How safe is a Remington Rolling Block 1901 in 7mm Mauser

[terryt]

Hi:

I was looking at a Remington Rolling Block Model1901 in 7mm Mauser today at the LGS.

It is in excellent shape.

I have been told it is not safe to shot smokeless powder loads in these guns. Not even if you keep pressure down.
I was told that it was do to headspacing because the chambers in RB's are too short.

I have know several people who have them and none of them have ever had any trouble.

I want to buy the gun and would like to know what I am getting into.

Thanks,

Terryt

[Pavogrande]

I have heard they can have excess headspace --
I had one many moons ago but at that time 7x57 was really not very obtainable
so cases were made from GI 06 brass which was about $2-3 per hundred --
Since the cases were formed to fit the chamber headspace was not an issue -
You can do the same, make up a moderate load, seat the bullet to engage the rifling and
you have a fire formed case -- neck size and reload --
my ha-penny

[Ben]

terryt :

because the chambers in RB's are too short.


If the chamber was too short the breech would not close on a loaded round.
If the chamber is too deep, then you'd have excessive headspace.

[Nobade]

Just like Pavogrande says - make the brass to fit the chamber and just close. Don't use commercial 7X57 brass unless you fireform it with COW first. Shoot reasonable cast boolit loads in it, and it'll give you great service for many years.

-Nobade

[Mk42gunner]

How safe are they? I don't know for sure. I have read that the chamber dimensions for the 7x57 changed sometime between when Remington made these rifles and when SAAMI came into existence.

If I had one, I would go the fireform and cast boolit load route.

Robert

[John Taylor]

In 1897 the #5 Remington came out for smokeless powder and many were chambered in 7X57. The cartridge was re-designed in 1913 with a spire point bullet that was a little lighter and much faster. I don't have anything that shows the pressure of the early round but the later factory loads are a bit warm for the rolling block. Reloads should be kept down to about 42,000 psi to be on the safe side, modern 7x57 is loaded to 51,000. I'm not saying you will blow one up with factory loads but some have head space issues and the brass will not last.

[Outpost75]

I had one of these as a kid back in the 1960s, and we had buckets of old US Ctg. Co. and Remington-UMC FMJ ammo with cracked necks which we got cheap. Some of the ammo went bang, and what didn't we pulled the bullets and salvaged the powder and formed new brass from .30-'06, or 8mm Mauser. Headspace on all the ones we tried was about 0.010 to 0.020 way too loose and you would get head separations unless you left enough of the 8mm neck as a false shoulder for crush-up to headspace. We had best luck cutting off '06 brass and setting up the die so that rounds chambered just a bit snug, then when setting up to reload we pinched a 0.010 shim between the shell holder and die body at the top of the stroke to avoid setting the shoulder back.

On guns we had chamber necks were waaaaay loose and we never reamed case necks, but your mileage may vary.
We always used .30-30 data in the 7mm with 170-175-grain bullets, and never got into any trouble. The old guns shot better at 200 and 300 yards on the old Army A target than we could.

[Bob Busetti]

Had a 1910 model. Made cases to fit chamber. It shot Remington 140 gr. factory loads very well.

[koger]

I guess I just got lucky, had one in pristine condition, shot factory, Kynock surplus, all shot great and no issues!

[EDG]

A friend of mine had one and the chamber looked more like a 7X57 Ackley Improved.
His first round blew the case head, escaping gas blew the hammer back to full cock and the breech block opened leaving the case about halfway out of the chamber. The primer was stuck on the end of the firing pin. He made cases out of .270 brass that he could barely get the rolling block to close on. He had no further problems with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

[QUOTE=Outpost75;3392900]I had one of these as a kid back in the 1960s, and we had buckets of old US Ctg. Co. and Remington-UMC FMJ ammo with cracked necks which we got cheap. Some of the ammo went bang, and what didn't we pulled the bullets and salvaged the powder and formed new brass from .30-'06, or 8mm Mauser. Headspace on all the ones we tried was about 0.010 to 0.020 way too loose and you would get head separations unless you left enough of the 8mm neck as a false shoulder for crush-up to headspace. We had best luck cutting off '06 brass and setting up the die so that rounds chambered just a bit snug, then when setting up to reload we pinched a 0.010 shim between the shell holder and die body at the top of the stroke to avoid setting the shoulder back.

