Custom Bisley 45 accuracy issue

[4bisley5]

Have a question about bullet hardness. This may not be the correct location to post this question but here goes. I'm new to cast shooting. The last 30 years has been just reloading jacketed in my 44 and 41 mags. Never had a concern with accuracy as they all seemed to shoot well.
I have a Ruger Bisley Clements Custom conversion chambered in 45 Colt and decided to try moving strictly to cast. The gun will flat out shoot like crazy when I have it loaded full throttle. I'm trying to load these down to a standard type loading. I'm getting to where I dislike the thunder and need a milder shooting load.
The current load this revolver loves is:

270 grain Keith from Leadhead sized .452 (BHN 21)
24.0 grains IMR 4227
CCI 350
Starline cases

Accuracy drops off to a terrible level when loaded with some mild loads of Unique and Power Pistol. I've been testing the loads from the Brian Pearce article on that bullet.

Now for my question. Is BHN 21 too hard for lower pressure velocities and shooting? I've read about it elsewhere but would really like to here it from some of folks that may have experienced the same. I assumed that if you have proper dimensions it wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Mark

[Tatume]

No. You should be able to find a load the gun likes with that bullet, if it fits your throats. Have you checked your throat diameter? I suspect you have a good fit, as Clements probably wouldn't cut them too large, but it's worthwhile to check anyway.

How much Unique have you tried. PM me and I'll tell you what I use.

Take care, Tom

[RobS]

I've found that the 270 Keith to run very well with only few different loads and only so, so with others. I later designed a LFN style boolit that will shoot well with numerous powder/boolit combinations. If I remember correctly my best Unique load with the RCBS SAA 270 grain Keith was 10.5 grains with a water quenched WW allow at around 20-22 BHN.

Large Frame Ruger Bisley with .4525 throats

[C. Latch]

There are a very few people who seem to do well with really hard bullets, such as you describe using, but most of us are much happier with bullets than are relatively soft, and especially so with lighter loads.


Speaking for myself, I love custom sixguns and would love to see pics of yours. I'm waiting for an open slot with another smith to have some very basic custom work done on a Ruger Bisley myself.

[DougGuy]

You may want to look into trying some boolits without the Keith style driving band at the shoulder, and a smooth transition from a wide meplat down the ogive and into the sides of the boolit. These hit the forcing cone with near parallel surfaces and are much less distorted upon firing than a K type boolit. I suspect your forcing cone would be better suited for these RF or WFN style boolits than the K style. As mentioned earlier, you should be sizing to a light drag fit in the throats. Also, how even are the throats with one another?

Hardness is another question, I have really good results with almost every boolit style in 50/50+2% (coww/lead/2% tin) this is an alloy that is a perfect match for Ruger's rifling and twist rate, when paired up with Felix lube or other soft lube even SPG, I get stellar results and never even have to clean the bore.

So, my suggestion is to try a smooth sided boolit with softer alloy and soft lube. <-- IF the barrel takes a liking to this combo like I think it will, you will know right off the bat if it was the right direction to go in. I would ask around and see if you can get a sample of some of these 50/50 WFN or RF boolits and give them a try.

[T-Bird]

I shoot that boolit out of my Ruger Bisley with either 11 gr AA#5( 900fps)or 19gr Lil Gun (1100fps) with good accuracy out of coww+2%. Size .452, had my cylinder throats opened years ago to .4525.

[4bisley5]

[Blackwater]

This isn't the answer you were looking for, but in my experience, lighter loads are generally best and most easily achieved by going to a lighter bullet. Heavy bullets just simply give heavier recoil. It's the "action-reaction" thing. And also, slower powders such as 4227 don't often yield great results with mild loads either, so I'd also recommend another, faster burning powder. FWIW, a buddy who's a great fan of the LC found happiness looking for the same thing you're looking for in the end - a lighter load with less recoil - with 6.5-6.7 gr. Red Dot under a 200 gr. RNFP bullet. He was shooting Oregon Trails because he doesn't like casting, but the Lee 200 gr. RNFP mold is cheap, and would save you money in the long run by stretching your lead supply out significantly further. The faster powder will also prove cheaper, too, since you get so many more reloads out of a single pound of it than with the slower burners. FWIW?

[Lloyd Smale]

like others I haven't had the best luck with the 270 rcbs swc. When it does shoot well its usually only at 1200 fps or more. I would suggest you look into a 280 lfn of some sorts. Lbt makes a real good one. If that doesn't work ive had decent luck in 45s with the 300 rcbs swcgc ran 1000-1100 fps. Don't put much store in the suggestions to cast softer. Daves guns are made with proper dimensions and in the 40 years ive been loading and casting for handguns 99 percent of the time if the guns right, harder bullets shoot better. Bottom line is your running into what ive said for years on there. The 45 colt can be much more finicky to load for then a 44. Ive owned MANY of them and have probably fought with every one of them to get a 250-280 grain bullet to shoot well in them, especially at mild levels. Now if your talking 300 grain and up and top end loads its a different animal and most shoot real well at that level. Now another thing your going to run into here is what some consider accurate. To me an accurate load puts 6 shots into an inch at 25 yards and an inch and a half AT MOST! Some are happy with 3 inch groups or the ability to hit a beer can at 15 steps.

[44man]

I am the hard boolit guy, at least 20-22 BHN in revolvers.
With a Keith, I only started to get accuracy using a fast powder, Unique and 231, when I got to 28-30 BHN. As Doug mentioned, keeps the shoulder from smearing off at the cone.
Fit is important and a lot of store bought boolits lack fit. Hard boolits do not cause leading.
Use a soft lube, I prefer Felix over anything else. Best lubes will have lanolin for "sticky."
If I need softer for hunting I cast a portion of the nose softer so the drive is still hard.
As you go up in caliber and power, the Keith gets worse and worse.

