A Place to discuss Sharps-Borchardt

[rak]

I recently purchased a Model 1878 Sharps Borchardt Saddle Ring Carbine and in my search to find info about my rifle I have found a vast amount of information on all Models of Sharps Except the Borchardt. Don't get me wrong there is some and it is informative but I couldnt find any thread dedicated to these amazing Guns .
So I thought I would start one
So here is the story on mine
According to Dr Labowskie (Sharps Records Holder) my gun shipped to H and D Folsom In St Louis Febuary 18 of 1879 .
I was glad to hear from the Doc that it had shipped originally from Sharps to just west of the Missippi river.
It is in good condition aside from the rear sight is not on it and it has a newer barrel band (I am looking for original replacements of these)
The action ,barrel bore and all other metal are in great shape as well as the markings that read Old Reliable and Borchardt Patent,Sharps Rifle Company, Bridgeport Conn. U.S.A.
According to Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms
Borchardts were manufactured from1878-1881 when Sharps shut down and the total quantity is aprox. 8,700 of the Borchardts with only
Aprox. 384 made in the Carbine Saddle ring configuration.
Aprox. 6,900 Military
Aprox. 215 Mid Ranges
Aprox.230 Long Ranges
Aprox. 62 Hunter's Rifle
Aprox. 89 Business Rifles
Aprox. 610 Sporting Rifles
and Aprox48 Officer's Rifles
Again this is just info out of Flayderman's Book by Norm Flayderman

It is an awsome piece of history and I am very proud to add it to my collection.
It is my hope that by starting this thread folks with info on these type rifles will emerge ,if not I can look forward to updating the thread myself in hopes of helping others that are searching out info on thiers.
Thanks for any and all input , Here is mine

[ole pizen slinger]

I believe the total number manufactured were about 22,000. I have a military Borchardt with a serial # 16925.
ole pizen slinger

[rak]

Thanks Ole PZ
I to have read that the number is 22,000 I believe and hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that 22,000 is the number of Sharps produced including the Express and Shuetzen models, yet the number of Borchardt Patents was 8700 like I said I am not sure of this and I will scan the info that I have out of Flaydermans Book and I will be getting a Sharps Book By Frank Sellers as I understand it has a lot of information as well
That is the reason I started this thread is to try to get better details on all of this
Hopefully Harry Eales will chime in as he has provided me with a lot of info in Private messages

Here is a copy and paste of the PM's from Harry (with his approval) Regarding My Borchardt and Borchardts in general,I only posted his side of the conversation so it might seem wierd but to me it is all relevent and good information.

Hello Rac,

Thanks for your PM. Your a lucky dog.lol.

According to the late Frank Sellers in his book Sharps Firearns, there were only 384 of these carbines made.

50 of these were sold to the state of Louisiana and were shiped on 25 April 1878. Most of the rest went West via the NY gun dealers of Schyler, Hartley and Graham. I imagine that over time those that have survived are now small in number. I have a book of sales records made to western outlets by Schyler, Hartley and Graham, In it are listed all the orders they shipped out west, it will take some going through to see if any are recorded and who they were shipped too and on what dates. I love investigating.

It's certainly a collectors item, even if it is in poor condition. Has yours any cartouches or other stamps on the stock? If it was one of the Louisiana contract weapons it would even have more value.

Whichever way you look at it, you have a scarce item and I can only recollect seeing one for sale in the past ten years. Sadly I don't have further details of what price it brought or who sold it. I'm glad you were able to get your carbine 'Lettered' it always adds to the value if you ever have to sell it. I think Dr Lobowskie charges a bit much, the previous owner of the records Dr. R. L. Moore, only charged half the current price. I suppose Labowski is trying to recoup some of the money he spent purchasing the records from Dr. Moore's Estate.

Good luck in your search for additional carbines, be aware that some full length military rifles were cut down to carbine size by their owners, these can quickly be spotted as they have different sights, no saddle ring and often a hole in the forend where the ram/cleaning rod used to be. Just out of interest your carbine originally sold or was priced at US $16.50 A slight rise in value has taken place since. lol.

Regards,

Harry

Hello Rac,


I have got through about half of my book or shipping records and have found several references to Borchardt Military rifles being shipped either as single items or by the case load, but nothing as yet for Borchardt Carbines.