On guns we had chamber necks were waaaaay loose and we never reamed case necks, but your mileage may vary.
We always used .30-30 data in the 7mm with 170-175-grain bullets, and never got into any trouble. The old guns shot better at 200 and 300 yards on the old Army A target than we could.[/UOTE]

This is about what I have heard. I would agree with John Taylor on pressure limitations, but I don't believe it need be quite as limited as .30-30 loads in that larger case. It certainly wasn't intended for anything but smokeless.

EDG describes a source of accident which doesn't apply to most actions, with gas escape fro the primer unlocking the action. The fit of firing-pin to its hole might have been responsible, and should always be checked.

[shooter93]

Somewhere I have an article written on the Rolling block rifles and it mentions that there was a 7mm Spanish caliber that was slightly different from the standard 7x57 round. These guns...and I don't remember how many were produced....always "appear" to have a headspace problem when standard 7x57 ammo was fired in them. Once fired they were then just neck sized or dies made and no further problems were experienced. I'll try and find the article when I have a chance as it is one of those interesting stories that show up about the older guns.

[John Taylor]

Somewhere I have an article written on the Rolling block rifles and it mentions that there was a 7mm Spanish caliber that was slightly different from the standard 7x57 round. These guns...and I don't remember how many were produced....always "appear" to have a headspace problem when standard 7x57 ammo was fired in them. Once fired they were then just neck sized or dies made and no further problems were experienced. I'll try and find the article when I have a chance as it is one of those interesting stories that show up about the older guns.

The Spanish were using Mauser rifles, http://www.spanamwar.com/spanishmauser.htm

[atr]

I have a #5 RRB in 7x57 Mauser and have shot both jacketed and cast with it. I fire form the brass with the cast loads and use that brass for the jacketed rounds. Truth be told I don't shoot a lot of jacketed, but never had a problem when I did.
Make sure you wear glasses when shooting the RRB because if for any reason gas escapes it will do so through the firing pin hole in the breach block, and you will get it in your face.

and yes my icon picture is of my #5

[LWSTARKS]

I have one and just shoot cast in it. I've shot jacketed, but it just seemed to be too hot (signs on the empty) plus I get better accuracy from the cast.

[hickstick_10]

I have one of those rifles, shot plenty of federal 175 grain loads out of it, with no issue.
But thats just me and my gun.

[EDG]

I have read these tales also. I have an all original mint 1895 Chilean Mauser and the cartridge is the same as the modern round.

Somewhere I have an article written on the Rolling block rifles and it mentions that there was a 7mm Spanish caliber that was slightly different from the standard 7x57 round. These guns...and I don't remember how many were produced....always "appear" to have a headspace problem when standard 7x57 ammo was fired in them. Once fired they were then just neck sized or dies made and no further problems were experienced. I'll try and find the article when I have a chance as it is one of those interesting stories that show up about the older guns.

[Ed in North Texas]

I have read these tales also. I have an all original mint 1895 Chilean Mauser and the cartridge is the same as the modern round.

There are lots of theories, and outright dreams, about the 7mm Rollers. I use .270 brass to form my cases (because I don't have a .270 - O'Connor is rolling over about now) so the headstamp is "unique" and differentiated from the brass for my Brazilian 1908.

I suspect, with no proof whatsoever, that Remington cut these military contract rifles with slightly larger chambers because of the lesser extraction capability of the rolling block action compared to the Mauser bolt guns. The Rolling Block allowed Latin American countries with smaller treasuries to use the 7x57 cartridge, so popular with the Spanish speaking world, without the expense required to obtain Mauser design bolt guns.

Or I'm completely mistaken. Take your pick.

[superc]

Although it sounds silly, since Remington had by then switched to a steel appropriate for smokeless powder, several countries issued the cartridge only in a black powder variant. I read to mean a doubt existed as to strength even back then.

[John Taylor]

Run into the same types of stories about the old Martini. Many were converted to 303 British but were loaded with black or Cordite. It is not safe to fire modern smokeless ammo through the old Martini in 303. Some of the Remingtons were chambered in 30-03 which is the same size cartridge as the 30-06. I have been told that they were not safe but have never seen one chambered in that round. Found a list of chambers. Some are for the #1 and some for the #5.
.58 Berdan
.50-70
.50-45 Carbine
12.7×45mmR Pontificio
12.17×42 mm RF
12.17×44mmR
.45-70
.43 Spanish
.43 Egyptian
10.15×61mmR
8×58mmR
8×50mmR
.303 British
7.65×53mm Argentine
.30-40 Krag
7.62×54mmR
.30 Remington
7×57mm Mauser
6.5mm Daudeteau No. 12
.236 Remington
11 mm Danish

Various Target/Sporting/Hunting Calibers