Ball and patch or real bullet on deer

[trapper9260]

I have been shooting ball and patch in my 50cal side hammer and I have a hard time to have the deer to drop where I hit them, that is also in the neck.I lost 2 deer this season and that is use of ball and patch and lost some in the past also.Would real bullet or mini do a better job of drop the deer ?I know shot placement is the main thing and I been doing that.Just that for the years I did not notice it till this year.My brother said I have been lost of too many and should go with sabots, but since I also have some real bullets.Any ideas from you all.Of what will work the best?

[Edward]

Try behind the shoulder ,heart /lung area your patched ball is like my arrow and the neck is not a vital area .The most /largest needed organs are located behind the shoulder ,not in front of it . If you shoot them there it is the best percentage shot and it works most all the time even with the patched round ball which I also shoot . It is also taught in most hunter/education classes . Good luck hunting!

[trapper9260]

I have shot one the start of this season that was where you stated it was the first one and it drop then was flopping and then got back up the left and could not find it.I have shot them in the neck in the past and drop not far from less then 10 yards to about 40 yards on the normal.Also shot them in the lung area where you stated. I have shot them from less then 10 yards away to 120 yards and sometime I got them and shot where you stated.I end up got the 120 yard shot .The 2 this season was from 40 the first to 20 yards.the first was where you stated and then 2nd was the neck area.one the first did not left and blood trail and the 2nd left some but stop after.I use a Navy Arms Hawkins 50 cal. side hammer.I also have a CVA Deer stalker 50 cal. side hammer but have not use it much.

[rfd]

yes, shot placement is always important, particularly with small .50 caliber ml. i'd probably want a .54 an up when using a prb, that's one reason why i have a .58 musket.

imo when it comes to hunting for hogs, deer and other such critters, the extra heavy 320 grain lee REAL .50 bullet is the better route to take as it packs far more energy than a patched 180 grain .50 round ball. if that 320 don't take down a deer right quick with decent shot placement, i'd be purty surprised.

[swathdiver]

Well, what powder and powder charge are you using? Are you lubricating the patch and if so, with what? A .50 Caliber round ball is plenty enough for white tail deer anywhere and most other game in North America.

[451 Pete]

Adding just a bit to what has been said above, keep in mind that what your barrel will shoot accurately is determined by the twist rate of that barrel. A slow twist, like a 1-60 is geared to shooting a patch and ball where a fast twist rate will stabilize a longer projectile like a sabot or bullet. If it will not shoot accurately then hunting with it is not an option.

Pete

[bob208]

I have been dropping deer with a .45 round ball. it is like others have said you have to hit them right. the neck is not a good play unless you can break the spine. more power and bigger bullets does not make up for poor shooting.

[gnoahhh]

I have been dropping deer with a .45 round ball. it is like others have said you have to hit them right. the neck is not a good play unless you can break the spine. more power and bigger bullets does not make up for poor shooting.

Bingo. I killed one on Saturday at around 40 yards with a .45 round ball, driven by 60 grains FFFg, with one shot in the neck just forward of the shoulder. Broke his spinal column and he dropped right there. Done. A lot of people ballyhoo the neck shot (and I'm one of them) but it is admittedly a tricky shot. A ball in the neck likely won't kill quickly (nor will a .30-06 even) unless the spinal column is hit. Tear the heck out of muscles/trachea/esophagus and you will guarantee the death of the deer, just not right there and likely a day or so later at the place of its choosing. The spinal column is a darned small target, and one needs to know exactly how it lies inside of a deer's neck.

The safest target is through the shoulder or right behind the shoulder blade into the heart/lung area. It will probably run a ways, but not so far that you won't find it laying there ready for gutting.

[rodwha]

I had been shooting deer in the neck with a .270 Win and had all drop DRT. Now I have a .50 cal Lyman Derrstalker that I'll likely be using a PRB or 320 grn REAL. I wondered about the neck shot as I doubt a muzzleloader projectile will have the hydrostatic shock that modern high power rifle bullets do.

The vitals are a for sure thing, though a bit of tracking may be necessary.

[OverMax]

My observations.
The small the caliber the more accurate one has to be in making their initial first shot. I shoot a 45 p/B and have never lost a deer due to my ability to either break a back spine or putting a ball into the lower neck area thus again breaking their neck bone. Going to a larger caliber naturally leaves a larger wound for better bleed out when having to make those so so I hope it hits there distant kind'a shots. On the other hand. What many black powder enthusiasts don't realize. Unlike modern. Best not hurry a shot. Or one often can plan on doing some tracking when they do.

[Omnivore]

I've never lost a deer hit with a 50 cal round ball. I've had to track a deer once or twice, but never lost one.

Unless you upset the central nervous system, they're going to run when hit. The heart/lung cavity is a much larger target than the spine, and is a sure kill. If your goal is DRT, then you're thinking wrong, says I.

if you are sure to hit the base of the skull, or the spine farther back in the neck, then go ahead and take that shot. You'd better have practiced and practiced so you KNOW that that's a sure shot on a three inch or smaller target. Otherwise you'd best stay with the heart/lung cavity. Know the deer's anatomy. If you have a side profile, put a ball through both shoulders. It'll destroy both lungs and substantially disable the mechanical ability to run. A heart shot is best, as you'll usually not destroy any other meat, but a deer with a blown heart will still run. If you don't trust your ability to track, you might should back up, think again, start over; go hunting with someone skilled in tracking.

