non-toxic deer hunting bullets

[Whiterabbit]

Checked, I do have 140 grain 7mm E-tips. You can have 'em if you come to the SF bay area when you travel to the US, and the barnes you are looking at are the 140 grain 7mm TSX. Just a shot in the dark, I don;t know what TTSX you have over there.

Just an offer if you wanted to compare the E-tips to the barnes. I have the extras cause I tried both and like the Barnes better. Which is too bad because for me (usa internet price), the E-tips are much cheaper.

I guarantee you will not have an issue with TSA coming out of the USA. Yes they will stop you and you have to explain that "bullets" are not "ammunition". but they will let you into the secure area for sure.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am the author, Robert O. Burgess, M.D., of post # 58.

The topic of this thread, 'non-toxic deer hunting bullets', made me want to read it to see where it led and then came the reference to eagles dieing because they had eaten a meal that had been killed with a lead bullet, said Mr. Tomo. This lead myth came from Rachel Carlson's, "Silent Spring," about 1947, where she trashed DDT and that book caused DDT to be banned in the U.S. DDT kills eagles and thins falcons' eggs she said.

Now the politically correct want to ban all lead.

I thought this site was about cast boolits, lead, antimony, tin. Not toxic lead and eagles.

Reasons for being able or not being able to use them are surely of some relevance then. The effect of lead on the Californian condor is convincingly documented, with its being blamed for 23 deaths since 2009, from a population of 70 which doesn't breed until the ago of 6 or 8.

It is an exceptional bird. Whether projectile lead is a significant danger to eagles, Japanese or otherwise, depends on such factors of how much of their diet is carrion, compared with the condor's near-100%, and whether they can produce young before lead poisoning takes effect.

The effects of lead and DDT are quite separate issues, the main common factor being that both have been proven true, and substitutes could be used in both cases. Doing something because it is PC and not doing it because it is PC are just two sides of the same coin.

[tomo]

Checked, I do have 140 grain 7mm E-tips. You can have 'em if you come to the SF bay area when you travel to the US, and the barnes you are looking at are the 140 grain 7mm TSX. Just a shot in the dark, I don;t know what TTSX you have over there.

Just an offer if you wanted to compare the E-tips to the barnes. I have the extras cause I tried both and like the Barnes better. Which is too bad because for me (usa internet price), the E-tips are much cheaper.

I guarantee you will not have an issue with TSA coming out of the USA. Yes they will stop you and you have to explain that "bullets" are not "ammunition". but they will let you into the secure area for sure.

Thanks for great offering and your kindness, Whiterabbit.
But I have only .308 rifles not 7mm so far. I have been SF for sightseeing 20 years ago but I had no chance to visit there after that, even though
frequently I visit Tucson, New York, Seattle and Phoenix because of gem show my wife loves, my relatives, and the university I worked in past times.
I have a chance to get to gun shop like Cabela's at next visit (except in NY). And I will have non-toxic bullet seeking adventure. It must be fun.
I will buy them if just I need is talking to TSA and they let me go. Thanks for good information.

[Whiterabbit]

Yep, we're in different areas of the country. I travel to areas such as Boise Idaho and Portland Oregon (Yokkaichi and once to Aizu Wakamatsu and Tokushima too), and do exactly the same @ Cabelas from US sites.

First, I should say I don't know what will happen if you put them in checked luggage. It's legal and fine (in the US), but if you get a stupid bag checker who does not know "bullet" vs "ammunition", I don't know if they will make the mistake and think it is undeclared ammunition and confiscate it. In short, I only hand-carry bullets in my carry on luggage.

So what happens is this. I get flagged in the security gate every time. I guide them exactly to what they are looking for, telling them I know what they found. They find the box of bullets. I then tell them "that is not loaded ammunition", that they are "projectiles only, just like a fishing sinker. metal only"

One of two things happen. You get a TSA guy who knows what you are talking about then he lets you go. OR, he doesn't know what you are talking about and does one of two things. #1 he asks you to open the box to inspect, which is easy enough, then you get let go. #2, he is unsure so he calls the supervisor to escalate, you tell the supervisor the same thing (always the same line "this is not loaded ammunition, these are projectiles, they are just bits of metal, like fishing sinkers."). The supervisor will let you go.

All paths always lead to you getting on the plane with your bullets in your carry on bag. This is all just the American side. My worst case was a 45 minute delay in security, plan accordingly.

noone else on the American side needs to know what you have. Immigration, ticketing, etc, none of their business. It's just the security line that has to vet you.

[Whiterabbit]

Reasons for being able or not being able to use them are surely of some relevance then. The effect of lead on the Californian condor is convincingly documented, with its being blamed for 23 deaths since 2009, from a population of 70 which doesn't breed until the ago of 6 or 8.

It is an exceptional bird. Whether projectile lead is a significant danger to eagles, Japanese or otherwise, depends on such factors of how much of their diet is carrion, compared with the condor's near-100%, and whether they can produce young before lead poisoning takes effect.

The effects of lead and DDT are quite separate issues, the main common factor being that both have been proven true, and substitutes could be used in both cases. Doing something because it is PC and not doing it because it is PC are just two sides of the same coin.

