What should you call REAL black powder?

[dragon813gt]

And, by the way ...

I didn't see Wilco posting in this thread.

[quickdraw66]

Taxes and morals? LMAO!!!!

[montana_charlie]

I didn't see Wilco posting in this thread.

As it happens, you may be right ...

[dromia]

As god is no longer with us perhaps this thread could get back on topic.

[oldred]

Thanks to the mods, I and I am sure a LOT of others here greatly appreciate that.

[Avenger442]

So back to my previous question.
I'm new to the black powder shooting. What are the main differences and disadvantages/advantages of using a black powder substitute?

[country gent]

One thing Ive noticed with subs is the fouling seems harder and as or more corrosive than black powders. Soap and water, windex with vinegar, I have been using windex multi surface also netralizes and washes black powder fouling out quick and easy. Some of the subs Ive used Show corrosion a couple days after a thourgh cleaning even. A lot use smokeless "duplication" loads instead of the subs also. I light smokless charge to give the same velocity and pressure as black powder can work out well also

[oldred]

My question would be why do you want to use a sub? If for a cap&ball pistol or non cartridge firearm then light smokeless loads would not be a choice and a sub makes sense but if it's for an old original BP cartridge gun of questionable strength even some of the subs are more powerful than BP so real BP is a much better and safer choice even for those. Some BP cartridge guns such as the Trapdoor rifles have been loaded and shot with smokeless loads for many years so even some of the older originals would be safe with the proper smokeless load, point being a low pressure smokeless load is often a better choice than any of the subs in cartridges due to the fact it can be loaded to BP pressures with none of the problems of obtaining it or the fouling and corrosion associated with either a sub or BP. If the goal is "for the BP experience" then sorry you just won't get that with a sub! The subs look, load, shoot and even smell different so they are neither like shooting smokeless or real BP.

[quickdraw66]

My question would be why do you want to use a sub? If for a cap&ball pistol or non cartridge firearm then light smokeless loads would not be a choice and a sub makes sense but if it's for an old original BP cartridge gun of questionable strength even some of the subs are more powerful than BP so real BP is a much better and safer choice even for those. Some BP cartridge guns such as the Trapdoor rifles have been loaded and shot with smokeless loads for many years so even some of the older originals would be safe with the proper smokeless load, point being a low pressure smokeless load is often a better choice than any of the subs in cartridges due to the fact it can be loaded to BP pressures with none of the problems of obtaining it or the fouling and corrosion associated with either a sub or BP. If the goal is "for the BP experience" then sorry you just won't get that with a sub! The subs look, load, shoot and even smell different so they are neither like shooting smokeless or real BP.

There's nothing wrong with using a sub if that's all you can get. If you don't use a lot of black powder, and the real stuff has to be mail ordered (only reasonable if you order a few pounds to make up for the outrageous shipping), then that $20 can of Pyrodex from Walmart will do. Some of the subs like Triple 7 are more powerful than real black powder, some are about the same. You just have to take care as to which one you use in your particular gun and adjust accordingly.

I don't understand why people don't get that some people just prefer subs. There's nothing wrong with using black powder, smokeless, or subs. To each their own.

[rfd]

having used bp and subs (pyrodex and 777) for both cartridge rifles and muzzleloaders, if i had a choice (as understandably some folks might not) bp all the way. bp, particularly really good bp, burns cleaner with lots less fouling and is more consistent and that shows in the chronographed sd's. yep, the good holy black is just better ... for me, maybe not for you, it's all good, enjoy!

[oldred]

There's nothing wrong with using a sub if that's all you can get. If you don't use a lot of black powder, and the real stuff has to be mail ordered (only reasonable if you order a few pounds to make up for the outrageous shipping), then that $20 can of Pyrodex from Walmart will do. Some of the subs like Triple 7 are more powerful than real black powder, some are about the same. You just have to take care as to which one you use in your particular gun and adjust accordingly.

I don't understand why people don't get that some people just prefer subs. There's nothing wrong with using black powder, smokeless, or subs. To each their own.

You are totally missing my point, I understand that sometimes real BP may not be worth the trouble to get but what I was suggesting is that in most cases for a cartridge rifle a BP equivalent smokeless load may be a better choice. The point is that if you are going to shoot a sub why not just shoot a low pressure smokeless load as a sub? The BP subs are so different from the real thing that it's an almost totally different type of shooting than either BP or smokeless, as I said it looks, loads, shoots and even smells different so it's just simply not at all like shooting BP.

Of course I am not saying a person shouldn't use what ever they like, that's entirely up to the shooter, I was just pointing out that shooting a sub is NOT like shooting BP and neither is smokeless but smokeless doesn't have the fouling and corrosion problems of the subs, if you're not going to use BP then why bother with something else that's also completely different that's all I was saying.

[quickdraw66]

You are totally missing my point, I understand that sometimes real BP may not be worth the trouble to get but what I was suggesting is that in most cases for a cartridge rifle a BP equivalent smokeless load may be a better choice. The point is that if you are going to shoot a sub why not just shoot a low pressure smokeless load as a sub? The BP subs are so different from the real thing that it's an almost totally different type of shooting than either BP or smokeless, as I said it looks, loads, shoots and even smells different so it's just simply not at all like shooting BP.