I'm not convinced that a REAL bullet would do any better than a round ball. The ball typically just drills a half inch hole all the way through. If it hits the shoulder it'll shatter bone and then pass through. What's a REAL bullet going to do other than that? It'll hit at a lower velocity, most likely, and it will penetrate farther because of it's greater mass, but since a ball will typically pass clean through, what more penetration do you want? On the other hand, if you find a load for the REAL that shoots well, there'd be no reason not to use it. Use whatever load you have most confidence in, regarding hitting what you aim for.

[Good Cheer]

Trapper,
Are you shooting a TC, GM or other make of barrel that you really trust the breech?
The reason I ask is why not double tap and cut down the chances of a runaway?
That bigger is better and two holes are better than one is a for sure thing on neck shots. And better than any one boolit of the same diameter.
So, if you can get good enough accuracy my vote would be "loadin' fer bar" before using the REAL. Not saying I got a dang thang against REAL's either.

Besides, it's traditional, it's historically correct.
And to avoid unnecessary suffering, it's even politically correct (where'd that spittoon go?).
You just caint get no better than that!

[Toymaker]

Patch and ball has dropped them where they were hit since 1989. 54 caliber CVA Hawkins with 65 grains FFg. Never had a shot over 50 yards. Hit them in the shoulder taking out that leg and driving bone and bullet into the heart/lungs. Down and done.

[rodwha]

Out of curiosity does one seat one ball and then the other or both together after the first is started? Seems the way I understood it was one had a ball loaded and were a bear crossed an additional ball was set down the bore.

Any chance, without air able to escape so easily, that the second ball would "bounce" off of the first?

[gnoahhh]

Huh? I never heard of such a thing as a viable hunting load. I tried it once with two balls (and a reduced powder charge) and with each shot neither ball from each discharge hit anywhere close to where I was aiming. I'll take accuracy over multiple questionable hits any day.

[trapper9260]

Ok I have run a tight patch down the barrel and for a complete turn if I get it right is 24 1/4" I had mark the ram rod with a tight patch and push it to the bottom of the barrel and then mark the rod at the end of the barrel and a mark for the front sight and then pull slow upward and when the line where the front sight I made is in line .I take a tape and see how long it is and this is what I got ,the 24 1/4" ,the total inside lenght of the barrel is 25".50 cal..I hope this will help for you all that is trying to help me and thank you in advance for the help.I know alot say about the twist so that is what I did to see what was the complete turn on it is and let you all know on it to try to give you more information.

[roverboy]

No offense to round ball fans but, I like heavier conicals. I've used patched round balls but, like conicals better. By the way, the 2 round balls in one load used to be a recommended load by T/C.

[Omnivore]

A 24" twist is for conicals. A round ball twist is 60" to 70". The compromise twist is 48". You may get decent results with round-ball in a 24" twist barrel, but is less likely. Sidelocks don’t commonly have the fast, 24” twist (in-lines often do) but I suppose anything is possible. The 24" twist gun is built for heavy sabot loads or full diameter conicals heavier than about 300 grains. My 48" twist Lyman shoots 300+ grain conicals OK, but without a bunch more experimentation I prefer patched ball. Your mileage will vary.

Once you get up to fifty caliber, I'd say the best load for deer is that which shoots most accurately for you, all other considerations being distant secondary ones.

You have to spend some quality time testing different loads for accuracy before you take to the hunting fields. You need a set-up that you can trust absolutely, so if you miss your aiming point you know it was your fault. Right before hunting season is no time to start asking about the right load, I'm sorry to say. You should have that figured out by mid summer, so you have some time to practice with that load before hunting season.

Also keep in mind that the shot which counts is that one shot you take from a cold, clean bore. Depending on your rifle and specific load, your Point Of Impact (POI) may shift considerably when shooting a warm, fouled bore. Therefore I have had to be very careful to treat my barrel bore just so, for every shot, when evaluating a load or sighting in. You may find a load that shoots to the same POI regardless, whether it’s the first shot or the tenth, without cleaning in between, but don't count on it.

Haven’t tried double ball. You’d certainly have to seat them at the same time, or the trapped air would be a problem. It seems like more of a stunt than a valuable load, but not having tried it, what do I know? Maybe it’s the bloody bee’s knees and I’ve been missing out on something wonderful, but I doubt it. So you have two balls, each of which are going to be traveling slower than a single ball (two 50 cal balls is about 360 grains payload), and the two balls will certainly diverge as they leave the barrel. Upon impact, each ball will hit with less energy than a single ball would have. That would make it an effective close-range load for self defense, I suppose, but not likely to be useful at longer distances. I could be totally wrong; let's see someone's 100 yard, double-ball targets as evidence.

[rfd]

i agree - 24" fast twist is for bullets and typically not at all good with prb's.

[trapper9260]

I had tested it before the season in the summer after I had the front sight change due to it broke on me and I had alway shot ball and patch.I only shot it with one ball.i always went for the vital spot behind the front leg and got them down right away and not other times.I have take them down with a neck shot in the past also with the same gun.The 120 yard shot I took a buck down with the same gun.but not like I was hopen for. Now this year for all that have happened that is why i am asking now about this and looking to learn from it also.thank you.