S,H & G certainly shipped a lot of Sharps out west, including a lot of refurbished Civil War rifles and Carbines.

I'll keep looking though.
Your missing sight would have been the Richard S. Lawrence open rear rifle sight. Patented in 1859. This was fitted to many of the Borchardt Rifles, and earlier Sharps rifles and carbines, so you may be able to pick up an original if you place an Advert in as many Gun Forums as possible. Most Forums have a free For Sale/Wanted section. For the Patent details see:-

http://www.google.com/patents?id=qoh...&jtp=1#PPP1,M1

Be aware the patent drawings may differ slightly from the production item itself.

It's likely that the rear barrel band of a standard military Borchardt will fit your carbine. Factories didn't make additional parts for a rifle if they already had something they could use already at hand. The whittling away of the wood could have been done to make the replacement band fit. Again try advertising for a barrel band. There's likely to be a few people who have converted Military Borchardts to Long Range target rifles and who will have the old parts in their 'parts bin'.

Re, the hand carved number, try dusting a light coating of Talcum Powder over the markings and wipe away the surplus, that should highlight the markings, the powder will wipe or brush off without causing any harm.

Chase after the parts you need, respectful restoration with original parts won't harm your carbine at all.

I'll keep checking the records.

Catch you later,

Harry




Hello Rac,

The total of 22,000 Borchardts of all models is Frank Sellers information, he was a major collector of Sharps Firearms and spent years researching his information. It's a pity he died before he could improve on the first edition of his book. He probably knew more about Sharps Firearms than anyone else.

He researched the Factory Record books and other factory papers which were owned then by Dr. R.L.Moore. It's a pity that the model 1878 Borchardt wasn't better documented, but the factory had major financial problems and paying a clerk to keep the records up to date probably wasn't their top priority. Factory internal letters and memo's show that they were still assembling older side hammer models from their stocks of spare parts, re-barreling older weapons, indeed doing anything to get money into their coffers.

Please feel free to use any of my info on your thread.

Thanks for the info on how the rear barrel sight was fitted, much appreciated.

Regards,

Harry

A pic of the sight area

[rak]

Favorites in my collection

[madcaster]

A neighbor had one of these when I was in High School,i was impressed even in my younger days!

[Harry Eales]

Interesting to note that the Sharps Borchardt 'Long Range' rifle is priced at
$12,500 in excellent condition. Less than two months ago an example of this model (possibly the finest one in existance) sold for $50,000.00 at a public auction in Amoskeag. (Ex Ray Day Collection).

Harry

[rak]

Interesting to note that the Sharps Borchardt 'Long Range' rifle is priced at
$12,500 in excellent condition. Less than two months ago an example of this model (possibly the finest one in existance) sold for $50,000.00 at a public auction in Amoskeag. (Ex Ray Day Collection).

Harry

Wow ,I would love to have a couple of those lying around the house.LOL

Harry can you elaborate more on the count of Sharps Borchardts. The information is confusing as noted earlier in this thread by ole pizen slinger Some information has the number 22,000 and as he pointed out the serial number range also indicates more.
Is the number confusion due to the fact that there are 8700 Borchardt Patents and then there are 13,300 of other sharps ( not Borchardt ) variants?
Thanks Harry
and
Thanks for posting Madcaster

[Harry Eales]

Hello Rac,

The method of serial numbering the Borchardts is confusing and seems to follow no set pattern. The serial numbers appear to jump around all over the place. No variant of the military rifle appears to have consecutive serial numbers.

For example the 1878 Mid Range Target rifle of which only 246 were made have serial no's as low as 226, then they jump too 7,048 and then to 17,564, These numbers are from surviving specimens. Similar jumps in serial no's can be found in all the 1878 Borchardt variants.

The only way I think that this can be explained is as follows

The Sharps Borchardt was designed primarily as a military rifle. Sharps had made their fortune by supplying very large numbers of rifles to the Military of not only the US but to other countries over several decades. There is little doubt that they hoped the 1878 military model would also sell in large numbers.

It is reasonable then, to suppose, that the production line would consist of making actions in the military configuration and that at some stage in production serial numbers would be applied, presumably in a consecutive manner.

