Pros/cons of neck-sizing methods?

[blixen]

So, just exactly how do you convert a FCD into a neck sizing die?

If I,m understanding your question... You simply back the full-length die out--away from the base--until the case only goes in far enough to make contact with the neck, but doesn't squeeze the sides of the case.

Or do you mean something more permanent?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Sparky: You don't,,, they are completely different dies.

There are two types of Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

1. Ones for Pistol Cases which are nothing more that a Taper Crimp die with a Carbide Ring in the bottom to iron out any bulges you put in the case when loading it to insure it will chamber.

2. The Rifle Factory Crimp Die uses a collet which gets shoved into a taper by the shell holder which closes it around the case mouth to form a 4 segment crimp generally placed in the cannelure of the bullet. These are cartridge specific as the collet length is critical to the placement of the crimp on the case mouth.

Then Lee also has a Collet Style Neck Sizing Die. It works the same way that the crimp die does except instead of just making a small impression on the case mouth it squishes the whole length of the neck around a mandrel which defines the final neck diameter.

Hope this explains this for all.

Randy

[joesig]

Have you polished the expander mandrel, ball, to a mirror finish or tried using the powdered graphite to lube the inside of the necks to alleviate this 'screeching' business? This can also affect pushing/pulling the shoulder and changing dimensions. In the end, regardless of approach I want to see minimum run out of less than .005" so that is a problem for me too. OS OK

Sorry for the delayed reply. I have not used lube. I have polished or reshaped and polished some of the balls and that has helped. So has wet tumbling. I completely agree the friction can move the brass around in unwanted ways. Even on a good day, it just strikes me as unnatural to use force on the up stroke of the handle. I do need to get off my butt and make a run out gauge to see if these fancy dies help as much as I'd like and polish my techniques.

[OS OK]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I have not used lube. I have polished or reshaped and polished some of the balls and that has helped. So has wet tumbling. I completely agree the friction can move the brass around in unwanted ways. Even on a good day, it just strikes me as unnatural to use force on the up stroke of the handle. I do need to get off my butt and make a run out gauge to see if these fancy dies help as much as I'd like and polish my techniques.

I bought the Run out indicator some years back…expecting it to confirm that I was making 'jim dandy' rounds…well…It was a slap in the face with a cold dead fish, my 'ego' was crushed when I saw my .308 match rounds at .008 to .010" run out and only occasionally under .005". That sent me back to the books…had to buy a 'Benchrest Shooters' book that addressed these symptoms that the usual loader is not aware of. BRS's are an entirely different group all together…talking about OCD whoooyaah, mine is nothing compared to them! But…the bottom line here was it took me into another level of loading with much narrower parameters that seems to have stuck with me…can't help it any more and that's one of the reasons I still ask so many technical questions. No matter how many years you have pulled that press handle, there is someone who knows something through experience that you don't know.

OS OK

[WFO2]

Right there with you man. Been there done that made me take extra care in case prep and buy some new 308 dies.

[flashhole]

Do you turn the necks on your brass for uniformity? If yes, another option is to have the neck of your FL sizer die reamed to the exact OD you need to size your brass with the tension you want. This allows you to remove the expander ball that can cause runout problems when pulling the expander up through the neck.

[OS OK]

Do you turn the necks on your brass for uniformity? If yes, another option is to have the neck of your FL sizer die reamed to the exact OD you need to size your brass with the tension you want. This allows you to remove the expander ball that can cause runout problems when pulling the expander up through the neck.

The neck expansion ideas for the Bench Rest crowd means to turn those necks and then use the bushing. Then came the neck size only die that would prevent the growth of the ctg. case neck length. Without turning those necks you won't be able to control the run out and get it down to .002" or less.
This was too much effort for me as I decided that if I could keep them under .005" I'd be satisfied. If you cull those necks that cause the problem you can have a really overall good batch done by conventional means.
We can chase this to a point where the purist start loading by entirely different means, different presses and dies, neck turning etc…and then among them there are the purist who think that things can 'only' be done by a certain methodology and mfgrs. eqpt. …it get's deep fast! Expensive too.

OS OK

[dudel]

I use the Lee Collet die for 22Hornet brass. Case walls are very thin, and it's just too easy to collapse the brass with FL die. The collet dies eliminate that risk. I have two guns that shoot 22 Hornet. Both are single shot (Contender and Handi). I keep their brass separate.

Also, no need to lube with the collet dies. Very little "working" of the brass. For the truly OCD among us, I've been told to run the brass into the collet die, lower the ram, turn the brass 90 degrees, and give it one more run through the collet die. This is supposed to help concentricity.

