Oddball blackpowder shotgun, anyone recognize this design?

[JonnyReb]

I was at a customers house today and we got talking about antique guns..he ask me if I knew anything about them and I said "a little bit". Turned out not. He hauls out a trash bag with a gun in it and pulls it out. Its an exquisite little double barrel shotgun. Is a 20 ga with Damascus barrels, engravings from front to back and appeared to be unfired or long ago fired and put in a closet for 100 years since.. It has a wedgepin but also had a lever on the triggerguard that broke the action and allowed loading shells. Its hammers were both exposed and had twin lockback actions, there is no firing pins in the breech, no nipples and only 2 notches in the barrels right under where the hammers hit to give a clue of how it detonates a primer? Its a ladies or child's gun apparently, very tiny and I actually thought it might be a high end antique non firing model of some type until I figured out how to break the action and realized it was real. I thought it was a muzzleloader until I looked under the hammers. There were no apparent proof marks on it, nothing at all except for a few foreign words on the barrels...french possibly but I really don't know and stupidly I didn't take pics of them. I do have a few pics of the action but my camera on the cellphone takes foggy pics at best.

I may go back and eventually make an offer on it in which case I'll document better what it is, but just for starters, does anyone recognize this action or know what kind of shells it would have taken? Thanks!

[dominicfortune00]

From the notches in the barrels, I bet it is a French pinfire shotgun.

The shells had a pin perpendicular to the case head that would fire the primer when pushed towards the shell by the hammer on a pinfire gun.

Or when dropped and landed on the floor with the pin pointing straight down.

I believe that some people reload pinfire shells, so a search on that may help you decide if you want to get it or not.

Good Luck!

[JonnyReb]

I'd say you are exactly right Dominic, I googled those pinfires and I've found multiple shotguns that look very similar, also found suppliers who reload for them. I'll be making a bid for this one tomorrow, thanks so much for the help! J

[RED333]

WOW, now that is a something.

[bedbugbilly]

I also agree on it being a pinfire . . . French or Belgium. Looks like a nice shotgun!

As an added thought . . . if you get to look at it again, check out the proof marks. Then go to "proof house" (google) and by comparing, it might help you to date it.

[Mk42gunner]

Proof marks are probably under the forearm.

While I am sure there were some very nice pinfire shotguns made; the idea of carrying several rounds with a protruding firing pin already against the primer gives me the willies.

Robert

[JonnyReb]

Hey thanks for the replies. It IS a somethin ain't it Red? In all my years of gun nutting I never even knew there was a pinfire shotgun. The revolvers i'd come across occasionally, the shotgun never. Dominics cue sent me looking and darned if there wernt a bazillion of em out there but I never knew it. This one has so many hours of labor in it I can't help but to appreciate it.

Billy I hope to get the chance to further check it out, I've found them in similar condition now for 500-1000.00, a few are double that but this isn't one of those. I'll make a fair offer to its owner tomorrow and if all goes well I will be taking a forearm off soon to look for those proofmarks.

Robert, if I am so lucky to procure this old gun, and even luckier to source reloadable shells for it, I absolutely promise not to drop a bunch of those shells in a pocket For an afternoon dovehunt.

[Wayne Smith]

Proof marks will most likely be above the water table, not under the forearm. Take off the barrels and turn them over, you will see the proof marks.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It's a pinfire all right, and while the pictures are far from conclusive, might be a very well-made one. The great majority were French and Belgian, although the chances of its being British are increased by its being a 20ga. Until fairly recently the 16ga was the most popular in France, and the 20 lagged a long way behind the 12. It was a very short-lived system as a first-class shotgun, although cheap ones, like pinfire revolvers, continued to be made in Belgium well into the centrefire era. None of them were made for smokeless powder, and while it is possible that some equivalent loads were made with smokeless, a cartridge with a hole in it rules out high pressures.

Yours looks like quite a useful firearm. The barrel looks thinner at the rear end than even black powder centrefires would become, but it isn't weakened by the hole for the ejector leg or legs, and the action body isn't weakened by cocking levers or the mortice for front-action locks, or by the slots for boxlock parts. One of the most remarkable shooting feats was the killing of 1070 driven grouse by Lord Walsingham on his own moor in 1888. Of the four guns he used, one was a Purdey pinfire of 1865, rebarrelled as a centerfire. Another gun had a barrel of Whitworth fluid pressed steel, and Walsingham claimed that the report had a ringing note which gave him a headache, but damascus didn't.

I would be surprised if nobody in the US makes pinfire shotgun cases, but this is the nearest I can find, in France and only for 16 and 20ga. They wouldn't be a difficult lathe-turning project, but I don't believe you could simply remove the rim from Magtech centrefire cases, since I think the rim is hollow.

http://www.hc-collection.com/PBSCCat...ame=Lefaucheux pinfire Cartdriges

If this is any good to anyone, it is likely that you could get them into the US without too much trouble. I bought Magtech 24ga from Buffalo Arms although they wouldn't be allowed to export rifle or pistol cases.

[Mk42gunner]

Okay, in spite of the idea giving me the willies, I would have to try a few times if it were mine. I don't think I would be taking on a rough terrain hunting trip, but a few rounds with smooth walking might be okay.

I have read an article in one of the old Gun Digest or the like about making pinfire shells from modern shotgun shells. I don't know which one, but I think I still have it.

My problem when I go looking for a specific article in one of those old books is I keep getting distracted. Too many "Gee that sounds interesting" articles, and the next thing I know its three hours later and I still haven't found what I was originally looking for.

Robert

[Col4570]

Yes it is a pinfire,the cases can be made from modern plastic ones as followsL:- the spent primer in the case can be left in as a seal,Drill a small hole in the side of the cartridge head large enough to take a piece of small dia welding rod.Carefully place a Percussion Cap on its side in proximity to the hole put the piece of W Rod inside the Cap,pour in your Blackpowder then a Card a Fibre Wad,another Card,1ounce of Shot and an overshot card,either Crimp or Roll turnover the Case mouth depending on chamber length.The Rod should be sticking out sufficiently enough for the hammer to knock it down,alittle dab of superglue will keep the pin in place .Caution Pinfire cartridges if dropped can go off if the pin comes in contact with the ground.

[JonnyReb]

Fantastic info in every post, thanks so much to all of you for taking the time to post your knowledge. I learned a lot from these posts and reading up on the design, I'm amazed at the time period these guns were made during. While much of the world was still stuffing front loaders there were folks utilizing cartridges commonly...good stuff. Great info to concerning rolling my own. Very cool.

Got so busy with work yesterday I didn't have a chance to make the call/offer but I will do so today. I don't doubt the owner may have to mull it over a bit but in the end I think this one will be coming home with me.

[Col4570]

On the subject of gun design,in the day it was common for Muzzleloaders,Pinfires and centrefires all to be in the field together.Some shooters clinging to methods that had been successful to them whilst other shooters went for the latest state of the art guns.at that time there was always an overlap until the latest design caught on.Of course there was also an economic factor when considering a new purchase.

[wills]

http://hlebooks.com/pinfire/cal16-01.htm

[toot]

BOB HAYLEY, AT- 211 NORTH RIVER, PO BOX 889, SEYMOUR, TX.76380. PHONE-(940) 888-3352. HE MAKES PIN FIRE AMOUNITION. give him a call and leave a message, he will return your call. he is a great guy.