Hunters object not THAT the condors are getting lead poisoned, they object to the assumption that they are getting poisoned from bullets. No research was performed to find root cause. Just a straight jump to conclusion. We also object to the idea that, since they are still getting poisoned, that the jump to conclusion is again that hunters are not complying with the law. Any technical industry would conclude that root cause was not addressed and start looking at other known sources of environmental lead.

In short, it's always our fault, guilty by association and without proof, combined with a legislature willing to play along.

[bobob]

I see that this site is made up of several lead banners bunches. And where better to infiltrate than in a cast boolit bunch.

The California Condor's problem is that it is in California.

All kinds of toxins are in California and that's why California banned lead bullets, semi-automatic rifles, if they are labeled 'assault' and the Constitution.

Your "science" is not fact, its putrid.

[Whiterabbit]

The science is fine, just incomplete. It's perfectly possible that other lead sources are the cause of the condors getting poisoned. Like I said, the question is not IF the condors are getting lead poisoned. It's determining the root cause. That has not been done.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

If I want to shoot something that I don't want to get toxic, I dip my bullets in mercurochrome.

[bobob]

We don't use mercurochrome up here in our mountains, Ole Joe Clarke, but some of the boys have been moonshinin' lead antitoxin up in the hollers.

They make the antitoxin into a paste and smear a glob of it into the holler of a holler point lead boolit and sell the boolits to squirrel hunters in California. Some of those California hunters don't shoot too good and some of the squirrels crawl off and die. The Condors then eat the leavins, lead, antitoxin and all and the Condors don't die.

It's a puzzlement. The scientists can't explain their findings, many of them being public school educated, so they just throw it out, squirrel carcass, antitoxin and all. Can't be messing up their boolit-ban agenda and that's a fact.

[Ole Joe Clarke]

They probably just use the mash that is left over, that way no product is wasted.

[Capt. Methane]

I just have to wonder how much lead is being left behind in how many critters are getting away from the hunters in CA that the dang vultures are getting sick from it...really?

Yeah, and vultures come down along the freeway and gobble up all of the wheel weights that fall off of cars too...



Here's a reality check about lead poisoning in humans. Since Condors and Eagles don't shoot and sweep the floors in indoor ranges and elemental lead from bullets passes through the digestive system...

http://chuckkleinauthor.com/Page.asp...-officers.html

just sayin'.

I know it doesn't change the laws but I suspect the lead Condors are picking up may have come from the Tetra Ethel Lead in auto fuel...

Oh, and who determined that the Condors died of lead poisoning and would I be wrong to be suspicious of their motives?

[Capt. Methane]

For the OP, since the rotometals lead free alloy had been covered, would it even be remotely practical to have one of the US outlets like Brownells or Midway ship you some of the lead free bullets?

[Duckiller]

Condors are lead intolerant. A deer shot with lead boolits will have enough lead left in internal organs to kill a condor. This was discussed by a Vet on this board several years ago. Initially Cal F&G (now F&W) asked hunters to bury internal organs when dressing animals in the field. A significant number of successful hunters were incapable of doing this. The next step was to exclude lead bullets from where condors were known to exist and surrounding areas. Then the Fish and Game Commission and the state legislature got involved and by 2019 we will be lead free while hunting. California hasn't had lead in its gas for a long time so that is not the source of the lead. Led ores do occur in nature and that is probably one source. Another problem is that the way condors live is causing their demise. Left to its own devices Condors would cease to exist soon. The people whose livelihood depends on keeping condors around don't want them to go away so they do everything they can do that doesn't offend rich people that have beach houses. Condors are scavengers. They would dearly love to eat dead whale or sea lions or seals. Rich bitches don't want these dead animals stinking up their houses so they are hauled out to sea and blown up. Rich bitches have more clout than hunters even rich hunters. I am going hunting in the condor zone this year. Will use $1.00 each Barnes bullets. #2 son is not doing to carry a rifle but use his Raging Bull. No 454 ammo but he will use 45 Colt ammo. $33.00 for 20 rounds. Neither of us expect to get a deer, just an excuse to wander around the back country.

[Bigslug]

Condors are lead intolerant. A deer shot with lead boolits will have enough lead left in internal organs to kill a condor. . .

Whether they're correct on the amount of lead poisoning required to kill a condor or not, wouldn't the easier fix be to simply design and hunt with bullets that don't come apart on impact and stand a better than even chance of exiting the animal? My father double-tapped his deer last year with a pair of .45 caliber Lyman #2 RCBS 405 grainers, and I can guarantee that there wasn't a crumb of lead left behind in that animal.

We have the expansion vs. meplat discussion often enough on this forum. Diameter is fine whether you get it by expansion or by starting bore size, but it will always be trumped by accuracy. This is why the African guides like their round-nose FMJ's - as long as you can count on the bullet reliably travelling THROUGH whatever you properly line it up with, you can count on the animal to reliably die. The condors get their yummy gut pile, the bullet travels on to lay on a hillside till the end of time, and we don't get our sport legislated out of existence.

[bobob]

The lead and gun banners need to get tougher condors and rats. But they have an agenda, ban hunting, lead, guns, boolits and the right to keep and bear arms.