 buck weigh only 20.7 grains each, and have 81 ft. lbs. of energy per pellet at the muzzle, 45 ft. lbs. at 30 yards and 41 ft. lbs. at 40 yards. Experience has shown that despite excellent pattern density, their penetration is inadequate, except for interior guard use where risk of collateral damage to innocent bystanders in adjacent rooms must be minimized.

The entire article is worth reading if your local library keeps bound volumes of American Rifleman (sadly, the article is not available online anywhere, so far as I know), but the above abstract gives you what we really need to know.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I recall an even earlier article, in "Guns and Ammo" I think, which reached very much the same conclusions. Like any other shotgun, the choice is between power and range in each pellet, and having enough pellets to put something on the right part of the target. So they stressed buffering with sawdust and the use of a finely grooved card shot sleeve which was then available as a reloading item. I don't remember the numbers, but they also favoured the use of smaller buckshot than 00, which they thought would run low on coverage before it ran low on energy.

While buffering is clearly useful in producing the optimum pattern, I should think most usable substances would produces momentary obscurity of vision during a second shot.

[Tackleberry41]

Most would say birdshot is not effective for defense. I remember shooting an old junk car, bird shot just made a big dent in the door. Yea by the math a cloud of birdshot has the same energy as it would made of buckshot, but each individual pellet has little real energy. Now in a house, I have little doubt a 12 ga full of cheap #8 would kill somebody just as dead as buckshot would. Tho as is well known heavy clothes will often stop birdshot. Maybe only use them in summer. Dick Cheney nearly killed his friend, not from the energy of the initial shot, but a pellet getting into his blood stream.

We usually laugh at a 25. They are pretty weak, but right place in the back of the head, obviously work pretty good. Those nagant revolvers, they are not exactly cannons. Yet piles of people were killed with them, usually under the same circumstances, bullet to the back of the head. How many were killed with German 32ACP? The Welrod gun was only 32, but was designed to be pressed against its target to reduce the noise. Im sure a 45 ACP welrod would be more effective, but also way more recoil, maybe to effective. A 32ACP is unlikely to leave its target at such range, and give away the fact anybody was shot. A 45 that close might just carry thru to the other side. So maybe some method to the madness.

I have seen plenty of stuff in 'action' series. They were generally pretty good at doing their research where stuff was usually right. Other times they fudged things so it sounded cooler. I have put birdshot in with buck loads, but only to get the weight right. I wouldn't use it under the idea it would make more wounds.

[GhostHawk]

Early in life I shot a pigeon with a .410 shotgun and a load of 3" 6's at a bit too close range. Hit him dead square in the body. You could easily look through the hole to the far side of the body. I believe the term "bloody rat hole" sums it up rather well. Bigger gauge = bigger hole. It will do that with any shot, large or small at close range. Out past 25 yards you stop seeing a single hole.

As for penetration, the only real world, live target penetration test done by anyone I have ever met was done by my shooting buddy. He had the misfortune to have a young man crash through his door one night, too drunk to talk, and lost. Ohh and angry, when my buddy said get out he tried to hit him in the head. When he said he was going for his shotgun the drunk kid tried again and connected.

So my buddy got his shotgun, racked one in, pointed, kid grabbed the barrel. Buddy had half a second to decide, him or me. And he pulled the trigger. Kid screamed, let go, ran downstairs, curled up in a corner and died. Birdshot, 1 shot, point blank blank range = fatal.

No charges filed, but my buddy is a shell of the man he used to be. That kids death haunts him, but he did everything he could have done. The PTSD is raising real heck with him.

Every word above is real and true and factual to the best of my knowledge.

Pray you never have to. But be ready. 7.5's are just fine for inside distances. Only need more for attack or longer range.

[victorfox]

Tackleberry41, I just wanted to make laugh from the .25 and what we see in books. I live in a place where weird stuff happens all the time. Like an old guy that went twice to the jail for killing 3 man with a .22 in different occasions, a grandfather that accidentally killed his own grandson with an air rifle (Springer .22). A friend's uncle that was killed with a .22 to the heart. Anything that propels a projectile is dangerous in itself, see Goliath.Ghosthawk, I see what you mean. My dad had a police friend that was obliged to shoot his own son, a drug addict, after the young man beated the heck out of his own mother and was trying to kill the old man. After that, he was what you described a shell, a mummy of the man he was. Sad to hear this of your friend but it's an aspect many people don't account for when discussing self defense. It's not like in the movies.

[lobogunleather]

I was preparing to say, "Why not use #2s". Several years back I was at a yard sale and picked up two boxes of Winchester XX Magnum #2 ounce and a half loads (lead).