However, when a special order for a particular variant model came in, it is likely that it was made from the basic military receiver, just taken off the production line when needed. It would be far simpler just to modify the basic receiver, than to tool up to produce actions with only slightly different configurations. Sharps had for some years run the equivelent of a 'Custom Gun Shop' in which these special order rifles were made. Just using an action pulled off the production line whenever a special order came in, would account for the great differences in the serial numbering of each of the Borchardt variants.

Strangely Borchardt serial no 0. wasn't a military rifle, it was a custom Long Range target rifle. The 1878 model appeared at a time when the famous Creedmoor long range rifle competitions were taking place. The 1874 sidehammer Sharps rifle had already established a formidable reputation in Long Range target shooting and there is little doubt that American marksmen had high hopes for the new Borchardt design with it's faster lock time.

Sharps had a problem however, target rifles built on the military Borchardt action couldn't make the weight requirments under the competition rules of that time which was a maximum weight of 10lbs.

To lighten the receiver additional machining had to be carried out, the front end of the receiver was recontoured on the top and bottom, the side panels were milled out, internally metal was removed beneath the barrel reveiver ring. The breechblock had metal removed from the underside of the firing pin spring housing, and the stockbolt was drilled through along its length making it tube like.

The recontouring of the exterior of the action and the elegant looking side panels added considerably to the overall appearance of the action that appealed to many shooters and these features were used on other 1878 models modified from the basic military action.

Sadly the factory records for the Borchardt are fragmented and incomplete, but it is known that the 1878 model production started at serial no. 0., and serial numbers in the 19,500 + range are known. The numbers of each variant of the 1878 Sharps given by Sellers in his book Sharps Firearms may well be just those which can be accounted for from the factory records, these may well represent the minimum number of each variant produced.

I know of at least one Borchardt Long Range rifle that is 100% genuine that cannot be traced in the factory records, if one exists there may well be others in all variants.

Sadly Mr Sellers is no longer with us, I have little doubt he could have answered a lot of the questions being asked today.

Harry

[Harry Eales]

In a previous post I mentioned that the sum of US$ 50,000.00 was paid for a Borchardt Long Range target rifle. I have attached some photographs of this particular rifle. Enjoy.
Click on each thumbnail to enlarge it. Then when the enlargement appears click on it again to enlarge it further still.
The detail is magnificent.

Harry

[rak]

Wow Harry that is awsome! Thank You so much for all of the information and input on this thread. It has already become a wealth of information and I look forward to more and more.
Your Passion for these rifles is again amazingly admirable
Thanks Again.

[waksupi]

Harry, what can you tell me about the previous history of that particular rifle? I believe I may know a few things about it. PM if you wish.

[Harry Eales]

Harry, what can you tell me about the previous history of that particular rifle? I believe I may know a few things about it. PM if you wish.

Hello Waksupi,

Sadly I lost all the information I had on this rifle, together with many of my Borchardst rifle pictures in a recent virus attack that corrupted my files

All I know at present is, that it was a part of the Ray Day Rifle Collection that was sold at the Amoskeag Auction on the 29th March 2008. Ray Day lived in California and owned some of the finest single shot rifles ever made in the USA.

I think it would be of interest to others if you could post what information you have here, then folks can match the information to the pictures.

Harry

[Harry Eales]

Borchardt set triggers.

As originally conceived, the Borchardt Rifle was not intended to be fitted with a set trigger. However, due to a demand from shooters, Hugo Borchardt was asked to design a set trigger mechanism that could be fitted into the existing action.

As one of the selling points of the rifle was the automatically applied safety catch, a design had to be conceived that permitted the retention of the safety.

The design Borchardt came up with was ingenious, but not particularly successful.
The trigger was 'set' by pushing forward the rear facing 'trigger' which was under a strong spring pressure, until the mechanism engaged the trigger (the amount of engagement could be adjusted by a set screw). The safety catch was then released and a light touch on the trigger released the setting device which then acted as a 'knock off' and which hit the sear bar a heavy blow which in turn released the firing pin.