[Texantothecore]

Try a .454 round ball. It should work just fine. 45lc is known for good round ball performance.

[johnson1942]

i agree with the post above. i use 18 grains by weight of blackhorn 209 power, then 2, 60 thousands thick hard fiber or poly wads then a .454 round ball. roll crimp over the end of the round ball. the accuracy couldnt get any better in my 45 long colt. center of a playing card at 25 yards. cheap and fun to shoot. also i would not be afraid to use this in a defensive situation. has good penetration also.

[Texantothecore]

I will be trying them in a Bond Derringer with 3fg bp. It should be a hoot. I shoot a lot of round ball in other guns and they work extremely well.

I may very well use it as a defensive load as they have been very effective for many years.

[Don Purcell]

4bisley5, I recently tried a John Linebaugh suggested load of 13 grains of HS-6 under a 300 grain WFN. Easy shooting load with plenty of thump and accurate.

[4bisley5]

4bisley5, I recently tried a John Linebaugh suggested load of 13 grains of HS-6 under a 300 grain WFN. Easy shooting load with plenty of thump and accurate.

I've got some of the WFN and LFN coming in to try. I'll have to take pictures the next time at the range but when I push that RCBS 270 at the upper limits it'll do a solid 1 1/4 at 25yd.
I have some HS 6 that I've not tried yet. I'll give that a go.

As far as dimensions go, Dave Clements built a perfect revolver. Throats at .4525 and barrel .451 end to end. No constrictions, 11 degree forcing cone, beautiful trigger. I basically got the full package.

I didn't mention but when I shoot my Hornady 250 grain XTP pushed with 9.0 grains of Power Pistol, it almost keeps in one hole if I do my part.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with everything but the keith getting worse with larger calibers and speeds. Take this 270 bullet. In all my guns it shoots poorly below 1100 and best at about 1250. I have true keith designs for my 500 and 475 and both shoot great at low and high velocity as good as any of my lfns for those guns. I'm sure that's somewhat due to the fact they are custom guns and built right. that to me is the trick to a kieth. It is not forgiving and if your gun isn't right on in dimentions a lfn is probably going to do better due to a smoother transition into the forcing cone. But even in a marginal gun in my experience the harder there casted (ill say that about any cast bullet) the faster there pushed (if sufficiently hard) the better they shoot. The main problem with most peoples experience with keith bullets is there not using a keith bullet. There just aren't to many real kieths out there. even the ones that once were have changed slightly over the years and aren't true to keiths design anymore.

One thing for sure is the swc is a finiky girl. You can take a great shooting swc and change it so slightly your eyes cant even notice and turn a great bullet into a turd (and I consider the 270 a turd) . If I kept them all id have about a drawer full of group buy molds that were suppose to be exact copys of good swc designs that weren't copied exactly and are turds. This seems especially true with the 45 colt and swcs. I think some of it is most 45s are twisted for heavier bullets compared to 44s and have been told by guys that know more then me that most 45 colts for some reason come with shallower rifling then 44s normaly due and everyone knows the 45s rep for being out of spec with overly tight or completely sloppy chambers. Just not a good recipe for accuracy with a swc.

You want good accuracy with a swc the cast it hard, lube it with a good lube, size properly for your gun and shoot it out of your 44 mag or special. Even then you might have to try a couple designs before you find one your gun likes. But I'm kind of with 44 man in if you don't like fooling around or chasing loads just get a gas checked lfn. That is about guaranteed to shoot in anything at least acceptably.

I am the hard boolit guy, at least 20-22 BHN in revolvers.
With a Keith, I only started to get accuracy using a fast powder, Unique and 231, when I got to 28-30 BHN. As Doug mentioned, keeps the shoulder from smearing off at the cone.
Fit is important and a lot of store bought boolits lack fit. Hard boolits do not cause leading.
Use a soft lube, I prefer Felix over anything else. Best lubes will have lanolin for "sticky."
If I need softer for hunting I cast a portion of the nose softer so the drive is still hard.
As you go up in caliber and power, the Keith gets worse and worse.

[44man]

I agree, most have some change, never got any to work in the .475 BFR's. They were cast in custom molds but no idea who designed them.
I never liked the one huge GG either, much prefer two or three smaller ones.
My original Flat top shot the 429421 very good but after years of Ruger's I think they were fit up better back then. Same as the old 27 I had, fit better then any newer one. I could hit 1" targets at 100 with the old Thompson 358156 HP. I never, ever seen any .357 that could match it.
The original 29's were amazing too.

[frank505]

Thank you Lloyd, and I'll just keep shooting my Keith's as much as I can. Wish you'd come visit again, we could go prairie dog blasting. We kill them at a hundred yards with 45s and Keith bullets. From what I've read, it can't be done. We should meet over at Jeff's in north Dakota, he's got lots more dogs to blast.

[Lloyd Smale]

boy id love to frank. Problem is after 3 back surgerys and just having my ankle replaced the long drive just isn't in the cards. Heck I could even swing by great falls mt and see my sister. Id love to see Jeff too. Probably isn't anyone that's done more actual cast bullet testing then Jeff. Hes a walking encyclopedia on how bullets fly and especially 45 colts. Still remember his bullet flight movie at the seminar one year. it was an eye opener. To see those wfns taking off like they were ricochets. Probably isn't any two guys in the country that have slung more lead then you and jeff other then maybe Al and hes just not up to it anymore. Even my shooting has slowed a lot. Used to shoot all winter but anymore the cold just gets to me to much. Hope you and the wife are doing well pal! Ill say one last thing. Frank was the owner of Mt. Baldy bullets and although he doesn't post here much. Sit up and listen when he does.

[LAH]

I always listen to Frank.