[OS OK]

I use the Lee Collet die for 22Hornet brass. Case walls are very thin, and it's just too easy to collapse the brass with FL die. The collet dies eliminate that risk. I have two guns that shoot 22 Hornet. Both are single shot (Contender and Handi). I keep their brass separate.

Also, no need to lube with the collet dies. Very little "working" of the brass. For the truly OCD among us, I've been told to run the brass into the collet die, lower the ram, turn the brass 90 degrees, and give it one more run through the collet die. This is supposed to help concentricity.

Whoever told you that knew what he was doing…it works. Well, 'mostly works'. When I received my concentricity gage I tried this, (standard RCBS, LEE & Hornady die sets) even to the point where I only turned by 120 degrees (3 times, incrementally) per round. This method will sort those necks really fast, then cull them to a separate batch to be dealt with as you see fit.
You meant 180 degrees, right?

OS OK

[sparky45]

Sparky: You don't,,, they are completely different dies.

There are two types of Lee Factory Crimp Dies.

1. Ones for Pistol Cases which are nothing more that a Taper Crimp die with a Carbide Ring in the bottom to iron out any bulges you put in the case when loading it to insure it will chamber.

2. The Rifle Factory Crimp Die uses a collet which gets shoved into a taper by the shell holder which closes it around the case mouth to form a 4 segment crimp generally placed in the cannelure of the bullet. These are cartridge specific as the collet length is critical to the placement of the crimp on the case mouth.

Then Lee also has a Collet Style Neck Sizing Die. It works the same way that the crimp die does except instead of just making a small impression on the case mouth it squishes the whole length of the neck around a mandrel which defines the final neck diameter.

Hope this explains this for all.

Randy

Thanks Randy, that's what I needed to know.

[kenyerian]

I use the Lee Collet die for 22Hornet brass. Case walls are very thin, and it's just too easy to collapse the brass with FL die. The collet dies eliminate that risk. I have two guns that shoot 22 Hornet. Both are single shot (Contender and Handi). I keep their brass separate.

Also, no need to lube with the collet dies. Very little "working" of the brass. For the truly OCD among us, I've been told to run the brass into the collet die, lower the ram, turn the brass 90 degrees, and give it one more run through the collet die. This is supposed to help concentricity.

This is very good advice. I do the same thing with the hornet. Really helps your brass last and gives you the most accuracy as well. A win win situation.

[dudel]

Whoever told you that knew what he was doing…it works. Well, 'mostly works'. When I received my concentricity gage I tried this, (standard RCBS, LEE & Hornady die sets) even to the point where I only turned by 120 degrees (3 times, incrementally) per round. This method will sort those necks really fast, then cull them to a separate batch to be dealt with as you see fit.
You meant 180 degrees, right?

OS OK

LOL, the old timer said 90 (quarter turn). He may have meant 180 (I'll never know now). I think 2 turns of 120 would be good as well. In any event, it seems to help. Can't complain about my 22Hornet loads. I was worried about the Handi (it didn't do well with factory ammo). I needed the factory ammo because 22H brass is very, very hard to find. Single shots ensure that I don't lose any brass!

[OS OK]

LOL, the old timer said 90 (quarter turn). He may have meant 180 (I'll never know now). I think 2 turns of 120 would be good as well. In any event, it seems to help. Can't complain about my 22Hornet loads. I was worried about the Handi (it didn't do well with factory ammo). I needed the factory ammo because 22H brass is very, very hard to find. Single shots ensure that I don't lose any brass!

Here goes the OCD thing agin but I experimented with three different die sizers lots of fired brass and turning methods and pull it out and check the concentricity. I would mark the the side of the case neck that was reading high on the gage beforehand. I watched that high mark move laterally around the neck as it went into that old RCBS die. The method regardless of how you do it will not completely off set the discrepancy depending on whether the problem is with the neck needing turning or whether it is with the die as stated.
I kept at until I almost forgot what I was trying to accomplish, looking at my scribbled notes and then getting confused over which ctg. was which test…I had to walk away and start fresh a week or so later…still frustrated on return. Just how much 'attention to detail' is really required?
Now I'm frustrated again at how frustrated I was then…think I'll just get a bigger hammer.

charlie

PS…the Hornady competition die set does the best job with my .308.

[joesig]

BRS's are an entirely different group all together…talking about OCD whoooyaah, mine is nothing compared to them! But…the bottom line here was it took me into another level of loading with much narrower parameters that seems to have stuck with me…can't help it any more and that's one of the reasons I still ask so many technical questions. No matter how many years you have pulled that press handle, there is someone who knows something through experience that you don't know.

OS OK

Amen! There is always something to learn or relearn! That's one of the more interesting aspects of this hobby.