Shooters were not particularly happy with this design as on firing the tip of the setting trigger shot backwards pinching the trigger finger of the shooter. Many of the none military actions were modified to take the set trigger. When a set trigger mechanism was not ordered the extended slot in front of the trigger was covered by a blanking plate pinned in position. A picture of the set trigger mechanism is attached.

The rifle pictured is a Military action slightly modified, perhaps a special order item, that was fitted with the set trigger mechanism, note the serial no is in the 18,000 range.

Harry

[rak]

Very Interesting Harry,I am glad mine does not have that

Here is the body of Text that I recieved in my factory letter

[Harry Eales]

Hello Rac,

Your lucky, I know of several people who have Borchardts who just cannor get them 'lettered'. It appears that only about one in three Borchardts can be 'lettered'.

You should keep your eyes open for the reloading kits Sharps supplied, you may have to buy them seperately, but they would add to the value of your Carbine should you ever want to dispose of it.

Harry

[rak]

Thanks Harry I certainly will keep an eye out for them.
What do you suppose was in the "kit" or what exactly did the Kit consist of and would it have been in a special case or bag?

[Harry Eales]

Hello Rac,

As you will appreciate the handloaders of the late 1800's didn't have the precision made re-loading presses that are available today.

The Sharps Rifle Co made and sold several tools to assist the shooter/ hunter/ marksman to reload his cartridge cases, wherever he was. These were a necessity on the plains where many hunted and gunshops were virtually none-existant. The tools sold could be purchased seperately.

All steel bullet molds were made of the scissor type, these had a clipper on the end of the tool to cut off the sprue after the bullet was dropped from the mold. These came in various bullet weights and calibres.

Cap awls were needed to remove the early Berdan primers from the cases, although these were replaced by de-capper re-capping tool during the last two years the company was in operation.

Wad cutters in various calibres were supplied to cut wads from card or felt.

Thin metal plates 3/16" thick with a number of holes drilled in them were supplied so that wax lube discs could be poured and then pressed out when cold.

Followers were made to press wads and lube discs squarely into the case.

Shell reducing punches and dies (called case sizers today).

Bullet seating dies were available to press the bullets into the case to the correct depth, and a shell crimper was available.

Powder chargers in various weights were available attached to a handle so that powder could be scooped up in the measure, a knife blade or spatular would be scraped over the top level and remove any excess powder.

For cleaning rifles without a ramrod a Thong and Brush was sold, better known as bore snakes or pull throughs today. The thong was fed through the barrel from the breech and the spiral bristle brush was pulled through the barrel to remove fouling.

Even powder 'drop tubes' were sold.

Most of these items came in cardboard boxes, few of which have survived.

Not all the tools were made by the Sharps rifle Co, some were contracted out to other manufacturers such as E. Remington & Sons and the Bridgeport Gun Inpliment Co. This firm bought all the reloading tooling from Sharps in 1881 and continued to supply them long after the Sharps Factory closed it's doors.

All these tools are covered in Frank Sellers book Sharps Firearms. This book is out of print but appears regularly on the second hand book market. To obtain a copy try:-
www.abebooks.com
They usually have a few up for sale.

EDIT. I have just checked the above book website, they have 7 copies shown, ranging from $60.50 to $120.00 from different bookshops.

Harry

[rak]

Wow Harry
As usual you come thru with the most detailed answers anyone could ever hope for .Thank you again so much for your contributions to this thread. I am buying the Sharps book by Frank Sellers Today
I am confident that anyone searching for information on the awsome firearms will be well pleased to find what has acumulated here.
Thanks Again

Edited to say
I just ordered the book

[AkMike]

How does one get ahold of Dr Labowskie for info an a Borchardt? I'd be interested in siome history of mine.

[Harry Eales]

How does one get ahold of Dr Labowskie for info an a Borchardt? I'd be interested in siome history of mine.

Hello Mike,
I hope you are well. The contact details you need are below.

Richard J. Labowskie, M.D.
4613 Osage Ave.
Philadelphia, Pa 19143

Ph 215-748-1376

I believe that a 'Letter' will cost you approx US$ 200.00, though I stand to be corrected. Dr.Labowskie may give you any info he has over the phone (have a paper and pen handy).

The Sharps 1878 records are very poor with approx only one in three serial numbers recorded. Good luck.

Harry