From my testing of them, and you're saying for self defense, if there's a man that can take a load of them at 50 yards, he's a better man than I am.

Past 50 yards, if you want buckshot, go for it. A shot with buckshot is a "hail mary" at that range anyway due to the pellet count./beagle

My Remington 870 (21" barrel, IC choke tube) sits in the closet loaded with 2-3/4" loads of BB-shot.

The longest open space in my home is about 30 feet long. At that range the BB-shot loads are quite effective, but I have less worries of over-penetration. 1.25 ounce (about 550 grains), about 50 pellets of 0.18" nominal diameter.

[PerpetualStudent]

What Ghosthawk says agrees with the research I've done, especially the research into the medical examiner "literature". At close enough range the birdshot enters the target as one piece and will do as much damage as a slug. I have no qualms about 7.5 for home defense.

However, getting back to the original idea of mixing buck and bird I must say I don't like the idea. A few birdshot hitting alongside the buck isn't going make life better for the target but I don't think it would make much difference. And, if you're a believer in birdshot for self defense, an ignored part of it is that birdshot aimed at the head can destroy the eyes with very little penetration. Even the edges of the pattern can do that so birdhshot can, in my view, be aimed at the head. If you've got buckshot though, you want each one to enter the target meaning body shots only. And I'd treat a mixed load the same: center mass only.

[jmort]

"At close enough range the birdshot enters the target as one piece and will do as much damage as a slug."

This thread has a serious amount of misinformation. That is some magic birdshot.There is also the stated notion that birdshot will be effective for self-defense out to 50 yards. Use what makes sense. Good luck with all that. Why not spend 5 minutes and consider the facts:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...arious-rounds/

[PerpetualStudent]

That quote is not word for word but I've taken it from Vincent Di Maio's "Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques" A source I trust far more than TTAG.

And it is certainly NOT what happens at 50 yards. It's talking about across the room distances. At that range it does. And birdshot at that range, as Ghosthawk's story tells, will do enough damage.

In fact the TTAG link actually admits this "For ultra close range applications (ie: inside your home) this load would likely be effective" They note specifically #2 bird but I will argue birdshot in general.

Short of perimeter defense in a breakdown of society, I can't see self defense at shooting with a shotgun out to 50 yards. In such a situation the philosophical question is slug vs buck, and even, rifle vs shotgun. Birdshot doesn't even enter into it.

[imashooter2]

The whole point of buck is to ensure adequate penetration if your assailant doesn't give you a perfect B-24 pose or if there is an intermediate barrier like a door or an arm. Certainly birdshot will work under a narrow set of conditions. Why limit yourself to such a load for what might well be the most important shot of your life?

[Greg5278]

Why even goof around with a Defense Load? Liability does become an unfortunate Issue. I can and have created some really nasty Loads, but wouldn't want to Defend their Use against a Perp. One of my HP Slugs expands to 1.5" in 3 Water Jugs at 5 Yards. I've had machined brass Sabot Slugs that go to 7 predictable Pieces at anything over 700 FPS in a rifled 12 Ga.

If You need a Defense Load, I'd go with Federal LE Loads or a Federal Load using the FC Wad. Those have been the best patterning in my Experience with many Shotguns, from custom Choked to Cylinder bore Stock cheap Mossbergs.

Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[DougGuy]

I keep two 3" magnum 2oz. "goose loads" first up in my Mossy 500, then start with 2 3/4" 00 buck.

I think the goose loads are #2 shot and in a cylinder bore barrel inside of most residential dwellings a perp ain't got a chance if he takes it mid torso and the goose loads aren't too keen on penetrating brick walls or solid doors.

If he gets past the first two rounds, the next 4 are 00 and the last two are 1oz. Foster slugs.

[NavyVet1959]

Sometimes when I'm casting 9mm bullets and I end up with rejects, I wonder about using them as "buck shot" after mashing them square in my arbor press. It would be interesting to see what that would do to ballistic gel...

[jmort]

"In fact the TTAG link actually admits this "For ultra close range applications (ie: inside your home) this load would likely be effective" "

How about going back to my post #14 which states, verbatim:

If only one .30" buck-shot hits at 50 yards that will be far better than 20 #2 bird-shots hitting at 50 yards. The logic in a number of these posts is flawed to say the least. At point-blank-range, no barriers, with #2 bird-shot you get this:

"Small sized birdshot such as this #2 express load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures. For ultra close range applications (ie: inside your home) this load would likely be effective, however an operator should be prepared to follow up with larger shot in the event that additional force is required to stop a threat."

Check out the photos and make your our decision.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...arious-rounds/