I got the point you were making (you have made that point numerous times before), I'm saying that people have their reasons. You may think that subs and black powder are nothing alike, I'm sure many would be inclined to disagree. Its all about perspective. I'm sure you enjoy the historical aspect of it, which is why you care so much that the look and smell are the same. Some don't care that much about it. If it's similar and puts out a big cloud of smoke, they're happy. That's all there is to it.

[Avenger442]

So the answer to my question is that subs and smokeless (assuming correct pressure loads for the particular gun) can be used but for the authentic feel, look and smell use black powder. And cleaning of the gun may be more or less involved. I can understand that since I spent some time restoring cars. Authentic in some circles is considered the only way to go.

I'm considering learning how to make my own so I was just wondering if there was a reason not to use one or the other. I really had not considered using smokeless as a substitute. Can black powder be substituted for smokeless in some guns? Say a .44 special or maybe a .45 Colt.

Don't mean to take this away from original question of what to call it. I find that if I go to a Bass Pro Shop or one of the big box stores you are more likely to run into some one that does not understand. I'm lucky enough to have a local store, well about 50 miles away I live in the sticks, where almost everyone in the store hand loads, cast and/or shoots black powder and just about any firearm type. At any one time there are about four guys and the owner behind the counter. They are not just selling it but actually use the stuff they sell. While I have never done it, I think if you came into the store and asked the guys if they had real black powder and not a substitute they would know what you were talking about.

[lobowolf761]

The only place I have found any black powder is Bass Pro in Savannah, which is about 75 miles away. Not a big deal, as we are in Savannah regularly, but all they have is Goex. There is a Cabella's in Augusta, which about 100 miles away. Next time I am there, I will check with them. Small locally owned gun stores? Haven't found one that carries it yet.

The Bass Pro outside of Macon also carries Goes when they can get it. They told me it doesn't stay in the store very l9ng.

[lobowolf761]

So the answer to my question is that subs and smokeless (assuming correct pressure loads for the particular gun) can be used but for the authentic feel, look and smell use black powder. And cleaning of the gun may be more or less involved. I can understand that since I spent some time restoring cars. Authentic in some circles is considered the only way to go.

I'm considering learning how to make my own so I was just wondering if there was a reason not to use one or the other. I really had not considered using smokeless as a substitute. Can black powder be substituted for smokeless in some guns? Say a .44 special or maybe a .45 Colt.

Don't mean to take this away from original question of what to call it. I find that if I go to a Bass Pro Shop or one of the big box stores you are more likely to run into some one that does not understand. I'm lucky enough to have a local store, well about 50 miles away I live in the sticks, where almost everyone in the store hand loads, cast and/or shoots black powder and just about any firearm type. At any one time there are about four guys and the owner behind the counter. They are not just selling it but actually use the stuff they sell. While I have never done it, I think if you came into the store and asked the guys if they had real black powder and not a substitute they would know what you were talking about.

Yes you can use the Holy Black in 44 spec and 45lc. Lyman puts out a manual listing black powder load info for muzzle loaders and cartridge guns. Both 44 and 45 are listed.

[oldred]

I got the point you were making (you have made that point numerous times before), I'm saying that people have their reasons. You may think that subs and black powder are nothing alike, I'm sure many would be inclined to disagree. Its all about perspective. I'm sure you enjoy the historical aspect of it, which is why you care so much that the look and smell are the same. Some don't care that much about it. If it's similar and puts out a big cloud of smoke, they're happy. That's all there is to it.

I don't remember telling anyone not to use a sub? I simply asked what's the point?

Why is that some get so upset and defensive when SOMEONE ELSE is asked why they might choose a substitute powder instead of just using a smokeless load and avoid the hassles of the subs? If you want to pretend you're shooting BP fine I never suggested you or anyone else that they shouldn't and I have REPEATEDLY said in other posts a person should use what makes them happy! If I want to ask SOMEONE ELSE this question just to point out the options that they may, or may not have thought about then I feel I am doing nothing wrong! If it offends you that I discuss this with SOMEONE ELSE then I suggest you have the problem not me.

[Avenger442]

I haven't tried the Bass Pro near me for black powder. Its about 40 miles away. And they have higher prices. So I go another 10 miles for lower price and more educated staff for my reloading. They may have real black powder.

Re-read the above and it sounds like I don't go to Bass Pro to buy stuff. I have found that they may carry some things I can't find at my regular source for powder and equipment. I have found that if you can find a place to buy that has people that actually use what you are looking for you have a better chance. Some Bass Pro Shops could also have that too.

[oldred]

Not all that bad considering today's prices on most powders,

http://www.basspro.com/GOEX-Black-Po...0829053247144/

Pyrodex is a couple of dollars less and T7 is a buck or two more, but then the subs are probably a bit cheaper at WallyWorld.

[AllanD]

I've got powder I bought in 1989 in sealed cans, mostly Goex and simply wont touch any of the various substitutes.

Remember that Pyrodex was originally advertised as producing less fouling, but after seeing what others have gone through there is indeed less fouling, but that is both harder to remove and much more corrosive...

[milrifle]

Lobowolf,


Thanks. Yes, as a matter of fact, I bought a pound of Goex FF at the Macon Bass Pro just this past Sunday. We were passing thru that area, so I detoured. I keep hoping I can run across some other brands in a store one day, but not so far.

There is a SASS match in Griffin in a couple of weeks. Not sure yet, but we may go check that out. I've never seen one. I'm sure it is interesting and entertaining, and maybe there will be some powder vendors there.